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Elite Veteran
Posts: 863
  
| Is it bad if so? I bought some really nice 2nd crop hay and it's 75% alfalfa, couldn't pass up the deal, however I also feed 2lbs of grain a day that's pretty high in protein. I have noticed my mare urinating frequently ever since I think. Just wondering, can this be bad? I don't have any grass hay options until next years cutting. Would love to hear opinions |
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Member
Posts: 24
| Yes a horse can get too much protein. I would try to find a lower protein feed. |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | It is hard on the kidneys when it is rich with protien like over 12%. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Yep. Excess protein is excreted through the urine. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | classicpotatochip - 2016-12-13 11:07 PM Yep. Excess protein is excreted through the urine.
This is true
but I would have a hard time believing that the diet described by the OP was excessive |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 863
| I know I sound dumb here, but hard on the kidneys, you mean long term? I guess I can google it too...but yes I can definetly tell she has been urinating quite a bit more since the hay switch. I figured in our harsh winters alfalfa would be great |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| 1DSoon - 2016-12-13 10:21 PM
classicpotatochip - 2016-12-13 11:07 PM Yep. Excess protein is excreted through the urine.
This is true
but I would have a hard time believing that the diet described by the OP was excessive
Oh. Haha. I just realized that I only answered the question in the title and didn't actually read the post. I'm fried and trying to chill out wasting internet data.
No, it doesn't sound excessive.
Just an odd thought, probably cause I'm maxed out, but with the winter months here, my covered pens aren't drying out as quickly. (20X50) I have needed to buy treatment for spots to dry them up. If I didn't know better, I'd say they were peeing more.
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 494
| Back in the day you always heard it can be hard on kidneys but more recent articles say it does not have as significant effect as once said. The extra is excreted in urine. Horses with a strong ammonia smelling urine have high protein levels.
Edited by epoh 2016-12-13 10:38 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
 
| Long term high protein contents can cause kidney failure.
If you are not feeding oats, and it is a processed food, I would drop the protein content down, and increase the fat content. I would also look at the calcium and phosphorous ratio |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | No it is not bad for them. Quality of protein is also important . It will not cause kidney failure, in a healthy horse. It can cause more ammonia in urine. A horse needs high quality forage and THE measure of high quality forage is protein. I believe horses do much better on a higher protein diet (forage based) than the literature says. Ideally, about 15-16% protein in the total forage based diet is about perfect, in my opinion. Even then, digestibilty is key. I once had some tested 16% protein tifton that did not perform anywhere near a 16% alfslfa. Quality, digestible forage protein equals good health.
Your feed ration is not excessive in any way. Horses easily handle 20% protein. High quality grass pasture is often in the 25+ protein department.
Edited by Tdove 2016-12-14 7:05 AM
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 Too Skinny
Posts: 8009
Location: LA Lower Alabama | Is her urine more yellow than normal or seems the same? Is she in heat? |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Excess protein is not harmful to kidneys. Please stop for a second and make it a point to understand this. I'll repeat......excess protein in the diet is not harmful to the kidneys.
Now if you have underlying or pre-existing renal disease from any cause, excessive protein intake can worsen uremic symptoms, but even then the protein itself does not harm the kidneys. It's just that the kidneys cannot excrete byproducts of protein metabolism and uremic symptoms can be exaggerated.
Normal kidneys will easily handle the protein load. |
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 Go Your Own Way
Posts: 4947
Location: SE KS | too much protein depending on % can be harmful to a horse. It can affect their kidneys, liver and eyesight.....
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Dinero10 - 2016-12-14 11:54 AM too much protein depending on % can be harmful to a horse. It can affect their kidneys, liver and eyesight.....
did you even read the thread?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 863
| No she's not in heat, we are a high of 8 degrees all week, her urine is somewhat creamier I guess? Not a solid yellow. I just know since she's been on this feed and mostly forage for the past 3 weeks I've seen her urinate more frequently, but her weight she looks good. I'm feeding a 18% fat blended grain mix. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2161
Location: NW. Florida | Yes, mine started getting marble sized knots in her girth area. Once we backed off of the protein they absorbed. |
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| Let's try to figure out your feeding program ...
****************************************************
Is it bad if so? I bought some really nice 2nd crop hay and it's 75% alfalfa, couldn't pass up the deal, however I also feed 2lbs of grain a day that's pretty high in protein. I have noticed my mare urinating frequently ever since I think. Just wondering, can this be bad? I don't have any grass hay options until next years cutting. Would love to hear opinions
No she's not in heat, we are a high of 8 degrees all week, her urine is somewhat creamier I guess? Not a solid yellow. I just know since she's been on this feed and mostly forage for the past 3 weeks I've seen her urinate more frequently, but her weight she looks good. I'm feeding a 18% fat blended grain mix.
**********************************************************
To make any sort of calculations ... we need to know the following:
75% alfalfa grass hay ...
How many lbs are you feeding her per day??
2 lbs /day of high protein grain mix with 18% fat??!!
What brand of feed are you feeding and protein % ... or the % of each grain in one lb or 50 lb sack ... ??
Where is the fat content coming from ??
*********************************************************
I read the protein responses on this thread and wondered where all
of the lack of attention or concern on how much protein to feed
was coming from. SO .. I GOOGLED to see what all the dog and
cat vets were now writing about proteins in a horses feeding program.
These new re-written text books on feeding horses is going to
get a lot of your horses in serious trouble... kinda like common core
math when moving into calculus or physics ... lol
Sure enough ... now proteins are harmless because they pee off
the excess which smells like ammonia... WRONG!!
A digested protein chain still turns into sugar in the bloodstream by
being slower to digest which enables a horse to continue after
burning up the carb sugars which are quick to digest ... since carbs
and proteins both end up being a bloodstream sugar ... think of making
some cookies that call for 2 cups of sugar and 1 cup of protein sugar ...
and then wondering why your cookies are like eating pure sugar ...
since both are turned into sugar you have to balance your feeding
program depending on the exercise your horse gets ... an active
athlete needs the protein to extend their activities and to re-build
muscles afterwards ....... feeding the same amounts to a horse sitting
on a couch just makes the horse even fatter .... or sicker ..
And ... don't ever think the higher protein feed does not light a fire under
a horse and puts them on the muscle to go and go some more even when
standing still ... the term barrel racers use is .. makes them HOT ... you
betcha it does !! ... Think of locking your kid up in his bedroom for 23
hours a day and feeding him nothing but candy ... lol
Ask any race horse trainer what is the first thing they add to a horses
feeding program when they start their training program.... >>>
a higher protein feeding program which usually involves alfalfa which
will test out 16-22% protein ... whole oats is 12% and corn is 8% ..
Now ... laminitis or founder .... whether it be an overdose of carbs or
protein in a horses feeding program and no exercise outlet to burn off
the excess energy ... horse is going to become stressed, semi nauseated,
colic'y, fevered or just feeling bad and create pressure in their hooves
and eventually a case of founder // laminitis ... even abscesses we all
take a ho humm attitude about can be the future road to
founder //laminitis ...
The more feed mills and text book vets jockey with horse's feeding
programs the more problems there are going to be.
There is a reason that protein % has always been the monitoring
and grading of feeds fed to horses for 100's of years.
So, don't ignore years and years of common sense!!
Alfalfa and whole oats with a good simple add-on of basic minerals and
vitamins is the best KISS feeding program for horses.
****************************************************
THE ABOVE IS MY COMMON SENSE .. KISS APPROACH to feeding horses ..
NOW BELOW IS MY SCIENTIFIC explanation of feeding proteins to horses ..
******************************************************
Any of numerous naturally occurring extremely complex
substances (as an enzyme or antibody) that consist of
amino acid residues joined by peptide bonds, contain the
elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, usually sulfur,
and occasionally other elements (as phosphorus or iron),
that are essential constituents of all living cells, that are
synthesized from raw materials by plants but assimilated
as separate amino acids by animals, that are both acidic
and basic and usually colloidal in nature although many
have been crystallized, and that are hydrolyzable by acids,
alkalies, proteolytic enzymes, and putrefactive bacteria to
polypeptides, to simpler peptides, and ultimately to
alpha-amino acids
I am so happy I could help you with your horse feeding
program and a better understanding of feeding proteins
with this simple explanation ... lol
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2016-12-14 10:44 PM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| I have a PSSM type 2 mare that would absolutely suffer if not on high protein and with everything I've been told, there can be some downfalls but mostly it's excreeted out in the urine. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2152
Location: Northern MN | Speaking of Protein. I have a 29 year old gelding who needs top-line help. I feed him Nutrena Senior and free choice grass hay. His is current on worming and his teeth are good. I was told to feed him some alfalfa pellets for protein. My question is, he has been foundered for over 20 years. He does very well and has not had a "episode" in years with maintenance. Can he have alfalfa pellets or mix a flake of alfalfa with his regular grass hay since he has foundered? |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Bump |
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Expert
Posts: 3300
| BARRELHORSE USA - 2016-12-15 8:42 PM
Let's try to figure out your feeding program ...
****************************************************
Is it bad if so? I bought some really nice 2nd crop hay and it's 75% alfalfa, couldn't pass up the deal, however I also feed 2lbs of grain a day that's pretty high in protein. I have noticed my mare urinating frequently ever since I think. Just wondering, can this be bad? I don't have any grass hay options until next years cutting. Would love to hear opinions
No she's not in heat, we are a high of 8 degrees all week, her urine is somewhat creamier I guess? Not a solid yellow. I just know since she's been on this feed and mostly forage for the past 3 weeks I've seen her urinate more frequently, but her weight she looks good. I'm feeding a 18% fat blended grain mix.
**********************************************************
To make any sort of calculations ... we need to know the following:
75% alfalfa grass hay ...
How many lbs are you feeding her per day??
2 lbs /day of high protein grain mix with 18% fat??!!
What brand of feed are you feeding and protein % ... or the % of each grain in one lb or 50 lb sack ... ??
Where is the fat content coming from ??
*********************************************************
I read the protein responses on this thread and wondered where all
of the lack of attention or concern on how much protein to feed
was coming from. SO .. I GOOGLED to see what all the dog and
cat vets were now writing about proteins in a horses feeding program.
These new re-written text books on feeding horses is going to
get a lot of your horses in serious trouble... kinda like common core
math when moving into calculus or physics ... lol
Sure enough ... now proteins are harmless because they pee off
the excess which smells like ammonia... WRONG!!
A digested protein chain still turns into sugar in the bloodstream by
being slower to digest which enables a horse to continue after
burning up the carb sugars which are quick to digest ... since carbs
and proteins both end up being a bloodstream sugar ... think of making
some cookies that call for 2 cups of sugar and 1 cup of protein sugar ...
and then wondering why your cookies are like eating pure sugar ...
since both are turned into sugar you have to balance your feeding
program depending on the exercise your horse gets ... an active
athlete needs the protein to extend their activities and to re-build
muscles afterwards ....... feeding the same amounts to a horse sitting
on a couch just makes the horse even fatter .... or sicker ..
And ... don't ever think the higher protein feed does not light a fire under
a horse and puts them on the muscle to go and go some more even when
standing still ... the term barrel racers use is .. makes them HOT ... you
betcha it does !! ... Think of locking your kid up in his bedroom for 23
hours a day and feeding him nothing but candy ... lol
Ask any race horse trainer what is the first thing they add to a horses
feeding program when they start their training program.... >>>
a higher protein feeding program which usually involves alfalfa which
will test out 16-22% protein ... whole oats is 12% and corn is 8% ..
Now ... laminitis or founder .... whether it be an overdose of carbs or
protein in a horses feeding program and no exercise outlet to burn off
the excess energy ... horse is going to become stressed, semi nauseated,
colic'y, fevered or just feeling bad and create pressure in their hooves
and eventually a case of founder // laminitis ... even abscesses we all
take a ho humm attitude about can be the future road to
founder //laminitis ...
The more feed mills and text book vets jockey with horse's feeding
programs the more problems there are going to be.
There is a reason that protein % has always been the monitoring
and grading of feeds fed to horses for 100's of years.
So, don't ignore years and years of common sense!!
Alfalfa and whole oats with a good simple add-on of basic minerals and
vitamins is the best KISS feeding program for horses.
****************************************************
THE ABOVE IS MY COMMON SENSE .. KISS APPROACH to feeding horses ..
NOW BELOW IS MY SCIENTIFIC explanation of feeding proteins to horses ..
******************************************************
Any of numerous naturally occurring extremely complex
substances (as an enzyme or antibody) that consist of
amino acid residues joined by peptide bonds, contain the
elements carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, usually sulfur,
and occasionally other elements (as phosphorus or iron),
that are essential constituents of all living cells, that are
synthesized from raw materials by plants but assimilated
as separate amino acids by animals, that are both acidic
and basic and usually colloidal in nature although many
have been crystallized, and that are hydrolyzable by acids,
alkalies, proteolytic enzymes, and putrefactive bacteria to
polypeptides, to simpler peptides, and ultimately to
alpha-amino acids
I am so happy I could help you with your horse feeding
program and a better understanding of feeding proteins
with this simple explanation ... lol
I guess my horses wouldn't be able to move if I took them off of alfalfa or high protein |
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Expert
Posts: 2152
Location: Northern MN | bump |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 338
Location: Michigan | yes |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | i look at it like this, horses (or anything for that matter), can only get energy from protein, starch, or fat. A horse needs x amount of energy so how are you going to get it to them? Horses are designed to eat mainly forage, which is low in starch and fat. in addition to this, horses have a low utilization of forage, compared to other herbivores so higher degestible forage is helpful. Since forage quality and digestibilty can largely be measured in protein percentage, it stands to reason that horses do need a high protein, highly digestible forage for at least 70% or more of their total intake. Therefore, it is hard to justify the thought that you need to limit protein in your horses diet.
They were designed to eat more protein than they need and thus excrete the excess in order to fully utilize high quality, high protein forage...Most people don't need to worry about if their horse is getting too much protein. I say, alot of people aren't giving enough and would do better to give more, in the form of higher protein forage, instead of looking for a grain or fat supplement to make up the slack for lower protein hay or pasture. Just a few additional thoughts.
Edited by Tdove 2016-12-16 4:46 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 863
| In response to BarrelHorsePoor post, mine get fed approx 10-15lbs of hay daily, and yes right now we have 75% alfalfa. Now that they are on winter break, they only get 1lb of rolled/steamed oats per day along with 1lb of of a local grain mix that consists of flax, beet pulp, soybean oil, barley, pellets, and this is 25% protein plus 18% fat. I could probably cut back on the local mix, and just feed oats until they start getting legged up. So now I'm confused some say yes too much protein is no good and others say it won't hurt their systems. Seems when you talk with a vet they have different responses too, LOL |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | In my opinion......Horses can tye up but it doesnt sound like your feeding to much..
people need to understand it depends on if horse is utilizing it or not... burning it off thru training or standing around..
also if kidneys are healthy or not..age of horses for the older ones have a harder time ..... if horse starts to show symptoms of not being able to or kidney issues then id cut it ... it just depends on lifestyle, horses and health.. |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | I see horses fed all Alfalfa and those on grass hay. I always see the horses on Alfalfa or even 50% Alfalfa and all the grass they want looking much better and far less medical problems than horses on grass and some kind of concentrate. Alfalfa is a quality protein while the protein in grass hay doen't have complete protein. |
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Can a horse get too much protein?