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 Saint Stacey
   
| Anyone else notice the recent trend of selling horses and trailers by holding raffles? It's amazing how many people are doing this. Very few realize it's totally illegal inless you are a non profit. |
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 Heeler Hoarder
Posts: 2067
| Yep I'm just wondering what they will do to them? It will eventually have to be stopped therefore have consequences |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| I think it's absoultuly ridiculous and I could NEVER sell a horse to someone who just "won" them for x amount of money (usually between $30-$100 as I've seen) and not know where they're ending up. Didn't know it was illegal (anyone care to share why?) but no I definitly think it should not be a thing |
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 Northern Exposure
Posts: 3919
Location: Wasagaming, Manitoba, Canada | Yes. My fb is full of them. Seems crazy, waiting to see how they all play out. |
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 Don't Wanna Make This Awkward
Posts: 3106
Location: Texas | cheeka77 - 2016-04-28 10:25 PM I think it's absoultuly ridiculous and I could NEVER sell a horse to someone who just "won" them for x amount of money (usually between $30-$100 as I've seen) and not know where they're ending up. Didn't know it was illegal (anyone care to share why?) but no I definitly think it should not be a thing
I'm assuming it would fall under gambling...
Seems like a good way to move a horse quickly. I would never buy a horse from someone that didn't care where the horse went though. |
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Regular
Posts: 56
| There are a lot of people putting the draw on their personal Facebook page-- therefore only friends can buy spots. It sounds like you have to personally pick up the horse from owner anyway- so the owner would at least get to meet the lucky winner lol. |
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Saint Stacey
| cheeka77 - 2016-04-28 9:25 PM
I think it's absoultuly ridiculous and I could NEVER sell a horse to someone who just "won" them for x amount of money (usually between $30-$100 as I've seen) and not know where they're ending up. Didn't know it was illegal (anyone care to share why?) but no I definitly think it should not be a thing
It's considered unregulated gambling since it is a game of chance. Most states require licensing to hold raffles. Others only allow non profit organizations to hold raffles. Some people claim you can call it a "donation" and be safe. That really isn't the case. |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| I wouldn't buy one, nor sell one like this, but I don't really care what everybody else does. |
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Saint Stacey
| Griz - 2016-04-29 4:10 AM
I wouldn't buy one, nor sell one like this, but I don't really care what everybody else does.
I wouldn't buy a horse this way either. I do care though because with how out of control our government is anymore, this could make it a lot more difficult to sell horses in the future. I hope I'm wrong. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | SKM - 2016-04-29 5:26 AM Griz - 2016-04-29 4:10 AM I wouldn't buy one, nor sell one like this, but I don't really care what everybody else does. I wouldn't buy a horse this way either. I do care though because with how out of control our government is anymore, this could make it a lot more difficult to sell horses in the future. I hope I'm wrong.
Your not wrong SKM, we had a women doing this about 15 years ago in the small town of Hondo south of us. She was detained by the law for a bit. Heard it was the sale yard that turned her in... |
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 Expert
Posts: 2097
Location: Deep South | You can't advertise it as a "raffle" but you can advertise it as a "random drawing." Some states allow it, some do not. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 434
Location: Northwest Florida | People aren't realizing how easily these can be complete scams.
As a seller it seems genius if you don't care what happens to your horse. You don't have to worry about people trying it out, hauling it for a vet check, tire kickers, etc.
It's an EASY way for a crooked person to dump an injured horse. Who's going to pay for a vet check when you're spending $100 on a raffle ticket? Buyers think there's nothing to lose when in reality you're paying transportation costs, vet costs to find the undisclosed injury, etc.
It's also an EASY way to scam people. You could go take some pictures of your neighbor's horse and a pretty set of Reg papers and put it up for auction, 100 slots for $100 a piece. Create a fake facebook account and "buy" one of the slots with that account. Then say that account is the person who won the drawing, and you're now $10,000 richer off a horse you never owned in the first place.
I wouldn't have a problem if it were a legitimate business with a reputation at risk, who was licensed through their state to do this, had a list of happy customers, or even a non profit, and they had some sort of random draw method which held them accountable. But I am seeing a flood of people that no one knows raffling off horses. Why people are giving them the time of day is beyond me.
One last point I'll make is, who would want their good horse to go off to some person who bought a $100 ticket? He could be headed to the back yard of a trailer park in a chain link fence for all you know. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| I don't really think its a true scam at least not for some of the ppl doing these "raffles" or "drawings" and ppl are saying its an easy for to get rid of an outlaw or a problem horse but IMO your paying like $85 -$200 for a ticket and thats all you got in the horse. Sounds like a fun way to roll the dice....but i feel like its gonna turn into scam city really quick like... |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 434
Location: Northwest Florida | astreakinchic - 2016-04-29 1:52 PM
I don't really think its a true scam at least not for some of the ppl doing these "raffles" or "drawings" and ppl are saying its an easy for to get rid of an outlaw or a problem horse but IMO your paying like $85 -$200 for a ticket and thats all you got in the horse. Sounds like a fun way to roll the dice....but i feel like its gonna turn into scam city really quick like...
We all know the initial purchase price is NOT "all you've got in the horse". Transportation may be needed. Most of these people advertise that buyer pays for all health papers. If you do luck into a problem/injured horse you're looking at vet bills or even hospital bills.
To me though, it's just the principle of the thing. So you may not be paying a lot out of pocket for the ticket, but multiply your $85-$200 times 100 slots, and the seller is making out like a bandit on a horse that isn't worth that 9 times out of 10, because if it were, they would be looking to sell it to an individual.
I just have to wonder, when a seller is willing to take a chance on their horse going to God knows who... what's wrong with this horse. Most of us care a little about our good ones and want to put them in good, capable hands, not the hands of anyone that paypal'd over $100 on a whim.
We all know the dishonesty that plagues the horse the market, and this is just another avenue for it. ZERO buyer protection or seller accountability.
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| BigStarBound - 2016-04-29 3:51 PM
astreakinchic - 2016-04-29 1:52 PM
I don't really think its a true scam at least not for some of the ppl doing these "raffles" or "drawings" and ppl are saying its an easy for to get rid of an outlaw or a problem horse but IMO your paying like $85 -$200 for a ticket and thats all you got in the horse. Sounds like a fun way to roll the dice....but i feel like its gonna turn into scam city really quick like...
We all know the initial purchase price is NOT "all you've got in the horse". Transportation may be needed. Most of these people advertise that buyer pays for all health papers. If you do luck into a problem/injured horse you're looking at vet bills or even hospital bills.
To me though, it's just the principle of the thing. So you may not be paying a lot out of pocket for the ticket, but multiply your $85-$200 times 100 slots, and the seller is making out like a bandit on a horse that isn't worth that 9 times out of 10, because if it were, they would be looking to sell it to an individual.
I just have to wonder, when a seller is willing to take a chance on their horse going to God knows who... what's wrong with this horse. Most of us care a little about our good ones and want to put them in good, capable hands, not the hands of anyone that paypal'd over $100 on a whim.
We all know the dishonesty that plagues the horse the market, and this is just another avenue for it. ZERO buyer protection or seller accountability.
I feel like these are normally colts, broodmares, or babies. God help anyone that actually purchases an open horse on one of those lol |
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 Roan On The Range
Posts: 7889
Location: Stephenville, TX | This random draw raffle thing reminds me of this joke:
A city boy, Kenny, moved to the country and bought a donkey from an old farmer for $100. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day.
The next day the farmer drove up and said: "Sorry son, but I have some bad news. The donkey died."
Kenny replied, "Well then, just give me my money back."
The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."
Kenny said, "OK, then just unload the donkey."
The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?"
Kenny: "I'm going to raffle him off."
Farmer: "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!"
Kenny: "Sure I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he is dead."
A month later the farmer met up with Kenny and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?"
Kenny: "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at $2 a piece and made a profit of $998.00."
Farmer: "Didn't anyone complain?"
Kenny: "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his $2 back."
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 434
Location: Northwest Florida | Running Roan - 2016-04-29 3:15 PM
This random draw raffle thing reminds me of this joke:
A city boy, Kenny, moved to the country and bought a donkey from an old farmer for $100. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day. The next day the farmer drove up and said: "Sorry son, but I have some bad news. The donkey died." Kenny replied, "Well then, just give me my money back." The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already." Kenny said, "OK, then just unload the donkey." The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?" Kenny: "I'm going to raffle him off." Farmer: "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!" Kenny: "Sure I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he is dead." A month later the farmer met up with Kenny and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?" Kenny: "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at $2 a piece and made a profit of $998.00." Farmer: "Didn't anyone complain?" Kenny: "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his $2 back."
Exactly!!! There's a REASON it is illegal for just anyone to hold a raffle.
Edited by BigStarBound 2016-04-29 3:28 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1395
Location: Missouri | BigStarBound - 2016-04-29 9:31 AM
People aren't realizing how easily these can be complete scams.
As a seller it seems genius if you don't care what happens to your horse. You don't have to worry about people trying it out, hauling it for a vet check, tire kickers, etc.
It's an EASY way for a crooked person to dump an injured horse. Who's going to pay for a vet check when you're spending $100 on a raffle ticket? Buyers think there's nothing to lose when in reality you're paying transportation costs, vet costs to find the undisclosed injury, etc.
It's also an EASY way to scam people. You could go take some pictures of your neighbor's horse and a pretty set of Reg papers and put it up for auction, 100 slots for $100 a piece. Create a fake facebook account and "buy" one of the slots with that account. Then say that account is the person who won the drawing, and you're now $10,000 richer off a horse you never owned in the first place.
I wouldn't have a problem if it were a legitimate business with a reputation at risk, who was licensed through their state to do this, had a list of happy customers, or even a non profit, and they had some sort of random draw method which held them accountable. But I am seeing a flood of people that no one knows raffling off horses. Why people are giving them the time of day is beyond me.
One last point I'll make is, who would want their good horse to go off to some person who bought a $100 ticket? He could be headed to the back yard of a trailer park in a chain link fence for all you know.
Aside from the fact that I'd never be willing to sell my horse to just anybody for $100, anybody can scrounge up $100 for a horse but Hod only knows the kind of care they could provide for it, and I'd never enter one of these myself.....I never even considered it may be a way for people to scan others. But you're right. It would be all too easy for someone to get away with that! |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 383
Location: Sweet Home Alabama | I'd only buy a ticket from someone who I respected as a rider/trainer. And I would never consider this process to sell one of mine. |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | In the past, I have seen quite a few 4-H groups do this. It is usually a weanling or yearling donated by a sponsor. It makes money for the groups and usually ends up being a pretty nice project horse for one of the members. |
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Saint Stacey
| NJJ - 2016-04-29 4:20 PM
In the past, I have seen quite a few 4-H groups do this. It is usually a weanling or yearling donated by a sponsor. It makes money for the groups and usually ends up being a pretty nice project horse for one of the members.
That's because 4H is a group and non profit. Most states allow non profits to have raffles. An individual having a raffle is illegal in most states. |
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Regular
Posts: 67
Location: TN | Read one post on Facebook that those sites are no longer allowing horses therefore people are now posting them on their page and to make it legal they giving gift certicates. |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | I find it amazing that some are known trainers and when it is pointed out to them, they block you and send you nasty messages. And their answer is - oh well, I will not get caught. |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | SKM - 2016-04-28 8:47 PM Anyone else notice the recent trend of selling horses and trailers by holding raffles? It's amazing how many people are doing this. Very few realize it's totally illegal inless you are a non profit.
I posted about this last week. Mostly I just thought it was weird. And then did some mental math on one. A girl was going to get $14,000 for a grade mare with her $100 tickets. Never thought I'd the legal side of it |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | If it is illegal, the "Mods" need to take a look at the ad from Florida....it is a "raffle"!
Wonders Firewater ***Random Draw for a $10,000 Filly*** $100 a spot!
Edited by NJJ 2016-04-30 6:23 PM
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Saint Stacey
| Yep...illegal in FL.
fundraising is critical to the success of charities and other nonprofits. Games of chance, such as lotteries and raffles, can be an easy way to entice potential donors by offering the prospect of winning a prize. However, most lotteries and raffles are considered gambling and are illegal in Florida. But, the state has carved out an exception for qualifying nonprofits, provided specific rules are followed and no fees are required to participate. Even with this exception, however, nonprofit organizations must still comply with all state and federal laws governing the solicitation of funds. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I was thinking all raffles were illegal, unless its something like 4-H or FFA or any non profit groups, so how in the heck do these people get away doing raffles for their own personal use? |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | The AD here has been removed! I wonder if the people who already paid will get their money back from the seller?
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Expert
Posts: 1395
Location: Missouri | NJJ - 2016-05-01 8:22 AM
The AD here has been removed! I wonder if the people who already paid will get their money back from the seller?
I thought the ad said (and I could totally be wrong, I didn't pay too much attention) that $ would be transferred via PayPal once all spots were filled.....? So hopefully no one actually paid anything yet.  |
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | MOGirl07 - 2016-05-01 8:52 AM NJJ - 2016-05-01 8:22 AM The AD here has been removed! I wonder if the people who already paid will get their money back from the seller?
I thought the ad said (and I could totally be wrong, I didn't pay too much attention ) that $ would be transferred via PayPal once all spots were filled.....? So hopefully no one actually paid anything yet.
I think I read that also. |
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Tell It Like It Is
Posts: 22025
Location: Wyoming | http://www.ennsandarcher.com/s_basics.html
The basics on sweepstakes and contests. |
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Saint Stacey
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These aren't Sweepstakes, they are raffles. Not one of the people doing these raffles posts rules. Nor is there no purchase necessary. |
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Tell It Like It Is
Posts: 22025
Location: Wyoming | SKM - 2016-05-01 10:55 AM These aren't Sweepstakes, they are raffles. Not one of the people doing these raffles posts rules. Nor is there no purchase necessary.
This article also has information about random drawings. |
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Saint Stacey
| realitycheck - 2016-05-01 12:54 PM
SKM - 2016-05-01 10:55 AM These aren't Sweepstakes, they are raffles. Not one of the people doing these raffles posts rules. Nor is there no purchase necessary.
The page on the link has Sweepstakes and Skill Drawings. In the skill drawing, if you eliminate the skill, it isn't a skill drawing. If you eliminate the skill part and hold a nation wide drawing, it's illegal because of states like CO, NE, SD etc since they don't allow it. Also the drawings with no skill set aren't allowed to have an entry fee. They also have to have rules posted just like a Sweepstakes. Or that's what I got out of the link at least. |
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Tell It Like It Is
Posts: 22025
Location: Wyoming | SKM - 2016-05-01 12:20 PM
realitycheck - 2016-05-01 12:54 PM
SKM - 2016-05-01 10:55 AM These aren't Sweepstakes, they are raffles. Not one of the people doing these raffles posts rules. Nor is there no purchase necessary.
The page on the link has Sweepstakes and Skill Drawings. In the skill drawing, if you eliminate the skill, it isn't a skill drawing. If you eliminate the skill part and hold a nation wide drawing, it's illegal because of states like CO, NE, SD etc since they don't allow it. Also the drawings with no skill set aren't allowed to have an entry fee. They also have to have rules posted just like a Sweepstakes. Or that's what I got out of the link at least.
I have been reading a lot on this type of thing. There is a lot to it and a lot of rules and laws that pertain to this. I just thought the article made it easier to read. One of the reasons I posted the link is because someone may call it a sweepstakes or a contest, but it is really a lottery. (random drawing)
You are correct. ( at least from what I have been reading) These random drawings are lotteries. Lotteries are highly regulated.
It doesn't matter if it's animals, widgets or gadgets or digital content.
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | realitycheck - 2016-05-01 1:54 PM SKM - 2016-05-01 10:55 AM These aren't Sweepstakes, they are raffles. Not one of the people doing these raffles posts rules. Nor is there no purchase necessary.
These horse "raffles" do not fall under any category in that article because they REQUIRE "consideration".......that makes them an illegal lottery in most states unless they are registered, etc by the state. Note this statement in the very first paragraph........this applies to every "random drawing".
Thus, the primary means of preventing a sweepstakes promotion from being considered an illegal lottery is the elimination of the element of consideration. |
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Tell It Like It Is
Posts: 22025
Location: Wyoming | Maybe this will help.
A lottery is a prize drawing where people must pay money to buy a chance (a spot) to win something. Lotteries are highly regulated.
A lottery has three things:
1. Prize
2. Chance
3. Consideration - Something of value. Usually money.
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | realitycheck - 2016-05-01 2:33 PM Maybe this will help.
A lottery is a prize drawing where people must pay money to buy a chance (a spot) to win something. Lotteries are highly regulated.
A lottery has three things:
1. Prize
2. Chance
3. Consideration - Something of value. Usually money.
If that prize is a horse, tack, trailer, etc....in most states, no matter WHAT you call it....it is considered a "lottery".....and illegal unless it follows the rules of the state. |
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Tell It Like It Is
Posts: 22025
Location: Wyoming | And then there are the tax implications |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 966
Location: Where the rodeo road leads me | n s tyle= s"font-family:Arial; font-size:12px; color:#000000"> So what if every spot purchased received something like a ball cap or something that they were actually buying and then one random person would receive a "FREE" horse? I have seen that grade Mare that the drawing was done on and she was actually really nice and has been listed for 15000. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | 2much4U2Handle - 2016-05-01 6:24 PM n s tyle= s"font-family:Arial; font-size:12px; color:#000000"> So what if every spot purchased received something like a ball cap or something that they were actually buying and then one random person would receive a "FREE" horse? I have seen that grade Mare that the drawing was done on and she was actually really nice and has been listed for 15000.
What grade mare I didnt see that one was she on this site? And was it 15000 or 1500? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 966
Location: Where the rodeo road leads me | She was on facebook on different ads for 15k |
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 Expert
Posts: 1430
Location: Montana | What ever happened to getting them ready, taking photos, and running ads? Sure it is a frustrating process but you have to at least try to find the right person for a horse before you sell. Sometimes you hit the jackpot and sometimes you don't. But you have to try!
That reminds me, folks. Remember to google people before you sell. Just sayin.  |
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| Got a local gal selling ticket in 50-50 drawing to raise money for her to go to World.
Edited by MO gal 2016-05-02 7:47 PM
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Saint Stacey
| Bump |
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Latest selling trend