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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
  
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I thought this was interesting:
http://www.doctorramey.com/certified-experts/ | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
 
Location: Displaced Iowegian | LOL....that was FUNNY and SO TRUE !!!!!  | |
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| When I was a young boy, my granddad gave me his definition of an EXPERT
and it has stuck with me all my life ..
EX ... is a has-been
SPURT ... is a drip under pressure
NUFF SAID ..
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2016-05-30 11:03 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Wow! That guy has some serious issues- was he drinking when he wrote that? Lol- here is an excerpt from what he said, The problem is that so much of what passes for “education” and “certification” is really just the unsupervised distribution of various ideas and theories that have little or no basis in reality, science, or good medicine. They might be full of good intentions, but, as the old line goes, that’s also the paving material for the road to hell.
To me, all of these “certified experts” are a huge problem, because they’re mostly out their confusing people, and getting them to waste time and money on unproven and/or unneeded treatments. Unless, of course, you are certified by the Veterinary Voodoo Society (I am proud to say that I am)." Holy cow! I wonder if he'd secretly like to become a ceritifed equine massage therapist so he can work his arse off everyday until he has sweat running out of his eyeballs for an hour or more at a time working painful knots out of the tissue (that he completely ignored) when he stuck them with his $400 cortisone injection? I am very proud to say that I am a Certified Equine Massage Therapist and a Masterson Method Practitoner. I personally work with some very excellent vets who understand what I do and even value it- they know that each of us have limitations in what we specialize in, but there is a need for both. I wonder if he feels the same way about Certified Farriers as well- I guess he'd rather have an uncertified farrier shoe his horses, or maybe he thinks shoeing horses is all quackery? Wow- I'm sorry, I don't very often call anybody an idiot- but that guy definitely fits the description- Yeeks-
ETA- I just looked at his website and verified that he is indeed an idiot- he condems ALL alternative medicine; including acupuncture, homeopathy, chiropractic, herbal and vitamin supplements and magnets. He has articles that he wrote on his page that speak of each of these modalities in the same condescending tone that he uses in the article Bear posted. Wow- I did not know there were still vets out there who could make a living with such a narrow minded perspective.
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-30 11:38 PM
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 Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7616
Location: Dubach, LA | You said it Trickster. He is a talented writer. He has a large following, so I wish he'd take the time to research the modalities he writes about. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Basically, I think his point has been missed.......quote from his article... for an organization or individual to “certify” that you know WHAT THEY HAVE TAUGHT YOU. It’s a certificate of completion, as it were. And there’s the rub – WHO SAYS THAT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT HAS ANY MEANING??????"
You could be a certified dishwasher just because some organization or multi-level marketing team have taught you how to wash dishes.....Is it meaningful or of use?
Edited by NJJ 2016-05-31 10:28 AM
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 Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | NJJ - 2016-05-31 10:27 AM
Basically, I think his point has been missed.......quote from his article... for an organization or individual to “certify” that you know WHAT THEY HAVE TAUGHT YOU. It’s a certificate of completion, as it were. And there’s the rub – WHO SAYS THAT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT HAS ANY MEANING??????"
You could be a certified dishwasher just because some organization or multi-level marketing team have taught you how to wash dishes.....Is it meaningful or of use?
Does my mom count?? She taught me to wash dishes.... very well!!!  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| NJJ - 2016-05-31 8:27 AM Basically, I think his point has been missed.......quote from his article... for an organization or individual to “certify” that you know WHAT THEY HAVE TAUGHT YOU. It’s a certificate of completion, as it were. And there’s the rub – WHO SAYS THAT WHAT IS BEING TAUGHT HAS ANY MEANING??????"
You could be a certified dishwasher just because some organization or multi-level marketing team have taught you how to wash dishes.....Is it meaningful or of use?
No, I got his point- he was referring to certified equine bodyworkers- that point was pretty clear.
ETA: A certificate is something a person earns when they have met the standards of the certifying organizaton- if the organization is reputable the certificate is of value, if it is not, than it isn't. The consumer just needs to do some homework and look into the certiying agency and decide for themselves if the qualifications are what they have a need for. Does that make sense?
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 12:43 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault. | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 11:44 AM
How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Step one: Spend no less than 10 years smoking Herb.... (get back to me when that's done) | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| komet. - 2016-05-31 10:46 AM Bear - 2016-05-31 11:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? Step one: Spend no less than 10 years smoking Herb.... (get back to me when that's done )
Lol Komet- don't you know that the voice of reason is the number one thread killer around here?? I wish you would have let this go on a bit longer before you made everyone just slink away........  | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | trickster j - 2016-05-31 1:26 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 10:46 AM Bear - 2016-05-31 11:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? Step one: Spend no less than 10 years smoking Herb.... (get back to me when that's done )
Well... I know how well it pays... I used to make a living digging Echinacea (coneflower) , Goldenseal and Ginsing... as well as a .... ummm... few other things... Morels are not the only mushrooms we harvested... I used to live in Mark Twain National Forest... Every spring it was a race between me and the thieving deer to see who got to the mushrooms first!!  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Edited by Tdove 2016-05-31 3:02 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling.
Edited by komet. 2016-05-31 3:21 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling.
Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients. | |
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling.
Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients.
I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one....
People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives....
You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon
My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep....
So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain... | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling.
Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients.
I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one....
People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives....
You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon
My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep....
So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Oh how I honestly wish this were true.
I've seen some miracles, but I can't say I can explain them. That would be dishonest on my part, and arrogant. If you choose to believe that a soothing voice saved someone from cancer, good for you. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault. The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies. Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence. To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course. Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling. Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients. I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one.... People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives.... You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep.... So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Additionally, I would seriously question the diagnosis of cancer from the very unreliable tests used in the 50's.
Edited by NJJ 2016-05-31 4:59 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 4:51 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling.
Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients.
I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one....
People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives....
You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon
My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep....
So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Oh how I honestly wish this were true.
I've seen some miracles, but I can't say I can explain them. That would be dishonest on my part, and arrogant. If you choose to believe that a soothing voice saved someone from cancer, good for you.
This is the difference between a man of science and a man of faith.. I have been witness to miracles... So have you.. The difference is I acknowledge them... and you are still hesitant... Not to worry Doc.. Neva will bring you around... (dogs are good at that)  | |
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Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | NJJ - 2016-05-31 4:58 PM
komet. - 2016-05-31 4:21 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 3:39 PM komet. - 2016-05-31 3:10 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 2:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"? Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault. The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies. Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence. To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course. Your about to step on some toes here....My mother's dad was a Naprapath..Both her parents were licensed but only her dad practiced. In the mid 1950 Grandma was diagnosed with cancer. The best hospitals in the city of Chicago said there was no hope. Grandpa Nelson demanded they send her home with him. He treated her with Naprapathy and she outlived in him into the 90s. What you want is a gas chromatopher so you can be sure of what you are selling. Chiropractic medicine did not cure her cancer, Komet. Just because she lived longer than expected and she happened to receive chiropractic care doesn't mean the chiropractic medicine did anything for her cancer. This is the kind of reasoning that naturopaths depend on. Chiropractic medicine does not cure cancer. It might make some peop,e feel better, but it has never cured cancer, nor has it extended life in cancer patients. I respectively disagree sir... If you can stop the pain, you can allow the body to focus on other problems and heal itself..... I did not say he was a Chiropractor... They employ drugs. Naprapathy does not. But he included something I don 't know if others do. Because I never attended another one.... People here... SOME people here, grew up with true story-tellers.... Rule number one for a good storyteller is they have to have a relaxing voice.... Anyone that has ever watched Christmas shows like 'Frosty The Snowman' or 'Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer' know the voice of a man named Burl Ives.... You, Scott, coming from where you do, know another relaxing voice... Garrison Keillor and the news from Lake Wobegon My grandfather is the only other person I ever met that had a voice like this. After he got done with the treatment, he would sit down and start to talk about whatever was on his mind.... Later.. I would wake up in the room alone.... I would be so relaxed after the treatment, he could talk me to sleep.... So... Once again we must agree to disagree..... Stopping the pain allows the body to focus on what is CAUSING the pain...
Additionally, I would seriously question the diagnosis of cancer from the very unreliable tests used in the 50's.
From the best hospitals in the city of Chicago??? Because my grandparents were not poor....
I don't know how it is now... But I have been to more than one chiropractor that prescribed painkillers to me... I admit I don't know what else they were licensed for.... But I got hurt putting shoes on a horse one day and it was a full year before I could walk again.... I crawled from the bed to the toilet to the kitchen and back again... It was a 20 minute trip to go 75 feet out to the mailbox and back... I know about pain... I never gave up... That's why I walk today... I overcame addiction to prescribed painkillers... and several other recreational drugs... You don't EVEN want to go there there with me.... | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | First of all, Komet, I acknowledged that I have seen a few miracles.
Secondly, where does it say that you cannot be both a man of science and a man of faith? I happen to be both, and I know many just like me. Are you questioning that, or are you arguing for the sake of being argumentative? | |
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Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | Bear - 2016-05-31 5:17 PM
First of all, Komet, I acknowledged that I have seen a few miracles.
Secondly, where does it say that you cannot be both a man of science and a man of faith? I happen to be both, and I know many just like me. Are you questioning that, or are you arguing for the sake of being argumentative?
Well Doc... You know I love to argue.. (I got that from my dad).. So... Why do you ask??? 
I honestly didn't believe that you believed in miracles... It's nice to know that you do sir..
Edited by komet. 2016-05-31 5:23 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4121
Location: SE Louisiana | komet. - 2016-05-31 5:22 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 5:17 PM
First of all, Komet, I acknowledged that I have seen a few miracles.
Secondly, where does it say that you cannot be both a man of science and a man of faith? I happen to be both, and I know many just like me. Are you questioning that, or are you arguing for the sake of being argumentative?
Well Doc... You know I love to argue.. (I got that from my dad ).. So... Why do you ask???
I honestly didn't believe that you believed in miracles... It's nice to know that you do sir..
BUT!!!! It's not very often that you find someone that believes in both.... Usually it's one or the other... You must have a group.... I'd like to be introduced to them.. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| I personally still think that Dr. Ramey's opinion of certified experts is ridiculous, as are the other articles he wrote on his web page- and I could argue that point for a lengthy period of time-  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I've always liked Dr Ramey. I think he is probably very well trained and conscientious. He's no nonsense and seems very sound. His CV is pretty impressive, and it includes textbooks on "alternative veterinary medicine". He believes in "evidence-based" veterinary medicine, and I find that refreshing. A lot of promoters of quackery and gimmicks hate the guy....for reasons that should be obvious.
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Bear - 2016-05-31 6:34 PM I've always liked Dr Ramey. I think he is probably very well trained and conscientious. He's no nonsense and seems very sound. His CV is pretty impressive, and it includes textbooks on "alternative veterinary medicine". He believes in "evidence-based" veterinary medicine, and I find that refreshing. A lot of promoters of quackery and gimmicks hate the guy....for reasons that should be obvious.
^^^^ THIS | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | The honest-to-God reason why I pay so much attention to so-called alternative veterinary medicine on this forum is because I know a lot of people are trying to own horses and compete on them, sometimes at a very high level, often times on a pretty narrow budget. Some aren't necessarily scientifically inclined or well educated in biological sciences. They are particularly vulnerable to marketing tactics and quackery. Sometimes all they really have to go by is the opinions of other participants on these threads, and I think a lot of people spend a lot of hard earned money on junk. I hate to see that, which is why I jump in the fray and at least try to make some sense of things. I don't have a thing to gain, one way or the other. That's not always the case on the other side of these debates.
Edited by Bear 2016-05-31 7:28 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 5:26 PM The honest-to-God reason why I pay so much attention to so-called alternative veterinary medicine on this forum is because I know a lot of people are trying to own horses and compete on them, sometimes at a very high level, often times on a pretty narrow budget. Some aren't necessarily scientifically inclined or well educated in biological sciences. They are particularly vulnerable to marketing tactics and quackery. Sometimes all they really have to go by is the opinions of other participants on these threads, and I think a lot of people spend a lot of hard earned money on junk. I hate to see that, which is why I jump in the fray and at least try to make some sense of things. I don't have a thing to gain, one way or the other. That's not always the case on the other side of these debates. I see the same issues Bear, I've been in the business for almost 20 years- just yesterday I pulled a girl away from a dealer who was about to sell her a Therascope 360 for $30,000. I deal with these things every day. We can't save them all, but we can try.
eta: I don't want you to think by my saying this that I am agreeing with your convictions as they relate to alternative medicines and certifications- because I do not.
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 7:39 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:30 PM
He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons.
Well, because he doesn't conform to your belief system doesn't make him "narrow-minded" in my book. That's a popular cliche'/retort in the alternative medicine community. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 5:47 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:30 PM He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons. Well, because he doesn't conform to your belief system doesn't make him "narrow-minded" in my book. That's a popular cliche'/retort in the alternative medicine community.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 8:11 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:55 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 5:47 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 7:30 PM He appears narrow-minded, short-sighted, and uneducated in alternative veterinary medicines..... even the most obviously beneficial ones like chiropractic, acupuncture and massage. You'd have to review his website to see how he states all of this in his articles.
I don't like quackery and gimmicks either- for obvious reasons. Well, because he doesn't conform to your belief system doesn't make him "narrow-minded" in my book. That's a popular cliche'/retort in the alternative medicine community.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative specialty health related modalities.
I realize I'm not well educated or well versed in basic equine anatomy and physiology in your mind, but I daresay Dr Ramey's training, background, and fund of knowledge far overshadows yours. The main thrust of my starting this thread, to begin with, was to put forth my opinion that being "CERTIFIED in alternative specialty health-related modalities" is merely a marketing tool, for the most part. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | This is from a site called Quackwatch:
3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| read my post above if you have missed it- and to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject. I've dissected horses and studied equine biomechanics as a hobby for decades- this is why I have good relationships with the veterinarians I work with. They appreciate that I hold certifications, they state these to their clients when they refer them to me.
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Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 8:23 PM
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | I utilize a few certified experts such as a equine denist, farriers message therapist and a horse Chiro. I can see the point Dr Ramsey is making since I've seen coarses offered and you can be certified for some massage therapist in 3 days.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg
More keywords, straight from the playbook:
" narrow minded" (again) and "uneducated" ( again)
Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM
GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.
I admire vet students. It's tough to get in vet school. They have huge student loans and get paid peanuts when they graduate. The working conditions in my area are not fun. Vets also to take Call for emergencies so even when they are not at work they can't make out of town plans when they are on call. They work as hard if not harder than MD's in worse conditions and get paid less.
Edited by ndcowgirl 2016-05-31 9:02 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ndcowgirl - 2016-05-31 8:45 PM
I utilize a few certified experts such as a equine denist, farriers message therapist and a horse Chiro. I can see the point Dr Ramsey is making since I've seen coarses offered and you can be certified for some massage therapist in 3 days.
That's my point. I agree. We have used equine dentists and chiros as well, in fact. Chiros definitely have their place, in my opinion. I've known a few self- described equine chiros, who were basically self-taught. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam?
Ok- once again you've verified my opinion of you. You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one- it's obvious you only meant to irritate and not educate- since you are an expert of irritation but a novice in education. carry on with your agenda here- I won't interfere- | |
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 Three in a Bikini
Posts: 2035
| Bear - 2016-05-31 12:48 PM
trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
The problem, as I see it, is people are trying to apply standards that attempt to imply a certain level of excellence and a sound fund of scientific knowledge, to an industry that is largely devoid of those principles. I'm speaking of naturopathic and alternative remedies.
Now, having said that, I emphasize the qualifier "largely", because there are several exceptions. The key thing in traditional medicine is to remain open to considering naturopathic/alternative remedies and therapies, without sacrificing sound, objective scientific principles and.....standards. We call this "integrative" medicine. In medicine, a student typically must graduate from college and take a standardized exam prior to consideration for acceptance into medical school. He/she must have letters of recommendation, and a high GPA before being considered for an interview. Once accepted, a student must pass all courses/rotations before graduation, 4 years later. Before being allowed to independently practice medicine, a doctor must pass 3 sets of national examinations over the course of his/her education and training. Then we have 3-6 years of residency training where you basically have no life outside of a hospital, and you learn the meaning of sleep deprivation. On the completion of residency, there is a final process of board certification. That involves a written exam, followed by an oral exam, IF you have passed the written exam. There now is a process of "recertification" that requires you to pass another exam, usually every 10 years. In addition to all of this, each state has various requirements for so many hours of continuing medical education. Some additional requirements exist in certain states, like Texas, where you have to take a course in medical jurisprudence.
To become "certified" in things like vibrating plates, herbs, lasers, and magnets doesn't mean anything to me. It might mean you have to pass a rigorous training followed by some standard exam, or it might mean the entrepreneur who taught you how to use a device for a fee or "tuition" simply issued a certificate, on the completion of a course.
This is the most well written post I have read on this forum in so long...
Thank goodness someone finally said it.  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam?
Um, I'll have you know that I've had more education than you could even dream of having.
So, you won't answer my question about your certification process.
Your timing of bowing out of this discussion is evidently fortuitous.
You tried to belittle me for posting something off the internet, yet, my understanding is the "Masterson Method", in which you are certified, is a course available online. How do you reconcile this hypocrisy? | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam?
Since you are so hell bent on calling him uneducated, etc.....please answer his questions....... | |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | ndcowgirl - 2016-05-31 9:49 PM casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all. Amen to this!!! Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond. Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes. So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.
Ive been at UF equine hospital many many times.. These vet students are overworked. never sleep, are learning and getting yelled at.. its a on and on thing.. I admire their strong dedication because without them there would be no good vets in the years to come.. I know vets that have been vets for 30 yrs that are so burned out they would rather not come to your barn at 3 am for a colic or distress.. but a new vet sure would.. yes experience is great.. so is passion and dedication.. as a horse owner we must stay on top of things.. do they make wrong decisions? absolutely.. so does a 30 yr vet.. there are good and bad in all fields..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-05-31 9:36 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| NJJ - 2016-05-31 7:14 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam?
OK, so in 2001 I went through a year long course in equine massage, this was so long ago I can't specifically remember exact training hours, but there were 4 modules to go through with the final one containing a complete dissection. There was ALOT of anatomy involved in this course. There were written exams each week and final practical exams at the end of each module which required evaluating, treating and reassessing our subjects. This training earned me my Certification in Equine Massage, I went to this school in Loveland, CO and had the honor of being taught by not only the original founder of Equitouch (the program has drastically changed in the past 15 years) as well as Dave McLean who was one of the first equine chiros in our part of the country.
In 2006 I had a serious shoulder injury that made it very difficult (impossible) to work on horses as physically as I had before, and so I discovered the magic of microcurrent therapy- of which there is plenty of scientific research discussings the benefits of beginning in 1970 with the first machines which were called the Acuscope, to which they later added the Myoscope (name later changed to Myopulse) and then the Proscope 360 came shortly after these units, along with the Precision, MENS Miva and a few others whose names escape me right now. 30 years forward we have more technologically advanced and far more user-friendly machines- but that's another subject. So yes, I am a certified microcurrent therapist as well- and this also involved an exam, practicum and field study.
In 2011 I met Jim Masterson, who is the author of "Beyond Horse Massage" and has been the official equine therpist for the USET. His website is www.mastersonmethod.com if you are interested to know more about him. His practitioner program consists of an initial weekend training followed by a 7 day advanced training, followed by a mimimum of a year of practical training consisting of 3 blocks of 15 case studies followed up with three weekends of hands on training with a certified coach. This program also contained an intensive anatomy course- which I happily whizzed through because of my previous anatomy education. Finally, when the field study and anatomy courses are completed, there is a 3-day finishing course where you work one on one with Jim and learn more advanced techniques and variations. I cranked my way through Jim's certification process- but it generally takes over a year to complete, I worked my arse off and completed it in one.
In the meantime, I have been to Dr. Deb Bennett's 5-day dissection course, studied the works of Dr. Daniel Kamen, April Battles, and many, many more. And previous to my shoulder injury, I had been a personal trainer (yes ACSM and AFAA certified) for 15 years, which made the anatomy and biomechanic elements easy for me to catch on too. I was also a Johnny G. certfied Spinning Instructor, step aerobic and kickboxing certified as well- oh yes, and of course certified in CPR.
I currently am working on my masters degree in professional counseling through Grand Canyon University, my goal is to be a Certified Equine Psychotherapist.
Previous to all of this, I have been invloved with horses my entire life and have been blessed to be able to train under such legends as Peggy Cummings and Sally Swift- I've also attended numerous horsemanship, training, barrel racing, roping, reining, etc. clinics because I feel that I can never learn enough and that most everyone (even those without PhD's!) can offer me something to benefit my endeavours.
eta: I completely forgot that I have a 2-year associates degree from Central Wyoming College in Equine Science- funny this accomplishment is the one that I value the least!
So enough about me- how about you and Bear?
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 10:54 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 7:13 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam? Um, I'll have you know that I've had more education than you could even dream of having. So, you won't answer my question about your certification process. Your timing of bowing out of this discussion is evidently fortuitous. You tried to belittle me for posting something off the internet, yet, my understanding is the "Masterson Method", in which you are certified, is a course available online. How do you reconcile this hypocrisy?
eta: if I don't respond right away don't think I am "bowing out" of the discussion- I see that this is going to take some time to get through with you and I am committed to finishing it to the end. I have to work on my paper for school- (gasp- online!! LOL). I have to describe and analyze neoanalytic, Jungian and Individual Psychology Theory Applications. Spending time with you here of course would be much more fun- but it's not doing much to further my education, it's just very amusing is all. Thanks for your time- I am eagerly awaiting to see how you would like to bash me next-
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 10:40 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Crickets....... dang........
eta: I gotta share this on my FB page- and all my therapy group pages too-
etaa: No- I won't put it on my personal page, that wouldn't be professional (I'm a Better Business Bureau member, I've got a certificate to prove it). My therapy groups will enjoy it though-
Edited by trickster j 2016-05-31 11:35 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Well, since you asked....
I graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Biology in 3 years from Mayville State University, Mayville, ND.
I was accepted to the Univ of ND School of Medicine at age 19.
I did my residency at the Medical College of Wisconsin in General Surgery (5 yrs)
I did an honorary fellowship at Oxford University as a surgical registrar, under (Professor) Sir Peter Morris, at the John Radcliffe II Hospital, as part of my training.
I completed a one year fellowship in Transplantation at Georgetown University in Washington DC.
I practiced General, vascular, and trauma surgery for 3 years prior to my transplant fellowship.
I started the first transplant program in ND (Fargo) and performed the state's first transplant in 1989. In addition to the kidney program, I continued practicing general, trauma, and vascular surgery.
An injury that involved a severed ulnar nerve in my hand forced me to quit operating in 1998.
Subsequent to that, I taught med school for two years, followed by 10 years as a medical investigator for the PRACS Institute in Fargo, contract research organization (CRO) in the area of pharmaceutical research. During that time, I also was active in primary care medicine, including ER, and remain active on that on a part time basis.
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Too busy outside!
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| Bear - 2016-05-31 9:51 PM Well, since you asked.... I graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Biology in 3 years from Mayville State University, Mayville, ND. I was accepted to the Univ of ND School of Medicine at age 19. I did my residency at the Medical College of Wisconsin in General Surgery (5 yrs) I did an honorary fellowship at Oxford University as a surgical registrar, under (Professor) Sir Peter Morris, at the John Radcliffe II Hospital, as part of my training. I completed a one year fellowship in Transplantation at Georgetown University in Washington DC. I practiced General, vascular, and trauma surgery for 3 years prior to my transplant fellowship. I started the first transplant program in ND (Fargo) and performed the state's first transplant in 1989. In addition to the kidney program, I continued practicing general, trauma, and vascular surgery. An injury that involved a severed ulnar nerve in my hand forced me to quit operating in 1998. Subsequent to that, I taught med school for two years, followed by 10 years as a medical investigator for the PRACS Institute in Fargo, contract research organization (CRO) in the area of pharmaceutical research. During that time, I also was active in primary care medicine, including ER, and remain active on that on a part time basis.
OK, so that explains why you are a bit outdated when it comes to the application of alternative therapies. Docs from your generation have had a hard time with this subject, I get where you are coming from. Still don't agree with it, and never will, but I understand your mindset and have had to work around folks from your era before- | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | So, as you can see, your assertions that I have "little education" aren't factually correct. I've been a doctor for 37 years.
Congratulations on your accomplishements in massage. I stand corrected. You are certified. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-05-31 11:54 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:51 PM Well, since you asked.... I graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Biology in 3 years from Mayville State University, Mayville, ND. I was accepted to the Univ of ND School of Medicine at age 19. I did my residency at the Medical College of Wisconsin in General Surgery (5 yrs) I did an honorary fellowship at Oxford University as a surgical registrar, under (Professor) Sir Peter Morris, at the John Radcliffe II Hospital, as part of my training. I completed a one year fellowship in Transplantation at Georgetown University in Washington DC. I practiced General, vascular, and trauma surgery for 3 years prior to my transplant fellowship. I started the first transplant program in ND (Fargo) and performed the state's first transplant in 1989. In addition to the kidney program, I continued practicing general, trauma, and vascular surgery. An injury that involved a severed ulnar nerve in my hand forced me to quit operating in 1998. Subsequent to that, I taught med school for two years, followed by 10 years as a medical investigator for the PRACS Institute in Fargo, contract research organization (CRO) in the area of pharmaceutical research. During that time, I also was active in primary care medicine, including ER, and remain active on that on a part time basis.
OK, so that explains why you are a bit outdated when it comes to the application of alternative therapies. Docs from your generation have had a hard time with this subject, I get where you are coming from. Still don't agree with it, and never will, but I understand your mindset and have had to work around folks from your era before-
Yes, and I have taught people from your generation and your mindset before. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | "Outdated" probably isn't the word I would use to describe my approach to "alternative medicine". I prefer healthy skepticism, backed by a tendency to rely on sound science and peer reviewed scientific literature. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 10:02 PM So, as you can see, your assertions that I have "little education" aren't factually correct. I've been a doctor for 37 years. Congratulations on your accomplishements in massage. I stand corrected. You are certified.
Holy cow- (I could say alot more here, but I won't). So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist? This is where I think we might need to start........ I'll go slow- | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 10:14 PM "Outdated" probably isn't the word I would use to describe my approach to "alternative medicine". I prefer healthy skepticism, backed by a tendency to rely on sound science and peer reviewed scientific literature.
It's the word I would use- and I like it | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 10:08 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 11:54 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 9:51 PM Well, since you asked.... I graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Biology in 3 years from Mayville State University, Mayville, ND. I was accepted to the Univ of ND School of Medicine at age 19. I did my residency at the Medical College of Wisconsin in General Surgery (5 yrs) I did an honorary fellowship at Oxford University as a surgical registrar, under (Professor) Sir Peter Morris, at the John Radcliffe II Hospital, as part of my training. I completed a one year fellowship in Transplantation at Georgetown University in Washington DC. I practiced General, vascular, and trauma surgery for 3 years prior to my transplant fellowship. I started the first transplant program in ND (Fargo) and performed the state's first transplant in 1989. In addition to the kidney program, I continued practicing general, trauma, and vascular surgery. An injury that involved a severed ulnar nerve in my hand forced me to quit operating in 1998. Subsequent to that, I taught med school for two years, followed by 10 years as a medical investigator for the PRACS Institute in Fargo, contract research organization (CRO) in the area of pharmaceutical research. During that time, I also was active in primary care medicine, including ER, and remain active on that on a part time basis. OK, so that explains why you are a bit outdated when it comes to the application of alternative therapies. Docs from your generation have had a hard time with this subject, I get where you are coming from. Still don't agree with it, and never will, but I understand your mindset and have had to work around folks from your era before- Yes, and I have taught people from your generation and your mindset before.
eta: this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert." Goals and dreams- that's what it's all about......
Edited by trickster j 2016-06-01 12:20 AM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:14 AM
Bear - 2016-05-31 10:02 PM So, as you can see, your assertions that I have "little education" aren't factually correct. I've been a doctor for 37 years. Congratulations on your accomplishements in massage. I stand corrected. You are certified.
Holy cow- (I could say alot more here, but I won't). So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist? This is where I think we might need to start........ I'll go slow-
What is a "human vascular nerve specialist"? Is that an alternative medicine term?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | trickster j - 2016-05-31 10:27 PM
NJJ - 2016-05-31 7:14 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam?
OK, so in 2001 I went through a year long course in equine massage, this was so long ago I can't specifically remember exact training hours, but there were 4 modules to go through with the final one containing a complete dissection. There was ALOT of anatomy involved in this course. There were written exams each week and final practical exams at the end of each module which required evaluating, treating and reassessing our subjects. This training earned me my Certification in Equine Massage, I went to this school in Loveland, CO and had the honor of being taught by not only the original founder of Equitouch (the program has drastically changed in the past 15 years) as well as Dave McLean who was one of the first equine chiros in our part of the country.
In 2006 I had a serious shoulder injury that made it very difficult (impossible) to work on horses as physically as I had before, and so I discovered the magic of microcurrent therapy- of which there is plenty of scientific research discussings the benefits of beginning in 1970 with the first machines which were called the Acuscope, to which they later added the Myoscope (name later changed to Myopulse) and then the Proscope 360 came shortly after these units, along with the Precision, MENS Miva and a few others whose names escape me right now. 30 years forward we have more technologically advanced and far more user-friendly machines- but that's another subject. So yes, I am a certified microcurrent therapist as well- and this also involved an exam, practicum and field study.
In 2011 I met Jim Masterson, who is the author of "Beyond Horse Massage" and has been the official equine therpist for the USET. His website is www.mastersonmethod.com if you are interested to know more about him. His practitioner program consists of an initial weekend training followed by a 7 day advanced training, followed by a mimimum of a year of practical training consisting of 3 blocks of 15 case studies followed up with three weekends of hands on training with a certified coach. This program also contained an intensive anatomy course- which I happily whizzed through because of my previous anatomy education. Finally, when the field study and anatomy courses are completed, there is a 3-day finishing course where you work one on one with Jim and learn more advanced techniques and variations. I cranked my way through Jim's certification process- but it generally takes over a year to complete, I worked my arse off and completed it in one.
In the meantime, I have been to Dr. Deb Bennett's 5-day dissection course, studied the works of Dr. Daniel Kamen, April Battles, and many, many more. And previous to my shoulder injury, I had been a personal trainer (yes ACSM and AFAA certified) for 15 years, which made the anatomy and biomechanic elements easy for me to catch on too. I was also a Johnny G. certfied Spinning Instructor, step aerobic and kickboxing certified as well- oh yes, and of course certified in CPR.
I currently am working on my masters degree in professional counseling through Grand Canyon University, my goal is to be a Certified Equine Psychotherapist.
Previous to all of this, I have been invloved with horses my entire life and have been blessed to be able to train under such legends as Peggy Cummings and Sally Swift- I've also attended numerous horsemanship, training, barrel racing, roping, reining, etc. clinics because I feel that I can never learn enough and that most everyone (even those without PhD's!) can offer me something to benefit my endeavours.
eta: I completely forgot that I have a 2-year associates degree from Central Wyoming College in Equine Science- funny this accomplishment is the one that I value the least!
So enough about me- how about you and Bear?
I'd hire you if you lived closer | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-05-31 10:35 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:14 AM Bear - 2016-05-31 10:02 PM So, as you can see, your assertions that I have "little education" aren't factually correct. I've been a doctor for 37 years. Congratulations on your accomplishements in massage. I stand corrected. You are certified. Holy cow- (I could say alot more here, but I won't). So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist? This is where I think we might need to start........ I'll go slow- What is a "human vascular nerve specialist"? Is that an alternative medicine term?
eta: I am going to sleep- go ahead and continue to try to ridicule me- lol- it's been fun! I look forward to catching up with you over coffee tomorrow morning!
Edited by trickster j 2016-06-01 12:59 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:54 AM
Bear - 2016-05-31 10:35 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:14 AM Bear - 2016-05-31 10:02 PM So, as you can see, your assertions that I have "little education" aren't factually correct. I've been a doctor for 37 years. Congratulations on your accomplishements in massage. I stand corrected. You are certified. Holy cow- (I could say alot more here, but I won't). So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist? This is where I think we might need to start........ I'll go slow- What is a "human vascular nerve specialist"? Is that an alternative medicine term?
I'm guessing you meant neurologist. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| ndcowgirl - 2016-05-31 10:58 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:54 AM Bear - 2016-05-31 10:35 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 12:14 AM Bear - 2016-05-31 10:02 PM So, as you can see, your assertions that I have "little education" aren't factually correct. I've been a doctor for 37 years. Congratulations on your accomplishements in massage. I stand corrected. You are certified. Holy cow- (I could say alot more here, but I won't). So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist? This is where I think we might need to start........ I'll go slow- What is a "human vascular nerve specialist"? Is that an alternative medicine term? I'm guessing you meant neurologist.
Thank you! Yes- that would be a better term- sorry- it's been a long day! Let's catch up in the morning- no cheap shots while I'm sleeping Bear! Have a great night!  | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| ndcowgirl - 2016-05-31 10:52 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 10:27 PM NJJ - 2016-05-31 7:14 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam?
OK, so in 2001 I went through a year long course in equine massage, this was so long ago I can't specifically remember exact training hours, but there were 4 modules to go through with the final one containing a complete dissection. There was ALOT of anatomy involved in this course. There were written exams each week and final practical exams at the end of each module which required evaluating, treating and reassessing our subjects. This training earned me my Certification in Equine Massage, I went to this school in Loveland, CO and had the honor of being taught by not only the original founder of Equitouch (the program has drastically changed in the past 15 years) as well as Dave McLean who was one of the first equine chiros in our part of the country.
In 2006 I had a serious shoulder injury that made it very difficult (impossible) to work on horses as physically as I had before, and so I discovered the magic of microcurrent therapy- of which there is plenty of scientific research discussings the benefits of beginning in 1970 with the first machines which were called the Acuscope, to which they later added the Myoscope (name later changed to Myopulse) and then the Proscope 360 came shortly after these units, along with the Precision, MENS Miva and a few others whose names escape me right now. 30 years forward we have more technologically advanced and far more user-friendly machines- but that's another subject. So yes, I am a certified microcurrent therapist as well- and this also involved an exam, practicum and field study.
In 2011 I met Jim Masterson, who is the author of "Beyond Horse Massage" and has been the official equine therpist for the USET. His website is www.mastersonmethod.com if you are interested to know more about him. His practitioner program consists of an initial weekend training followed by a 7 day advanced training, followed by a mimimum of a year of practical training consisting of 3 blocks of 15 case studies followed up with three weekends of hands on training with a certified coach. This program also contained an intensive anatomy course- which I happily whizzed through because of my previous anatomy education. Finally, when the field study and anatomy courses are completed, there is a 3-day finishing course where you work one on one with Jim and learn more advanced techniques and variations. I cranked my way through Jim's certification process- but it generally takes over a year to complete, I worked my arse off and completed it in one.
In the meantime, I have been to Dr. Deb Bennett's 5-day dissection course, studied the works of Dr. Daniel Kamen, April Battles, and many, many more. And previous to my shoulder injury, I had been a personal trainer (yes ACSM and AFAA certified) for 15 years, which made the anatomy and biomechanic elements easy for me to catch on too. I was also a Johnny G. certfied Spinning Instructor, step aerobic and kickboxing certified as well- oh yes, and of course certified in CPR.
I currently am working on my masters degree in professional counseling through Grand Canyon University, my goal is to be a Certified Equine Psychotherapist.
Previous to all of this, I have been invloved with horses my entire life and have been blessed to be able to train under such legends as Peggy Cummings and Sally Swift- I've also attended numerous horsemanship, training, barrel racing, roping, reining, etc. clinics because I feel that I can never learn enough and that most everyone (even those without PhD's!) can offer me something to benefit my endeavours.
eta: I completely forgot that I have a 2-year associates degree from Central Wyoming College in Equine Science- funny this accomplishment is the one that I value the least!
So enough about me- how about you and Bear?
I'd hire you if you lived closer
Thank you!! | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | trickster j - 2016-05-31 10:30 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 7:13 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam? Um, I'll have you know that I've had more education than you could even dream of having. So, you won't answer my question about your certification process. Your timing of bowing out of this discussion is evidently fortuitous. You tried to belittle me for posting something off the internet, yet, my understanding is the "Masterson Method", in which you are certified, is a course available online. How do you reconcile this hypocrisy?
eta: if I don't respond right away don't think I am "bowing out" of the discussion- I see that this is going to take some time to get through with you and I am committed to finishing it to the end. I have to work on my paper for school- (gasp- online!! LOL). I have to describe and analyze neoanalytic, Jungian and Individual Psychology Theory Applications. Spending time with you here of course would be much more fun- but it's not doing much to further my education, it's just very amusing is all. Thanks for your time- I am eagerly awaiting to see how you would like to bash me next-
edited to add: Unfortunately your "condescending tone" towards others will get you nowhere in trying to educate.......
Edited by NJJ 2016-06-01 6:43 AM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| NJJ - 2016-06-01 4:39 AM trickster j - 2016-05-31 10:30 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 7:13 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 9:05 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:48 PM trickster j - 2016-05-31 8:17 PM Bear - 2016-05-31 6:14 PM This is from a site called Quackwatch: 3. What are its membership requirements? Is scientific expertise required—or just a willingness to pay dues? An organization open to almost anyone may be perfectly respectable (like the American Association for the Advancement of Science), but don't let the fact that an individual belongs to it impress you. The International Academy of Nutritional Consultants, the American Association of Nutritional Consultants, the National Academy of Research Biochemists, and the International Association of Therapeutic Specialists issue attractive certificates, but their only requirement for "professional membership" has been payment of a modest fee. Some "institutes," "research" centers, and voluntary organizations are simply names adopted by an individual or a few people who wish to make their commercial activities sound more respectable. The National Academy of Sports Medicine, for example, began as a private corporation used for marketing dubious products; and the "Noble Research Society" merely marketed a quack device. OK, so you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
eta: OK, now you are just making me crabby......... if you want to play the science game get some scientific sources here to discuss- omg More keywords, straight from the playbook: " narrow minded" (again ) and "uneducated" ( again ) Explain your certification process. What's required? Who puts on the exam? Is there an exam? Um, I'll have you know that I've had more education than you could even dream of having. So, you won't answer my question about your certification process. Your timing of bowing out of this discussion is evidently fortuitous. You tried to belittle me for posting something off the internet, yet, my understanding is the "Masterson Method", in which you are certified, is a course available online. How do you reconcile this hypocrisy?
eta: if I don't respond right away don't think I am "bowing out" of the discussion- I see that this is going to take some time to get through with you and I am committed to finishing it to the end. I have to work on my paper for school- (gasp- online!! LOL). I have to describe and analyze neoanalytic, Jungian and Individual Psychology Theory Applications. Spending time with you here of course would be much more fun- but it's not doing much to further my education, it's just very amusing is all. Thanks for your time- I am eagerly awaiting to see how you would like to bash me next-
edited to add: Unfortunately your "condescending tone" towards others will get you nowhere in trying to educate.......
Thank you! I changed my font color because we use pretty much the same one - lol. Yes I do have many years of experience and I hold reputable certifications. I am not condescending- anyone who knows me will tell you I am anything but condescending. The only people I can get rude with are those like Bear who like to bully good people around- that does not sit well with me. Even though I know that my efforts here have made no impact on him personally, there are others who have been following this post and are hopefully finding something of value in it. I honestly think that you, he and I could find plenty that we have in common- as far as detesting those who rip others off with unethical practices and/or gimmicks. But unfortunately, the certification process as a whole was attacked, so of course I would take immediate offense, since as you have learned, I am a certified professional with goals of learning more and achieving additional certifications of value.
This whole post went off topic and I was going to apologize to the OP before I went to bed last night- but then I remembered Bear was the OP and figured that he had undoubtedly expected a disagreement when he posted Ramey's article. He knows there are alot of us here who use alternative therapies- (and why no one else who uses them has stepped up I do not know, unless they have tried to reason with him before to no avail). Anyway, I've got lots to do today- not like yesterday lol, so I won't be around much on here today. Thanks for the response, and have a great rest of the week! | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1182
Location: Do I hear Banjos? | trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:13 AM
I am not condescending- anyone who knows me will tell you I am anything but condescending. The only people I can get rude with are those like Bear who like to bully good people around- that does not sit well with me. Even though I know that my efforts here have made no impact on him personally, there are others who have been following this post and are hopefully finding something of value in it. I honestly think that you, he and I could find plenty that we have in common- as far as detesting those who rip others off with unethical practices and/or gimmicks. But unfortunately, the certification process as a whole was attacked, so of course I would take immediate offense, since as you have learned, I am a certified professional with goals of learning more and achieving additional certifications of value.
This whole post went off topic and I was going to apologize to the OP before I went to bed last night- but then I remembered Bear was the OP and figured that he had undoubtedly expected a disagreement when he posted Ramey's article. He knows there are alot of us here who use alternative therapies- (and why no one else who uses them has stepped up I do not know, unless they have tried to reason with him before to no avail). Anyway, I've got lots to do today- not like yesterday lol, so I won't be around much on here today. Thanks for the response, and have a great rest of the week!
Yes....you do come off as EXTREMELY condescending on this and other threads. I do not know you or anyone else on here personally...have no dog in this fight...but I think despite your education and knowledge...you lack some degree of self awareness.
You took Dr. Ramey's stance as a direct attack on your certifications...I didn't see that as the good doctor's point at all. Perhaps you are being unnecessarily defensive...when in reality I would guess from other statements you have made...that you don't approve of or value huckster sham "certifications" any more than he does.
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | I do not have a "dog in this fight" either, however, I DO know a few really good equine vets that no longer look at horses because the horse owners come with the horses-I find that very alarming in the fact that "internet vet info" is making, trained (and most very accomplished) vets turn away from money from horse owners. It is very irritating to me that a few bad apples (horse owners) have made MY life miserable when/if I need expert care for my horses......
One should NEVER bite the hand that feeds them so to speak-there are things ONLY a vet can do and it would be very wise not to completely belittle their knowledge OR training.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nice try, Trickster, but I didn't "bully" anyone on this thread. I posted Ramey's article because it was funny, and I thought it was accurate. You jumped right out of the box with a litany of criticisms toward him, to the extent that I concluded Ramey's musings struck a nerve in you. In the end, you pulled out a common, last-ditch tool when you called me a "bully". You made references to my limited education, lack of an open mind, my age group, and went on to proclaim your intention to share our exchange with your therapy group. You even pressed me to list my educational background.
You clearly listed your training which served to validate your certification, but Ramey's point was to shine a light on the question on the meaning of "certified"......by whom, how, by whose standards, etc.... It's one thing to be board certified in veterinary medicine, and quite another to be "certified" in some dubious alternative treatment modality or device. I'm quite sure that many very well trained, highly qualified vets are more than frustrated with their having to deal with increasing numbers of "certified" experts whose professionalism and understanding more closely resembles Amway than real science. | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be |  | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM
GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.
And how is being a vet unique to any other knowledge intensive profession? I did not say that to run down vets or new vets, especially. It is simple, my point was to say that certification doesn't mean anything to me. Experience and quality of performance do. This is true of any age group of professionals and not just vets. It is impossible to be a top vet within 5 years of vet school. Sorry, that is a fact. It wasn't meant to belittle you. It was meant to prove a point that experience matters much much more than a degree. This is true in every walk of life. If you want to be great at something, it will take a long time and experience.....You name it from horse training to investment banking. Most everyone works up the latter, that is how it should be. I don't know of any young person that fully realizes how little they know. You will likely find that out as time goes on. It never stops, if you are honest with yourself. So no I don't feel sorry for you. I don't think you should feel bothered by my post. I encourage you to go forward and be the best you can be, then you will be one of the good vets one day. It would be no different what you were studying to be, on the job is where you become successful or not. It really is 90% of your education in the long run. This is not meant to be negative toward you, but honestly finishing vet school does not and should not be any reason to expect any kind of salary. It only proves my point that your worth as a vet is not determined by that very hard earned diploma. As always, it is what you do with a degree (ANY degree) that matters.
I use vets almost everyday. I respect them and value them. I value the intense training at school and on the job they get. Sometimes that training does make them less attentive to other non vet specialist. I think that is what we are seeing in the article. The author has a very valid main point, but I just go further to say that no certification means too much to me, though yes some online certifications or weekend equine message is absolutely laughable. That is no doubt the point of the article, in which I do agree.
Edited by Tdove 2016-06-01 9:38 AM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM
Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them.
See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with.
Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box".
I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-06-01 7:18 AM Nice try, Trickster, but I didn't "bully" anyone on this thread. I posted Ramey's article because it was funny, and I thought it was accurate. You jumped right out of the box with a litany of criticisms toward him, to the extent that I concluded Ramey's musings struck a nerve in you. In the end, you pulled out a common, last-ditch tool when you called me a "bully". You made references to my limited education, lack of an open mind, my age group, and went on to proclaim your intention to share our exchange with your therapy group. You even pressed me to list my educational background. You clearly listed your training which served to validate your certification, but Ramey's point was to shine a light on the question on the meaning of "certified"......by whom, how, by whose standards, etc.... It's one thing to be board certified in veterinary medicine, and quite another to be "certified" in some dubious alternative treatment modality or device. I'm quite sure that many very well trained, highly qualified vets are more than frustrated with their having to deal with increasing numbers of "certified" experts whose professionalism and understanding more closely resembles Amway than real science. Lol Bear- this is not the "end" nor was my comparison of you to a "bully" a last ditch effort- I just have a busier day today than I had yesterday so won't be able to respond as readily. :)
eta: thanks for the brief summary of how I responded yesterday, I did in fact fulfill my intention of posting this thread to my therapy groups- which has now taken on an interesting life of its own! Thanks for giving us an interesting topic to discuss!
Edited by trickster j 2016-06-01 10:15 AM
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I have found this post very entertaining---thanks. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Bear - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with. Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box". I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this.
I don't think there has been a consensus on PRP declared yet, but that doesn't stop doctors from using something that obviously works in a lot of cases unless they are very rigid in their thinking. And while I agree that "in the box" thinkers have value, a vet I like very much falls in that category, you are doing yourself a disservice to stop there.
Anyway, I was just pointing out that a treatment that has become accepted as fairly mainstream in the last few years was poopooed upon as a waste of money by the instigator of this conversation. It may not have all the evidence needed for consensus YET, but from what I have seen, it's only a matter of getting it proven because the merit is there. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 10:44 AM
Bear - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with. Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box". I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this.
Anyway, I was just pointing out that a treatment that has become accepted as fairly mainstream in the last few years was poopooed upon as a waste of money by the instigator of this conversation. It may not have all the evidence needed for consensus YET, but from what I have seen, it's only a matter of getting it proven because the merit is there.
And, that is completely consistent with how I look at things. A lot of treatments "widely accepted as mainstream" prior to actually holding up to the scrutiny of scientific evaluation have gone by the wayside.
Just because the mainstream, including a lot of competent doctors, widely accept a given treatment, doesn't mean it's gospel. I can cite endless examples. Bleeding to let out "evil humors", drilling holes in skulls for headaches, thalidomide, numerous operations, and so forth.
Every year, it seems, medications formerly FDA approved, have been subsequently removed because of good studies that demonstrate a lack of efficacy or even safety.
I don't know what treatment you are suggesting I "poo pooed", but in that same remark you suggested it still might not be proven therapy.
I'm not ashamed to admit that many times in the course of my career I poo pooed a treatment modality, only to later change my mind as a result of good scientific study. I remember when laparoscopic gallbladder surgery was first introduced. I poo pooed it at first then as well. Two years later I was performing the operation routinely, as well as other operations. What changed my mind? Science and data.
I'm not ashamed of that...I'm proud.
Here's a remark you made that I find illustrative".....something that obviously works in a lot of cases." Think about that long and hard in the context of this discussion.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Tdove - 2016-06-01 9:23 AM
casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM
GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.
And how is being a vet unique to any other knowledge intensive profession? I did not say that to run down vets or new vets, especially. It is simple, my point was to say that certification doesn't mean anything to me. Experience and quality of performance do. This is true of any age group of professionals and not just vets. It is impossible to be a top vet within 5 years of vet school. Sorry, that is a fact. It wasn't meant to belittle you. It was meant to prove a point that experience matters much much more than a degree. This is true in every walk of life. If you want to be great at something, it will take a long time and experience.....You name it from horse training to investment banking. Most everyone works up the latter, that is how it should be. I don't know of any young person that fully realizes how little they know. You will likely find that out as time goes on. It never stops, if you are honest with yourself. So no I don't feel sorry for you. I don't think you should feel bothered by my post. I encourage you to go forward and be the best you can be, then you will be one of the good vets one day. It would be no different what you were studying to be, on the job is where you become successful or not. It really is 90% of your education in the long run. This is not meant to be negative toward you, but honestly finishing vet school does not and should not be any reason to expect any kind of salary. It only proves my point that your worth as a vet is not determined by that very hard earned diploma. As always, it is what you do with a degree (ANY degree ) that matters.
I use vets almost everyday. I respect them and value them. I value the intense training at school and on the job they get. Sometimes that training does make them less attentive to other non vet specialist. I think that is what we are seeing in the article. The author has a very valid main point, but I just go further to say that no certification means too much to me, though yes some online certifications or weekend equine message is absolutely laughable. That is no doubt the point of the article, in which I do agree.
What bothered me about your post is the assumption that you think we assume we know it all when we graduate. I was clarifying that we very much know that we have a long way to go. I don't disagree with the need for experience but I do disagree with your opinion that we graduate thinking we know more than we do, because we graduate knowing how far we still have to go. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Bear - 2016-06-01 12:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 10:44 AM Bear - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with. Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box". I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this.
Anyway, I was just pointing out that a treatment that has become accepted as fairly mainstream in the last few years was poopooed upon as a waste of money by the instigator of this conversation. It may not have all the evidence needed for consensus YET, but from what I have seen, it's only a matter of getting it proven because the merit is there. And, that is completely consistent with how I look at things. A lot of treatments "widely accepted as mainstream" prior to actually holding up to the scrutiny of scientific evaluation have gone by the wayside. Just because the mainstream, including a lot of competent doctors, widely accept a given treatment, doesn't mean it's gospel. I can cite endless examples. Bleeding to let out "evil humors", drilling holes in skulls for headaches, thalidomide, numerous operations, and so forth. Every year, it seems, medications formerly FDA approved, have been subsequently removed because of good studies that demonstrate a lack of efficacy or even safety. I don't know what treatment you are suggesting I "poo pooed", but in that same remark you suggested it still might not be proven therapy. I'm not ashamed to admit that many times in the course of my career I poo pooed a treatment modality, only to later change my mind as a result of good scientific study. I remember when laparoscopic gallbladder surgery was first introduced. I poo pooed it at first then as well. Two years later I was performing the operation routinely, as well as other operations. What changed my mind? Science and data. I'm not ashamed of that...I'm proud. Here's a remark you made that I find illustrative".....something that obviously works in a lot of cases." Think about that long and hard in the context of this discussion.
You just admitted to being an instigator. Haha! I was actually referring to Dr Ramey there. And I see nothing wrong with that last statement. Can you explain? | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 1:00 PM
Bear - 2016-06-01 12:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 10:44 AM Bear - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with. Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box". I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this.
Anyway, I was just pointing out that a treatment that has become accepted as fairly mainstream in the last few years was poopooed upon as a waste of money by the instigator of this conversation. It may not have all the evidence needed for consensus YET, but from what I have seen, it's only a matter of getting it proven because the merit is there. And, that is completely consistent with how I look at things. A lot of treatments "widely accepted as mainstream" prior to actually holding up to the scrutiny of scientific evaluation have gone by the wayside. Just because the mainstream, including a lot of competent doctors, widely accept a given treatment, doesn't mean it's gospel. I can cite endless examples. Bleeding to let out "evil humors", drilling holes in skulls for headaches, thalidomide, numerous operations, and so forth. Every year, it seems, medications formerly FDA approved, have been subsequently removed because of good studies that demonstrate a lack of efficacy or even safety. I don't know what treatment you are suggesting I "poo pooed", but in that same remark you suggested it still might not be proven therapy. I'm not ashamed to admit that many times in the course of my career I poo pooed a treatment modality, only to later change my mind as a result of good scientific study. I remember when laparoscopic gallbladder surgery was first introduced. I poo pooed it at first then as well. Two years later I was performing the operation routinely, as well as other operations. What changed my mind? Science and data. I'm not ashamed of that...I'm proud. Here's a remark you made that I find illustrative".....something that obviously works in a lot of cases." Think about that long and hard in the context of this discussion.
If something "obviously works in a lot of cases", it is still anecdotal until tested with appropriate controls. Thus, it would fall into the category of holistic or unproven alternative treatment.
Alternative treatment, to me, is a label that the "natural" community has hijacked. Alternative medicine is another avenue, usually proven but still new; like Bear's example of the gallbladder surgery. It started as new and an alternative to the invasive, traditional surgery. But with appropriate testing and data, it became routine.
Make sense? It can get convoluted while unraveling some of these terms .... | |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX |  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I thought you were referring to me when you spoke of the "instigator". After all, I did start the thread. Give yourself a pat on the back for the "gotcha" if it makes you feel better.
As to that last sentence you asked about, on the one hand you suggest the therapy you were talking about is definitely effective, but you admit that you can't say whether it's been proved through careful study. That's like saying, "I know eye-of-newt is a cure for moon blindness because I gave it to my mare and she's better". | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | lindseylou2290 - 2016-06-01 1:27 PM
Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 1:00 PM
Bear - 2016-06-01 12:34 PM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 10:44 AM Bear - 2016-06-01 10:04 AM Three 4 Luck - 2016-06-01 9:29 AM Dr Ramey is an entertaining storyteller, but he is a very in the box thinker, and I have seen him dismiss things other vets and MDs are using very successfully, like PRP. I asked him about that once, and his answer was basically if your vet is having so many success stories maybe she should be writing up case studies. Maybe she has better things to do?
Anyway, I take his FB posts with a grain of salt when I run across them. See, now I look at it differently than you. I'm assuming you are referring to platelet-rich therapy for ligament/tendon injuries in horses. I'll admit that there is a lot of excitement and optimism over PRP therapy, but I'm not sure there is yet a consensus on it, owing to a lack of large, randomized, controlled clinical trials. I emphasize that it does appear promising, however to a purist, the jury is still out. At least that's my understanding of where we're at. Maybe this issue has been settled and I'm just unaware of it, so correct me if I'm wrong. The last time I read about it, that's what I walked away with. Medicine, including veterinary medicine needs people like Dr Ramey to hold the line and insist on adherence to certain unwavering principles, in my opinion. There's something to be said for people who think "inside the box". I'd love to hear some opinions of some vets on this.
Anyway, I was just pointing out that a treatment that has become accepted as fairly mainstream in the last few years was poopooed upon as a waste of money by the instigator of this conversation. It may not have all the evidence needed for consensus YET, but from what I have seen, it's only a matter of getting it proven because the merit is there. And, that is completely consistent with how I look at things. A lot of treatments "widely accepted as mainstream" prior to actually holding up to the scrutiny of scientific evaluation have gone by the wayside. Just because the mainstream, including a lot of competent doctors, widely accept a given treatment, doesn't mean it's gospel. I can cite endless examples. Bleeding to let out "evil humors", drilling holes in skulls for headaches, thalidomide, numerous operations, and so forth. Every year, it seems, medications formerly FDA approved, have been subsequently removed because of good studies that demonstrate a lack of efficacy or even safety. I don't know what treatment you are suggesting I "poo pooed", but in that same remark you suggested it still might not be proven therapy. I'm not ashamed to admit that many times in the course of my career I poo pooed a treatment modality, only to later change my mind as a result of good scientific study. I remember when laparoscopic gallbladder surgery was first introduced. I poo pooed it at first then as well. Two years later I was performing the operation routinely, as well as other operations. What changed my mind? Science and data. I'm not ashamed of that...I'm proud. Here's a remark you made that I find illustrative".....something that obviously works in a lot of cases." Think about that long and hard in the context of this discussion.
If something "obviously works in a lot of cases", it is still anecdotal until tested with appropriate controls. Thus, it would fall into the category of holistic or unproven alternative treatment.
Alternative treatment, to me, is a label that the "natural" community has hijacked. Alternative medicine is another avenue, usually proven but still new; like Bear's example of the gallbladder surgery. It started as new and an alternative to the invasive, traditional surgery. But with appropriate testing and data, it became routine.
Make sense? It can get convoluted while unraveling some of these terms ....
Thank you. You said it much better than I did. Too much hot sun, I guess. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | casualdust07 - 2016-06-01 12:41 PM
Tdove - 2016-06-01 9:23 AM
casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM
GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.
And how is being a vet unique to any other knowledge intensive profession? I did not say that to run down vets or new vets, especially. It is simple, my point was to say that certification doesn't mean anything to me. Experience and quality of performance do. This is true of any age group of professionals and not just vets. It is impossible to be a top vet within 5 years of vet school. Sorry, that is a fact. It wasn't meant to belittle you. It was meant to prove a point that experience matters much much more than a degree. This is true in every walk of life. If you want to be great at something, it will take a long time and experience.....You name it from horse training to investment banking. Most everyone works up the latter, that is how it should be. I don't know of any young person that fully realizes how little they know. You will likely find that out as time goes on. It never stops, if you are honest with yourself. So no I don't feel sorry for you. I don't think you should feel bothered by my post. I encourage you to go forward and be the best you can be, then you will be one of the good vets one day. It would be no different what you were studying to be, on the job is where you become successful or not. It really is 90% of your education in the long run. This is not meant to be negative toward you, but honestly finishing vet school does not and should not be any reason to expect any kind of salary. It only proves my point that your worth as a vet is not determined by that very hard earned diploma. As always, it is what you do with a degree (ANY degree ) that matters.
I use vets almost everyday. I respect them and value them. I value the intense training at school and on the job they get. Sometimes that training does make them less attentive to other non vet specialist. I think that is what we are seeing in the article. The author has a very valid main point, but I just go further to say that no certification means too much to me, though yes some online certifications or weekend equine message is absolutely laughable. That is no doubt the point of the article, in which I do agree.
What bothered me about your post is the assumption that you think we assume we know it all when we graduate. I was clarifying that we very much know that we have a long way to go. I don't disagree with the need for experience but I do disagree with your opinion that we graduate thinking we know more than we do, because we graduate knowing how far we still have to go.
Except I made no such assumption. I never wrote or implied you or anyone else thought you knew everything. Those are two separate matters, altogether. I know more seasoned vets that think they know everything, than I have ever met those just starting. Now young horse trainers, just the opposite. Seasoned trainers realize they don't know everything and the young ones think that have all of it down. But now I'll probably get myself in trouble with that too ;) | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I find it interesting that many things are done on our horses way before they are introduced into human therapies. I can't remember how long ago injecting hocks was being done but 20 years is probably about right. Now if the human side would speed up and allow hylauronic acid be injected into human shoulders. | |
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| Bear - thank you for starting a very entertaining thread. BHW has gotten kinda boring lately. | |
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New Info Detective
Posts: 1551
| I'm curious Bear, do you yourself ever use a chiropractor or massage therapist?
Edited by Turner1 2016-06-01 3:58 PM
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| casualdust07 - 2016-06-01 12:41 PM
Tdove - 2016-06-01 9:23 AM
casualdust07 - 2016-05-31 8:36 PM
GLP - 2016-05-31 4:34 PM
Tdove - 2016-05-31 2:59 PM
I don't much think a vet certification is worth a darn either. There are a lot of vets that aren't very good. Experience goes a long way. No vet can be good at everything either. Certain vets are better at certain things, much of it to do with aptitude and experience. I wouldn't give a first year vet the time of day with my horse. Most have no idea how little they know. The same is true with most other things. I know non vet experts that are great at what they do, because they are focused on learning one thing and have gained the experience in doing it to be good at it. I have devoted a lot of time to equine nutrition, and I don't take much stock in a PhD in Equine Nutrition....they are the ones bringing us the junk food for horses. Many of the best dentist are non vets. Most vets are terrible dentist, and even worse nutritionist. Finally, Chiropractic services are best performed by a chiropractor. They do it for a living and experience and talent is what makes them good, not a vet degree. Seriously, a certification means little to me in any field. Mastery is dependent on skill and experience, no certification or bona fide degree alone provides this to you. It is just a starting place and in some cases is not necessary at all.
Amen to this!!!
Gosh this stabs my heart. If you only knew how we truly feel. I'm just starting my fourth year of vet school, and am waiting on an emergency to come in.. so I have a few minutes to respond.
Every day we feel stupid, or at least I do. Every day I'm surrounded by vets who have anywhere from 2-40+ years experience on me. They ask me questions, they probe my brain, they challenge me. I feel like an idiot 99% of the time. In NO way do we feel like we know everything. In NO way do we feel like experts. We are shaking in our boots trying to remember everything we are taught, trying to figure out how these senior vets are so calm and collected making life and death decisions on horses. We use up what little vacation time we have to visit more and more clinics so we can get as much experience as we get. We take a job first year out of school making anywhere from 20-30,000 for that first year. Can you imagine, having a doctorate degree, and making $25,000? High paying internships pay around $35,000 and are few and far between. We **** sure don't do it for the money, we do it because we have this crazy calling to try and help both animals and people. Associates are lucky to break into 6 figure incomes.
So, I'm not sure what 1st year out of school vets you are talking about.. but I can tell you, every single one I have met knows exactly where they stand, how much they don't know, and how far we have to go. So, I'm going to pretend I didn't read this and I'm going to keep plugging along, head low, taking in as much as I can being the low man on the totem pole.
And how is being a vet unique to any other knowledge intensive profession? I did not say that to run down vets or new vets, especially. It is simple, my point was to say that certification doesn't mean anything to me. Experience and quality of performance do. This is true of any age group of professionals and not just vets. It is impossible to be a top vet within 5 years of vet school. Sorry, that is a fact. It wasn't meant to belittle you. It was meant to prove a point that experience matters much much more than a degree. This is true in every walk of life. If you want to be great at something, it will take a long time and experience.....You name it from horse training to investment banking. Most everyone works up the latter, that is how it should be. I don't know of any young person that fully realizes how little they know. You will likely find that out as time goes on. It never stops, if you are honest with yourself. So no I don't feel sorry for you. I don't think you should feel bothered by my post. I encourage you to go forward and be the best you can be, then you will be one of the good vets one day. It would be no different what you were studying to be, on the job is where you become successful or not. It really is 90% of your education in the long run. This is not meant to be negative toward you, but honestly finishing vet school does not and should not be any reason to expect any kind of salary. It only proves my point that your worth as a vet is not determined by that very hard earned diploma. As always, it is what you do with a degree (ANY degree ) that matters.
I use vets almost everyday. I respect them and value them. I value the intense training at school and on the job they get. Sometimes that training does make them less attentive to other non vet specialist. I think that is what we are seeing in the article. The author has a very valid main point, but I just go further to say that no certification means too much to me, though yes some online certifications or weekend equine message is absolutely laughable. That is no doubt the point of the article, in which I do agree.
What bothered me about your post is the assumption that you think we assume we know it all when we graduate. I was clarifying that we very much know that we have a long way to go. I don't disagree with the need for experience but I do disagree with your opinion that we graduate thinking we know more than we do, because we graduate knowing how far we still have to go.
Not all of you. I've met some whoppers right of vet school. I like my veterinarians how AARP likes their membership- wrinkled, gray, and cranky. Those guys know what's up and don't jack around. They don't prance because they'll throw something out and they have nothing to prove because they own the whole hospital and can fire you as a client way before you can fire them as a vet. If you're lucky enough to win some of those guys to your side, your animals will only profit.
A young vet to me is someone younger than 50, and will be held in suspicion until proven otherwise.
For the record, (since I hold us youngsters in suspicion) I'm 31 years old, and I like proven facts as well. I do however, indulge in equine chiropractic care (only by an MD or DVM), equine massage (one guy, aged 70), and equine dentists (only by reference from competitors I respect). | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | My farrier who took a year long (every day) College Course (which is now two years long because the one year was too intense) to become a "Certified" Farrier, I also know someone who took a week long course and also became a "Certified" farrier. They are both "certified"; however one was through a College program and one was through a hosted farrier program at someones barn.
The problem with Certified is that Farrier #2 doesn't have nearly the same level of educational training that Farrier #1 has yet he can call himself a "Certified Farrier." Using Vets and Doctors for example you can not legally call yourself a doctor or a vet without completing your education and passing the required medical exams. Those exams are standardized and all doctors and vets coming out of school should have the same level of basic understanding as their peers. Some of course will have specialized training but the BASIC level of understanding should be the same among all graduates.
There is no standardize testing for Equine Massage Therapy, Chiropractic, Herbalist etc so while you may come across someone who has taken years of training and have a wealth of knowledge you may also get the individual who likes horses, has no background in horses but took a weekend course to become certified. Person A who has years of training and Person B who took a weekend course can both call themselves "certified" but the BASIC level of understanding will not be the same in both cases.
I believe in alternative therapies but I think that the Veterinarian association needs to move with the times and start standardized courses for alternative therapies. Then those calling themselves Certified should have the same basic level of understanding.
Edited by RunNitroRun 2016-06-01 4:46 PM
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| RunNitroRun - 2016-06-01 2:44 PM My farrier who took a year long (every day) College Course (which is now two years long because the one year was too intense) to become a "Certified" Farrier, I also know someone who took a week long course and also became a "Certified" farrier. They are both "certified"; however one was through a College program and one was through a hosted farrier program at someones barn. The problem with Certified is that Farrier #2 doesn't have nearly the same level of educational training that Farrier #1 has yet he can call himself a "Certified Farrier." Using Vets and Doctors for example you can not legally call yourself a doctor or a vet without completing your education and passing the required medical exams. Those exams are standardized and all doctors and vets coming out of school should have the same level of basic understanding as their peers. Some of course will have specialized training but the BASIC level of understanding should be the same among all graduates. There is no standardize testing for Equine Massage Therapy, Chiropractic, Herbalist etc so while you may come across someone who has taken years of training and have a wealth of knowledge you may also get the individual who likes horses, has no background in horses but took a weekend course to become certified. Person A who has years of training and Person B who took a weekend course can both call themselves "certified" but the BASIC level of understanding will not be the same in both cases. I believe in alternative therapies but I think that the Veterinarian association needs to move with the times and start standardized courses for alternative therapies. Then those calling themselves Certified should have the same basic level of understanding.
Hey there! That was the clearest and most practical explanation to this issue so far! I agree everything you said. I personally would love an extra classification to a certification that would show that a higher level of learning and practice had been achieved. There is a very wide range of aptitude within the single term, "certified." All a certification essentially means is that the certified person has met the standards set by the certifying agency. So unfortunately, this leaves it to the consumer to do their own investigation process to see if their certified specialist actually holds a reputable certificate from a reputable company and not just a weekend participation certificate. But- just because there are some certificates out there that aren't backed by an excellent standard, it does not mean that all awarded certificates are the same- that type of thinking is not only incorrect, but exceedingly critical and judgemental.
Nice post- thanks for coming on over! | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | Turner1 - 2016-06-01 3:56 PM
I'm curious Bear, do you yourself ever use a chiropractor or massage therapist?
Yes, I've used a chiropractor both for my horses as well as myself.
I definitely think they have a useful role. Generally speaking, we in medicine don't do a very good job with disorders of the spine and back pain in general. It's hard to find a good doctor who really takes the time to properly evaluate back pain....particularly low back pain.
I'm talking of the kind of pain due to either osteoarthritis or degenerative disc disease. Too many docs, I'm ashamed to say, simply hate seeing people with back pain, and when they do they can't wait to get the patient out the door. Now I will say, in defense of my colleagues, that there are reasons for this. A lot of people commonly use back pain as an excuse to get out of work, claim disability, or obtain narcotics. I could go on and on, but there's a capsule summary.
This is where I think a good chiropractor is absolute gold. Their #1 focus, by preference, is the spine. It's what they do. A good chiropractor knows red flags that should alert him to the possible presence of something more sinister masking as garden variety back pain, for example, metastatic breast cancer, expanding aortic aneurysm, or prostate cancer, to name just a few. As a medical doctor, having a good relationship with a conscientious, well trained chiropractor can be a Godsend.
As to massage therapists, I've never used one, but I sure could use one now. If I found a good one for my horses, I'd definitely give it a try, under the right circumstances. In my opinion, when it comes to something like massage therapy, word of mouth from a trusted friend would be more valuable to me than being "Certified". | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-06-01 3:30 PM Turner1 - 2016-06-01 3:56 PM I'm curious Bear, do you yourself ever use a chiropractor or massage therapist? Yes, I've used a chiropractor both for my horses as well as myself. I definitely think they have a useful role. Generally speaking, we in medicine don't do a very good job with disorders of the spine and back pain in general. It's hard to find a good doctor who really takes the time to properly evaluate back pain....particularly low back pain. I'm talking of the kind of pain due to either osteoarthritis or degenerative disc disease. Too many docs, I'm ashamed to say, simply hate seeing people with back pain, and when they do they can't wait to get the patient out the door. Now I will say, in defense of my colleagues, that there are reasons for this. A lot of people commonly use back pain as an excuse to get out of work, claim disability, or obtain narcotics. I could go on and on, but there's a capsule summary. This is where I think a good chiropractor is absolute gold. Their #1 focus, by preference, is the spine. It's what they do. A good chiropractor knows red flags that should alert him to the possible presence of something more sinister masking as garden variety back pain, for example, metastatic breast cancer, expanding aortic aneurysm, or prostate cancer, to name just a few. As a medical doctor, having a good relationship with a conscientious, well trained chiropractor can be a Godsend. As to massage therapists, I've never used one, but I sure could use one now. If I found a good one for my horses, I'd definitely give it a try, under the right circumstances. In my opinion, when it comes to something like massage therapy, word of mouth from a trusted friend would be more valuable to me than being "Certified".
Genrally speaking, is this the common consensus of orthopaedic doctors as well, or just those in the field you used to practice in? It seems a little judgemental is all.... can you explain how you are quaified to cast such a broad theory? | |
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Three in a Bikini
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This just keeps getting better and better... | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-06-01 6:19 PM
Bear - 2016-06-01 3:30 PM Turner1 - 2016-06-01 3:56 PM I'm curious Bear, do you yourself ever use a chiropractor or massage therapist? Yes, I've used a chiropractor both for my horses as well as myself. I definitely think they have a useful role. Generally speaking, we in medicine don't do a very good job with disorders of the spine and back pain in general. It's hard to find a good doctor who really takes the time to properly evaluate back pain....particularly low back pain. I'm talking of the kind of pain due to either osteoarthritis or degenerative disc disease. Too many docs, I'm ashamed to say, simply hate seeing people with back pain, and when they do they can't wait to get the patient out the door. Now I will say, in defense of my colleagues, that there are reasons for this. A lot of people commonly use back pain as an excuse to get out of work, claim disability, or obtain narcotics. I could go on and on, but there's a capsule summary. This is where I think a good chiropractor is absolute gold. Their #1 focus, by preference, is the spine. It's what they do. A good chiropractor knows red flags that should alert him to the possible presence of something more sinister masking as garden variety back pain, for example, metastatic breast cancer, expanding aortic aneurysm, or prostate cancer, to name just a few. As a medical doctor, having a good relationship with a conscientious, well trained chiropractor can be a Godsend. As to massage therapists, I've never used one, but I sure could use one now. If I found a good one for my horses, I'd definitely give it a try, under the right circumstances. In my opinion, when it comes to something like massage therapy, word of mouth from a trusted friend would be more valuable to me than being "Certified".
It's just my opinion/observation after 37 years in the business.
I just don't think we do a very good job in this particular area.
Now, having said that, there are lots of docs who do a good job, but not nearly enough. I just don't think most doctors like dealing with low back pain. Orthopedic consensus doesn't matter. Ortho docs seldom see the typical back pain patient as he/she walks in off the street. They see those who are particularly symptomatic and fail conservative treatment......at the most, 5-10 percent of patients presenting to the primary care doctor. There are a number of reasons why a lot of doctors dislike seeing people with back pain, as I pointed out. We are digressing here anyway. | |
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Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-06-01 5:15 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 6:19 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 3:30 PM Turner1 - 2016-06-01 3:56 PM I'm curious Bear, do you yourself ever use a chiropractor or massage therapist? Yes, I've used a chiropractor both for my horses as well as myself. I definitely think they have a useful role. Generally speaking, we in medicine don't do a very good job with disorders of the spine and back pain in general. It's hard to find a good doctor who really takes the time to properly evaluate back pain....particularly low back pain. I'm talking of the kind of pain due to either osteoarthritis or degenerative disc disease. Too many docs, I'm ashamed to say, simply hate seeing people with back pain, and when they do they can't wait to get the patient out the door. Now I will say, in defense of my colleagues, that there are reasons for this. A lot of people commonly use back pain as an excuse to get out of work, claim disability, or obtain narcotics. I could go on and on, but there's a capsule summary. This is where I think a good chiropractor is absolute gold. Their #1 focus, by preference, is the spine. It's what they do. A good chiropractor knows red flags that should alert him to the possible presence of something more sinister masking as garden variety back pain, for example, metastatic breast cancer, expanding aortic aneurysm, or prostate cancer, to name just a few. As a medical doctor, having a good relationship with a conscientious, well trained chiropractor can be a Godsend. As to massage therapists, I've never used one, but I sure could use one now. If I found a good one for my horses, I'd definitely give it a try, under the right circumstances. In my opinion, when it comes to something like massage therapy, word of mouth from a trusted friend would be more valuable to me than being "Certified". It's just my opinion/observation after 37 years in the business. I just don't think we do a very good job in this particular area. Now, having said that, there are lots of docs who do a good job, but not nearly enough. I just don't think most doctors like dealing with low back pain. Orthopedic consensus doesn't matter. Ortho docs seldom see the typical back pain patient as he/she walks in off the street. They see those who are particularly symptomatic and fail conservative treatment......at the most, 5-10 percent of patients presenting to the primary care doctor. There are a number of reasons why a lot of doctors dislike seeing people with back pain, as I pointed out. We are digressing here anyway.
OK, and again, as before, this is all your personal opinion- thank you for clarifying. As it was stated "we in medicine" I assumed you were including other individuals beliefs with yours- but these are your beliefs and opinons exclusively, is that correct?
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster.
Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you.
ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Edited by Bear 2016-06-01 8:27 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | Bear - 2016-06-01 8:18 PM
I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster.
Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you.
this is a subject that one of the Dr's I work with and I discuss frequently. Basically the conclusion is other than the ones that need surgury weight loss, chiro, message therapy and most importantly strenthing the core is usually a better option than a MD visit and a pill. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ndcowgirl - 2016-06-01 8:24 PM
Bear - 2016-06-01 8:18 PM
I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster.
Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you.
this is a subject that one of the Dr's I work with and I discuss frequently. Basically the conclusion is other than the ones that need surgury weight loss, chiro, message therapy and most importantly strenthing the core is usually a better option than a MD visit and a pill.
Exactly. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat-
Edited by trickster j 2016-06-01 8:53 PM
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | trickster j - 2016-06-01 6:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat-
I think most back pain could be alleviated by losing weight and cleansing the liver with fruits and veggies, but nobody wants to call out the elephant in the room including the dr. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:41 PM
Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing. Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat-
Well, I'm not sure I can clarify better than I have. I provided you with some information I remembered from that article where over 600 docs were surveyed, combined with a mental compilation of my colleagues over the years, of which there have been hundreds, as well as my personal opinion based on experience and everything taken together. What's your point?
I can't really offer much on the topic of equine back pain. My experience is limited to one horse, and the pain resolved after one chiro treatment. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | kwanatha - 2016-06-01 9:13 PM
trickster j - 2016-06-01 6:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat-
You're just trying to push my buttons, aren't you? I forgot all about those liver toxins and cleansing. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| Bear - 2016-06-01 7:20 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing. Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat- Well, I'm not sure I can clarify better than I have. I provided you with some information I remembered from that article where over 600 docs were surveyed, combined with a mental compilation of my colleagues over the years, of which there have been hundreds, as well as my personal opinion based on experience and everything taken together. What's your point? I can't really offer much on the topic of equine back pain. My experience is limited to one horse, and the pain resolved after one chiro treatment.
This has been a fun topic to toss around- but I am afraid it has ran it's course. I respect you for your education and your expertise in the field of medicine, even though I didn't express it previously- you asked if there were any certified experts here on BHW and yes, there is at least one, and it is me. I am pretty sure I've proven that by now. Thanks for the chit chat -
eta: I feel this is an appropriate moment for me to step away from this, I think I've covered my arse pretty well!
Edited by trickster j 2016-06-01 10:11 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Word of the day: Asseveration | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | kwanatha - 2016-06-01 9:13 PM
trickster j - 2016-06-01 6:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat-
bear did agree with my post about human back pain except in surgical cases most back pain needs chiro, message therapist, weight loss and strenthing the core muscles
Edited by ndcowgirl 2016-06-01 10:46 PM
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | ndcowgirl - 2016-06-01 8:45 PM
kwanatha - 2016-06-01 9:13 PM
trickster j - 2016-06-01 6:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat-
bear did agree with my post about human back pain except in surgical cases most back pain needs chiro, message therapist, weight loss and strenthing the core muscles
actually Bear took what I said a little wrong. I do think people need to cleanse but not like most think. Just cut out junk and eat fruit and veggies and loose weight and many will have less back pain. i was laughing that the doctors don't want to come out and say hey you are fat and all clogged up with the crap you are putting in your body and that is why your back hurts. I also think that a good massage is very good to help cleansing. chiro when done right is awesome too | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5290
| LOL My doctor of 15 years has NO PROBLEM telling me how it is up front. LOL I went in and thought I was having gal bladder issues. He told me right to my face....
Your FAT
Your FAIR (White)
Your 40!!!!
THat got my attention, and within a year after that I had lost 100 pounds and have kept it off! | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| trickster j - 2016-06-01 10:08 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 7:20 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat- Well, I'm not sure I can clarify better than I have. I provided you with some information I remembered from that article where over 600 docs were surveyed, combined with a mental compilation of my colleagues over the years, of which there have been hundreds, as well as my personal opinion based on experience and everything taken together. What's your point? I can't really offer much on the topic of equine back pain. My experience is limited to one horse, and the pain resolved after one chiro treatment.
This has been a fun topic to toss around- but I am afraid it has ran it's course. I respect you for your education and your expertise in the field of medicine, even though I didn't express it previously- you asked if there were any certified experts here on BHW and yes, there is at least one, and it is me. I am pretty sure I've proven that by now. Thanks for the chit chat -
eta: I feel this is an appropriate moment for me to step away from this, I think I've covered my arse pretty well!
"It's OK, I know you did your best", "I will try to keep this simple"- maybe this is what others were referring to in your lack of self awareness? Many of these posts challanged you in many ways but I did not read one that stooped to this level. You come across as a petulant teenage mean girl who has to insult others intelligence to feel superior, not a becoming quality. You can leave out the insults and still effectively argue your point- guess the mom in me is coming out, kindness in all situations is something I drilled into my children. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | rodeomom3 - 2016-06-02 7:30 AM
trickster j - 2016-06-01 10:08 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 7:20 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat- Well, I'm not sure I can clarify better than I have. I provided you with some information I remembered from that article where over 600 docs were surveyed, combined with a mental compilation of my colleagues over the years, of which there have been hundreds, as well as my personal opinion based on experience and everything taken together. What's your point? I can't really offer much on the topic of equine back pain. My experience is limited to one horse, and the pain resolved after one chiro treatment.
This has been a fun topic to toss around- but I am afraid it has ran it's course. I respect you for your education and your expertise in the field of medicine, even though I didn't express it previously- you asked if there were any certified experts here on BHW and yes, there is at least one, and it is me. I am pretty sure I've proven that by now. Thanks for the chit chat -
eta: I feel this is an appropriate moment for me to step away from this, I think I've covered my arse pretty well!
I couldn't have said it better, and I'm glad someone else said it.
Obviously Dr Ramey had an excellent point in his editorial. Maybe more people will think about this discussion the next time they encounter the word "certified" and ask themselves what that really means, whether it is applied to a person or product. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | rodeomom3 - 2016-06-02 7:30 AM trickster j - 2016-06-01 10:08 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 7:20 PM trickster j - 2016-06-01 8:41 PM Bear - 2016-06-01 6:18 PM I'll try to clarify so you can understand, trickster. Yes, my comments were my opinion, but I based that on the opinions of other docs with whom I've worked for 37 years. Back pain can be very frustrating to deal with. I have read a study recently where over 600 doctors were surveyed. I don't recall all the details right off hand, but one thing that I walked away with was that roughly 2/3rds of those docs felt that their management was inadequate. Interestingly, in that same paper, roughly the same percentage of patients felt they were well managed. In either case, the findings merely reinforced the notion that there is considerable room for improvement. If you are really interested, I can see if I can find it for you. ETA: The short answer is no, it's not my opinion exclusively. I know it may seem a little confusing.
Thank you for trying to clarify- you jump back and forth between your opinion, everyone else's opinion, our opinion, theory and fact very often in the same few sentences- and it doesn't appear you discriminate between them when you write.
Aa far as back pain- it is also a troubling issue in horses as well. It could be caused by poor saddle fit, direct trauma, poor training/riding, sore stifles/hocks/rear suspensories, shoeing, strain to the Supraspinous lig, etc. etc. etc. Once a vet can identify and alleviate the primary pain source, the back tightness and spasming can be resolved with massage, trigger point, Myofacial and a few other alternative remedies. These actually are the majority of the cases that are referred to me because the veterinarians know that I can create a positive change in these secondary issues once the primary issues are resolved. This btw, is why it is important for a certified practitioner to work under verterinary guidance. (I mention this just to provide you with some insight as to how these non-veterinary practices performed by certified (or not) individuals can help heal the horse as a whole).
eta: In consideration of back pain in humans, I wonder how many of these cases are expressed as symptoms of a structural imbalance or compensation from another part of the body? In horses, the back pain seems to mostly be caused by something else-
I know horses are quadrupeds and not bi-peds, but it could be interesting to ponder possible similarities between them. Perhaps that is why back pain is such a difficult syndrome to treat- Well, I'm not sure I can clarify better than I have. I provided you with some information I remembered from that article where over 600 docs were surveyed, combined with a mental compilation of my colleagues over the years, of which there have been hundreds, as well as my personal opinion based on experience and everything taken together. What's your point? I can't really offer much on the topic of equine back pain. My experience is limited to one horse, and the pain resolved after one chiro treatment.
This has been a fun topic to toss around- but I am afraid it has ran it's course. I respect you for your education and your expertise in the field of medicine, even though I didn't express it previously- you asked if there were any certified experts here on BHW and yes, there is at least one, and it is me. I am pretty sure I've proven that by now. Thanks for the chit chat -
eta: I feel this is an appropriate moment for me to step away from this, I think I've covered my arse pretty well!
^^^^^ THIS......due to the condecending nature of her posts....I personally (and am sure many others) quit reading and dismissed her posts. That is a shame because she COULD have taken that time and energy used to "snipe" at others to REALLY educate..... | |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | The powers that be on this website have given me the title of "nut case expert". Did not take long to get that certification hanging out here!! | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I personally like someone that says it like it is and how they feel and don't use BS words to cover up their true feelings. Both Bear and Trickster are very confident, educated people and beause of this they are the kind of medical people I seek out for help. I don't want a professional too doubt anything they do. Both of these people display this characteristic.
Edited by Nevertooold 2016-06-02 1:52 PM
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Location: In my own little world | Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM
Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set.
We'll said. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
Perhaps, you should go back and re-read a few posts.....Here's just a few but I can CERTAINLY find you more.....If she had taken as much time to actually try to educate people maybe....just maybe....she would get the respect that she thinks she is due......
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Nevertooold - 2016-06-02 2:15 PM I personally like someone that says it like it is and how they feel and don't use BS words to cover up their true feelings. Both Bear and Trickster are very confident, educated people and beause of this they are the kind of medical people I seek out for help. I don't want a professional too doubt anything they do. Both of these people display this characteristic.
One main problem.
Trickster isn't a medical professional. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | 1DSoon - 2016-06-02 3:33 PM Nevertooold - 2016-06-02 2:15 PM I personally like someone that says it like it is and how they feel and don't use BS words to cover up their true feelings. Both Bear and Trickster are very confident, educated people and beause of this they are the kind of medical people I seek out for help. I don't want a professional too doubt anything they do. Both of these people display this characteristic. One main problem.
Trickster isn't a medical professional.
You're right...she is a health professional and Bear is a medical professional | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| NJJ - 2016-06-02 3:25 PM
GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities. eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory- to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject. you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly? You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle so that explains why you are a bit outdated So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert AND there are MANY more........................................
I read them. I just didn't come to the same conclusion you did. If someone doesn't see things the way I do, it doesn't bother me, the world would be a boring place if we all saw things the exact same way. | |
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Expert
Posts: 3147
| BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-05-30 11:01 PM
When I was a young boy, my granddad gave me his definition of an EXPERT
and it has stuck with me all my life ..
EX ... is a has-been
SPURT ... is a drip under pressure
NUFF SAID ..
That one and an expert is anyone who lives over fifty miles away from you. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Interesting thread to say the least. Certification is such a crock, just like dogs nowadays who are certified CKC, ABC, etc. and the horse registrations half app, warmblood, paint.... You can get any certification or "degree" you want on the internet. Just look at the defunk Trump University.
Edited by Vickie 2016-06-02 5:29 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM
Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set.
No, I wasn't trying to be ornery. That's pure conjecture on your part.
I posted the link to Ramey's article because I thought it was funny, and it was funny to me because I think he's spot on. Good humor is usually based on truth, at least in part. I find much of what he writes to be humorous, and I usually agree with the guy. His main thrust is that being "certified" or working toward some "certificate" ought to signify the attainment of a certain level of excellence. While that is sometimes true, all too often it's cheap and meaningless. The man worked very hard through undergrad, then vet school, and beyond to become certified by the American Board of Veterinary Surgery. He attained a standard of excellence by demonstrating a high fund of knowledge and competence through a vigorous process. Alternative medicine is replete with pseudoscientific data published in impressive sounding publications. There are countless impressive sounding organizations along with impressive sounding acronyms and initialisms, all of which are used to give the uninformed the impression of authenticity and validity. He is often quick to point these tricks out, thus giving rise to his haters.
If I raised anyone's hackles, I suggest they look in the mirror for the real origin of their reaction. I'm guessing I touched a painful nerve.
To use a common cliche', the truth hurts. | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set.
My post has absolutely zero to do with verascity of triskter j's arguments, I believe her to be a highly educated and passionate equine practitioner, but everything to do with her presentation, which is one that demeans others because " they can't keep up with the conversation." | |
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Location: In my own little world | No hackles raised here and this ^^^^ is my kind of humor. We all see it differently don't we. As long as you aren't spending my money and I'm not spending yours, I don't give a hoot what you prefer to purchase with it. What you think is needless and what I think is unnecessary and throwing money down a hole can be quite different. And that's what makes life so wonderful. Peace out. ( and "you" in this is not in reference to Bear but rather a generalization) But the arrows are regarding g Bear's last post not yours Rodeomom.
Edited by ropenrun 2016-06-02 6:47 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ropenrun - 2016-06-02 6:23 PM
No hackles raised here and this ^^^^ is my kind of humor. We all see it differently don't we. As long as you aren't spending my money and I'm not spending yours, I don't give a hoot what you prefer to purchase with it. What you think is needless and what I think is unnecessary and throwing money down a hole can be quite different. And that's what makes life so wonderful. Peace out. ( and "you" in this is not in reference to Bear but rather a generalization) But the arrows are regarding g Bear's last post not yours Rodeomom.
That's the beauty of public forums.....to share information, stories, and opinions. I learn a lot about barrel racing, and horsemanship here, and I don't often contribute much to those discussions, because I don't think I can contribute a lot of valuable information when it comes to those things. People learn from debates, even those that become heated. Part of convincing me on a given subject is based on who lays out the facts and backs them up with convincing objective evidence, as opposed to anecdote and testimonial, which I consider less convincing. For me, it's really that simple. | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities. eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory- to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject. you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly? You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle so that explains why you are a bit outdated So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expertAND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta." 
Edited by trickster j 2016-06-02 11:12 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| trickster j - 2016-05-31 12:40 PM
Bear - 2016-05-31 9:44 AM How can I become a certified herbalist? What's the process? What guarantee do I have, as a prospective consumer of herbs, that the seller of these products is an "expert"?
Basically Bear, it's a buyer beware market- you would actually have to put some effort into educating yourself first in order to know if you are going to get a qualified expert or a liar. If you choose to hire a certifed expert herbalist who doesn't know bout herbal remedies that would be your own fault.
And this is where I have the issue, it shouldn't be a buyer beware market.
If someone is certified, there should be a regulatory body who oversees, implements policy, displines people working outside their scope.
For instance, a certified dentist sedated horses, this is outside his/her scope and is practicing veterinary medicine without a liscence.
Farriers using ace to sedate a horse is also practicing outside their scope.
If a farrier screws up or intentionally hurts a horse there is no recourse, they can never loose their certification, whereas a vet can loose their liscence.
Again in our area we can have farriers who claim to be certified in 3days, their piece of papers doesn't say how long the course was, same with massage, etc. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | trickster j - 2016-06-02 10:34 PM NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta."
You threw the jab at me because I asked for your credentials.......certainly showing me that you are NOT the "professional" that you think you are........Many come to this forum to LEARN....not read your condescending remarks....that shows me that if I were to consider you as a "professional" to work on MY horse, I would pass you by.....And I am certainly not "offended" by your sarcastic remarks but feel that you do yourself a GREAT disservice by acting in a very unprofessional and childish manner when trying to get your point across. A "debate" is NOT laced with condescending remarks to any person who happens to disagree with your opinion or remarks.......You truly missed the mark here in trying to educate...... | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| NJJ - 2016-06-03 6:47 AM trickster j - 2016-06-02 10:34 PM NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta."
Truthfully- whoever you are- it is hard for me to communicate with you without being insulting, because you are so intent on..... ok- nevermind..... have an awesome weekend!
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | trickster j - 2016-06-03 9:05 AM NJJ - 2016-06-03 6:47 AM trickster j - 2016-06-02 10:34 PM NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta."
You just can't help yourself can you?  | |
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Too busy outside!
Posts: 5417
| NJJ - 2016-06-03 7:10 AM trickster j - 2016-06-03 9:05 AM NJJ - 2016-06-03 6:47 AM trickster j - 2016-06-02 10:34 PM NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta."
Ah- no- since you appear to be the kind of person who'd even bring out the worst in Mother Theresa-
If you'd like to discuss anything with me personally instead of hiding behind a screen name, feel free to contact me- my name is Christie Hebert, and my website is www.wholehorseconnection.com and you can find all of my contact info there- | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | You said: "In order to be offended, you have to respect the person who offends you- I wasn't offended with what Bear said- and I doubt he was offended with what I said. I was offended by Ramey's article though- it really struck a nerve in me and I expressed that - which is appropriate for this type of forum."
So evidently you respect Dr Ramey. Is that correct?
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
Location: Displaced Iowegian | trickster j - 2016-06-03 10:33 AM NJJ - 2016-06-03 7:10 AM trickster j - 2016-06-03 9:05 AM NJJ - 2016-06-03 6:47 AM trickster j - 2016-06-02 10:34 PM NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta."
If you'd like to discuss anything with me personally instead of hiding behind a screen name, feel free to contact me- my name is Christie Hebert, and my website is www.wholehorseconnection.com and you can find all of my contact info there-
Thank you so much for your kind words.......and no, thank you, I have no need to discuss anything with you. And I don't hide behind anything.....My name is Norma Jones....... | |
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Expert
Posts: 1543
Location: MI | trickster j - 2016-06-02 11:34 PM I have to ask though, why are you and rodeomom3 and the other one I forgot already so offended over what I said to Bear?
NJJ and RodeoMom weren't the only ones. Since you seem confused as to why people are offended at your tone and communication style, I'll tell you why I wouldn't hire you based on this communication here. First, I agree with Rodeomom, I would have my kids hide if they insinuated that someone else is simple-minded, among other rude comments, and were condescending toward that someone else (NO MATTER the person's education, house they live in - or don't, etc ). You are representing yourself here as a professional, yet you feel the need to put others down. In the professional realm, that is NEVER ok. It is ok to be skeptical, to ask questions, to admit you don't know, to discuss opinions, and definitely - to have differences of opinions - certainly, I do that all the time. But to be condescending and defensive just isn't professional. Take Kasar's Professional Behaviors questionnaire, study the book "Developing Professional Behaviors" - simple, easy read. It may help you see how to have positive discussions in the light of conflict, respecting others while getting your point across. Edited by Ridenrun4745 2016-06-03 11:20 AM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | NJJ - 2016-06-03 11:04 AM trickster j - 2016-06-03 10:33 AM NJJ - 2016-06-03 7:10 AM trickster j - 2016-06-03 9:05 AM NJJ - 2016-06-03 6:47 AM trickster j - 2016-06-02 10:34 PM NJJ - 2016-06-02 1:25 PM GLP - 2016-06-02 3:16 PM ropenrun - 2016-06-02 2:51 PM Trickster I see nothing condescending in what you have said. Just because someone doesn't agree with you does not mean it is condescending. But people read into things what they want and I am no different. I believe Bear made this post to to be onery and raise some hackles. I don't need a flipping piece of paper hanging on my wall whether it be from Harvard, Computer U, or a Cracker Jack box to tell me that. And that is why others did not jump to your support you. They have been there done that. It isn't that there is no one agreeing with you, it's we have learned something's aren't worth going their by playing that game with the trap that was set. We'll said.
It's very obvious you started this thread to take a cheap poke at those of us who are certified in our alternative health related modalities.
eta: were you really trying to "save" your BB's here from quackery and gimmicks by starting this post? What besides your own opinion qualifies you to even know the difference between them and legit therapies? Did you attend a professional course to educate yourself on all aspects of these treatments? Or do you just choose to share your unprofessional opinion to everyone whenever you feel particularly inclined to do so? I may be completely wrong here, but I take you as the type of internet "expert" who spends hours scouring the internet for articles that support your most dominant theory-
to this post I will say that you are definitely not qualified to have a verifiable opinion on this subject.
you just verified that you are indeed an internet "expert" who researches only those topics that support your narrow minded and uneducated theory- why not slip over to the dark side and read something that is peer reviewed and scholarly?
You aren't very fun to have an argument with- not even a simple minded one
you're too funny- your assumptions make me giggle
so that explains why you are a bit outdated
So do you understand the difference between an equine anatomical and biomechanical specialist vs a human vascular nerve specialist
this is awesome dialogue- I'm earning post points and stars- maybe someday I will have as many as you and then I'll really be an "expert
AND there are MANY more........................................
eta: quite honestly, I think that both Bear and I have been around long enough to experience criticism and have learned how to deal with it- it's kind of fun to have a such a free debate here where we both can let loose and let it roll- I know I don't get to do that very often, and truthfully, I really enjoyed the opportunity to do it here. A scientific mindset is never going to agree with a non-scientific mindset- I see possibilities in everything, and Bear sees possibilities in proven facts- it takes both kinds of us to make the world a better place- it's all about balance......
I think name around here should be changed to "eta."
If you'd like to discuss anything with me personally instead of hiding behind a screen name, feel free to contact me- my name is Christie Hebert, and my website is www.wholehorseconnection.com and you can find all of my contact info there-
Norma has never hid behind anything in her whole life I bet, shes always been up front in who she is. So no hiding behind a computer screen for her. Heck she dont even have a made up name for herself on here. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | .
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | You're not allowed to start a meme war. That's my job. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | .
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 926
| OMG, what a post! I started out thinking Dr. Ramsey may have missed his calling by being a DVM instead of a comedian. I was about to post how cool his site was.....then BOOM and YOWZA someone's wee teenies were hurt.
Trickster, you must admit there are some 'certified' folks out there that shouldn't be out there. And Bear will probably admit that there are docs out there that shouldn't be out there. However, there is a wider door for certifications to be abused, and I'm not sure of the avenues in curbing that. MD/DO/laws are around to address the malpractice in humans, but somestimes it's slow.
Trickster obviously cares about her profession, the horses she works on and spends a lot of time applying her education and training. No doubt she's most likey exceptional at what she does, which shows in her very passionate response.
Unfortunately there are some that don't do this, and just care about the $$$$. We've all heard the horror stories on those guys. Still think Dr. Ramsey is a hoot, and also has some very valid points.
Have a good weekend everyone and Texans try to stay as dry as possible.
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | I just have one item to contribute to this thread: CUSTOMER SERVICE. | |
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