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| Gonna keep it simple and sweet!
Bought a gelding from a lady that said she had his hocks injected TWICE a year, i thought that was a bit much.. when i bought him, i did have him vet checked and i did use her vet (i do personally know this woman i bought another horse from her years ago and loved her) and he did say he injected him, he also said he just done his teeth recently. so after i bought him i brought him home and had my dentist come out and check teeth for other horses os had her look at him too, she said no his teeth had not been done in a long time, he also had ulcers on his gums and lots of cuts to the tongue. So.. had my vet come out and he said he had very clean hocks and stifles and didn't know why he would need injections. well he's been running a little off here lately and i just checked and now would be the time to have him injected again prior to what his old vet said, my next question is... Would it hurt to have him injected anyways? I made another appointment with my vet this week to come check him out but was just wondering
Edited by Barrelhorsehelp1 2016-05-08 5:36 PM
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
 
Location: Arkansas | Bump |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I just had my horse's right hock xrayed after the lameness locater identified undetermined mild lameness. The xrays showed a very small bone spur on the back of his hock. My vet said he had a great hock joint, plenty of space between the joints. He was surprised because this horse is 13 years old. So, long story short, he did not want to inject because he said the joint is made to have so much space between bones and since he has good spacing, he felt the injections would cause more harm than good. Instead, I am giving him Adequan and it is amazing. I thought he just wasn't able to really reach up and under with his hind legs, but ever since the Adequan and Cur Ost Pure, he is really reaching under and over with very light cues. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | Personally, I wouldn't.
I know that sometimes it can be very difficult to figure out what is wrong with a horse when they feel a little "off" but if the vet doesn't see a need for injections in the hocks or stifles, then I would not do them.
Did your vet do a full lameness exam?
Has a chiro checked your horse?
What exactly do you mean when you say the horse is "running a little off"?
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 Scorpions R Us
Posts: 9586
Location: So. Cali. | My gelding who has navicular had to have his hocks done every 6 months when I was running him. You knew when 6 months was coming close. Maybe you need to double check that there isn't an underlining issue elsewhere that the hock injections are 'helping'.
Edited by Three*C*Champs 2016-05-09 12:03 PM
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 Tough Patooty
Posts: 2615
Location: Sperry, OK | "CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Edited by ACEINTHEHOLE 2016-05-09 12:15 PM
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| please let me ad, this gelding is SEVEN YEARS OLD!!! not 10, 13 or 20... and may i ad he's not even finished, he was a one horse owner until i bought him and she never really hauled him so he hasn't had his legs ran off. Pervious owner is the type though if something isn't correct (training wise) she'll insist it being a pain thing and inject something. I used her vet, her vet is the one who said he needed the injections twice a year, when i brought him home i had my vet check him over again, and he said he def DOESNT need injections that he had some of the cleanest stifles and hocks he'd seen... could that be from the old vet injecting him so much??
And by "off" i mean acting and riding funny.. still working the same as far as his run goes, but warming up he's kicking out, swishing his tail, stopping and throwing his head up like something is def bothering him. Ive known this horse all my life so i can say i know him and lately the way he's been acting is not him.. all the sudden he's spooky, kicks out and stomps at the trailer just out of the ordinary.. he's normally a very laid back guy.. lately not so much like he is nervous.. i did yesterday evening clean his sheath which did have a butter bean sized bean maybe that could be it. I'm not sure. vet will be out this week.
He was fully vetted by both vets, normal chiro, normal teeth, saddle fits him as far as i can tell (tammy fisher treeless) bit is fine. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | Barrelhorsehelp1 - 2016-05-09 12:41 PM please let me ad, this gelding is SEVEN YEARS OLD!!! not 10, 13 or 20... and may i ad he's not even finished, he was a one horse owner until i bought him and she never really hauled him so he hasn't had his legs ran off. Pervious owner is the type though if something isn't correct (training wise) she'll insist it being a pain thing and inject something. I used her vet, her vet is the one who said he needed the injections twice a year, when i brought him home i had my vet check him over again, and he said he def DOESNT need injections that he had some of the cleanest stifles and hocks he'd seen... could that be from the old vet injecting him so much?? And by "off" i mean acting and riding funny.. still working the same as far as his run goes, but warming up he's kicking out, swishing his tail, stopping and throwing his head up like something is def bothering him. Ive known this horse all my life so i can say i know him and lately the way he's been acting is not him.. all the sudden he's spooky, kicks out and stomps at the trailer just out of the ordinary.. he's normally a very laid back guy.. lately not so much like he is nervous.. i did yesterday evening clean his sheath which did have a butter bean sized bean maybe that could be it. I'm not sure. vet will be out this week. He was fully vetted by both vets, normal chiro, normal teeth, saddle fits him as far as i can tell (tammy fisher treeless) bit is fine.
Any chance of ulcers?
Could it be that you are "making him work" more than the old owner, and he's just having a little tantrum about it? Could just be behavioral too.
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | What type of cinch and pad are you using? I have a gelding that is very sensitive if not useing the right pad and cinch, hes a sissy, lol.. |
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| r_beau - 2016-05-09 12:53 PM
Barrelhorsehelp1 - 2016-05-09 12:41 PM please let me ad, this gelding is SEVEN YEARS OLD!!! not 10, 13 or 20... and may i ad he's not even finished, he was a one horse owner until i bought him and she never really hauled him so he hasn't had his legs ran off. Pervious owner is the type though if something isn't correct (training wise) she'll insist it being a pain thing and inject something. I used her vet, her vet is the one who said he needed the injections twice a year, when i brought him home i had my vet check him over again, and he said he def DOESNT need injections that he had some of the cleanest stifles and hocks he'd seen... could that be from the old vet injecting him so much?? And by "off" i mean acting and riding funny.. still working the same as far as his run goes, but warming up he's kicking out, swishing his tail, stopping and throwing his head up like something is def bothering him. Ive known this horse all my life so i can say i know him and lately the way he's been acting is not him.. all the sudden he's spooky, kicks out and stomps at the trailer just out of the ordinary.. he's normally a very laid back guy.. lately not so much like he is nervous.. i did yesterday evening clean his sheath which did have a butter bean sized bean maybe that could be it. I'm not sure. vet will be out this week. He was fully vetted by both vets, normal chiro, normal teeth, saddle fits him as far as i can tell (tammy fisher treeless) bit is fine.
Any chance of ulcers?
Could it be that you are "making him work" more than the old owner, and he's just having a little tantrum about it? Could just be behavioral too.
ive also considered this, i personally don't think its ulcers. i had a very very prone to ulcer gliding not to long ago and he isn't showing any of the signs, he's fed pro force fiber and alfalfa hay, with U-gaurd as a preventative. Im stumped because he is always such a good boy but the last 3 times I've hauled him not so much. |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | Did you get xrays done. .....m |
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| also, using tammy fisher treeless with a 5 Star pad the thinner one. but thinking about buying a CSI pad (i was told to use thinner pads with treeless saddles. vet will be out wed. |
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | I choose to avoid invading a joint at all cost simply due to the risk of contamination. I do know and understand that hundreds of joint injections are done daily with no issue, however there is always a chance of infection any time the joint capsule is punctured no matter how clean and careful a vet is. The only time I would inject is if it were truly a last resort.
I, and others here, have had very good luck with the Cur-OST products in managing the inflammation in the body that causes pain and joint deterioration. Granted, it will not reverse the damage that has been done, but it will absolutley reduce the pain and by managing the inflammation, it will help slow the progression of further damage. http://www.nouvelleresearch.com/index.php/articles/390-joint-dysfunction-are-injections-the-only-solution |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | ACEINTHEHOLE - 2016-05-09 12:13 PM
"CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Yup. My filly has clean looking hocks. Xrays are also very clean. She had gotten bad enough inflammation that when we did inject with IRAP the vets hand was full of bloody fluid. We put her on rest 6 months and a regular schedule with the IRAP and occasional steroid injections. If we are not staying on top of it her joint fluid reflects this. Probably need to xray again just in case but she has been xrayed once to twice a year for the last three. Still clean. You can't always 'see' it. It may be soft tissue issues that won't show up to the eye or on xray.
Edited by oija 2016-05-09 1:41 PM
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| Herbie - 2016-05-09 1:36 PM
I choose to avoid invading a joint at all cost simply due to the risk of contamination. I do know and understand that hundreds of joint injections are done daily with no issue, however there is always a chance of infection any time the joint capsule is punctured no matter how clean and careful a vet is. The only time I would inject is if it were truly a last resort.
I, and others here, have had very good luck with the Cur-OST products in managing the inflammation in the body that causes pain and joint deterioration. Granted, it will not reverse the damage that has been done, but it will absolutley reduce the pain and by managing the inflammation, it will help slow the progression of further damage. http://www.nouvelleresearch.com/index.php/articles/390-joint-dysfunction-are-injections-the-only-solution
what exactly do you use? i just read the article also but i seen they had lot of different products. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| Don't inject, especially if the joints are clean. Find another alternative such as curost, pentosan, previcox . Injections are detrimental in the long run to the a joint anyway but studies are now showing that the deteriorating effects are higher for when a healthy joint is injected vs one that has arthritic changes. I would look at injections to be my very very last option on a 7 year old, especially every 6mo. I was cautioned by my vet regarding my 16 year old. She's had her knee injected every year for only the past 3 years. He said there will come a time when those injections will become less effective and eventually showing long term degradation on the joint. |
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| oija - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
ACEINTHEHOLE - 2016-05-09 12:13 PM
"CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Yup. My filly has clean looking hocks. Xrays are also very clean. She had gotten bad enough inflammation that when we did inject with IRAP the vets hand was full of bloody fluid. We put her on rest 6 months and a regular schedule with the IRAP and occasional steroid injections. If we are not staying on top of it her joint fluid reflects this. Probably need to xray again just in case but she has been xrayed once to twice a year for the last three. Still clean. You can't always 'see' it. It may be soft tissue issues that won't show up to the eye or on xray.
So how exactly did you find the problem? even if your x rays were clean? what should i mention to my vet when he comes wed? i had him vetted in january 24th.. so its only been a couple months. |
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | Barrelhorsehelp1 - 2016-05-09 1:46 PM
oija - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
ACEINTHEHOLE - 2016-05-09 12:13 PM
"CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Yup. My filly has clean looking hocks. Xrays are also very clean. She had gotten bad enough inflammation that when we did inject with IRAP the vets hand was full of bloody fluid. We put her on rest 6 months and a regular schedule with the IRAP and occasional steroid injections. If we are not staying on top of it her joint fluid reflects this. Probably need to xray again just in case but she has been xrayed once to twice a year for the last three. Still clean. You can't always 'see' it. It may be soft tissue issues that won't show up to the eye or on xray.
So how exactly did you find the problem? even if your x rays were clean? what should i mention to my vet when he comes wed? i had him vetted in january 24th.. so its only been a couple months.
My trainer is amazing, does a lot of vet tech training too. Kept telling me she was sore and the symptoms. She got her injected while she was there and said it was 'rusty.' Injections only lasted a month. So we decided to do something more conservative that DOESN'T destroy the cartilage but is pretty expensive, thus the IRAP. When we went to inject her (it had been about 3 months or so since her first set), the vet couldn't believe how bloody it was. He did a lameness exam on her and xrays and said she was slightly sore but not horrible, xrays were clean and normal. Then went to inject the IRAP and it was awful looking in there. Even he was surprised by the color. We are trying to keep her on regular IRAP, Adequan, rest when needed and ice. We use some alternative therapies too. When she went to have more IRAP in March she was completely clear again. Let me just say I have never even injected until this mare AND I AM SO GLAD I LISTENED TO MY TRAINER. I cannot imagine how sore she was. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I know 2 people that ended their horse's careers early by using injecting hocks as maintenance. One horse got a sceptic joint and the other they could no longer get a needle into the joint. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| oija - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
ACEINTHEHOLE - 2016-05-09 12:13 PM
"CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Yup. My filly has clean looking hocks. Xrays are also very clean. She had gotten bad enough inflammation that when we did inject with IRAP the vets hand was full of bloody fluid. We put her on rest 6 months and a regular schedule with the IRAP and occasional steroid injections. If we are not staying on top of it her joint fluid reflects this. Probably need to xray again just in case but she has been xrayed once to twice a year for the last three. Still clean. You can't always 'see' it. It may be soft tissue issues that won't show up to the eye or on xray.
What causes the bloody fluid? Is the soft tissue inflammation a cause or an indication of some other underlying cause? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 950
Location: MO | I would def check ulcers like above poster said. They can really sour one's attitude from a nice laid back easy going horse to an uncomfortable monster. Mine did the same thing you were describing and that was what was going on. I sold him to a girl that put him through a month of crap (to say it nicely) and when a new lady bought him, had him checked, treated him for ulcers and had him chiro's... completly new horse.
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Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | GLP - 2016-05-09 2:13 PM
oija - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
ACEINTHEHOLE - 2016-05-09 12:13 PM
"CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Yup. My filly has clean looking hocks. Xrays are also very clean. She had gotten bad enough inflammation that when we did inject with IRAP the vets hand was full of bloody fluid. We put her on rest 6 months and a regular schedule with the IRAP and occasional steroid injections. If we are not staying on top of it her joint fluid reflects this. Probably need to xray again just in case but she has been xrayed once to twice a year for the last three. Still clean. You can't always 'see' it. It may be soft tissue issues that won't show up to the eye or on xray.
What causes the bloody fluid? Is the soft tissue inflammation a cause or an indication of some other underlying cause?
It has got to be something soft tissue or maybe cartilage related that xrays, flexion tests, and just looking at them does not show. Maybe something related to growing pains that aren't related to her growth plates. They are closed. My trainer says she is much more supple with the injections. I am glad that she is a trooper and will even work through pain. When we think its bad enough, she gets rest, even if she isn't limping. We use a multiprong approach too. She even has a magnetic blanket and I have tried to keep her feed from having anything that would contribute to inflammation.
ETA: she has never limped. She has been weaker in the hind, letting her butt get out from under her, etc. But never limped. We try to stay on top of it better than that.
And my husband and I have had one with a hock infection, not from injections but a fracture. We do know what the infection looks like and its long term effects. That horse will always be a pasture ornament. We are lucky he even lived. But I am not going to let my filly bleed into her hocks when I can make her comfortable. I just try to be as conservative as I can.
Edited by oija 2016-05-09 2:37 PM
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| oija - 2016-05-09 2:35 PM
GLP - 2016-05-09 2:13 PM
oija - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
ACEINTHEHOLE - 2016-05-09 12:13 PM
"CLEAN" does not mean pain free!!!! Just because a horse xrays clean, does not mean they don't get sore. Honestly, 2 times a year is pretty common for horses that run a moderate to heavy schedule.
Yup. My filly has clean looking hocks. Xrays are also very clean. She had gotten bad enough inflammation that when we did inject with IRAP the vets hand was full of bloody fluid. We put her on rest 6 months and a regular schedule with the IRAP and occasional steroid injections. If we are not staying on top of it her joint fluid reflects this. Probably need to xray again just in case but she has been xrayed once to twice a year for the last three. Still clean. You can't always 'see' it. It may be soft tissue issues that won't show up to the eye or on xray.
What causes the bloody fluid? Is the soft tissue inflammation a cause or an indication of some other underlying cause?
It has got to be something soft tissue or maybe cartilage related that xrays, flexion tests, and just looking at them does not show. Maybe something related to growing pains that aren't related to her growth plates. They are closed. My trainer says she is much more supple with the injections. I am glad that she is a trooper and will even work through pain. When we think its bad enough, she gets rest, even if she isn't limping. We use a multiprong approach too. She even has a magnetic blanket and I have tried to keep her feed from having anything that would contribute to inflammation.
ETA: she has never limped. She has been weaker in the hind, letting her butt get out from under her, etc. But never limped. We try to stay on top of it better than that.
And my husband and I have had one with a hock infection, not from injections but a fracture. We do know what the infection looks like and its long term effects. That horse will always be a pasture ornament. We are lucky he even lived. But I am not going to let my filly bleed into her hocks when I can make her comfortable. I just try to be as conservative as I can.
I won't ride my horse if he is in pain either. I am thankful Adequan and Cur Ost Pure have taken care of his discomfort/pain. Joints are a tricky problem. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2674
Location: Silver Lake, MN | Has anything changed with his feed? Does he have access to hay 24/7? Horses produce acid all the time, which you may already know. Due to this unless on forage 24/7 they are very prone to ulcers and horses all react differently. I would look back and see what changes have been made with the horse since you brought him home. I also feed an all natural diet of oats, flax and Cur-Ost. My horses have grass hay 24/7 and I also supplement with alfalfa when working them. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I would be doing flexion tests, then a nerve block and identify where the problem is. Then if X-rays have already been done, I would ultrasound to rule out soft tissue.
There would be so many problems.
Contracted heels, too small of shoes
Front end problems, navicular, arthritis can make them off in the hind end
Have you had chiro?
Kissing spine
sI joint
I have done injections as a preventative thing, not all injections are bad, it all depends on what you inject.
Previcoxx there are long term adverse effects, as it is a no steroidal ant inflammatory, it will mask problems.
I would be looking at pentospan, glucosamine IV, polyglycan |
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injection a horse that may not need injections