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| I was having a discussion with a friend about this and would like some outside opinions... What's the absolute youngest you'd breed a filly? And your reasons too please. Thanks! |
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 Bulls Eye
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Location: Oklahoma | Zipping up my flame suit. I bred my mare as a 2 year old last year. She foaled a healthy filly this year at 3. It wasn't ideal, but the way we were set up I really had no choice. I put her out with our gelding who mounted her and ran her through the fence. Her two pasture mates were out with our stallion. After a discussion with our vet over her size, maturity, etc. we made the call to go ahead and put her back out with her pasture mates and our stallion and just see what happened. She had a text book delivery and pregnancy. She's big... pushing 15.3 and it didn't seem to hurt her. We will not be breeding her again. She will be broke under saddle this fall once her baby is weaned and my baby is born. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 324
| Here's why I'm asking-- My friend has a 2 year old filly that will probably never be sound for riding. She's considering breeding her as a 3 year old (foal at 4). The filly stands 14.3hh now and and should mature 15/15.1hh. She's lean like her mama so there's no telling if she'll be all that thick by the time she's 3, but she's fairly solid as is. Opinions? |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | **Cowgirl Up** - 2016-05-09 11:49 AM Here's why I'm asking-- My friend has a 2 year old filly that will probably never be sound for riding. She's considering breeding her as a 3 year old (foal at 4). The filly stands 14.3hh now and and should mature 15/15.1hh. She's lean like her mama so there's no telling if she'll be all that thick by the time she's 3, but she's fairly solid as is. Opinions?
Why is she not sound ???? |
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Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | Mighty Broke - 2016-05-09 10:51 AM
**Cowgirl Up** - 2016-05-09 11:49 AM Here's why I'm asking-- My friend has a 2 year old filly that will probably never be sound for riding. She's considering breeding her as a 3 year old (foal at 4). The filly stands 14.3hh now and and should mature 15/15.1hh. She's lean like her mama so there's no telling if she'll be all that thick by the time she's 3, but she's fairly solid as is. Opinions?
Why is she not sound ????
I agree with Mightybroke's question. Is it hereditary unsoundness or is it caused by injury? There is definitely a lot to factor in. Many thoroughbreds are bred at 3 and have their first foal at 4. |
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 Money Eating Baggage Owner
Posts: 9586
Location: Phoenix | TwistedK - 2016-05-09 7:18 AM Zipping up my flame suit. I bred my mare as a 2 year old last year. She foaled a healthy filly this year at 3. It wasn't ideal, but the way we were set up I really had no choice. I put her out with our gelding who mounted her and ran her through the fence. Her two pasture mates were out with our stallion. After a discussion with our vet over her size, maturity, etc. we made the call to go ahead and put her back out with her pasture mates and our stallion and just see what happened. She had a text book delivery and pregnancy. She's big... pushing 15.3 and it didn't seem to hurt her. We will not be breeding her again. She will be broke under saddle this fall once her baby is weaned and my baby is born.
We had one get accidentally bred at 2 also and she was fine. |
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Extreme Veteran
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| Her lameness is due to injury as a foal. Not hereditary. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I would consider AI over live cover and a smaller stud if she's not all that big, but I think you'd be okay. |
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Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | My mare and her filly are in my avatar picture. I would have your friend talk to a repro vet about the mare first. |
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  The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | Depends on the individual. I have a 2yo that I would NEVER even consider breeding. She is very immature looking and acting. (Reminds me of a yearling. She is also a June foal so not even 24 months old yet.)
Personally, I wouldn't breed one younger than 3yo.That said, I have had 2 fillies that foaled at 3 (bred by other people) and both did fine. They were both also race bred, which tend to be early maturers.
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | 4...imo.....m |
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 Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | RacingQH - 2016-05-09 10:23 AM
Depends on the individual. I have a 2yo that I would NEVER even consider breeding. She is very immature looking and acting. (Reminds me of a yearling. She is also a June foal so not even 24 months old yet.)
Personally, I wouldn't breed one younger than 3yo.That said, I have had 2 fillies that foaled at 3 (bred by other people) and both did fine. They were both also race bred, which tend to be early maturers.
Ditto ^^^
I've bred a couple of fillies but not before they were 3. When it's my choice I wait until they are 3. But if the filly is well taken care of and well fed, it probably won't hurt anything. But not to a stallion that sires large babies. |
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Location: Deep South | **Cowgirl Up** - 2016-05-09 10:49 AM
Here's why I'm asking-- My friend has a 2 year old filly that will probably never be sound for riding. She's considering breeding her as a 3 year old (foal at 4). The filly stands 14.3hh now and and should mature 15/15.1hh. She's lean like her mama so there's no telling if she'll be all that thick by the time she's 3, but she's fairly solid as is. Opinions?
We bought a a 4yo filly once that had a weanling by her side when we went to try her out. Stud got out while owners were out of town and bred a few mares.
So she was bred at 3, foaled as an early 4yo. Like your friend is thinking of doing. She was perfectly fine. Went on to have a long and successful barrel career afterwards.
She was an average size mare. 15.0-15.1hh. |
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 On the Countdown
Posts: 2934
Location: Texas | I sold a 2 year old that was not sound for riding due to some cartlidge damage and could possibly be rode later as a 3 or 4 year old per vet. The people bred her to DFP, and never registered the baby... The mare was bred nicely, but not something I would have crossed her on. I got a email later on asking if she was able to be rode that they wanted to ride her! UMMM no not if you bred her. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | 3 to 4 years, no younger then 3. To me a 24 month old filly is still a baby.
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2016-05-09 2:26 PM
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Regular
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| We have a cutting mare that wasn't ever going to be broke (due to an injury) and bred her at 3. She was AI and foaled as a 4y/o with no issues. She just had her 3rd foal and hasn't ever had any trouble. I would definitely assess the situation...projected foal size vs. the mare's size etc... but this particular mare didn't have any issues.
Edited by Lph88311 2016-05-09 2:31 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
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| Bred my injured 3 year old (not heridetary) AI while she healed and she was 15.2 and big so I knew she'd be big enough. She foaled just after turning 4 and is a great mom, no complications, and will be broke out this year |
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Location: Montana | I read an article years ago by a really good reproductive specialist. Horses were selling well and there was a lot of interest in breeding two year olds.
He said only if they were at least a full 24 months old, had been on a very good nutritional program their whole lives and would remain on one throughout the pregnancy, lactation. Then of course the mare should be big and healthy and mentally mature. If any one of those items wasn't the case, then she wasn't a candidate for breeding as a two year old.
He also warned that it would affect the mare physically. Her legs will end up a little shorter than they would have been. Her ribs will be sprung a little. Neither of those really matter if she's just going to be your broodmare forever.
I always appreciated this article because it was written by a man with a solid academic background in addition to decades of experience breeding many, many hundreds of mares. I like that combination much better than anecdotal evidence. But I have one of those stories too.
My Dad, who is now 91, got his first broodmare when he was 7. She was two. She was also his first saddle horse of his own. And she was pregnant. Bred as a yearling and foaled at two. She had a colt every year and was his ranch horse for years and years. I guess she kept having foals well into her late teens although Dad no doubt moved on to other riding horses before that. The colts just followed along. That was normal back then. I tell that story to stress that just because something went wrong or went right for a mare someone had doesn't mean it's a great idea.
Go with the advice from the experts!
We don't breed twos but do breed threes. But we don't feed tons of grain every day - ours are on pasture a lot.
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
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Location: OH | OhMax - 2016-05-09 12:47 PM I would consider AI over live cover and a smaller stud if she's not all that big, but I think you'd be okay.
Size of the mature stud does not play into the size of the newborn foal. |
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Location: Somewhere around here | I'd say the youngest would be 3 or 4. We bought a young OTTB a few years ago and had a knee injury. Got her for a good price so we decided to spend the money on the surgery to fix her up, having a high success rate, and planned on riding her and barrel racing her afterwards. Lo behold, she died on the operating table.  We wished we just kept her home now and just bred her to a good stud. |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| My vet breeds all of his mares as 2 year olds and then rides them. He just had an awesome MP Jet To The Sun filly out of a 3 yo daughter of A Streak Of Fling (was 2 when he bred her). He thinks it gives them a little more time to physically develope before riding. Most mares handle pregnancy fine until the last 60 days or so...which in this case happens as a 3 year old. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | I bought my paint mare at an auction for $75 in 2008. She had turned 2yrs old 2 days before the auction. She foaled a month later, unfortunately he did not make it. My mare was very malnourished, I have no clue how she managed to make it threw all that. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 383
| omg! that's crazy!!!! poor baby- this makes me sick- I can't even imagine breeding a mare before she was at least 7-8 and I would only do it then if she was unable to compete- horses in the first year are equal to 10 yrs every year after that it goes 2 years so a 2 year old horse is equal to a 12 year old girl---IMO there is no way anybody should be breeding a PHILLY - the horse world just keeps getting crazier and crazier, I'm sorry for my vent I know it wasn't your fault and thank God you rescued her cuz she sure didn't get no breaks on the start of her life |
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 Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. |
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 Witty Enough
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Location: CTX | crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.
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Location: SE Louisiana | crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM
I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.
I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Edited by komet. 2016-05-10 1:37 PM
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 Elite Veteran
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Location: West Texas | I have a little different take on this. I would find it hard to determine whether a mare was good enough or I wanted to breed her until she was at least 4, much less the physical aspect. I am not shaming anyone, but there is no good argument that can be made against the fact that physical stresses of growing a baby and your own body, at the same time, are not an ideal situation.
I would prefer not to breed a mare until they were probably 5 and I could make a good decision for all involved.
Edited by Tdove 2016-05-10 1:34 PM
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there.Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems |
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Expert
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Location: SE Louisiana | crossspur - 2016-05-10 1:53 PM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
I fully agree any other animal has to worry about size if the male is much larger. I also understand mares die from problems all the time. But a mare has an explosive birth unlike anything else I know of and that's why she can't remain in labor for very long, like if a leg/s or a head is back or it comes breach. I've heard about lots of examples of full size saddle stallions bred to pony mares that produce foals not larger or not much larger than a pony stallion would have produced. Certainly they wind up bigger though. You would know more about this than I do of course because your place produces more foals every year than I ever dealt with. Maybe I just misunderstood. |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | komet. - 2016-05-10 2:09 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 1:53 PM komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence. Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there.
Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
I fully agree any other animal has to worry about size if the male is much larger. I also understand mares die from problems all the time. But a mare has an explosive birth unlike anything else I know of and that's why she can't remain in labor for very long, like if a leg/s or a head is back or it comes breach. I've heard about lots of examples of full size saddle stallions bred to pony mares that produce foals not larger or not much larger than a pony stallion would have produced. Certainly they wind up bigger though. You would know more about this than I do of course because your place produces more foals every year than I ever dealt with. Maybe I just misunderstood.
No some people do believe that mares control the size of thier foals, but it is an old wives tale. Like all things often it does work out but it also sometimes devastating results. We know a man that has raised draft horses for years and he says they have a lot more foaling problem that standard breed horses |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | We have, a small 2yr cutting bred horse to AQHA World Champion Superhorse LM. We got the most beautiful doll baby from that breeding. She was required to work, we had 600 head of momma cows and a time line to keep her on her training track. The baby was sold for 6 figures and purchased back when we realized what we let go of. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1889
Location: Texas | The youngest I've bred is a 3-year-old who is a good size filly. My vet prefers to wait until they are at least 4. Our filly would have gone to the track if she hadn't nearly cut a hoof off and is now broodmare sound. This is her new job, and she is a doting mother just like her own momma. |
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... | I have bred a 3 year old. She was a daughter of DTF I bought off the track, had run AAA. She had a small fracture in a bone in her knee and needed some time off to heal. I bred her, she foaled out fine, and the fall of her 4 year old year I weaned the filly off of her and put her into barrel training. She went on to win one barrel futurity and make the short go and place in several go rounds of several others, as a 5 year old. |
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 Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
Edited by bennie1 2016-05-11 12:26 PM
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Expert
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Location: SE Louisiana | bennie1 - 2016-05-11 12:25 PM
Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
Wow.... It's pretty darn risky just being born a horse.   |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 324
| komet. - 2016-05-11 1:53 PM bennie1 - 2016-05-11 12:25 PM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g... Wow.... It's pretty darn risky just being born a horse.
"If half of the things that could go wrong with horses, did go wrong, there would be very few horses in the world."
Or something along those lines... Anyways I like it! |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Mighty Broke - 2016-05-09 1:39 PM
OhMax - 2016-05-09 12:47 PM I would consider AI over live cover and a smaller stud if she's not all that big, but I think you'd be okay.
Size of the mature stud does not play into the size of the newborn foal.
It's not necessarily the size of the stallion that is a factor in how large the foals are. My stallion is 15.1. I've noticed if I feed the mare too well in the last trimester (2 flakes of alfalfa instead of 1, 2 # of grain instead of 1) the foals will be borderline too large. Some of them have been really difficult foalings because the foal is large. This is why I try my best to be present at all births.
I wish there was more statistical data on foal size. I know if you are a cattle breeder, you want to breed heifers to a bull that sires small birth weight calves.
Edited by OregonBR 2016-05-13 3:36 PM
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | shilohorse - 2016-05-09 9:25 PM
omg! that's crazy!!!! poor baby- this makes me sick- I can't even imagine breeding a mare before she was at least 7-8 and I would only do it then if she was unable to compete- horses in the first year are equal to 10 yrs every year after that it goes 2 years so a 2 year old horse is equal to a 12 year old girl---IMO there is no way anybody should be breeding a PHILLY - the horse world just keeps getting crazier and crazier, I'm sorry for my vent I know it wasn't your fault and thank God you rescued her cuz she sure didn't get no breaks on the start of her life
Calm down. It's filly, not philly.
Breeding females as 2 year olds is not done a lot anymore. I think it happened a LOT more 50 or more years ago.
To the OP. There was a study done I read quite a while back that showed the optimal age to breed a filly is 3. Not 5, 6, 7 or older. They have a longer and more productive broodmare life when starting to breed at age 3. |
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | crossspur - 2016-05-10 8:01 AM
I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
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Location: Kansas | shilohorse - 2016-05-09 11:25 PM omg! that's crazy!!!! poor baby- this makes me sick- I can't even imagine breeding a mare before she was at least 7-8 and I would only do it then if she was unable to compete- horses in the first year are equal to 10 yrs every year after that it goes 2 years so a 2 year old horse is equal to a 12 year old girl---IMO there is no way anybody should be breeding a PHILLY - the horse world just keeps getting crazier and crazier, I'm sorry for my vent I know it wasn't your fault and thank God you rescued her cuz she sure didn't get no breaks on the start of her life
"FILLY" |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | http://www.thehorse.com/articles/34058/surrogate-mares-impact-on-em...
An interesting study. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Mighty Broke - 2016-05-09 3:39 PM
OhMax - 2016-05-09 12:47 PM I would consider AI over live cover and a smaller stud if she's not all that big, but I think you'd be okay.
Size of the mature stud does not play into the size of the newborn foal.
I guess I don't know as much as I thought I did.... I always assumed it didn't matter if he was 12 months old or 12 years old when he coverd the mare, he is going to throw the same type of foal? |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| OregonBR - 2016-05-13 3:55 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another
There have been studies done that are referenced in an article I posted a link to above that the mare's uterine capacity does indeed affect fetal size |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Here is a cut and paste:
Back to fetal development. The size of the fetus at birth is often determined more by the mare's uterine capacity than by genetics, although genetics do kick in once the foal has been born.
In one bit of research at Colorado State University, a Shetland pony mare was inseminated with semen from a draft horse stallion. The pony mare delivered a small foal during a normal birth, but the foal soon outgrew its mother once it was on the ground and nursing.
Two papers presented at the International Symposium on Equine Reproduction held in South Africa in July also indicated that the mare exerts considerable influence on the size of the growing fetus.
In one paper, a researcher from Poland--Marian Tischer, who studied embryo transfer foals--found that "irrespective of genetic makeup, the ultimate height of the horse is decided by nourishment during gestation and less so by the milk capacity of the mare."
The second study was carried out by researchers in England who studied the influence of maternal size on fetal and post-natal development in the horse. They reported that, "Maternal size significantly affects fetal growth, presumably by means of limiting the area of uterine endometrium available for attachment of the diffuse epitheliochorial placenta." |
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The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | bennie1 - 2016-05-11 10:25 AM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
IMO, if it were as simple as that, there would NEVER be foals that are too big to be delivered, and they end up having to be taken out of the mare in PIECES. But that can and DOES happen.
One place I worked had a son of Seattle Slew. This horse was BIG. (not just tall, but thick too.) His foasl were BORN large. We NEVER bred him to maiden mares, as before anyone "figured it out", he had several foals that were too big to be delivered by the mare!
Sure, "generally" everything goes just fine. But WHY "push your luck" by breeding a young and/or maiden mare to a stallion that is KNOWN to have large foals no matter the size of the mare? |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| RacingQH - 2016-05-14 11:48 AM
bennie1 - 2016-05-11 10:25 AM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
IMO, if it were as simple as that, there would NEVER be foals that are too big to be delivered, and they end up having to be taken out of the mare in PIECES. But that can and DOES happen.
One place I worked had a son of Seattle Slew. This horse was BIG. (not just tall, but thick too.) His foasl were BORN large. We NEVER bred him to maiden mares, as before anyone "figured it out", he had several foals that were too big to be delivered by the mare!
Sure, "generally" everything goes just fine. But WHY "push your luck" by breeding a young and/or maiden mare to a stallion that is KNOWN to have large foals no matter the size of the mare?
There will always be outliers in about every situation. There are 'norms' and 'exceptions'.
The statement was made that the mare's capacity having an impact on fetal size was an old wives tale. These studies show that more often than not, mare capacity does affect fetal size. |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | bennie1 - 2016-05-14 1:42 PM
RacingQH - 2016-05-14 11:48 AM
bennie1 - 2016-05-11 10:25 AM Here is an article that cites a study at Colorado State and one in South Africa as well as a couple papers on the subject of fetal size at birth being largely determined by the mare's capacity. Not really an old wive's tale http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10257/fetal-development-and-foal-g...
IMO, if it were as simple as that, there would NEVER be foals that are too big to be delivered, and they end up having to be taken out of the mare in PIECES. But that can and DOES happen.
One place I worked had a son of Seattle Slew. This horse was BIG. (not just tall, but thick too.) His foasl were BORN large. We NEVER bred him to maiden mares, as before anyone "figured it out", he had several foals that were too big to be delivered by the mare!
Sure, "generally" everything goes just fine. But WHY "push your luck" by breeding a young and/or maiden mare to a stallion that is KNOWN to have large foals no matter the size of the mare?
There will always be outliers in about every situation. There are 'norms' and 'exceptions'.
The statement was made that the mare's capacity having an impact on fetal size was an old wives tale. These studies show that more often than not, mare capacity does affect fetal size.
What you are trying to say is... 'the average is calculated from extremes'... Lets say cows can cycle anywhere from 18 to 24 days apart.. so we say 21 days... Edited by komet. 2016-05-14 2:49 PM
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| i have a horsei was showing i knew had ulcers and iwas using 1/3 of a tube and it worked as well as a whole tibe . i ran out one shoe and the oxygen product that comesin a tube he acted like i had not given him any thing.
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Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9991
Location: Kansas | daisycake123 - 2016-05-15 7:25 AM i have a horsei was showing i knew had ulcers and iwas using 1/3 of a tube and it worked as well as a whole tibe . i ran out one shoe and the oxygen product that comesin a tube he acted like i had not given him any thing.
I'm 99.99% sure you posted this one the wrong thread LOL |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | bennie1 - 2016-05-13 6:34 PM
OregonBR - 2016-05-13 3:55 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another
There have been studies done that are referenced in an article I posted a link to above that the mare's uterine capacity does indeed affect fetal size
I've read studies. But my experience has taught me otherwise. Mares can and do have babies that are too big to come out. There's very little wiggle room for things to go well or go horribly wrong. I had one this year that was a dang yearling when we got her out. She was already dead from an extended wait for the vet to come. Her mother was an old pro and she COULDN'T get her out without 2 men and a woman pulling for all they were worth on cables around the fillies pasterns. The next thing we would have had to do is take her out in pieces. |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| OregonBR - 2016-05-16 11:37 AM
bennie1 - 2016-05-13 6:34 PM
OregonBR - 2016-05-13 3:55 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-10 11:53 AM
komet. - 2016-05-10 12:54 PM crossspur - 2016-05-10 10:01 AM I wish people wouldn't just breed horses. They need to look at each horse indivdually. Is the mare mature enough to breed? Horses just like people all mature at different rates. Then look at stallion you breed your first time mares to. What kind of foals do they throw? We have 2 stallion we never breed our first time mares to because they throw big, big boned foals. Also look at the pedigrees do they match up? People should have a plan & program ( even if they just have 1 mare) before they start breeding. And I could shout this at the top of my lungs Before you get a stallion have a safe place to keep it and learn how to handle them. Accidents happen often even in the best laid plans, but try everything you can to prevent them. I do agree that the conformation enhancements that you want to get between the two should be the overriding factors. But I thought the uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. In a filly that has had an injury, I'd be looking at whether the extra weight of the foal would start causing problems as she got close to term. I've always heard that once bred, a mare stops growing taller and starts growing wider... and yes, Stallions have a two track mind. Grass and a$$.... Both are always better on the other side of the fence.
Not putting you down at all Komet, but I don't know where the idea that uterus of the mare restricted the foal from getting to a dangerous size. People who breed cattle use heifer bulls. Bulls that produce low birth weight calves so that heifers don't have calving issues. Horses are livestock. A stallion that throws big foals especially large boned foals will do that no matter the mare. Lots of mare die from foaling issues. When a mare has foaling issues they have to be dealt with very quickly there often isn’t time for a vet to get there. Over feeding can also lead to foals being to big, but genetics play a big role in it. People often think if a maiden mare is large she won’t have foaling issues but a large mare will often have a very large foal. People need to think about these things when breeding maiden mares no matter their age.
Cows, goats, pigs even dogs can have babies to large to deliver without problems
You're EXACTLY right. Have another
There have been studies done that are referenced in an article I posted a link to above that the mare's uterine capacity does indeed affect fetal size
I've read studies. But my experience has taught me otherwise. Mares can and do have babies that are too big to come out. There's very little wiggle room for things to go well or go horribly wrong. I had one this year that was a dang yearling when we got her out. She was already dead from an extended wait for the vet to come. Her mother was an old pro and she COULDN'T get her out without 2 men and a woman pulling for all they were worth on cables around the fillies pasterns. The next thing we would have had to do is take her out in pieces.
I have unfortunately had the same experience with a too large foal several years ago. The impetus for me researching this issue to prevent it from happening again. The conclusion I came to after reading what I could find on the subject was, sometimes bad things happen despite all our best efforts to take precautions. |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me |
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Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| crossspur - 2016-05-17 2:28 PM
I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me
No apology necessary! When our horses are hurting we all stress out!
I for one feel so powerless when things like this happen.
I'm praying for a good outcome for your mare! |
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Roan Wonder
Location: SW MO | bennie1 - 2016-05-17 3:22 PM
crossspur - 2016-05-17 2:28 PM
I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me
No apology necessary! When our horses are hurting we all stress out!
I for one feel so powerless when things like this happen.
I'm praying for a good outcome for your mare!
A good outcome would be great, but as we all know stress founder is one ugly creature, I have am very afraid we aren't going to see good results.
I told my husband 3 nights ago it wouldn't be so hard to take if the foal hadn't been so beautiful. A big jet black stud colt, but then insult added to injury when the mare started showing signs of being ill. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | crossspur - 2016-05-17 3:59 PM bennie1 - 2016-05-17 3:22 PM crossspur - 2016-05-17 2:28 PM I apologize I think I had my hateful shoes on this morning please forgive me No apology necessary! When our horses are hurting we all stress out! I for one feel so powerless when things like this happen. I'm praying for a good outcome for your mare! A good outcome would be great, but as we all know stress founder is one ugly creature, I have am very afraid we aren't going to see good results. I told my husband 3 nights ago it wouldn't be so hard to take if the foal hadn't been so beautiful. A big jet black stud colt, but then insult added to injury when the mare started showing signs of being ill.
Oh no so sorry to hear this, prayers for your mare.  |
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What's the youngest you'd breed a filly?