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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Vet was here today and telling me it was hard to get good pictures of a horse's spine for kissing spine, but I've seen plenty of x-rays posted that looks pretty darn clear to me. She said they couldn't do today when they were out anyways because they didn't have the machine with them, another vet had it. I didn't think portable machines could do back x-rays? I'd like to have x-rays done, but not if its something that they aren't going to see much. Do I insist he goes to the clinic? Not sure how to handle this
Edited by Buckles 2016-10-07 11:06 AM
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
 
| I have seen some very clear x-rays, I have a set. It did take a few tries to get what we were looking for but horse is also huge which made it a bit more tricky. If you suspect KS, definitely get the x-rays but also know that there are a lot of options and try not to panic like I did in the beginning. Lots of dedication but it is manageable in most cases. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| The horse is pretty small, 15 hands, not real thick. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| I could see a horse that was very fat with a crease down their back being hard to get X-rays of, but other than that I don't think a competent vet would have trouble. I've had 2 different built horses get X-rays done and didn't have any trouble. One is racey built, the other is stockier, typical QH build. Good luck! |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| If you want x-rays, then find a vet clinic set up for spinal x-rays. If my close vet is reluctant to do further investigations on my horse, I will definitely go to a vet that will work with me. Do what you feel is the best way to get the answers you seek. For example, my old vet didn't believe in chiropractics, and he wouldn't sign the release for a chiro to work on my horse or son's show heifer. So, I went elsewhere. I still used him for vaccinations, colic, wounds and sickness, but not when I needed chiro releases signed. I found a vet that would sign and used him for all my lameness issues. Bottom line- do what you think is best for you and your horse.  |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Buckles - 2016-10-07 11:05 AM
The horse is pretty small, 15 hands, not real thick.
I just meant because he is tall, we had to use step stools and it was a bigger production than normal.  |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | most small vets won't have equipment powerful enough to get good pics.
Any large clinic can do it and do it well.
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | 1DSoon - 2016-10-07 12:21 PM most small vets won't have equipment powerful enough to get good pics.
Any large clinic can do it and do it well.
This...
I would not spend money on X-rays done by a portable unit. Get it done right the first time. I had two horses done with a big X-ray machine and you can see everything just fine. |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Buckles - 2016-10-07 11:01 AM Vet was here today and telling me it was hard to get good pictures of a horse's spine for kissing spine, but I've seen plenty of x-rays posted that looks pretty darn clear to me. She said they couldn't do today when they were out anyways because they didn't have the machine with them, another vet had it. I didn't think portable machines could do back x-rays? I'd like to have x-rays done, but not if its something that they aren't going to see much. Do I insist he goes to the clinic? Not sure how to handle this
Mine was diagnosed through x-rays. Very clear picture. And he's a big beefcake too. I had mine done at the clinic but I'm pretty sure all my vet has is a portable x-ray machine. Find someone who can/will do the x-rays if this vet won't. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| She works out a big equine hospital, why I was surprised she even mentioned using a portable machine. I would have figured that I would have had to take him to the hospital for the x-rays on a larger machine. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 112
| I have had kissing spine xrays taken by a portable machine that wasn't super high powered. With this horse, you could still see the lesions, it wasn't super clear but definitely able to diagnose kissing spine. If you were going to use them for surgery landmarks or injections I would get more clear ones.
We are attempting to go the exercise route first with lunging her while getting her to be more round and lift her back up. We are trying to stay off of her for now and see how that helps her. |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| GoMistyGo - 2016-10-07 12:58 PM
1DSoon - 2016-10-07 12:21 PM most small vets won't have equipment powerful enough to get good pics.
Any large clinic can do it and do it well.
This...
I would not spend money on X-rays done by a portable unit. Get it done right the first time. I had two horses done with a big X-ray machine and you can see everything just fine.
I called the State Vet school and they told me that they could NOT get a clear image of the entire spine, ONLY the top of the spinus process and could NOT rule out KS if it did not show up on the xrays.
I have a 5 yr old that has a definite issue with his spine at the thoracic/lumbar junction and from my inquiries have been told that short of an MRI xrays /body scan will NOT give me any definitive answers. AM thinking about seeing if anyone will inject either the spine itself or the ligaments holding vertebrae in place without a diagnosis. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Red3 - 2016-10-07 1:45 PM
I have had kissing spine xrays taken by a portable machine that wasn't super high powered. With this horse, you could still see the lesions, it wasn't super clear but definitely able to diagnose kissing spine. If you were going to use them for surgery landmarks or injections I would get more clear ones.
We are attempting to go the exercise route first with lunging her while getting her to be more round and lift her back up. We are trying to stay off of her for now and see how that helps her.
What are you doing to keep her round while lunging? I need to work my guy on the ground, I am not sure how to get him to stretch down rather than having his head up to the sky |
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Veteran
Posts: 112
| Buckles - 2016-10-07 2:53 PM
Red3 - 2016-10-07 1:45 PM
I have had kissing spine xrays taken by a portable machine that wasn't super high powered. With this horse, you could still see the lesions, it wasn't super clear but definitely able to diagnose kissing spine. If you were going to use them for surgery landmarks or injections I would get more clear ones.
We are attempting to go the exercise route first with lunging her while getting her to be more round and lift her back up. We are trying to stay off of her for now and see how that helps her.
What are you doing to keep her round while lunging? I need to work my guy on the ground, I am not sure how to get him to stretch down rather than having his head up to the sky
We are using a surcingle and just putting side reins on the lower/middle rings to keep her in a nice collected frame. She loves to put her head high up and hollow her back out, but has very good vertical flexion, so she does pretty will with it! She is a very hot/nervous horse too, so that's also why we are keeping off of her and just trying to keep her in shape as much as possible without a rider. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 926
| GLP - 2016-10-07 11:48 AM
If you want x-rays, then find a vet clinic set up for spinal x-rays. If my close vet is reluctant to do further investigations on my horse, I will definitely go to a vet that will work with me. Do what you feel is the best way to get the answers you seek. For example, my old vet didn't believe in chiropractics, and he wouldn't sign the release for a chiro to work on my horse or son's show heifer. So, I went elsewhere. I still used him for vaccinations, colic, wounds and sickness, but not when I needed chiro releases signed. I found a vet that would sign and used him for all my lameness issues. Bottom line- do what you think is best for you and your horse.
This. I've been dealing with KS for a few years. I read an article in Equus a few years ago, it seems that only the larger, more powerful clinic based machines are the ones that can get you the detail. They didn't even really notice or understand KS until about 10 or 12 years ago when the clinic based machines started to be in use at some of the universities. Now they estimate about 30% of horses have some degree of KS. Don't waste your money on a field portable xray, that's probably why the vet said it wouldn't show.
I'd suggest taking the time and $$$$ to get it done at a clinic. Some can be managed with conservative care, and some need the surgery. My gelding's surgery seems to have worked, but he hurt for so long, it's taken some time on the recovery. I think a lot of the recovery was mental....he's sort of a weinie.
Good Luck!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Thanks. I will just ask about taking him right to the equine hospital, or I find someone else. They are just the biggest hospital around here, why I had them look at him to begin with. Its not my regular vet. She seems to think its all muscle related with him, but from what I have seen here, a lot of you all with horse's with kissing spine didn't really display what was "normal" symptoms for a vet. A member here was nice enough to take a video of her horse's muscle pain that was going in for kissing spine surgery, my horse is worse that that painwise.
At the moment he has had 4 1/2 weeks off and is no better.... and I have only owned him 6 1/2 weeks and had only two actual rides on him 
Edited by Buckles 2016-10-08 6:16 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 926
| Oh man, that just sucks. Actually the vet is probably right in that your horse is haveing muscle pain, but that's because of the KS, just like someone with spine issues has muscle spasms. Correct the back issue with back surgery and the muscle pain goes away.
Feel free to PM me and I'll share with you what I experienced.
Edited by chicks2 2016-10-08 8:07 AM
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Buckles - 2016-10-08 5:51 AM
Thanks. I will just ask about taking him right to the equine hospital, or I find someone else. They are just the biggest hospital around here, why I had them look at him to begin with. Its not my regular vet. She seems to think its all muscle related with him, but from what I have seen here, a lot of you all with horse's with kissing spine didn't really display what was "normal" symptoms for a vet. A member here was nice enough to take a video of her horse's muscle pain that was going in for kissing spine surgery, my horse is worse that that painwise.
At the moment he has had 4 1/2 weeks off and is no better.... and I have only owned him 6 1/2 weeks and had only two actual rides on him
Please come back and let us know about your boy. Prayers it gets worked out |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Red3 - 2016-10-07 8:30 PM
Buckles - 2016-10-07 2:53 PM
Red3 - 2016-10-07 1:45 PM
I have had kissing spine xrays taken by a portable machine that wasn't super high powered. With this horse, you could still see the lesions, it wasn't super clear but definitely able to diagnose kissing spine. If you were going to use them for surgery landmarks or injections I would get more clear ones.
We are attempting to go the exercise route first with lunging her while getting her to be more round and lift her back up. We are trying to stay off of her for now and see how that helps her.
What are you doing to keep her round while lunging? I need to work my guy on the ground, I am not sure how to get him to stretch down rather than having his head up to the sky
We are using a surcingle and just putting side reins on the lower/middle rings to keep her in a nice collected frame. She loves to put her head high up and hollow her back out, but has very good vertical flexion, so she does pretty will with it! She is a very hot/nervous horse too, so that's also why we are keeping off of her and just trying to keep her in shape as much as possible without a rider.
I also went the exercise route and I use a neck stretcher with a surcingle (between front legs) which allows for freedom in the shoulders and keeping them in frame. You want them picking their wither up when their moving. When I use the neck stretcher on the sides, he lifts his back but his shoulders end up tight as he doesn't have the same freedom.
I also alternate with long lines and a martingale. I do a lot of ground poles and cavlettis. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| From what I've read about kissing spine, just on the internet from vet articles, horses with KS supposedly have more of a sway to their back. Does that seem to be try with you all that have had horses with KS? My guy is super super straight backed, been a real challenge finding him a saddle.
Also something that doesn't make too much sense to me, when he was first looked at by a vet from our regular office, she said kissing spine because he wouldn't arch his back up for her. That doesn't make much sense to me. Seems like arching his back up would give him more relieve, and seems like if she had asked him to dip down, that would have been the problem for him? I've been doing belly lifts with him and getting him to tuck his butt under to stretch and he has absolutely no problems with that for me. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1930
Location: Not where I should be... | Buckles - 2016-10-08 5:51 AM Thanks. I will just ask about taking him right to the equine hospital, or I find someone else. They are just the biggest hospital around here, why I had them look at him to begin with. Its not my regular vet. She seems to think its all muscle related with him, but from what I have seen here, a lot of you all with horse's with kissing spine didn't really display what was "normal" symptoms for a vet. A member here was nice enough to take a video of her horse's muscle pain that was going in for kissing spine surgery, my horse is worse that that painwise. At the moment he has had 4 1/2 weeks off and is no better.... and I have only owned him 6 1/2 weeks and had only two actual rides on him
Can you describe this muscle pain? I had mine x-rayed and no KS found, but he still has some weird muscle spasms. I'm wondering if there still could be something not seen on the x-rays. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| rodeodreamin - 2016-10-09 8:41 AM
Buckles - 2016-10-08 5:51 AM Thanks. I will just ask about taking him right to the equine hospital, or I find someone else. They are just the biggest hospital around here, why I had them look at him to begin with. Its not my regular vet. She seems to think its all muscle related with him, but from what I have seen here, a lot of you all with horse's with kissing spine didn't really display what was "normal" symptoms for a vet. A member here was nice enough to take a video of her horse's muscle pain that was going in for kissing spine surgery, my horse is worse that that painwise. At the moment he has had 4 1/2 weeks off and is no better.... and I have only owned him 6 1/2 weeks and had only two actual rides on him
I will pm you a video of this horse. I have another horse that had indentical back pain, he has an SI injury, but also was having muscle spasms. We suspect pssm 2. We have him on a high protein diet, magnesium, vit e. |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I should also clarify, my gelding has what he described as "mild kissing spine." IMO - he isn't true KS. He never had an issue until he took a bad fall 2 summers ago. I believe it is most likely soft tissue. X-rays showed narrowed processes but they are not touching or rubbing like true KS. My gelding has a longer back, big wither but I wouldn't call him swayed. He gets tight throughout his lumbar area. Massage, lunging and even just walking him can loosen it up. If I could afford an MRI, I think I would get a lot more answers but I don't think my course of action would change. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Taking him up to the equine hospital tomorrow for x-rays |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Absolutely nothing abnormal on his x-rays |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Buckles - 2016-10-14 11:28 AM
Absolutely nothing abnormal on his x-rays
That's good news!!!! KS is irreversible so if it is something else, it may be better. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Buckles - 2016-10-14 11:28 AM
Absolutely nothing abnormal on his x-rays
That sounds promising, rather than finding something ominous on there. Prayers for nothing major to be going on |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Yes, now we need to figure out why hes so muscle sore though. Didn't find anything going on with his hind end either. He flexes very slightly positive on his left hind, but nothing that should be causing his back pain. Vet thinks the last owner used a very poorly fitting saddle on him, but I don't really know. He definately had atrophy behind his shoulder, but the rest of his back looks okay. Not great and muscled up, but I have seen horse's backs in worse shape. |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Find someone with a laser or centurion blanket that you can use. This will help with the muscle pain. |
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 Jr. Detective
Location: Beggs, OK | Buckles - 2016-10-15 11:25 AM Yes, now we need to figure out why hes so muscle sore though. Didn't find anything going on with his hind end either. He flexes very slightly positive on his left hind, but nothing that should be causing his back pain. Vet thinks the last owner used a very poorly fitting saddle on him, but I don't really know. He definately had atrophy behind his shoulder, but the rest of his back looks okay. Not great and muscled up, but I have seen horse's backs in worse shape.
If it's possibly residual soreness from lactic acid build up my vet fixed my mare with a drug I've never even heard of...My mare tied up back in April and I fought tight, sore back muscles with her for the next two months after. Nothing I tried would knock it out completely. Finally took her in to see what he recommended. He put her on 20cc's Lactanase IV for 5 days and RVI 2cc's sub-q for 3-6 days. Within a few days she had no soreness whatsoever.
I could have been chasing kissing spine, changing pads or saddles, or wasting my money with massage, etc..
http://www.myholisticpetvet.com/tag/rubeola-viral-immunomodulator/ |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Did you test for pssm? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 520
| Just type 1 for pssm, he is n/n. Might do the type 2 hair test with equiseq, but I already have two other horses being tested and haven't gotten results yet. The company is apparently really behind in testing and I don't want to send anymore money to them before I get my results for these two. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| See if you can find a bottle of RVI. It's insanely hard to find, but is a miracle for mysterious muscle soreness.
5 dosages subcutaneously. Look it up and get calling around to see if you can find any! |
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Kissing spine