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Location: midwest mama | My 11 year old gelding is a pretty sensitive guy overall with a fairly sensitive mouth.
I started him on barrels when he was 6 and have been sporadic with his training, so he truly probably only has 2+ years of experience or so.
When he "graduated" to real barrel racing headgear, I wanted something pretty light so I put him in a Carol Goostree Simplicity bit. Smooth mouth snaffle mouthpiece. Loose parachute cord chinstrap and bit guards. Every once in awhile while going into or coming out of a turn, if I happened to hang on him just a little, he would react by humping up and crow hopping for about 4 - 5 strides. But that was it. Nothing else. It was always controllable.
I was off of him for a season, and am now bringing him back, and he is doing the same thing, only in a much more reactionary, violent fashion. I tried him in the same bit with a smooth snaffle with a lifesaver mouthpiece and he does the same thing. A couple of days ago is the first time I let him run a little bit to breeze through a run, and coming out of the first barrel I got behind him a little, grabbed his mouth (but not hard), and he came undone. Humped, crow hopped, and was really thinking about unloading me. All the way over to the second barrel. I breezed him through again and did not touch the reins at all throughout the entire turn and he was level and fine. However, he is very quick and powerful and I absolutely do not feel comfortable running a horse that I have to go through the entire turn without even touching his mouth or using an inside rein at all. It feels like riding a runaway freight train with no control - even though I'm pretty sure he won't run by a barrel.
He is not a counterfeit horse or mean at all - he is acting like he is scared.
His teeth are done on a regular basis and were just done about a month ago so they are good. My vet just looked at them a couple of weeks ago.
Has anyone else ever had this happen in a Simplicity bit? Honestly I don't have super heavy hands so this is surprising to me. I am using bit guards.
Any other suggestions of bits? No bit - maybe a hackamore? I'm lost and need some help.
Edited by OldSchoolCowgirl 2016-06-08 9:06 PM
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 Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| My guess would be to check his teeth .. or have them checked.  |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| is the bit pinnching, are you using bit guards. had one do samr thing but worse but got off put bitguards rode like a dream. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 560
Location: Where the buffalo roam | I run all mine in Simplicitys with various mouthpieces and have never had a problem. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| Have the vet or dentist check for wolf teeth or a broken off wolf tooth that is embedded in the gum. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1395
Location: Missouri | I have both a CG Simplicity and Double Gag....never had that issue although it does definitely lighten her up quite a bit. Are you using bit guards with the Simplicity? |
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Location: midwest mama | Thanks to everyone so far for the replies.
Yes I am using bit guards with the Simplicity. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1343
Location: Oklahoma | No, I would not think it was that particular bit, either. But if I were you I would not try a hackamore just now, reason being if he does go to buck again, you have a hard time getting his head up with a hackamore. That's always been my thought, though, and why I would not ride one of my buckers with a hackamore. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1631
Location: Somewhere around here | It could be too much gag for him and it could scare him? I know that's probably the opposite of what more horses are like with a Simplicity BUT every horse is different. You might also try having no curb pressure with this bit either if he likes the bit but acts like this going fast.
Random idea, but maybe also try a Sweet 6 type of bit on him. You might be able to use your hands more since you mentioned that he will *most likely* still turn even if you don't touch his face but it scares you. It would scare me too lol. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | cecollins0811 - 2016-06-09 8:28 AM It could be too much gag for him and it could scare him? I know that's probably the opposite of what more horses are like with a Simplicity BUT every horse is different. You might also try having no curb pressure with this bit either if he likes the bit but acts like this going fast. Random idea, but maybe also try a Sweet 6 type of bit on him. You might be able to use your hands more since you mentioned that he will *most likely* still turn even if you don't touch his face but it scares you. It would scare me too lol.
This ^^
If you've ruled out any dental problems he may just be that sensitive. I have a mare that did not do well in the simplicity. She only liked the sweet six and she's the type of mare I could ride with a pinky finger at home in a halter. She's insane sensitive. The sweet six was my go to bit on her. If that still is too much for your guy I'd try to figure out whether it's the gag action or even the curb chain/cord that's bothering him. Take off the chain and see if the gag action bothers him. If it's the pressure of the curb chain that's making him flip out I would certainly not try a hackamore.
Also, if you really trust him to do his job (and it sounds like he will) you may just have to run him in a regular snaffle if the other options don't work. As long as you are able to pull him up with a snaffle, there's really no reason you can't compete in it too. If it's not enough "whoa", maybe try a slow twist instead of smooth, or a chain mouth piece.
You'll just have to experiment, but I still am wondering if it'd be worth having the equine dentist (or even a different one) give him one more look over. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
Location: Alabama | I've rode more than one that will try and buck if you pull them up or hang on their face...
Sounds like attitude to me. Either get off his face or teach him that bucking is not a fun thing to do.
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 Veteran
Posts: 246
Location: Idaho | I ran one mare in a simplicity and she did really well in it. I rode, not even on the pattern, her half sister in the same bit and she threatened to rear! She really didn't like the gag action. She was very broke and rode great in non-aag type bits. And I never had her try that in anything else. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2013
Location: Piedmont, OK | Maybe the gag is too much. I would try a junior cowhorse or go to a D ring snaffle. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| My gelding went from a jr cow bit to a simplicity and he hated it. His posture changed at a walk and he was trying to avoid the bit. I put him in a sweet six and he liked it a lot. |
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Location: midwest mama | Anyone else? |
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| OldSchoolCowgirl - 2016-06-08 6:55 PM
My 11 year old gelding is a pretty sensitive guy overall with a fairly sensitive mouth.
I started him on barrels when he was 6 and have been sporadic with his training, so he truly probably only has 2+ years of experience or so.
When he "graduated" to real barrel racing headgear, I wanted something pretty light so I put him in a Carol Goostree Simplicity bit. Smooth mouth snaffle mouthpiece. Loose parachute cord chinstrap and bit guards. Every once in awhile while going into or coming out of a turn, if I happened to hang on him just a little, he would react by humping up and crow hopping for about 4 - 5 strides. But that was it. Nothing else. It was always controllable.
I was off of him for a season, and am now bringing him back, and he is doing the same thing, only in a much more reactionary, violent fashion. I tried him in the same bit with a smooth snaffle with a lifesaver mouthpiece and he does the same thing. A couple of days ago is the first time I let him run a little bit to breeze through a run, and coming out of the first barrel I got behind him a little, grabbed his mouth (but not hard), and he came undone. Humped, crow hopped, and was really thinking about unloading me. All the way over to the second barrel. I breezed him through again and did not touch the reins at all throughout the entire turn and he was level and fine. However, he is very quick and powerful and I absolutely do not feel comfortable running a horse that I have to go through the entire turn without even touching his mouth or using an inside rein at all. It feels like riding a runaway freight train with no control - even though I'm pretty sure he won't run by a barrel.
He is not a counterfeit horse or mean at all - he is acting like he is scared.
His teeth are done on a regular basis and were just done about a month ago so they are good. My vet just looked at them a couple of weeks ago.
Has anyone else ever had this happen in a Simplicity bit? Honestly I don't have super heavy hands so this is surprising to me. I am using bit guards.
Any other suggestions of bits? No bit - maybe a hackamore? I'm lost and need some help.
Let's talk about this bit first ... it is horribly designed. Take note the bit will slide all the way to the rein ring when in the horses mouth. This changes your pressure zone because the metal portion is now a purchase with no shank and it will apply pressure to the poll of the horse. You can decrease this poll pressure by going to a headstall with a wider poll strap.
http://www.equibrand.com/Goostree-Simplicity-Bit-p281/
The curve in the metal part will never allow this bit to be a gag bit... the curve will not allow the bit to slide upwards due to the curve and it being too rigid ... the only true gags are the ones made of sliding rope/curtain twine.
The cheap S clips should have been welded shut to prevent them from gigging the horse in the corner of the mouth ... if you insist on using this bit I would have them welded shut.
Snaffle bits work in two ways ... pressure over the tongue and pressure in the corner lips of the mouth ... (pressure on the bars is a myth) ... look at how your snaffle sits in the mouth .. it does not bend across the bars... it is pulled straight up higher in the corner of the mouth when pressure is applied ..
The only time pressure can be placed on the bars .. is if you are using some type of martingale or you have him over bent at the poll .. which is not the way a horse runs ..
The more links in a snaffle bit .. like a chain mouth piece... the more pressure applied to the tongue vs a 2 piece snaffle ...
Get rid of your rope chin strap .. they are worthless on a snaffle... you can put you a bit curb from the two rein rings to keep the bit from sliding thru the horses mouth or rings getting hung up on a rope ...
I would try him with a pellum bit or a low port curb with grazing shanks on it ... leather chin strap with one finger tightness .. horse and rider needs the chin strap to be against his chin for feel and not flopping all over nowhere .. do these try outs in the same bit for 3-4 days of standing with it in his mouth to just riding him out across the pasture at different times while you work in the barn all day long to get him used to it ... The low port curb will take the pressure off of his tongue and will be tuffer for him to get his tongue over it versus the bit you are using.
Even if you have to growl at your vet ... get xrays done on each side to make sure there are no broken roots left from a wolf tooth ..
If your horse has a narrow face or short tongue ... he may be getting his tongue over the bit since it has a lot of slack and could be pretty sloppy ...
It could be as simple as you stated ..... leave him alone and let him work .. watch what you do with your hands... you may be hanging on him more than you think.
Watch Cervi's hands and how she switches to riding two handed at her rates and shortens the inside rein leaving slack in the outside rein ... she holds the inside straight up holding Stingray off the barrel ... her cue to turn is when Cervi releases that small amount of rein pressure ... now watch the slack in the inside rein ... Cervi will bump her just a few times to keep on track and then throw the reins to Stingray to gather and switch to two hands during the run to the next barrel ...... Cervi is the master at little to no rein control and no neck reining ..
https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| I have 2 horses that do not like this bit bc of the gag action, they panic when it engages but I have another that's loves it. Just like people they have preferences too. Have you tried a sweet or Jr cow? One works really nice in a sweet six and the other in a short shank ed wright, both dog bones. |
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 Goat Giver
Posts: 23166
| BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-06-10 10:35 PM OldSchoolCowgirl - 2016-06-08 6:55 PM My 11 year old gelding is a pretty sensitive guy overall with a fairly sensitive mouth. I started him on barrels when he was 6 and have been sporadic with his training, so he truly probably only has 2+ years of experience or so. When he "graduated" to real barrel racing headgear, I wanted something pretty light so I put him in a Carol Goostree Simplicity bit. Smooth mouth snaffle mouthpiece. Loose parachute cord chinstrap and bit guards. Every once in awhile while going into or coming out of a turn, if I happened to hang on him just a little, he would react by humping up and crow hopping for about 4 - 5 strides. But that was it. Nothing else. It was always controllable. I was off of him for a season, and am now bringing him back, and he is doing the same thing, only in a much more reactionary, violent fashion. I tried him in the same bit with a smooth snaffle with a lifesaver mouthpiece and he does the same thing. A couple of days ago is the first time I let him run a little bit to breeze through a run, and coming out of the first barrel I got behind him a little, grabbed his mouth (but not hard), and he came undone. Humped, crow hopped, and was really thinking about unloading me. All the way over to the second barrel. I breezed him through again and did not touch the reins at all throughout the entire turn and he was level and fine. However, he is very quick and powerful and I absolutely do not feel comfortable running a horse that I have to go through the entire turn without even touching his mouth or using an inside rein at all. It feels like riding a runaway freight train with no control - even though I'm pretty sure he won't run by a barrel. He is not a counterfeit horse or mean at all - he is acting like he is scared. His teeth are done on a regular basis and were just done about a month ago so they are good. My vet just looked at them a couple of weeks ago. Has anyone else ever had this happen in a Simplicity bit? Honestly I don't have super heavy hands so this is surprising to me. I am using bit guards. Any other suggestions of bits? No bit - maybe a hackamore? I'm lost and need some help. Let's talk about this bit first ... it is horribly designed. Take note the bit will slide all the way to the rein ring when in the horses mouth. This changes your pressure zone because the metal portion is now a purchase with no shank and it will apply pressure to the poll of the horse. You can decrease this poll pressure by going to a headstall with a wider poll strap. http://www.equibrand.com/Goostree-Simplicity-Bit-p281/ The curve in the metal part will never allow this bit to be a gag bit... the curve will not allow the bit to slide upwards due to the curve and it being too rigid ... the only true gags are the ones made of sliding rope/curtain twine. The cheap S clips should have been welded shut to prevent them from gigging the horse in the corner of the mouth ... if you insist on using this bit I would have them welded shut. Snaffle bits work in two ways ... pressure over the tongue and pressure in the corner lips of the mouth ... (pressure on the bars is a myth ) ... look at how your snaffle sits in the mouth .. it does not bend across the bars... it is pulled straight up higher in the corner of the mouth when pressure is applied .. The only time pressure can be placed on the bars .. is if you are using some type of martingale or you have him over bent at the poll .. which is not the way a horse runs .. The more links in a snaffle bit .. like a chain mouth piece... the more pressure applied to the tongue vs a 2 piece snaffle ... Get rid of your rope chin strap .. they are worthless on a snaffle... you can put you a bit curb from the two rein rings to keep the bit from sliding thru the horses mouth or rings getting hung up on a rope ... I would try him with a pellum bit or a low port curb with grazing shanks on it ... leather chin strap with one finger tightness .. horse and rider needs the chin strap to be against his chin for feel and not flopping all over nowhere .. do these try outs in the same bit for 3-4 days of standing with it in his mouth to just riding him out across the pasture at different times while you work in the barn all day long to get him used to it ... The low port curb will take the pressure off of his tongue and will be tuffer for him to get his tongue over it versus the bit you are using. Even if you have to growl at your vet ... get xrays done on each side to make sure there are no broken roots left from a wolf tooth .. If your horse has a narrow face or short tongue ... he may be getting his tongue over the bit since it has a lot of slack and could be pretty sloppy ... It could be as simple as you stated ..... leave him alone and let him work .. watch what you do with your hands... you may be hanging on him more than you think. Watch Cervi's hands and how she switches to riding two handed at her rates and shortens the inside rein leaving slack in the outside rein ... she holds the inside straight up holding Stingray off the barrel ... her cue to turn is when Cervi releases that small amount of rein pressure ... now watch the slack in the inside rein ... Cervi will bump her just a few times to keep on track and then throw the reins to Stingray to gather and switch to two hands during the run to the next barrel ...... Cervi is the master at little to no rein control and no neck reining .. https://youtu.be/FqGi3WfY74w
Do you have any videos of you running in the bits you suggested?
To the OP, do you have videos? Daughter's colt was sort of doing the same thing and after watching lots of runs, we decided he was acting like a spoiled brat at the rate point because he wanted to go his preferred speed. She did a lot of transitions on him away from the barrels, put a Goostree Double Gag on him and last weekend he was second in the 1D with 98 runs...somebody won it with a "buy back" run, but that is a whole nother story.
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Anyone Ever Have A Horse React Violently To A Goostree Simplicity Bit?