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 Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views? | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
 
| Interesting questions! Down here we have only fed coastal Bermuda hay and for the last 10 years bluestem has invaded the hay pasture, so that we are feeding a coastal/blue stem mix. I have not had an impaction colic for many, many years. So I am not afraid to feed it. I must admit that our hay is the last to be cut- customers come first! So a lot of times ours may have more stem than most girls want in their hay. I wonder if the added stem helps with avoiding impaction colic? I have read that the fine leaves and little stem of Bermuda is thought to contribute to colic.
As for the fat, I have heard the same thing. I also had some one tell me that since barrel horses are anaerobic ratcher than aerobic, the extra fat is not necessary. However, with PSSM and other metabolic diseases, I wonder about that thought.
Edited by GLP 2016-11-01 10:22 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | I can't stand coastal hay. Being so used to the amazing looking orchard and orchard/alfa fa mix hay, it was definitely an adjustment when I moved down to Texas! I haven't had a horse colic yet but I can say my horses don't do nearly as well on the coastal hay as they did on the orchard grass.
I use Flax Seed oil just to stick my supplements to the Renew Gold and Alfalfa pellets. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | I have one that will colic constantly on coastal. She eats strictly alfalfa cubes now and hasn't coliced once since I switched her over two years ago | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | GLP - 2016-11-01 9:28 PM
Interesting questions! Down here we have only fed coastal Bermuda hay and for the last 10 years bluestem has invaded the hay pasture, so that we are feeding a coastal/blue stem mix. I have not had an impaction colic for many, many years. So I am not afraid to feed it. I must admit that our hay is the last to be cut- customers come first! So a lot of times ours may have more stem than most girls want in their hay. I wonder if the added stem helps with avoiding impaction colic? I have read that the fine leaves and little stem of Bermuda is thought to contribute to colic.
As for the fat, I have heard the same thing. I also had some one tell me that since barrel horses are anaerobic ratcher than aerobic, the extra fat is not necessary. However, with PSSM and other metabolic diseases, I wonder about that thought.
Correct! I've also heard the long stem coastal pushes the sand through and helps prevent blockages and impactions. The finer and short stemmed hay is supposedly not as good for them. I just wonder why people are so scared of coastal? I use it as a filler or "busy work" 'mine get one flake of alfalfa and one flake of o&a with some coastal at night in slow feeder hay nets.
The only colic issues I've ever had was from horses not drinking properly, in that case i use a teaspoon of salt daily. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | I did have a horse who would colic on coastal so that was my biggest reason for not feeding it anymore. I started wondering if it was the cause and my vet believes it was. He is under the belief that coastal impaction colic is a true concern. There are quite a few studies done from UF and a couple other universities that back up this claim.
The other reason is just overall nutrition. Alfalfa (and mixes - T&A, O&A) has a higher protein content than coastal or grass hays. In addition, grass hay has more carbs than alfalfa. Something to consider if you have a horse that tends to get overweight or has founder risks.
With that said, I have many friends who feed coastal without a care in the world. I just refuse to risk another horse colicing on it. If I absolutely couldn't get T&A or straight alfalfa, I would prefer Tifton or Bahia over Coastal IMO.
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Veteran
Posts: 234
| We live in west tx and have no option for other hay or hay mixes so have always had to feed coastal. Our horses are turned out in 2 plus acre traps and always have coastal round bales. We do feed good quality alfalfa hay at night to keep them from getting impacted at least that is my theory. I have only had two bad cases of colic in 15 years of this feed routine so it seems to be working for us. The only place to buy mix hay is over two hours away so that has never been an option for us. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I think the reason we have never had an impaction colic is that we feed what would be considered high quality cattle hay. It has no weeds but it is stemmier. All of us want the highest quality feeds and hay we can purchase for our horses, but in the case of coastal, I believe it is better to buy hay that is not just leaves, but has some stem, too. We have owned for horses for 44 years and fed coastal the whole time and have had no impaction colics, now we have had 4 or 5 gas colics in that time but vets attributed that to our winter weather - one day it is 90 the next day the high is 40. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Edited by Tdove 2016-11-02 11:22 AM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | LOL, Coastal Hay is all I have ever feed in the last 50 years of having horses never had a colic from hay. I do feed alfalfa some, but its more of a treat for them. And I do have pasture and its all coastal.. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I keep wondering if there's any real truth to this notion that horses actually colic more on costal. I understand how people can imagine that just because costal hay is so stringy, etc, but I wonder if it's not a misconception. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bear - 2016-11-02 10:53 AM I keep wondering if there's any real truth to this notion that horses actually colic more on costal. I understand how people can imagine that just because costal hay is so stringy, etc, but I wonder if it's not a misconception.
This is what was told to me the finer/baby soft hay is a no no will cause horses to colic but the coarser the coastal the better for your horses. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | Bear - 2016-11-02 11:53 AM I keep wondering if there's any real truth to this notion that horses actually colic more on costal. I understand how people can imagine that just because costal hay is so stringy, etc, but I wonder if it's not a misconception.
There's been various disagreement on it over and over. But just for fun of reading...University of North Carolina did do a study on it and say they are 6 times more likely to suffer ileal impaction colic from it. I don't know the parameters and total details of the study, but between seeing things like that and having my vets say don't feed it, I figure I'd rather be safe than sorry. Of course my checking account would be happier on the coastal lol!
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/digestive_system/colic_in_horses/diseases_associated_with_colic_by_anatomic_location.html
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/33025/an-unwanted-impact
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I'm a coastal hater. I lost a horse within a year of moving to Texas from an impaction. My belief is the Coastal I was feeding was very fine and I came from where we had a timothy and alfalfa mix and is anything but fine and took a lot of chewing. A horse gets his digestive juices from chewing and once he got on the fine coastal he gobbled it up and since their wasn't enough digestive juices from the lack of chewing (he drank plenty of water) it became like a wad of spaghetti in his gut.
My vet does a lot of colic surgery's and he told me the number one cause was from fine stemmed coastal and the second was pelleted feed.
He told me to feed at least one flake of alfalfa a day to keep everything moving. I now feed the Danco cubes and do give coastal for something for him to chew on during the day. He picks at the coastal and it takes him 24 hours to eat 2 flakes.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | Here in Texas coastal is about the only hay option unless you have something else trucked in. I honestly have not seen any difference in colic rates here in Texas with horses on coastal vs in Colorado with horses on orchard grass. In fact my mare coliced twice in Colorado and I almost lost her both times to impaction and she has not coliced here from Coastal hay. She did colic after getting her teeth done but that was not from impaction and she wasn't on coastal yet. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-11-02 11:03 AM I'm a coastal hater. I lost a horse within a year of moving to Texas from an impaction. My belief is the Coastal I was feeding was very fine and I came from where we had a timothy and alfalfa mix and is anything but fine and took a lot of chewing. A horse gets his digestive juices from chewing and once he got on the fine coastal he gobbled it up and since their wasn't enough digestive juices from the lack of chewing (he drank plenty of water) it became like a wad of spaghetti in his gut.
My vet does a lot of colic surgery's and he told me the number one cause was from fine stemmed coastal and the second was pelleted feed.
He told me to feed at least one flake of alfalfa a day to keep everything moving. I now feed the Danco cubes and do give coastal for something for him to chew on during the day. He picks at the coastal and it takes him 24 hours to eat 2 flakes.
Yes this is what was told to me the fine hay they just really gobble it with out chewing like they should but with coarser hay they will chew more and get their juices working better. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Good to know. I guess we've been lucky because that's all we have in our pasture. Some of the costal baled hay we've considered buying looks pretty good, but I'm still partial to the kinds of hay I had up north. I was spoiled. I'd rather pay more for that kind of hay and have it trucked in every year. | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I have always fed a bermuda hay because that's the only quality hay available where I live. Most of it is Tifton (there are several versions of Tifton), some Alicia. When I have it tested, it usually comes back around 14% protein. Some years the quality wasn't as good, but I stopped buying from that grower. They eat this stuff like it's candy and with a slow feeder box or net they waste nothing. I do worry about the old horse who has a lot of teeth missing because I can't keep him out of the hay and he poops out half digested wads that weren't chewed properly. The slow feeder helps with that because he has to take smaller bites, and I have moved that group of horses to a net rather than the box to slow him down as much as possible. I supplement with a relatively small amount of alfalfa cubes (the old guy gets a lot more and his are soaked), and they're usually on pasture as well.
I wonder if horses that are raised on this type hay do better than those who were introduced to it later? | |
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... | I have gotten a few bales here & there with horses I have purchased and brought up here. The bales always look good and smell good, and the horses that don't know any better do eat it. Seems like as soon as those horses start eating the native hay that we put up, they will turn their noses up @ the coastal. I have thrown coastal bales out to our cattle because the horses wouldn't eat it, and the cattle just crapped on it and used it for bedding. And cattle will eat most anything (think straw and corn stalks). I figure that is a pretty good test of how bad it is, if the cattle won't even touch it.  | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Horses that are raised on a particular feed etc...will tend not to have problems. I remember the thoroughbred farms that set out creep feeders for their babies and they never had problems. Take a horse not raised like that and they are going to get sick.
A horse that has been raised up in Illinois doesn't have to be supplemented for selenium but if you buy a horse from another state that has plenty of selenium in their soils and take him to Illinois, you better supplement with selenium or you are looking for tying up problems. Found this out the hard way.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | rockinas - 2016-11-02 11:19 AM
I have gotten a few bales here & there with horses I have purchased and brought up here. The bales always look good and smell good, and the horses that don't know any better do eat it. Seems like as soon as those horses start eating the native hay that we put up, they will turn their noses up @ the coastal. I have thrown coastal bales out to our cattle because the horses wouldn't eat it, and the cattle just crapped on it and used it for bedding. And cattle will eat most anything (think straw and corn stalks). I figure that is a pretty good test of how bad it is, if the cattle won't even touch it.
LMAO!!!!!! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1694
Location: Willows, CA | Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM
RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Tdove is mostly right here, in my opinion. Taken one issue at a time, I will start with Coastal Bermuda hay. The comment that it is not all the same is very true. The best quality true Coastal can be used in a good overall diet with a few considerations. You have heard me say before that the best use of your feed dollar is better hay. That means that additional support becomes both less costly and less important because less is needed if the foundation of your horses diet, the roughage, is of high quality. The only times I have personally seen horses have impactions on Coastal there have been other factors in place. Most commonly this will be a teeth issue, causing a sore mouth, that makes it uncomfortable for the horse to chew as much as they normally would. Coastal is tougher and harder to break up. When this happens the tough strands of coastal do not get properly broken up by complete chewing and have the potential to wrap around each other starting the nucleus of an obstruction that then gets bigger until it causes an impaction. I have never seen a horse with proper dental care and plenty of good clean water available have an impaction from Coastal Bermuda. Some alfalfa in the diet will benefit the digestion of coastal, and I usually recommend that in the diets that I do. It is true that the sugar levels in Alfalfa are typically lower than most coastal, that also depends on when the Coastal was cut.
As to added oils in the diet. I always take those out, and feel that refined oil added in any significant amount is both disruptive to the diet, and poorly handled by the system. Natural vegetable fat stabilized in its original form with accompanying natural fiber is easily digested by the horses system. The reason for this fact is the naturally occurring levels of fat found in every roughage. It is and always been natural in the horses diet. Supplementing additional vegetable fat in a full fiber form, within reason causes no issues to digestive efficiency. In fact, adding natural vegetable fats, in a natural form means that you can eliminate a lot of grain based starches and sugars that are much more disruptive to the system at the higher amounts that they are commonly fed.
Lastly, Omega 3 supplementation is good to a point, but remember that even cured hays can contain quite a bit of omega 3 in relation to omega 6. This ratio can be overwhelmed if you feed a lot of grain, and in those diets additional omega 3 may benefit. If you do not feed a lot of grain, your O3/O6 ratio should be pretty good, and additional needs for Omega 3 should be minor.
Edited by winwillows 2016-11-02 12:29 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM
RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Thanks for the info I appreciate it, on the fat topic I have another Question: I have two mares one 8 and one 18 both who have allergies and an occasional cough/heaves. I was told the lower starch diet the better, I feed whole oats with beet pulp, vitamins and the oil (coco soya) the nutritionist told me that the whole oats are 46% starch and that's a horrible diet for a horse with breathing problems or heaves. So they suggested I switch to a 14% fat and super low starch feed I think it's 10%. It's Seminole dynasport. Made here in Florida. Ive successfully fed oats for 8+ years, do you agree with this?
Oh and the 8 year old mare is a bleeder too. | |
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Miss Southern Sunshine
Posts: 7427
Location: South Central Florida | I'm not sure about other areas, but in Florida it has a very high chance of causing colic. I have had 4 very highly recommended vets tell me NEVER feed it. I know people that have fed it with no problems but I have personally known MORE that have eventually had an issue. It has never been worth the risk to me. I have fed Jiggs, which I was told is a natural mutation of a coastal grass...I don't know if that's true. I am blessed with grass, so the only time I hay is when we haul, or if we get an early freeze (it happens sometimes in Florida). Then I buy T&A | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | RnRJack - 2016-11-02 1:37 PM
Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM
RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM
Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here)
And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed.
Thoughts/views?
Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions.
Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay.
As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal.
On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much.
Thanks for the info I appreciate it, on the fat topic I have another Question: I have two mares one 8 and one 18 both who have allergies and an occasional cough/heaves. I was told the lower starch diet the better, I feed whole oats with beet pulp, vitamins and the oil (coco soya ) the nutritionist told me that the whole oats are 46% starch and that's a horrible diet for a horse with breathing problems or heaves. So they suggested I switch to a 14% fat and super low starch feed I think it's 10%. It's Seminole dynasport. Made here in Florida. Ive successfully fed oats for 8+ years, do you agree with this?
Oh and the 8 year old mare is a bleeder too.
I am not aware of any reason you would need to lower starch levels for a horse with heaves? It is the dust and mold spores that are a concern. Processed oats can be very dusty. Really clean whole oats can be very little dust. Yes, oats themselves are high in NSC, but it really is total NSC of the diet that is of any concern. To prove my point, the Seminole feed in question has oats as an ingredient, albeit in very low percentage. Most horses do not have a problem with NSC levels. Only ones with metabolic disorders really require a low starch diet. This does not mean I am advocating a high starch diet either (I am not). Just the low starch can be overdone, unless the horse has specific low starch needs.
I must say, I don't personally agree with that Seminole feed formulation. Parts of it I like. It does appear to contain a lot of flax. However, 14% fat is too high (again, my opinion) for a feed that the median feeding rate is 8lbs (2-3 lbs would be fine). I also think the starch is lower than needs to be, unless you have a horse that needs that low of starch. It would be a good choice for a PSSM horse.
Edited by Tdove 2016-11-02 2:42 PM
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7549
Location: In The Land of Cotton | Tdove - 2016-11-02 3:40 PM RnRJack - 2016-11-02 1:37 PM Tdove - 2016-11-02 10:27 AM RnRJack - 2016-11-01 8:56 PM Since we're on a nutrition kick here lately, id like to add the question of why everyone is so apprehensive about coastal hay? Many I talk to won't feed it at all, many think their horses will colic with coastal. I personally feed it in addition to orchard & alfalfa and straight alfalfa. Ive read that lots of alfalfa is also lots of sugar and new links showing that the orchard has just as much sugar in it as alfalfa. I've also read that coastal hay helps push sand through the gut (something that we need down here) And while on topic, a nutritionist here in Florida also stated that Oils aren't good for horses, that their bodies weren't designed to digest and break it down, anyone heard this before? It sparks my interest because I've always fed an oil with feed. Thoughts/views? Where do I start. I don't particular like coastal, but it isn't the worst thing in the world, like some people believe. Here are my opinions. Coastal is a type of "Bermuda" and many of todays Bermuda are not Coastal, though the term gets used a lot. Common, Giant, Midland, Alicia, Jiggs, Tifton etc. are all very common Bermuda grass used in hay. Many of the people that say they are feeding Coastal, are in fact feeding one of these other types. Coastal does have a finer leaf than the other types, it seems, and may contribute to the higher incidence of impaction colic. However, I do not think that alone is the main reason Bermuda hay has a higher risk of colic. Bermuda seems to have a lower digestibility than other grasses. It is this low digestibility that is a big cause of impaction. When buying Bermuda or Coastal, highly fertilized and earlier cut hay is better. This will increase digestibility over either less fertilized and later cut hay. The problem with this is that "most" Bermuda is not fertilized enough to get very high protein numbers. The reason is that it cost considerably to do so. Even then, I believe Bermuda or Coastal to be inferior in digestibility to other hays of similar quality. I have fed Tifton Bermuda hay at 16% protein and a 15% protein alfalfa/timothy or orchard mix will out do it all day long. I did have a broodmare impaction colic on even this high protein, higher digestible Bermuda hay. As far as the other questions. No, alfalfa does not have high sugar. In fact, it is generally the lowest NSC hay there is. Alfalfa is also higher in digestibility than other hays. I think that is quite the old wives tale on Bermuda pushing sand through the digestive system. A high fiber, long stem diet will marginally help with this, but I don't think Bermuda or Coastal adds anything to this, over any other hay type. Whole Flax on the other hand, can aid in sand removal. On the topic of fat. The nutritionist you spoke to is correct. Horses do not naturally digest concentrated fat well. They can "adjust" to digest it, but it isn't built in to their normal digestive function. They are "designed" to digest ample amounts of unconcentrated fats in grasses. The fat in grass is a high Omega 3 oil. When grass is cut, the oil is reduced and Omega 3's in particular. That is why I prefer to use a flax oil (in the form of flax seeds ), in moderate amounts and stretch it over a longer intake period than other higher Omega 6 vegetable oils with all-at-once intake period. As far as fat is concerned, I think 3-4% high Omega 3 fats in the entire ration are best. The slower you can get this ingested, the better and more natural. This is often a challenge to do. So, if you must give an all at once fat, it is best to break it up into smaller amounts and do not go overboard. Today's high fat feed are not the best nutrition for horses in my opinion, especially at the rates feed company's want you to feed it. Remember to figure out fat in the entire ration, not just the concentrate ration. Also, type does matter. The closest you can get to a natural form, I think the better for the horse. This is where Flax shines so much. Thanks for the info I appreciate it, on the fat topic I have another Question: I have two mares one 8 and one 18 both who have allergies and an occasional cough/heaves. I was told the lower starch diet the better, I feed whole oats with beet pulp, vitamins and the oil (coco soya ) the nutritionist told me that the whole oats are 46% starch and that's a horrible diet for a horse with breathing problems or heaves. So they suggested I switch to a 14% fat and super low starch feed I think it's 10%. It's Seminole dynasport. Made here in Florida. Ive successfully fed oats for 8+ years, do you agree with this? Oh and the 8 year old mare is a bleeder too. I am not aware of any reason you would need to lower starch levels for a horse with heaves? It is the dust and mold spores that are a concern. Processed oats can be very dusty. Really clean whole oats can be very little dust. Yes, oats themselves are high in NSC, but it really is total NSC of the diet that is of any concern. To prove my point, the Seminole feed in question has oats as an ingredient, albeit in very low percentage. Most horses do not have a problem with NSC levels. Only ones with metabolic disorders really require a low starch diet. This does not mean I am advocating a high starch diet either (I am not ). Just the low starch can be overdone, unless the horse has specific low starch needs. I must say, I don't personally agree with that Seminole feed formulation. Parts of it I like. It does appear to contain a lot of flax. However, 14% fat is too high (again, my opinion ) for a feed that the median feeding rate is 8lbs (2-3 lbs would be fine ). I also think the starch is lower than needs to be, unless you have a horse that needs that low of starch. It would be a good choice for a PSSM horse.
One of the main reasons a lot of people feed Seminole - it is a totally medication free mill. The only one we have to choose from in this area. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I hate switchIng feeds but I'm trying to keep all the horses on the same feed if I can help it. That was another big reason I like the Seminole feeds because they don't mix the medications together. The fat content is high to me also but I do ride 5-6 days a week and my horses don't get to fat. I'm sure they burn it off.
My question now would be, can I still supplement my dac racehorse formula vitamin in with the dynasport. It has the vitamin K for my bleeder!
And based on these facts should I just cut the oil? I use dac oil and cocoa soya | |
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 The Vaccinator
Posts: 3810
Location: Slipping down the slope of old age. Boo hoo. | Three 4 Luck - 2016-11-02 11:14 AM
I have always fed a bermuda hay because that's the only quality hay available where I live. Most of it is Tifton (there are several versions of Tifton), some Alicia. When I have it tested, it usually comes back around 14% protein. Some years the quality wasn't as good, but I stopped buying from that grower. They eat this stuff like it's candy and with a slow feeder box or net they waste nothing. I do worry about the old horse who has a lot of teeth missing because I can't keep him out of the hay and he poops out half digested wads that weren't chewed properly. The slow feeder helps with that because he has to take smaller bites, and I have moved that group of horses to a net rather than the box to slow him down as much as possible. I supplement with a relatively small amount of alfalfa cubes (the old guy gets a lot more and his are soaked), and they're usually on pasture as well.
I wonder if horses that are raised on this type hay do better than those who were introduced to it later?
I live within a few miles of Three Four Luck -- so I feed the same hay as she. I've never had any colic issues -- and I've been feeding horses 50+ years. I do provide my horses with heated water tubs to encourage good hydration during the fall / winter months when they are eating lots of hay and my horses stay turned out most all the time. My pastures are mostly Bermuda. I do sprinkle in a bit of alfalfa, but very minimally. My horses also eat a pelleted feed and get a daily supplement (Animed's Ulc R Aid). During all my decades of feeding horses, I can remember two cases of gas colic that resolved quickly.
Several of my horses were 'imports' who moved here from such places as Arizona, Maryland, Nebraska...... so I don't think growing up with or without Bermuda hay made any difference. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I lived in Illinois for 46 years and my dad raised quarter horses. He always had at least 30 horses and many times had as many as 45. He fed timothy/alfalfa mixed hay and corn and oats. I can count on my one hand how many times we had a horse colic and it was always gas colic. He lost one that he had bought from Texas and within a month he died and they opened him up and he was loaded and impacted with worms. He got sick right after he was tube wormed. They said he had a huge die off of worms.
Then we move to Texas and Holy Hell...We moved to the state of colic with many being impactions so yes...I feel it is the fine coastal hay in most instances.
Like someone said...there are many different varieties of coastal and it is the fine stemmed I stay away from. Love Tifton but it's hard to find down where I am.
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | So what is the BEST hay out there? I've heard straight Timothy is the healthiest hay horses can have but mine turn their nose up to it! I've always done straight alfalfa I just supplement coastal for busy work, so is Timothy the best? | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Three 4 Luck - 2016-11-02 11:14 AM
I have always fed a bermuda hay because that's the only quality hay available where I live. Most of it is Tifton (there are several versions of Tifton), some Alicia. When I have it tested, it usually comes back around 14% protein. Some years the quality wasn't as good, but I stopped buying from that grower. They eat this stuff like it's candy and with a slow feeder box or net they waste nothing. I do worry about the old horse who has a lot of teeth missing because I can't keep him out of the hay and he poops out half digested wads that weren't chewed properly. The slow feeder helps with that because he has to take smaller bites, and I have moved that group of horses to a net rather than the box to slow him down as much as possible. I supplement with a relatively small amount of alfalfa cubes (the old guy gets a lot more and his are soaked), and they're usually on pasture as well.
I wonder if horses that are raised on this type hay do better than those who were introduced to it later?
I'm of course in your area and have the same issues. It's just what mine have always eaten and thank the good Lord we're doing ok, even Dan. His hay is more for something to do cause he just chews it and spits it out. | |
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Why does everyone hate Coastal hay so much?