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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
   
Location: North Dakota | My KS horse usually gets back injections and cur-ost to manage his back pain. His last injection was on May 11th. I admit I haven't been as adamant about lunging as usual but he was also moved out on 20+ acre pasture with tons of hills and terrain so he's getting a lot of good exercise on his own. But he is just not improving. He had one good day (about 80% pain free) but otherwise is still in a lot of pain when his back is palpated. My vet has mentioned several times that she's had good luck with shockwave therapy. It's $300 a session and she said in 1-3 sessions most horses improve dramatically and the results have been lasting a long time. Now I can handle the $900 but only if there's a reasonable chance it will work. Otherwise, I'm going to start looking into the ligament snip surgery for him. I will do WHATEVER it takes to try and get this horse sound. Any other I would have given up on at this point but he is really really really special and everyone who knows him sees it.
So I'm looking at experiences with shockwave, especially if you've used it for KS. But any example of it helping (or not) with inflammation is appreciated.
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | I did both injections and shockwave for my horse with kissing spine. The injections help more than the shock wave. So I wouldn't waste money on it again. It only helped for a few days. I would have the surgery done. The longer you wait, the worse it is. Mine was too far gone- had 2 surgeries and still had to retire him. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Well I would really look at your lunging program first and foremost. I'm sure you planned on that anyway. My vet suggested shockwave if and only if I couldn't manage it with meso, exercise, massage. He said that you don't want to jump to that and then it gets worse and you run out of options. Which made a lot of sense to me.
A good friend of mine did the shockwave (3 sessions) and she maybe got a season out of him and without the diligent lunging, it really didn't help much. She retired him.
So my advice is to look at your exercise program and work with someone who knows dressage. I have come a long ways with my gelding but felt like we were in a bit of a slump and took him to a dressage trainer. Although what I was doing was helping, I realized he was only using about 2/3 of his muscle that runs behind the ears back to the wither. We are now working on that.
You may or may not be interested in this suggestions but wanted to share. I can give you more insight if you want it.
Good luck. KS has by far been the most frustrating injury/issue for me. |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Has anyone ever tried Tildren for this? Just curious. I've read a few reports. Seems like mixed reviews for an expensive drug, but I like some aspects of it. Theoretically it makes sense, but I'm not sure the experiences have met expectations. |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| Bear - 2016-06-07 8:18 AM
Has anyone ever tried Tildren for this? Just curious. I've read a few reports. Seems like mixed reviews for an expensive drug, but I like some aspects of it. Theoretically it makes sense, but I'm not sure the experiences have met expectations.
I am currently trying Osphos for potential KS issue. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
| I have used Shockwave...it showed results but they were very short term. I have heard that MagnaWave is the way to go...I do not have personal experience but several friends have had great luck with it and it's even approved for people. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | The talk I'm hearing now is they are starting to think the dorsal spinous processes aren't the main problem in kissing spine. They are starting to think it's the articular facets that are deeper down. That's at least a few vet's theories here. Said they weren't getting the response from the KS surgery just taking the DSPs off and are trying to inject the articular processes deeper down to get more pain relief. It'll be interesting to see where the trend goes in the next few years. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | casualdust07 - 2016-06-07 12:20 PM
The talk I'm hearing now is they are starting to think the dorsal spinous processes aren't the main problem in kissing spine. They are starting to think it's the articular facets that are deeper down. That's at least a few vet's theories here. Said they weren't getting the response from the KS surgery just taking the DSPs off and are trying to inject the articular processes deeper down to get more pain relief. It'll be interesting to see where the trend goes in the next few years.
Yes, this is what my vet decided the problem was with mine AFTER the 2 surgeries lol. I kept telling them he was still in pain and they didn't believe me until doing a deeper ultrasound and see further down that there was fusing there also. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | JLBerry - 2016-06-07 12:22 PM casualdust07 - 2016-06-07 12:20 PM The talk I'm hearing now is they are starting to think the dorsal spinous processes aren't the main problem in kissing spine. They are starting to think it's the articular facets that are deeper down. That's at least a few vet's theories here. Said they weren't getting the response from the KS surgery just taking the DSPs off and are trying to inject the articular processes deeper down to get more pain relief. It'll be interesting to see where the trend goes in the next few years. Yes, this is what my vet decided the problem was with mine AFTER the 2 surgeries lol. I kept telling them he was still in pain and they didn't believe me until doing a deeper ultrasound and see further down that there was fusing there also.
Oh Lordy. I really don't need MORE complication with this. I just want my horse back. :( |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | cavyrunsbarrels - 2016-06-07 12:30 PM
JLBerry - 2016-06-07 12:22 PM casualdust07 - 2016-06-07 12:20 PM The talk I'm hearing now is they are starting to think the dorsal spinous processes aren't the main problem in kissing spine. They are starting to think it's the articular facets that are deeper down. That's at least a few vet's theories here. Said they weren't getting the response from the KS surgery just taking the DSPs off and are trying to inject the articular processes deeper down to get more pain relief. It'll be interesting to see where the trend goes in the next few years. Yes, this is what my vet decided the problem was with mine AFTER the 2 surgeries lol. I kept telling them he was still in pain and they didn't believe me until doing a deeper ultrasound and see further down that there was fusing there also.
did they inject that area too?
And totally feel your pain on that. I am battling 6 months out with my horse with totally unrelated lameness than what you are dealing with.. but have done surgery, rehab, and now shock waving because she came up lame again. Bah Humbug. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | casualdust07 - 2016-06-07 12:35 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2016-06-07 12:30 PM JLBerry - 2016-06-07 12:22 PM casualdust07 - 2016-06-07 12:20 PM The talk I'm hearing now is they are starting to think the dorsal spinous processes aren't the main problem in kissing spine. They are starting to think it's the articular facets that are deeper down. That's at least a few vet's theories here. Said they weren't getting the response from the KS surgery just taking the DSPs off and are trying to inject the articular processes deeper down to get more pain relief. It'll be interesting to see where the trend goes in the next few years. Yes, this is what my vet decided the problem was with mine AFTER the 2 surgeries lol. I kept telling them he was still in pain and they didn't believe me until doing a deeper ultrasound and see further down that there was fusing there also. did they inject that area too? And totally feel your pain on that. I am battling 6 months out with my horse with totally unrelated lameness than what you are dealing with.. but have done surgery, rehab, and now shock waving because she came up lame again. Bah Humbug.
Well she does 8 injections total. Four on either side of the SDP's, straight down. So I don't know if that would be deep enough to reach the articular facets...not sure though. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 784
Location: USA | I'm new to KS as well.... just found out last week. I'm not trying to steal this thread, but for those of you that have gone through it, is it worth still trying to compete on your horse or would you retire him? By competing is it going to make matters worse? I have a couple other prospects coming up so I don't have to run him I want to do what's best for him. The vet said my case was mild to moderate and that he wasn't a canidate for surgery..... Thanks OP for asking this question. Trying to figure things out. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Lookin For Diamonds - 2016-06-07 2:44 PM I'm new to KS as well.... just found out last week. I'm not trying to steal this thread, but for those of you that have gone through it, is it worth still trying to compete on your horse or would you retire him? By competing is it going to make matters worse? I have a couple other prospects coming up so I don't have to run him I want to do what's best for him. The vet said my case was mild to moderate and that he wasn't a canidate for surgery..... Thanks OP for asking this question. Trying to figure things out.
If you can get the inflammation and pain under control, riding won't make matters worse unless you allow the horse to work in a hollow frame and/or have a saddle that doesn't fit. The key is getting their pain under control enough to get to the point of being able to ride them. It's not fun :/ |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | RedHead84 - 2016-06-07 11:33 AM I have used Shockwave...it showed results but they were very short term. I have heard that MagnaWave is the way to go...I do not have personal experience but several friends have had great luck with it and it's even approved for people.
I really like using the magnawave or the P3 type machines on the horse with soft tissue pathology.
Another thing that you can try is estrone to relax the muscles if you believe there's no bony involvement.
I have given P-Block with good success in some horses that I was hauling hard and don't ride well on the trailer and thus get sore backs. It can be given deep with B15 and provide a two fold effect on lactic acid build up in the large muscles.
I really believe in rolfing a horse with deep seated primary back pain. They often times have to be restrained to accomplish the treatment. Then have the rider do gymnastic exercises to bring on relief. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 639
Location: God's country...aka TEXAS | Lookin For Diamonds - 2016-06-07 2:44 PM
I'm new to KS as well.... just found out last week. I'm not trying to steal this thread, but for those of you that have gone through it, is it worth still trying to compete on your horse or would you retire him? By competing is it going to make matters worse? I have a couple other prospects coming up so I don't have to run him I want to do what's best for him. The vet said my case was mild to moderate and that he wasn't a canidate for surgery..... Thanks OP for asking this question. Trying to figure things out.
Basically when you are seeing the dorsal processes touching or almost touching, its the tip of the ice berg. There is a lot going on way deeper that has been going on for a while in order for the vertebraes to actually be touching at the top. So unless you can fix this right away, or manage with injections, they just get worse. IMO you can manage for a while but ultimately they need to be retired. It leads to so many other problems. My horse completely tore up his hocks, stifles etc from compensating from the pain. |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Have you thought about Osphos? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 784
Location: USA | JLBerry - 2016-06-08 7:22 AM Lookin For Diamonds - 2016-06-07 2:44 PM I'm new to KS as well.... just found out last week. I'm not trying to steal this thread, but for those of you that have gone through it, is it worth still trying to compete on your horse or would you retire him? By competing is it going to make matters worse? I have a couple other prospects coming up so I don't have to run him I want to do what's best for him. The vet said my case was mild to moderate and that he wasn't a canidate for surgery..... Thanks OP for asking this question. Trying to figure things out. Basically when you are seeing the dorsal processes touching or almost touching, its the tip of the ice berg. There is a lot going on way deeper that has been going on for a while in order for the vertebraes to actually be touching at the top. So unless you can fix this right away, or manage with injections, they just get worse. IMO you can manage for a while but ultimately they need to be retired. It leads to so many other problems. My horse completely tore up his hocks, stifles etc from compensating from the pain.
sent you a PM |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Lookin For Diamonds - 2016-06-08 8:58 AM
JLBerry - 2016-06-08 7:22 AM Lookin For Diamonds - 2016-06-07 2:44 PM I'm new to KS as well.... just found out last week. I'm not trying to steal this thread, but for those of you that have gone through it, is it worth still trying to compete on your horse or would you retire him? By competing is it going to make matters worse? I have a couple other prospects coming up so I don't have to run him I want to do what's best for him. The vet said my case was mild to moderate and that he wasn't a canidate for surgery..... Thanks OP for asking this question. Trying to figure things out. Basically when you are seeing the dorsal processes touching or almost touching, its the tip of the ice berg. There is a lot going on way deeper that has been going on for a while in order for the vertebraes to actually be touching at the top. So unless you can fix this right away, or manage with injections, they just get worse. IMO you can manage for a while but ultimately they need to be retired. It leads to so many other problems. My horse completely tore up his hocks, stifles etc from compensating from the pain.
My gelding although seems to be managed, I have chosen to semi-retire him. I took him 2-3x last year to events I wanted to go to where I know he loves the ground, weather was nice and it was going to be overall a great day. However, I think the worse thing for them is to sit. The more exercise my guy gets, the better he is. And I know a retired KS horse and hes lost all muscle on his topline.
My gelding LOVES to go when he go!!! So I think the semi-retirement is a good fit. I keep him in great shape, do his routine exercises 5-6x a week and keep him feeling good and when I feel like going or its a race I love, we go if he tells me he's feeling good. I can tell right away if hes having a bad day.
The best thing my vet told me is to know his normal. For example, when this journey started my gelding could barely be touched on his back. Then it was tightness and now it is intermittent knots. If he is tight all the way through, he must have been chilled, slipped, maybe mudd or just flatout a flareup and I don't take him. If he has typical knots, I put him out on the long line, neck stretcher or martingale and if he losens up (usually take 5-10 min) then we go. Some days, no knots. But his average day, he will have a knot.
I dunno if that makes any sense  |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | readytorodeo - 2016-06-08 7:45 AM Have you thought about Osphos?
I really don't know much about the drug but would be open to it if my vet recommends it. |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | My vet has recommended it for mine. I haven't done it yet. I did back injections 10 months ago. I have also had her SI injected in Feb and again in April. She dumped me at a barrel race this past Tuesday, going in for back injections again, most likely. I don't have much advice. Except that this sucks and I hate it!!! I bought my dream horse at age 5 and now a year and a half later I contemplate whether it's worth it |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | livinonlove&horses - 2016-06-10 2:00 PM My vet has recommended it for mine. I haven't done it yet. I did back injections 10 months ago. I have also had her SI injected in Feb and again in April. She dumped me at a barrel race this past Tuesday, going in for back injections again, most likely. I don't have much advice. Except that this sucks and I hate it!!! I bought my dream horse at age 5 and now a year and a half later I contemplate whether it's worth it
Sucks don't it? My boy is only 7, the best horse I've ever known, and it KILLS me to know he may not be comfortable enough to ride ever again. |
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
Location: Nebraska | livinonlove&horses - 2016-06-10 2:00 PM
My vet has recommended it for mine. I haven't done it yet. I did back injections 10 months ago. I have also had her SI injected in Feb and again in April. She dumped me at a barrel race this past Tuesday, going in for back injections again, most likely. I don't have much advice. Except that this sucks and I hate it!!! I bought my dream horse at age 5 and now a year and a half later I contemplate whether it's worth it
Just my opinion because I've been there, but to me the injections aren't worth it when they show no other signs except blowing up at a barrel race. It's not worth getting hurt. I would much rather completely treat the problem or retire the horse than bandaid it. |
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Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | brlracerchick - 2016-06-11 1:19 PM livinonlove&horses - 2016-06-10 2:00 PM My vet has recommended it for mine. I haven't done it yet. I did back injections 10 months ago. I have also had her SI injected in Feb and again in April. She dumped me at a barrel race this past Tuesday, going in for back injections again, most likely. I don't have much advice. Except that this sucks and I hate it!!! I bought my dream horse at age 5 and now a year and a half later I contemplate whether it's worth it Just my opinion because I've been there, but to me the injections aren't worth it when they show no other signs except blowing up at a barrel race. It's not worth getting hurt. I would much rather completely treat the problem or retire the horse than bandaid it.
FIRST, please don't assume just because I'm going to maybe do injections again that I am just "band aiding" the situation. I feel like I owe it to her to atleast get her some immediate relief from the pain if her back is hurting.
Secondly, (when I got the first injections) she wasn't showing any problems. We found it by accident basically. She was tight in her back when the chiro worked on her so we xrayed and found it. I did a consult with Dr Honnas but since she wasn't showing any clinical signs we did not do the surgery, per his recommendation. She is having SI issues as well so I'm going to go to the vet and see what is up. She has had her teeth done, but we will recheck those, check her back and check her SI to see what is going on. Then I will decide what to do, I have never ruled out surgery and have no intention of doing an easy fix. This mare I fell in love with and want to do whatever I can to get her to where I can run her or her atleast be pain free standing in my pasture. |
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Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | cavyrunsbarrels - 2016-06-10 11:09 PM livinonlove&horses - 2016-06-10 2:00 PM My vet has recommended it for mine. I haven't done it yet. I did back injections 10 months ago. I have also had her SI injected in Feb and again in April. She dumped me at a barrel race this past Tuesday, going in for back injections again, most likely. I don't have much advice. Except that this sucks and I hate it!!! I bought my dream horse at age 5 and now a year and a half later I contemplate whether it's worth it Sucks don't it? My boy is only 7, the best horse I've ever known, and it KILLS me to know he may not be comfortable enough to ride ever again.
I know mine is now 6. So much life ahead of them to have this problem!!! |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | livinonlove&horses - 2016-06-11 2:27 PM cavyrunsbarrels - 2016-06-10 11:09 PM livinonlove&horses - 2016-06-10 2:00 PM My vet has recommended it for mine. I haven't done it yet. I did back injections 10 months ago. I have also had her SI injected in Feb and again in April. She dumped me at a barrel race this past Tuesday, going in for back injections again, most likely. I don't have much advice. Except that this sucks and I hate it!!! I bought my dream horse at age 5 and now a year and a half later I contemplate whether it's worth it Sucks don't it? My boy is only 7, the best horse I've ever known, and it KILLS me to know he may not be comfortable enough to ride ever again.
Oh man, they're really close in age. I just hate it! The ONLY consolation I have is if I can't get him riding sound, I'm going to teach him to drive! That's the next best thing and I have a huge arena and lots of quiet gravel roads to drive on. |
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Shockwave therapy?