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 Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
   
Location: Missouri | I had several horses trimmed yesterday, including a 2 y/o filly. She hasn't been done much, but each time has been a short rasp, ending on a positive note. This farrier has done her several times over the last year. When he got to her back legs, she pulled back a bit when he had her stretched backwards. He immediately dropped her leg and punched her in the hip while holding his nippers. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't respond, and it happened a second time on the opposite side. This filly was NOT being rank. However, I know it is frustrating when they don't stand perfectly.
As soon as he was finished, she immediately walked off sore. Today she's having a hard time walking at all.
So, I'm pretty certain it's time to find a new farrier again. But what do you expect from your two-year-olds? Is there anything that I can do to help her until she grows out some? And, what, if anything, should I have done or said in that situation?
Edited by just4fun 2016-09-03 5:52 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | If you felt like the filly was not being a toot, I would have asked the farrier was the punch necessary?!! But she could have been putting her weight on him and thats why he dropped her leg and wanted her attention. My farrier the only time he does get after my horses is when they repeteley pull away, if its just once he'll just go back and pick up the leg no big deal unless they do it again..
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2016-09-03 2:04 PM
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Regular
Posts: 73
| Time for a new farrier. most of the time its the Farrier that standing incorrectly putting the horse in an uncomfortable position. There are good ones out there but unfortunately there are a lot of them that can only slap a shoe on . I've been very fortunate to have a great farrier for the last 33 yrs. 
Edited by run2winedge 2016-09-03 9:53 AM
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Regular
Posts: 73
| There's no reason for punching a horse during shoeing (or any other time ) with a fist or tool. Just my opinion!
You can soak her in some warm epsom salt seems to help a lot
Edited by run2winedge 2016-09-03 9:52 AM
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| I had a new guy come out after my issues with my last farrier.. I have a 2 yr old as well and he's pretty good actually. But my last farrier had ZERO patience .. he would poke punch kick yank all of the above.. I swear he use to brag about putting a mark on a horse.. glad he's not my farrier anymore.. I like a farrier to be firm but not abusive .. and most importantly, especially with the younger ones, patient! |
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Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | I gave her some bute and noticed that I have a second one that is also very sore :(
I texted the farrier about my filly. He said he didn't take any more off than usual and he doesn't know why she would be sore. He told me to put turpentine on her and wait a few days. She is so bad today, it's really sad to watch her try to get around :( Edited to add pics of right front. She's sore all around, just thought I'd see if anyone could see anything obvious?   
Edited by just4fun 2016-09-03 5:51 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| It looks like you may have thrush.
Interesting, point.
Yesterday a broodmare who had very long toes (ashamed on how long) was trimmed and instantly went lame and pointing in one foot.
Hoof testers test positive in centre of frog.
I have spoke to the vet and we think thrush, and by changing her angle that part of the frog is now making contact with the ground.
Especially because a week before she was used as a demo horse for vet certification 4 vets (1 retired, 2 vets grading, and one takes no the test) all passed her. |
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 Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | WOW there is like no sole under the tip of her coffin bone, you can see where he rasped the sole ridge off. If she were mine she'd been in boots and pads.
ETA: you want 1/2-3/4" colllteral grove depth at the apex of the frog and around 1 inch at the back of the foot.
Edited by equussynergy 2016-09-04 11:39 AM
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Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | equussynergy - 2016-09-04 11:27 AM WOW there is like no sole under the tip of her coffin bone, you can see where he rasped the sole ridge off. If she were mine she'd been in boots and pads.
ETA: you want 1/2-3/4" colllteral grove depth at the apex of the frog and around 1 inch at the back of the foot.
This must be why her foot is completely flat? I knew it didn't look right, but didn't know why. That makes since when I look at photos, or compare to my others. My gelding that is also sore looks the same way! So frustrating!!!
Unfortunately, I can't buy boots in time to do any good... |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| I tell my farrier not to jack with them just give them some drugs. With young ones that helps a lot. My farrier knows it is easier in the long run to handle them properly when young because it is so much easier to handle them as they get used to trimming. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| equussynergy - 2016-09-04 11:27 AM
WOW there is like no sole under the tip of her coffin bone, you can see where he rasped the sole ridge off. If she were mine she'd been in boots and pads.
ETA: you want 1/2-3/4" colllteral grove depth at the apex of the frog and around 1 inch at the back of the foot.
Without X-rays there is no way to tell if there is no sole under the coffin bone |
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  Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | I don't see anything in the pics to indicate your farrier made her sore. She may have some thrush that needs to be treated. But where do you live? Have you gotten a lot of rain, and now all of a sudden it's dry? Not uncommon for barefoot horses to come up tender and sore with changes like that. As for what the farrier did, I am not condoning it. But I seriously doubt his punches made her sore unless he's superman. Could she have already been sore prior? Maybe stone bruised which led to some muscle soreness which may have been why she didn't want to stand? |
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Worst.Housekeeper.EVER.
Location: Missouri | missroselee - 2016-09-04 7:19 PM I don't see anything in the pics to indicate your farrier made her sore. She may have some thrush that needs to be treated. But where do you live? Have you gotten a lot of rain, and now all of a sudden it's dry? Not uncommon for barefoot horses to come up tender and sore with changes like that. As for what the farrier did, I am not condoning it. But I seriously doubt his punches made her sore unless he's superman. Could she have already been sore prior? Maybe stone bruised which led to some muscle soreness which may have been why she didn't want to stand?
Yes, we have experienced that weather pattern.
However I have two horses sore all the way around, so I don't think I have a sudden thrush issue or stone bruises on 8 feet.
I didn't mean to imply the punches made her sore. They just made me mad.
Have you found a decent farrier? Can you pm his contact info?
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Damn Yankee
Posts: 12390
Location: Somewhere between raising hell and Amazing Grace | just4fun - 2016-09-04 8:59 PM missroselee - 2016-09-04 7:19 PM I don't see anything in the pics to indicate your farrier made her sore. She may have some thrush that needs to be treated. But where do you live? Have you gotten a lot of rain, and now all of a sudden it's dry? Not uncommon for barefoot horses to come up tender and sore with changes like that. As for what the farrier did, I am not condoning it. But I seriously doubt his punches made her sore unless he's superman. Could she have already been sore prior? Maybe stone bruised which led to some muscle soreness which may have been why she didn't want to stand? Yes, we have experienced that weather pattern.
However I have two horses sore all the way around, so I don't think I have a sudden thrush issue or stone bruises on 8 feet.
I didn't mean to imply the punches made her sore. They just made me mad.
Have you found a decent farrier? Can you pm his contact info?
Trust me, I know farrier woes!!! PM who you were using. My husband shoes my horses now. I know some of our local friends here with barefoot horses all went through a lot of soreness issues with all the rain, but I think for the most part everyone is back on track. Hubby looked at the photos and said he didn't see anything that would jump out at him. He said if anything, he could have taken more sole off but he didn't hurt anything by not taking it. |
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Swiffer PIcker Upper
Posts: 4015
Location: Four Corners Colorado | cheryl makofka - 2016-09-04 5:34 PM equussynergy - 2016-09-04 11:27 AM WOW there is like no sole under the tip of her coffin bone, you can see where he rasped the sole ridge off. If she were mine she'd been in boots and pads.
ETA: you want 1/2-3/4" colllteral grove depth at the apex of the frog and around 1 inch at the back of the foot.
Without X-rays there is no way to tell if there is no sole under the coffin bone
Well of course you can't tell 100%, exactly to the millimeter, how much sole is under the coffin bone without x-rays but you can make an educated guess using landmarks in the hoof. In my experience using the collatral groove depth has been pretty accurate unless you are dealing with a subsolar abscess or retained false sole. Which from the photos it doesn't look like it to me. In my opinion the horse is trimmed too short, thinning and invading the live sole, the frog has been thinned, plus thrush which is probably causing the back of the foot to be sore causing the horse to walk on its toes where the sole is already too thin. Causing the horse to be very lame, I'm going to guess the feet on the other horse look very similar. I'd fire the farrier if not for the trim for the treatment of my horses. Most farriers I see fight horses way too much instead of finding a spot the horse is comfortable. Trust me a comfortable horse is so much easier to trim.
So imo, I would get boots and pads, treat the thrush and find a new farrier. They may be sore for a month or longer since they only grow about 1/4 inch a month.
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Member
Posts: 6
| streakysox - 2016-09-04 12:24 PM
I tell my farrier not to jack with them just give them some drugs. With young ones that helps a lot. My farrier knows it is easier in the long run to handle them properly when young because it is so much easier to handle them as they get used to trimming.
Unless your farrier is a vet, it is technically illegal for them to administer any kind of sedative to your horse. YOU can do it yourself, but your farrier cannot do it legally. |
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 Life Saver
Posts: 10477
Location: MT | equussynergy - 2016-09-05 7:53 AM cheryl makofka - 2016-09-04 5:34 PM equussynergy - 2016-09-04 11:27 AM WOW there is like no sole under the tip of her coffin bone, you can see where he rasped the sole ridge off. If she were mine she'd been in boots and pads.
ETA: you want 1/2-3/4" colllteral grove depth at the apex of the frog and around 1 inch at the back of the foot.
Without X-rays there is no way to tell if there is no sole under the coffin bone
So imo, I would get boots and pads, treat the thrush and find a new farrier. They may be sore for a month or longer since they only grow about 1/4 inch a month.
My thoughts exactly. I'm a barefoot trimmer as well and the rasp marks across the sole in the pictures made me cringe. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Doesn't look to me like he cut too short at all. Is it an optical illusion or is the heel on the left higher than the right?
Hard to say if he should have hit her or not. My experience is shoers typically aren't near patient enough and often times don't handle them with good horsemanship in the first place, then get mad at the horse. However, there are plenty of times to get after one. I trimmed a yearling filly last week. She was getting tired of me and nipped at my back. A rasp across the chest let her know, that should not happen. Only you know whether it was apropriate of not. Sounds like it wasn't from your reaction. I have had the same upset feeling with more than one before too. There is just no need to act the way some do.
From time to time, they may be sore. I expect one of the previous explanations above and in a few days, they will be fine. |
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 Straight Shooter
Posts: 5725
Location: SW North Dakota | From the pictures, the trim job looks ok to me. I might get roasted for my opinion, but it looks like the wall is flush with the sole, which means she's walking on her sole- which would dang sure make her (them) sore. It looks like a trim job that you'd do right before you put shoes on one. Depending on the horse, usually my barefoot horses have the sole either cupped out or enough wall left for them to walk on. I have two that are "thin soled," so we generally just clean their soles up a tad and leave them more wall. Mine will walk like I do when I'm on gravel in my bare feet (ouchie). JMHO, her foot looks healthly to me, aside from maybe a little thrushy. MISS YOU, friend! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | ND3canAddict - 2016-09-07 8:56 AM From the pictures, the trim job looks ok to me. I might get roasted for my opinion, but it looks like the wall is flush with the sole, which means she's walking on her sole- which would dang sure make her (them) sore. It looks like a trim job that you'd do right before you put shoes on one. Depending on the horse, usually my barefoot horses have the sole either cupped out or enough wall left for them to walk on. I have two that are "thin soled," so we generally just clean their soles up a tad and leave them more wall. Mine will walk like I do when I'm on gravel in my bare feet (ouchie). JMHO, her foot looks healthly to me, aside from maybe a little thrushy. MISS YOU, friend!
I agree with this...I don't like seeing that flat of a sole to wall without a shoe.
Regardless of varying opinions on the trim job, to help the two of them get over soreness I'd paint on Keratex or venice turpentine on the soles. Or even pine tar. I had a barefoot horse with a club foot that would be very sore after trims. The venice turpentine helped him a lot. |
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | My mare is run barefoot and her being tender is always a issue after a trim....I use Durasole with good results.... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I do not believe in leaving wall on a barefoot horse. They indeed are meant to walk on the sole. One thing about soreness. 9 times out of 10, it is not the length of the foot after a trim, but the amount of time in between trims. If you go 6 weeks or more in between trims (without some rasping in between), you most likely will have a little tenderness at trim time. This is even when the foot is not trimmed too much and especially true with previously wet conditions and thrushy feet. Ideally, a barefoot horse could be trimmed down to low heels and no wall, with a good amount of healthy frog and rasped weekly to maintain the level, shape, and mustang roll. If you don't do that and break out the nippers, about 3 weeks is ideal. Either one of those will drastically reduce tenderness, at the exact same level of trim. Most of the time, this requires extra expense or doing things yourself. For many, that is not an option, but you must expect a little tenderness from time to time.
I think that is the biggest issue with barefoot trimming. Most horse shoers just trim the foot like they are ready to put a shoe on. Expect quarters cracking out with this type of trim. Other times "barefoot" trimmers will not take enough off, leave hoof flare, and charge you an arm and a leg, while your horse gets major flare and pancake feet. The really good barefoot trimmers are few and far between in my experience.
Edited by Tdove 2016-09-07 9:48 AM
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 Having Smokin Bandits
Posts: 4572
Location: Woodstown, NJ | I would never let someone come back again who hit my horse like that. I've had babies and old horses who might try to take their foot away or lean or something, but no one ever hit them. I wouldn't tolerate it. I would have probably been like you though, and not said anything out of shock, and then later felt guilty. But he wouldn't be getting my money again.
I have different farrier problems. But that's another story. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 670
Location: Running my kids somewhere. | equussynergy - 2016-09-04 11:27 AM WOW there is like no sole under the tip of her coffin bone, you can see where he rasped the sole ridge off. If she were mine she'd been in boots and pads.
ETA: you want 1/2-3/4" colllteral grove depth at the apex of the frog and around 1 inch at the back of the foot.
That's what it looked like to me as well.
I have one that is VERY hard to trim and my farrier knows this. But if he did that to mine I would be looking for someone new. |
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More farrier woes (pics added)