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Never Named
Posts: 1837
   
Location: Southern Alabama | Anything and everything.
?The good, the bad and the ugly. I have never had much experience with it. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | my understanding is if they have it, they have a pretty bad life. Any cut or bump on the skin and tear it.
http://equusmagazine.com/article/case-report-hereditary-equine-regional-dermal-asthenia-herda-8443
https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/herda.php
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 Horsey Gene Carrier
Posts: 1888
Location: LaBelle, Florida | Herda: nasty nasty problem. Basically the skin seperates from the body. So any dent, ding, or bruise will turn real ugly, real quick.
Usually rearing its ugly head when it comes time to saddle break. Bruising from ill fitting saddle, girth, etc turns into epic wounds that won't or can't heal.
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | It's genetic. No cure.
Why do you ask? |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| It's a death sentence |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 953
| So why do we keep letting stallions that are postive or carry the gene keep breeding???? This is what I don't understand..... |
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 Regular
Posts: 73
Location: Central Texas | Your horse has to carry both genes to be symptomatic (homozygous). If they are heterozygous HERDA, they are not symptomatic and you can still breed them so long as stallion/broodmare is double negative. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | cowgirl156 - 2016-12-27 6:56 PM So why do we keep letting stallions that are postive or carry the gene keep breeding???? This is what I don't understand.....
because money is more important than bettering the breed. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| The chance of a horse having HERDA is very slim. Supposedly linked to Poco Bueno. I had a grandson of Poco Bueno. He lived to be 32 years old. I have never seen or heard of a horse with HERDA in over 60 years of registered horses. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| streakysox - 2016-12-27 9:51 PM The chance of a horse having HERDA is very slim. Supposedly linked to Poco Bueno. I had a grandson of Poco Bueno. He lived to be 32 years old. I have never seen or heard of a horse with HERDA in over 60 years of registered horses.
A Smooth Guy is HERDA and GBED positive... |
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Horsey Gene Carrier
Posts: 1888
Location: LaBelle, Florida | If you breed responsibly (ie test mare and stallionand bred accordingly), there is not issue.
If you took every animal out of the breeding population that is a genetic carrier for a problem, there would be a VERY small pool of breeding animals left.
The Arabian community has this figured out. They test for SCID, some of the best breeding animals are carriers.
If being a carrier causes no health issue, why not still use that animal (if said animal has everything else going for it)? |
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Never Named
Posts: 1837
Location: Southern Alabama | I ask because..... my grulla mare is heterozygous for HERDA. She carries the gene, but, is not affected by it. I know nothing about it so, I want to strengthen my knowledge base. |
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 Star Padded Honey
Posts: 8890
Location: NW MT | kasaj2000 - 2016-12-28 4:11 AM If you breed responsibly (ie test mare and stallionand bred accordingly), there is not issue.
If you took every animal out of the breeding population that is a genetic carrier for a problem, there would be a VERY small pool of breeding animals left.
The Arabian community has this figured out. They test for SCID, some of the best breeding animals are carriers.
If being a carrier causes no health issue, why not still use that animal (if said animal has everything else going for it)?
BUT - way too many use the word "Carrier" if they horse has one gene for PSSM for example (or HYPP), PSSM N/P1. They are NOT carriers in these diseases - they HAVE it. It only takes one to have it. Many people do not understand this and it's all about education. WAY too many breeders out there still breeding these diseases ahead and some that flat out LIE to their customers.  |
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Never Named
Posts: 1837
Location: Southern Alabama | Rockyroad - 2016-12-28 8:20 AM kasaj2000 - 2016-12-28 4:11 AM If you breed responsibly (ie test mare and stallionand bred accordingly), there is not issue.
If you took every animal out of the breeding population that is a genetic carrier for a problem, there would be a VERY small pool of breeding animals left.
The Arabian community has this figured out. They test for SCID, some of the best breeding animals are carriers.
If being a carrier causes no health issue, why not still use that animal (if said animal has everything else going for it)? BUT - way too many use the word "Carrier" if they horse has one gene for PSSM for example (or HYPP), PSSM N/P1. They are NOT carriers in these diseases - they HAVE it. It only takes one to have it. Many people do not understand this and it's all about education. WAY too many breeders out there still breeding these diseases ahead and some that flat out LIE to their customers.
My grulla mare is a carrier for HERDA, not active, however. She has had genetic testing done and, they say that she carries the gene, but, is not affected by the gene. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| In the case of HERDA, yes, they have to be homozygous to actually have the disease. If they're heterozygous they're a true carrier. If you decide to breed her, just be sure to choose a stallion that is not a carrier.
HERDA is a recessive genetic disorder, which is why heterozygous horses are considered carriers. A HERDA heterozygous horse will not experience symptoms of the disease, while a HERDA homozygous horse will.
HYPP is a dominant gene, so it's not possible for a horse to be a "carrier". An HYPP heterozygous horse may not experience symptoms as extreme as an HYPP homozygous horse, but they can still be affected by the disease.
PSSM is also a dominant gene, so same goes as for HYPP. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 953
| cheeka77 - 2016-12-28 1:31 AM
streakysox - 2016-12-27 9:51 PM The chance of a horse having HERDA is very slim. Supposedly linked to Poco Bueno. I had a grandson of Poco Bueno. He lived to be 32 years old. I have never seen or heard of a horse with HERDA in over 60 years of registered horses.
A Smooth Guy is HERDA and GBED positive...
Yup and this is why I won't breed to him. |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| cheeka77 - 2016-12-28 1:31 AM
streakysox - 2016-12-27 9:51 PM The chance of a horse having HERDA is very slim. Supposedly linked to Poco Bueno. I had a grandson of Poco Bueno. He lived to be 32 years old. I have never seen or heard of a horse with HERDA in over 60 years of registered horses.
A Smooth Guy is HERDA and GBED positive...
I said I had never heard of a horse with HERDA. Did not say anything about being a carrier. Lets read more carefully. In the future I will try to word things more carefully so it is easier to understand.
Edited by streakysox 2016-12-28 1:18 PM
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Horsey Gene Carrier
Posts: 1888
Location: LaBelle, Florida | Rockyroad - 2016-12-28 9:20 AM kasaj2000 - 2016-12-28 4:11 AM If you breed responsibly (ie test mare and stallionand bred accordingly), there is not issue.
If you took every animal out of the breeding population that is a genetic carrier for a problem, there would be a VERY small pool of breeding animals left.
The Arabian community has this figured out. They test for SCID, some of the best breeding animals are carriers.
If being a carrier causes no health issue, why not still use that animal (if said animal has everything else going for it)? BUT - way too many use the word "Carrier" if they horse has one gene for PSSM for example (or HYPP), PSSM N/P1. They are NOT carriers in these diseases - they HAVE it. It only takes one to have it. Many people do not understand this and it's all about education. WAY too many breeders out there still breeding these diseases ahead and some that flat out LIE to their customers.
I agree, too many will lie. Which is why it pays to do your homework and ask questions, which is what I gather the op is trying to do. |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | k.maddocks24 - 2016-12-28 8:43 AM
In the case of HERDA, yes, they have to be homozygous to actually have the disease. If they're heterozygous they're a true carrier. If you decide to breed her, just be sure to choose a stallion that is not a carrier.
HERDA is a recessive genetic disorder, which is why heterozygous horses are considered carriers. A HERDA heterozygous horse will not experience symptoms of the disease, while a HERDA homozygous horse will.
HYPP is a dominant gene, so it's not possible for a horse to be a "carrier". An HYPP heterozygous horse may not experience symptoms as extreme as an HYPP homozygous horse, but they can still be affected by the disease.
PSSM is also a dominant gene, so same goes as for HYPP.
I believe MS State and one other university do extensive research on HERDA. There were some articles in Quarter Horse News several years ago; it was very interesting (sad) reading. People that owned some affected horses obviously never broke them to saddle and just hoped and prayed they never had an accident where the skin was cut or split open. They just let them live out their lives in the pasture. Others of course euthanized them upon diagnosis. Some of the pictures were horrifying. . . . |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| streakysox - 2016-12-28 1:15 PM cheeka77 - 2016-12-28 1:31 AM streakysox - 2016-12-27 9:51 PM The chance of a horse having HERDA is very slim. Supposedly linked to Poco Bueno. I had a grandson of Poco Bueno. He lived to be 32 years old. I have never seen or heard of a horse with HERDA in over 60 years of registered horses. A Smooth Guy is HERDA and GBED positive... I said I had never heard of a horse with HERDA. Did not say anything about being a carrier. Lets read more carefully. In the future I will try to word things more carefully so it is easier to understand.
Yes, maybe just try to word things more carefully if you're going to get crabby about a sentence response (and honest reply). Sorry! |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | TURNNBURNCOWGIRL - 2016-12-28 8:07 AM I ask because..... my grulla mare is heterozygous for HERDA. She carries the gene, but, is not affected by it. I know nothing about it so, I want to strengthen my knowledge base.
Your mare will NEVER produce a HERDA effected foal if you NEVER breed her to another HERDA positive horse. She mare produce another carrier but will not produce one effected if bred only to negative horses. Also, many people and top breeders believe those with a single HERDA marker are more athletic/freaky linber. Just dont ever breed your mare to a horse with a marker and you wont have to worry about it. Statistics say she would produce 1 out of 4 foals with a single marker. So my advice is test her foals just so you know or prospective buyers know in case they want to breed that foal later in life. Being a carrier ( having a single marker) is not a death sentance, they dont have it and it doesnt effect them in the least unless bred to another carrier. |
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Never Named
Posts: 1837
Location: Southern Alabama | kasaj2000 - 2016-12-28 5:52 PM Rockyroad - 2016-12-28 9:20 AM kasaj2000 - 2016-12-28 4:11 AM If you breed responsibly (ie test mare and stallionand bred accordingly), there is not issue.
If you took every animal out of the breeding population that is a genetic carrier for a problem, there would be a VERY small pool of breeding animals left.
The Arabian community has this figured out. They test for SCID, some of the best breeding animals are carriers.
If being a carrier causes no health issue, why not still use that animal (if said animal has everything else going for it)? BUT - way too many use the word "Carrier" if they horse has one gene for PSSM for example (or HYPP), PSSM N/P1. They are NOT carriers in these diseases - they HAVE it. It only takes one to have it. Many people do not understand this and it's all about education. WAY too many breeders out there still breeding these diseases ahead and some that flat out LIE to their customers.
Yes! I am just trying to gain knowledge. My mare is heterozygous for HERDA, she has been 5 paneled tested and has also been genetic tested for color.... which I also know nothing about since I have only EVER owned bays and sorrels :P |
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Never Named
Posts: 1837
Location: Southern Alabama | ThreeCorners - 2016-12-29 7:50 AM TURNNBURNCOWGIRL - 2016-12-28 8:07 AM I ask because..... my grulla mare is heterozygous for HERDA. She carries the gene, but, is not affected by it. I know nothing about it so, I want to strengthen my knowledge base. Your mare will NEVER produce a HERDA effected foal if you NEVER breed her to another HERDA positive horse. She mare produce another carrier but will not produce one effected if bred only to negative horses. Also, many people and top breeders believe those with a single HERDA marker are more athletic/freaky linber. Just dont ever breed your mare to a horse with a marker and you wont have to worry about it. Statistics say she would produce 1 out of 4 foals with a single marker. So my advice is test her foals just so you know or prospective buyers know in case they want to breed that foal later in life. Being a carrier ( having a single marker) is not a death sentance, they dont have it and it doesnt effect them in the least unless bred to another carrier.
Thank you, ThreeCorners :)
?I am not very knowledgeable in this aspect of things... so, I am trying to broaden my horizon, here. I like to know anything and everything I can about things I come in direct contact with, and things I may not ever come in contact with. |
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 Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Knowledge is power. And when 'it' comes to breeding animals or buying vehicles, One cannot be over educated! |
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Never Named
Posts: 1837
Location: Southern Alabama | foundation horse - 2016-12-29 10:02 AM Knowledge is power. And when 'it' comes to breeding animals or buying vehicles, One cannot be over educated!
Thank you! I am really trying to strengthen my knowledge base, here. I don't know much about HERDA, never had the experience around it. I have, however, been around horses witb EPM, HYPP, and PSSM both 1 and 2. Such heart wrenching diseases. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 210
| My mom bought a pretty blue to an aqha mare from a well known local breeder. When she bought the mare she was 2. She looked pretty beat up but they turn all of their young ones out. To grow until they are 2 and they figured she was just accident prone. Anyways, by the time she was 3 and being saddled she would get sores all over her back where the saddle was. It literally looked like you took the hide off of her and what grew back was mushy feeling and horribly scarred. My mom had the vet out and had her tested and she was positive for herda. Both the stud and dam were carriers.
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 Fact Checker
Posts: 16575
Location: Displaced Iowegian | TURNNBURNCOWGIRL - 2016-12-27 4:02 PM Anything and everything.
?The good, the bad and the ugly. I have never had much experience with it.
No experience or suggestions....but where have you been, girlie ????? LOL
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Never Named
Posts: 1837
Location: Southern Alabama | NJJ - 2016-12-29 9:07 PM TURNNBURNCOWGIRL - 2016-12-27 4:02 PM Anything and everything.
?The good, the bad and the ugly. I have never had much experience with it. No experience or suggestions....but where have you been, girlie ????? LOL
I took a break from everything for awhile.... but, dun, dun, dun.... I'm baaaaaaaacccccccccccckkkkkkkk! :) |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Correction: When a horse is a single copy carrier, they will pass on the single copy carrier status 50% of the time when bred to a non-carrier.
If they are bred to another single copy carrier horse, they will statistically have 25% afflicted foals, 50% will be single copy carriers, 25% will be free of the gene. |
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Member
Posts: 8
| I am the owner of the mare in the Dec 2010 EQUUS Case Report article. My mare, Quality Sensation, out of Zippos Sensation and Investment Quality is affected with HERDA.
Please feel free to check out my website, www.herdahorse.com for more information. The site needs updating but the content still applies.
Documented issues include fragile skin, thin heart valves, problems with tendons and ligaments, eye ulcers (malformed eye tissue) and I believe studies on bone are in progress.
Yes, HERDA descends from Poco Bueno. Yes, there have been numerous cases of affected horses in the past 60 years (to the person who posted that, lol). There was an affected gelding purchased at the Congress sale about 5 years ago and a Paint filly was just put down in Germany, to name a few.
AQHA now requires a 5 panel genetic test and disclosure of test results for all breeding stallions prior to their offspring being registered.
APHA will require a 6 panel genetic test for all breeding stallions starting January 2018.
Humans have HERDA too, it's called Ehlers Danlos Syndrom. Like HERDA, the severity is unique to each individual. Those that are mildly affected look "normal" (think the bendy/flexy folks at Cirque du Soleil) and those that are severely affected have bodies that can barely hold themselves together (think wheelchair, braces, casts, lots of surgeries).
Please do not breed a HERDA affected horse. First, you will pass the disease to the foal (creating a carrier if you breed to a normal horse N/N). Second, studies have shown that women with EDS have a higher incidence of pregnancy complications. I don't have to tell the breeders out there how complicated breeding is in normal circumstances so why introduce a horse with a compromised body?
If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to me. From reading the thread, it looks like most people sent you really good and accurate information already.
Edited by Robin Davison 2017-01-01 2:28 PM
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Member
Posts: 8
| Just one important thing to note in breeding. Every time two carriers (N/HRD) are bred, there is a 25% chance of producing an affected horse. That means there is a 25% chance of producing one affected foal after another from the same pairing.
N/N Normal - horse does not have the HERDA gene.
N/HRD Carrier - horse carries one copy of the HERDA gene.
HRD/HRD Affected - horse has two copies of the HERDA gene. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Robin Davison - 2017-01-01 2:34 PM
Just one important thing to note in breeding. Every time two carriers (N/HRD) are bred, there is a 25% chance of producing an affected horse. That means there is a 25% chance of producing one affected foal after another from the same pairing.
N/N Normal - horse does not have the HERDA gene.
N/HRD Carrier - horse carries one copy of the HERDA gene.
HRD/HRD Affected - horse has two copies of the HERDA gene.
Thank you for coming on with first hand information.
Is your mare still alive?
Edited by Chandler's Mom 2017-01-02 12:13 AM
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Member
Posts: 8
| Yes, my mare is still alive. She will be 10 years old this April. She is alive because she is moderately affected and has been very well cared for (special dietary and supplement needs met and has been kept out of the sun during the sun's strongest hours).
Over the years she has competed in local shows in halter and showmanship. We did this until her intermittent lameness on her hind end (a side affect of having tendons and ligaments that stretch too far and although make for an athletic horse, it also makes for premature arthritis) was occurring too often. We have also participated in trail obstacle clinics from the ground, she has been a therapy horse, and was used as a demo horse for vet students (we flew in the top research vet to present).
Since she is moderately affected, we have been able to give her a comfortable life as a pasture horse. She eats in a private stall or pen and goes out with reasonably nice horses - she's been out with small mixed herds and mares alone. We have to make sure that her pasture is "clean", meaning no low hanging tree branches, loose barb wire, bushes with thorns, etc. Any injury she gets heals with a scar and her body usually exaggerates the injury (for example, if she gets a cut, she will have swelling around the cut the next day where a normal horse would not).
I would not wish this journey on anyone. Horses that are severely affected don't heal, cannot be sutured, and may have very sensitive skin. That is in addition to internal issues they may have that we can only see with further testing or necropsy.
I always advise that if an owner is not able to provide the care these horses need, putting them down is a humane option.
Hope this helps!
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Robin Davison - 2017-01-02 1:40 PM
Yes, my mare is still alive. She will be 10 years old this April. She is alive because she is moderately affected and has been very well cared for (special dietary and supplement needs met and has been kept out of the sun during the sun's strongest hours).
Over the years she has competed in local shows in halter and showmanship. We did this until her intermittent lameness on her hind end (a side affect of having tendons and ligaments that stretch too far and although make for an athletic horse, it also makes for premature arthritis) was occurring too often. We have also participated in trail obstacle clinics from the ground, she has been a therapy horse, and was used as a demo horse for vet students (we flew in the top research vet to present).
Since she is moderately affected, we have been able to give her a comfortable life as a pasture horse. She eats in a private stall or pen and goes out with reasonably nice horses - she's been out with small mixed herds and mares alone. We have to make sure that her pasture is "clean", meaning no low hanging tree branches, loose barb wire, bushes with thorns, etc. Any injury she gets heals with a scar and her body usually exaggerates the injury (for example, if she gets a cut, she will have swelling around the cut the next day where a normal horse would not).
I would not wish this journey on anyone. Horses that are severely affected don't heal, cannot be sutured, and may have very sensitive skin. That is in addition to internal issues they may have that we can only see with further testing or necropsy.
I always advise that if an owner is not able to provide the care these horses need, putting them down is a humane option.
Hope this helps!
What a blessing she got when she got you for her momma---most people would never have taken the time or spent the money or loved her enough to give her the life you have. What a special person you are. . . . |
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Tell me about HERDA