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| I'm sorry this is lengthy but I'm frustrated. I have an 8 year old mare who I was really excited to run this year. Last year, she was clocking- and winning- at the big shows, with mistakes such as getting by the first barrel, etc. I gave her a couple months over last winter off, and brought her back this spring. This year, she has really been working well as far as running perfect patterns, but hasn't been clocking (has consistently been about a half second off from last year all season). I brought her to my lameness vet (he's awesome) and he injected her hocks.
I had thought perhaps she was bleeding (that was my only explanation), and sure enough, in July, she bled out for the first time. I have been running her on Lasix since then. My vet suggested 3cc 3 hours out to start. I didn't really see a difference. One show for timing reasons I did 2cc- bingo- she felt fresh and got second at a big rodeo! So I then began doing 2cc 2 hours out and thought her performance got a little better. She felt good, except I suspected she bled once. (I do also use flair strips, supplement high in vit k, a breathing paste pre-race & electrolytes after). I've been back to using 3cc but I just still do not have my horse back. I know some say that is not enough to be effective. Also I hear conflicting thoughts on when to give it--some do farther out. I heard the rule of thumb was the # of cc = the # of hours out to give. (So 3cc=3hrs out).
Anyway, a few weeks ago she refused the gate (she has NEVER done that) and I've seen behavioral changes (kicking in her stall all the time, seems unhappy). I took her back to the vet saying "my horse is not right". Sure enough, she tested positive for Lymes disease. We are treating her.
So this past weekend, I thought maybe it has been the Lymes and not a bleeding issue all along. I decided to run her without giving the Lasix bc I was able to have her scoped right after. She refused the gate pretty bad, but clocked a little better and felt amazing. She was sharp, felt fresh, just really good! I was happy overall- until I had her scoped and she did in fact bleed. She's already on antibiotics for the Lymes, so the vet said that was good. They recommended going to 4cc 4 hours out and also trying ventipulmin.
The poor girl. Advice? I just want my horse back. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 964
Location: Alberta, Canada | I've been fighting the same battle. Heather at Simply Equine has done wonders on my mare.
I ran her on Lasix second half of the summer after bleeding in spring and she actually felt worse... part of the problem being that keeping her off feed and water makes her angry and she doesn't focus. She will not fire on lasix. Period. Doesnt matter what dosage. Pulled the lasix and boom -- she fires. Heather has her barely bleeding now off lasix (scope showed a tiny trickle of blood an hour after... vet said if we'd scoped any earlier we wouldnt have seen it). We only pulled lasix for the final weekend of competition a month ago because we knew we'd be able to let her rest after if she did bleed. Never bled out and Heather told me that if she's down to barely bleeding on the smallest dose of one supplement, she'd pretty well guarantee the bleeding stops with that supplement doubled up on race day and a second supplement added.
I'd never dealt with a bleeder before but I'm pretty sure it is the most frustrating thing to get under control :( hope you start to get things figured. Highly recommend Heather at Simply Equine... and I feel ya! |
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 Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | My opinion, but I think bleeding sometimes comes from pain and stomach problems. Since I've had my stomach issues under control my horse is running better and feeling better. I make sure he's on omeprazole while hauling and I only give 3cc's 3 hours out. If you are giving the lasix IM then it needs to be about 3 hours out the get absorbed. I also make sure he's not sore in hocks or other places. If they are sore and upset about going in the arena it's raising blood pressure up even more. Knock on wood no bleeding episodes this year. I do take food and water away several hours before with all my horses. If they have a full stomach it puts more pressure on the lungs while running. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| jschipper - 2016-11-02 9:27 AM I've been fighting the same battle. Heather at Simply Equine has done wonders on my mare. I ran her on Lasix second half of the summer after bleeding in spring and she actually felt worse... part of the problem being that keeping her off feed and water makes her angry and she doesn't focus. She will not fire on lasix. Period. Doesnt matter what dosage. Pulled the lasix and boom -- she fires. Heather has her barely bleeding now off lasix (scope showed a tiny trickle of blood an hour after... vet said if we'd scoped any earlier we wouldnt have seen it). We only pulled lasix for the final weekend of competition a month ago because we knew we'd be able to let her rest after if she did bleed. Never bled out and Heather told me that if she's down to barely bleeding on the smallest dose of one supplement, she'd pretty well guarantee the bleeding stops with that supplement doubled up on race day and a second supplement added. I'd never dealt with a bleeder before but I'm pretty sure it is the most frustrating thing to get under control :( hope you start to get things figured. Highly recommend Heather at Simply Equine... and I feel ya!
What concerns me is people going off of lasix and putting them on supplements and using phrases like it must have worked because "they never bled out". Most horses are silent bleeders. Very few bleed out. The reason this worries me is everytime your horse bleeds (and yes, just internally, with no signs of blood) they are damaging their lungs. Scar tissue will form and lung function will decrease. They also risk the chance of lung infection. So please, anyone using just herbs and such to control your bleeder... have them scoped right after a run to insure they really are not bleeding.
I guess I dont understand pulling food after giving lasix? I keep hay infront of my horse at all times on lasix. No vet ever told me to pull it.... only water of course. I am assume they are worried about impact colic due to dehydration? Ive never had a problem keeping food in front of her. My horse is happier with it. Also I only say Ive never had a problem because I can tell my horse is on her game or not. The horse I lasix is a solid 1d horse and it is easy to measure her runs compared to like my colt or a horse running in a lower division. Please so not take that the wrong way. |
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Location: In my own little world | Something you might want to look into is EquiPulmin. Horses who have run on lasix have been able to cease using it. I have seen it literally clear out the phlegm that was clogging the airways. The vet was very impressed with the changes and results from scoping before and after. Very easy to use. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 964
Location: Alberta, Canada | WetSaddleBlankets - 2016-11-02 8:29 AM
jschipper - 2016-11-02 9:27 AM I've been fighting the same battle. Heather at Simply Equine has done wonders on my mare. I ran her on Lasix second half of the summer after bleeding in spring and she actually felt worse... part of the problem being that keeping her off feed and water makes her angry and she doesn't focus. She will not fire on lasix. Period. Doesnt matter what dosage. Pulled the lasix and boom -- she fires. Heather has her barely bleeding now off lasix (scope showed a tiny trickle of blood an hour after... vet said if we'd scoped any earlier we wouldnt have seen it). We only pulled lasix for the final weekend of competition a month ago because we knew we'd be able to let her rest after if she did bleed. Never bled out and Heather told me that if she's down to barely bleeding on the smallest dose of one supplement, she'd pretty well guarantee the bleeding stops with that supplement doubled up on race day and a second supplement added. I'd never dealt with a bleeder before but I'm pretty sure it is the most frustrating thing to get under control :( hope you start to get things figured. Highly recommend Heather at Simply Equine... and I feel ya!
What concerns me is people going off of lasix and putting them on supplements and using phrases like it must have worked because "they never bled out". Most horses are silent bleeders. Very few bleed out. The reason this worries me is everytime your horse bleeds (and yes, just internally, with no signs of blood) they are damaging their lungs. Scar tissue will form and lung function will decrease. They also risk the chance of lung infection. So please, anyone using just herbs and such to control your bleeder... have them scoped right after a run to insure they really are not bleeding.
I guess I dont understand pulling food after giving lasix? I keep hay infront of my horse at all times on lasix. No vet ever told me to pull it.... only water of course. I am assume they are worried about impact colic due to dehydration? Ive never had a problem keeping food in front of her. My horse is happier with it. Also I only say Ive never had a problem because I can tell my horse is on her game or not. The horse I lasix is a solid 1d horse and it is easy to measure her runs compared to like my colt or a horse running in a lower division. Please so not take that the wrong way.
As I posted -- we scoped my mare and found that she IS bleeding internally. When we try the herbs, we'll scope again.
My mare is a 1D horse who went from being tough to not tough on lasix. She is also a walking health issue and has an allergy to almost everything chemical. My vet has taken all of this into consideration and to be honest, was not a fan of starting her on lasix to begin with. If you'd like to speak to her about why she (and every other vet ive ever spoken to about lasix) told me to pull water AND feed, i'd be happy to give you her number. My story is MY story. It's what works for me. I would have appreciated more if you had simply posted your own story rather than picking apart why mine is wrong or unhealthy or what have you. My mare doesnt fire on lasix. period. I work closely with vets, body workers, etc to keep her healthy. thank you for your opinion. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| jschipper - 2016-11-02 11:57 AM WetSaddleBlankets - 2016-11-02 8:29 AM jschipper - 2016-11-02 9:27 AM I've been fighting the same battle. Heather at Simply Equine has done wonders on my mare. I ran her on Lasix second half of the summer after bleeding in spring and she actually felt worse... part of the problem being that keeping her off feed and water makes her angry and she doesn't focus. She will not fire on lasix. Period. Doesnt matter what dosage. Pulled the lasix and boom -- she fires. Heather has her barely bleeding now off lasix (scope showed a tiny trickle of blood an hour after... vet said if we'd scoped any earlier we wouldnt have seen it). We only pulled lasix for the final weekend of competition a month ago because we knew we'd be able to let her rest after if she did bleed. Never bled out and Heather told me that if she's down to barely bleeding on the smallest dose of one supplement, she'd pretty well guarantee the bleeding stops with that supplement doubled up on race day and a second supplement added. I'd never dealt with a bleeder before but I'm pretty sure it is the most frustrating thing to get under control :( hope you start to get things figured. Highly recommend Heather at Simply Equine... and I feel ya! What concerns me is people going off of lasix and putting them on supplements and using phrases like it must have worked because "they never bled out". Most horses are silent bleeders. Very few bleed out. The reason this worries me is everytime your horse bleeds (and yes, just internally, with no signs of blood) they are damaging their lungs. Scar tissue will form and lung function will decrease. They also risk the chance of lung infection. So please, anyone using just herbs and such to control your bleeder... have them scoped right after a run to insure they really are not bleeding.
I guess I dont understand pulling food after giving lasix? I keep hay infront of my horse at all times on lasix. No vet ever told me to pull it.... only water of course. I am assume they are worried about impact colic due to dehydration? Ive never had a problem keeping food in front of her. My horse is happier with it. Also I only say Ive never had a problem because I can tell my horse is on her game or not. The horse I lasix is a solid 1d horse and it is easy to measure her runs compared to like my colt or a horse running in a lower division. Please so not take that the wrong way. As I posted -- we scoped my mare and found that she IS bleeding internally. When we try the herbs, we'll scope again. My mare is a 1D horse who went from being tough to not tough on lasix. She is also a walking health issue and has an allergy to almost everything chemical. My vet has taken all of this into consideration and to be honest, was not a fan of starting her on lasix to begin with. If you'd like to speak to her about why she (and every other vet ive ever spoken to about lasix ) told me to pull water AND feed, i'd be happy to give you her number. My story is MY story. It's what works for me. I would have appreciated more if you had simply posted your own story rather than picking apart why mine is wrong or unhealthy or what have you. My mare doesnt fire on lasix. period. I work closely with vets, body workers, etc to keep her healthy. thank you for your opinion.
I understand this... I am just saying all to many people try to run bleeders off of lasix and go to the ends of the earth trying every supplement in sight when they are in fact causing more damage by just not using lasix... What I've found most important when using lasix is making sure my horse is on a good electrolyte that replenishes the lost potassium, calcium. sodium ect... Horses on lasix lose calcium for a few days after a lasix dose. So a "good" daily elcetrolyte is essential. If one is not used it is very possible that will cause a horse to wash out when using lasix... |
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 Member
Posts: 14
| jschipper - 2016-11-02 11:57 AM
WetSaddleBlankets - 2016-11-02 8:29 AM
jschipper - 2016-11-02 9:27 AM I've been fighting the same battle. Heather at Simply Equine has done wonders on my mare. I ran her on Lasix second half of the summer after bleeding in spring and she actually felt worse... part of the problem being that keeping her off feed and water makes her angry and she doesn't focus. She will not fire on lasix. Period. Doesnt matter what dosage. Pulled the lasix and boom -- she fires. Heather has her barely bleeding now off lasix (scope showed a tiny trickle of blood an hour after... vet said if we'd scoped any earlier we wouldnt have seen it). We only pulled lasix for the final weekend of competition a month ago because we knew we'd be able to let her rest after if she did bleed. Never bled out and Heather told me that if she's down to barely bleeding on the smallest dose of one supplement, she'd pretty well guarantee the bleeding stops with that supplement doubled up on race day and a second supplement added. I'd never dealt with a bleeder before but I'm pretty sure it is the most frustrating thing to get under control :( hope you start to get things figured. Highly recommend Heather at Simply Equine... and I feel ya!
What concerns me is people going off of lasix and putting them on supplements and using phrases like it must have worked because "they never bled out". Most horses are silent bleeders. Very few bleed out. The reason this worries me is everytime your horse bleeds (and yes, just internally, with no signs of blood) they are damaging their lungs. Scar tissue will form and lung function will decrease. They also risk the chance of lung infection. So please, anyone using just herbs and such to control your bleeder... have them scoped right after a run to insure they really are not bleeding.
I guess I dont understand pulling food after giving lasix? I keep hay infront of my horse at all times on lasix. No vet ever told me to pull it.... only water of course. I am assume they are worried about impact colic due to dehydration? Ive never had a problem keeping food in front of her. My horse is happier with it. Also I only say Ive never had a problem because I can tell my horse is on her game or not. The horse I lasix is a solid 1d horse and it is easy to measure her runs compared to like my colt or a horse running in a lower division. Please so not take that the wrong way.
As I posted -- we scoped my mare and found that she IS bleeding internally. When we try the herbs, we'll scope again.
My mare is a 1D horse who went from being tough to not tough on lasix. She is also a walking health issue and has an allergy to almost everything chemical. My vet has taken all of this into consideration and to be honest, was not a fan of starting her on lasix to begin with. If you'd like to speak to her about why she (and every other vet ive ever spoken to about lasix ) told me to pull water AND feed, i'd be happy to give you her number. My story is MY story. It's what works for me. I would have appreciated more if you had simply posted your own story rather than picking apart why mine is wrong or unhealthy or what have you. My mare doesnt fire on lasix. period. I work closely with vets, body workers, etc to keep her healthy. thank you for your opinion.
I have the same issue with my mare. I was also told pull feed, dont pull feed, pull water, dont pull water. After speaking extensively with a 28 veteran track vet, I pull both. It is usually 4-5 hours max for me between giving the lasix and running. I dont think there is much risk with a horse going 4 hours without food. When i haul to a big race, i dont give hay that will last the 8-10 hours in thier stall and they sleep longer than that. I did 4cc 4 hours out and found she didnt run as hard as she did with 5cc 2 hours out. (Both IV)
The explanation i was given about no food/water made sense (it rebuilds pressure back in their system and the barametric pressure is the worry to put strain on the lungs). Since i feel the risk for lung damage out weighs the crabbiness over 4 hours being hungry, mine suffers. It is a no brainer to me. If there are other issues with lasixand your horse, definatly investigate. You owe your horse that. good luck! |
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Veteran
Posts: 178
| Thank you...I feel like this is what I need to play with. 4cc- 4 hours out or 2 hours out.
I also spoke with a trainer on the track, and she had to take Lasix once (for humans), and she said it cramped her up terribly and it was awful so she runs all of hers on the track on Kentucky Red and Amicar. I do not know much about them. |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | And sometimes there is nothing you can do except retire them.....m |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I try to post my experience on every bleeder thread I see, all I can say is every horse is differenent and responds to different treatments but what I've found that has worked for my bleeders most was rigorous EXERCISE! 5-6 days a week of long trotting, galloping and just riding in general. Get your horse in the best possible shape you can, strengthen the lungs and capillaries inside them. I have a bleeder that i completely took off lasix since I got serious about her exercis program. I've even had her scoped since. The only vitamin supplement I feed for it is the DAC racehorse formula with the vitamin K. |
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Veteran
Posts: 178
| Lol I don't think quite yet.
She is not a bad bleeder, but she's just not feeling 110% to me like she did last year. She's not clocking like I know she can. I'm trying to figure out the timing on Lasix and I do not know how much the Lyme's has played into this.
I know my horse. I know that she is not running bad, she's just not at her best. This season we went to 20 Pro Rodeos. We got a check at 17 of the 20, and are gearing up for circuit finals. I don't think she's quite ready to be put out to pasture.
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Veteran
Posts: 178
| I feed the Racing Formula too!
And use their Rescue Aid! |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I agree that bleeding does more harm then the lasix preventing them
From not bleeding, both have long term effects. I personally am
One of those people who will do anything in my power to NOT use lasix. I had one gelding who had to have it everything and a mare that once I got in shape never needed it again. Were they two different issues? I don't know, all I know is I have had my mare scoped several times and she has not bled after her runs.
I've read articles saying that even horses using lasix will have a slight bleed, that lasix is not guaranteed to completely stop bleeding but is a preventative. So when your horse bleeds through lasix, what's next?
I don't think a lot of people really know how to keep a competitive barrel horse in running shape. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | joplin21 - 2016-11-02 2:38 PM
I feed the Racing Formula too!
And use their Rescue Aid!
This has been the best supplement and most affordable I've found yet |
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 Vicks addict
Posts: 3759
Location: LA | I recently had my horse scoped during exercise as well as a BML test(I believe that's what it's called). For that test they take samples from the lungs and send it off to determine the cause of the bleeding. Mass cells, mold, inflammatory airway disease etc. Just a suggestion for you. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | jzthoward - 2016-11-02 3:46 PM
I recently had my horse scoped during exercise as well as a BML test(I believe that's what it's called). For that test they take samples from the lungs and send it off to determine the cause of the bleeding. Mass cells, mold, inflammatory airway disease etc. Just a suggestion for you.
It's called BAL, great test to do for bleeders |
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Vicks addict
Posts: 3759
Location: LA | RnRJack - 2016-11-02 4:05 PM
jzthoward - 2016-11-02 3:46 PM
I recently had my horse scoped during exercise as well as a BML test(I believe that's what it's called). For that test they take samples from the lungs and send it off to determine the cause of the bleeding. Mass cells, mold, inflammatory airway disease etc. Just a suggestion for you.
It's called BAL, great test to do for bleeders
I knew those weren't the right letters!!LOL Yes, it gave us lots of answers and helped us decide what approach to take with ours. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: South MS | joplin21 - 2016-11-02 8:59 AM I'm sorry this is lengthy but I'm frustrated. I have an 8 year old mare who I was really excited to run this year. Last year, she was clocking- and winning- at the big shows, with mistakes such as getting by the first barrel, etc. I gave her a couple months over last winter off, and brought her back this spring. This year, she has really been working well as far as running perfect patterns, but hasn't been clocking (has consistently been about a half second off from last year all season). I brought her to my lameness vet (he's awesome) and he injected her hocks. I had thought perhaps she was bleeding (that was my only explanation), and sure enough, in July, she bled out for the first time. I have been running her on Lasix since then. My vet suggested 3cc 3 hours out to start. I didn't really see a difference. One show for timing reasons I did 2cc- bingo- she felt fresh and got second at a big rodeo! So I then began doing 2cc 2 hours out and thought her performance got a little better. She felt good, except I suspected she bled once. (I do also use flair strips, supplement high in vit k, a breathing paste pre-race & electrolytes after). I've been back to using 3cc but I just still do not have my horse back. I know some say that is not enough to be effective. Also I hear conflicting thoughts on when to give it--some do farther out. I heard the rule of thumb was the # of cc = the # of hours out to give. (So 3cc=3hrs out). Anyway, a few weeks ago she refused the gate (she has NEVER done that) and I've seen behavioral changes (kicking in her stall all the time, seems unhappy). I took her back to the vet saying "my horse is not right". Sure enough, she tested positive for Lymes disease. We are treating her. So this past weekend, I thought maybe it has been the Lymes and not a bleeding issue all along. I decided to run her without giving the Lasix bc I was able to have her scoped right after. She refused the gate pretty bad, but clocked a little better and felt amazing. She was sharp, felt fresh, just really good! I was happy overall- until I had her scoped and she did in fact bleed. She's already on antibiotics for the Lymes, so the vet said that was good. They recommended going to 4cc 4 hours out and also trying ventipulmin. The poor girl. Advice? I just want my horse back.
I own a bad bleeder. It was to the point that I thought I would have to quit running him. I was doing 6cc of lasix 4 hours out with banamine.
He would bleed threw. I tried the herbs, bleed stop, and nothing helped.
I got him scoped, did treatment and turned him out 3 months to let everything heal and recover.
I feed him on the ground only now.
A friend recommended Kentucky red with my lasix. That was the perfect combo.
This is what I give mine. It's a lot of work.
I do 5cc Kentucky red and 5cc of lasix 4 hours out IV.
10cc of banamine orally 2-3 hours out. I give electrolytes paste when I start to saddle. Then I give some ace under the tongue right before I get on. The ace is mainly to help keep
his heart rate lower.
I can still give my horse water with this combo. He urinates so much the vet and I decided that he wouldn't be able to replenish it by drinking.
I also feed Four Horsemans Yunnan Paiyao daily. All this together has made a big difference. Good luck |
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Bleeder frustrations-- Need advice.