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 Scooters Savior
   
Location: "Si Fi" Ville | A friend of mine took both her horses to the vet. Both horses had crushed heels and one had huge deviation on angles on front feet.
Vet suggested square shoes on front of one and square shoes on all four feet of the other???
I don't understand this,can someone explain this to me? |
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest |  I would walk away from that vet with the horses. You should get an evaluation by a recommended shoer. |
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  Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | skye - 2017-01-05 8:38 PM
I would walk away from that vet with the horses. You should get an evaluation by a recommended shoer.
This. |
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Scooters Savior
Location: "Si Fi" Ville | I'm kinda worried I'm not gonna lie. |
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Member
Posts: 49
Location: Southerner | If the farrier knows the proper installation of the "square toed" shoes I love them. If the heels of your horses feet are suffering from improper shoeing, I would hope that your vet has suggested aa different shoer to apply them. It is the improper trim of your current horseshoer that has caused the problem. I see this every day of the week and unfortunately this is ongoing. I personally feel like you have an intuitive vet...pay attention. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Are you talking about Natural Balance Shoes? |
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Scooters Savior
Location: "Si Fi" Ville | I don't know if they are Natural Balance shoes. All she told me is that the vet is having their corrective shoer put square toe shoes on both mares.
I was trying to understand the whys and hows since I hadn't ever had this kind of problem.
My horses are all barefoot and get regular trimmings. |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | What vet? I am a huge fan of the PLR shoes when they are needed, sounds like the vet thinks the horses need the breakover point pulled back. |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | If the vet is a really good lameness vet I would trust your vet!! Here is a ton of info on bot sides of the fence. https://www.google.com/#q=square+toe+shoes+on+horses |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Barnmom - 2017-01-06 12:03 AM
What vet? I am a huge fan of the PLR shoes when they are needed, sounds like the vet thinks the horses need the breakover point pulled back.
Me too. Regardless, I think you should call your vet and get more information. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1100
Location: Southeastern Idaho | If the vet is talking about Natural Balance shoes then I would go ahead with it, as long as the farrier knows how to put them on.
I have a mare with a club foot that causes her heel to contract. She has heel pain if in normal shoes. With natural balance shoes her heel has never looked better, can't tell the club foot from the others unless you are looking for it. These shoes have saved her performing life.
I also had them put on another mare that needs help breaking over in front. She would jerk off front shoes during a barrel run every time and injure herself. Since the natural balance shoes she has not pulled a shoe and has not pulled her suspensories. For these 2 animals, natural balance shoes work. Not going to say they are for every horse, but for these two cases they have made a difference. |
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Location: Wherever the Army sends my husband | Square toes are not a type of shoe. It is squaring up the toes. If my mare doesn't have short square toes then she trips like crazy. I freaked out when I googled tripping horses. Its not lameness she is just lazy. I have had her looked at by 3 vets including 2 universities. However, finding a good farrier that can help you is just as difficult as finding good vets. I move all the time bc my hubby is military. It is a giant pita to find one that is knowledgeable. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 899
Location: Idaho | treasurehunter - 2017-01-06 7:33 PM
A friend of mine took both her horses to the vet. Both horses had crushed heels and one had huge deviation on angles on front feet.
Vet suggested square shoes on front of one and square shoes on all four feet of the other???
I don't understand this,can someone explain this to me?
This would be a farrier problem, and it sounds like you have a vet problem too.
Find a farrier that specializes in the naturally balanced foot and your problems should go away. No amount of shoe will correct a bad trim/shoe job. I don't know where your from, but I had to go through 4 farriers in the past year to finally get a good one. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1074
| We have 3 horses in Natural Balance Shoes. They are wonderful!! All 3 horses are really lame without them. The square toe brings the toe back and causes the horse to break over sooner. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10797
Location: Kansas | When you're talking about a horses hoof, somehow the words "natural" and square" sound like an oxymoron.
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 JMHO
Posts: 1869
Location: Oklahoma | I think the vet is trying to say that the horse has too much toe on all four feet with the low/crushed heals. The hoof is creating leverage that is causing problems (moved the break over point to far back in the hoof) and causing a dish in the front (leading) part of the hoof where it has to flex. Get rid if the toe, gets rid of the leverage, gets rid of a TON of soft tissue damage. Vet is trying to save your horse and you some $$.
You want your horse faster, make it easier for him to pick his feet up and move faster!! Simple
Or, you can leave it, trash your horse and make it easier for me to outrun you. Simple
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | We used to do that several years ago to increase break over. Especially on a navicular horse. I think it's mostly an older practice. I made my grandpa quit though because I had read it could make a horse sore and I didn't really see the point in it when my horses didn't have issues. Now days I think most set the shoe back on the toe and rasp it off at 40*s for breakover. It still creates a squared effect.
I don't think it makes sense to only do it on one foot, that would create a balance issue. Sounds like the horse needs corrective shoeing all the way around. You can square the toe off all you want but if you don't get the foot level in the first place it's not going to do much good. Sounds like your friend needs a new farrier. |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Frodo - 2017-01-06 11:57 AM When you're talking about a horses hoof, somehow the words "natural" and square" sound like an oxymoron.
I've seen more natural balance shoes cripple horses than any other kind. So no thanks. |
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Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| Natural Balance shoes (PLRs etc), require a certified farrier that understands X-rays and anatomy. They've saved my mares front feet and kept her working, and I'm grateful. They work to add breakover at the horses preferred (conformationally) points. Breakover points can be as personal as a fingerprint.
Cheating a horse by cutting his toes off in a square ruins the mechanics of the legs and feet. It also disallows correct breakover to the side, and ruins leverage points for take off. Ruins ruins ruins so much.
Working from the heel forward, cutting off the proper amount of foot (again, X-rays required to truly be accurate how much can be taken), then filing back with a rasp is what sets a foot up, whether barefoot or shod.
Working with Jo Schmoe that went to some four week farriers class is crazy and dangerous.
Working with an honest to goodness farrier, with years of training, apprenticeships, journeyman training, veterinarian conferences, and farrier competitions is the best thing you can do for a horse.
You can find a list of good ones by stateon https://americanfarriers.org/find-a-farrier/
For those that won't travel to a farrier, I have been in situations where a 6 hour one way trip is what I have done. You want a sound horse, you go to the ones that are trained and will do their best. Just like vets. Just like Doctors for us. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1118
| I use this premise on both of my horses. One has crushed heels and long toes. We don't necessarily square the toes, but we set the shoe back a little to give extra heel support a trim the toe back to ease the breakover. It has made a world of difference in my horses. |
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 Nothing Comes Easy
Posts: 2353
Location: Texas | I have a mare that requires a modified natural balance type shoeing. She has a bone spur on her navicular bone and ringbone on her short pastern. In order to keep her comfortable for the last 12 years, we use regular shoes, square the shoe slightly, bring it back, and rasp the toe to meet the shoe. From what I've been told this allows the foot to breakover faster, reducing the concussion on the heel. With the right shoer, I find this is very effective for my mare.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/14185/the-basics-of-breakover
This is one of the only pictures I can find of my horse's feet. This was after having some trouble finding a farrier when I first moved to Texas. The farrier I was using wasn't listening to me so this was the first time this one farrier touched her, and was fixing the other's mistakes. You can judge if you want, but this was from 2010 (?). She was wearing natural balance shoes in this picture, but was switched over to St. Croix after a few months. My mare is 16.2 hands and is very hard on her front end.
Edited by Stride 2017-01-06 7:41 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2122
Location: The Great Northwest | classicpotatochip - 2017-01-06 12:03 PM Natural Balance shoes (PLRs etc ), require a certified farrier that understands X-rays and anatomy. They've saved my mares front feet and kept her working, and I'm grateful. They work to add breakover at the horses preferred (conformationally ) points. Breakover points can be as personal as a fingerprint. Cheating a horse by cutting his toes off in a square ruins the mechanics of the legs and feet. It also disallows correct breakover to the side, and ruins leverage points for take off. Ruins ruins ruins so much. Working from the heel forward, cutting off the proper amount of foot (again, X-rays required to truly be accurate how much can be taken ), then filing back with a rasp is what sets a foot up, whether barefoot or shod. Working with Jo Schmoe that went to some four week farriers class is crazy and dangerous. Working with an honest to goodness farrier, with years of training, apprenticeships, journeyman training, veterinarian conferences, and farrier competitions is the best thing you can do for a horse. You can find a list of good ones by stateon https://americanfarriers.org/find-a-farrier/ For those that won't travel to a farrier, I have been in situations where a 6 hour one way trip is what I have done. You want a sound horse, you go to the ones that are trained and will do their best. Just like vets. Just like Doctors for us.
I feel that when the foots toe is squared it is like walking in square toed boot. I can feel the difference from a square toe boot and long toed boot. Squaring the toes on these horse has to interfere with the way some horses may need to break over which can cause soreness especially for 6 months and older. |
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Scooters Savior
Location: "Si Fi" Ville | The vet is a well known track vet and farrier is one of the top ones in the state, there are X-rays and she feels comfortable with it.
When I checked further into it, there were a number of the same opinions I saw on this thread. I had a lot of questions.
I feel terrible for her that due to a number of factors, that she has this problem.
Myself, I have a good farrier that specializes in a good trim. So far, I have had no need for shoes. |
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 Sock eating dog owner
Posts: 4557
Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | With long toe and no heel it is necessary to bring the toe back.Go to you tube and watch the different steps to bring the hoof back to axel point and you will understand the squaring off of the toe. A long toe is equivalent to wearing high heeled shoes on backward if you could. If you could see the hoof on a wild mustang, they wear their hooves down to a square at the toe. If the farrier is a hot shoer and makes his own then he knows how to balance that shoe. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| treasurehunter - 2017-01-06 9:42 PM
The vet is a well known track vet and farrier is one of the top ones in the state, there are X-rays and she feels comfortable with it.
When I checked further into it, there were a number of the same opinions I saw on this thread. I had a lot of questions.
I feel terrible for her that due to a number of factors, that she has this problem.
Myself, I have a good farrier that specializes in a good trim. So far, I have had no need for shoes.
Make sure she resets every 4 weeks. With underslung heels you need to pull them back more frequently cause if the toe gets too long it will pull the heel forward. Even with squared shoes this can occur.
With what you described this horse could have been left too long between resets to cause the problems you described.
Personally I trust my vet over my farrier, but my vet also graduated/passed the farrier course from Oklahoma. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1100
Location: Southeastern Idaho | cheryl makofka - 2017-01-07 12:51 AM
treasurehunter - 2017-01-06 9:42 PM
The vet is a well known track vet and farrier is one of the top ones in the state, there are X-rays and she feels comfortable with it.
When I checked further into it, there were a number of the same opinions I saw on this thread. I had a lot of questions.
I feel terrible for her that due to a number of factors, that she has this problem.
Myself, I have a good farrier that specializes in a good trim. So far, I have had no need for shoes.
Make sure she resets every 4 weeks. With underslung heels you need to pull them back more frequently cause if the toe gets too long it will pull the heel forward. Even with squared shoes this can occur.
With what you described this horse could have been left too long between resets to cause the problems you described.
Personally I trust my vet over my farrier, but my vet also graduated/passed the farrier course from Oklahoma.
Totally agree. When you use these type of shoes (Natural Balance) or similar brands you do have to reset more often. I can get 5 weeks comfortably with my club foot mare. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | skye - 2017-01-06 7:35 PM classicpotatochip - 2017-01-06 12:03 PM Natural Balance shoes (PLRs etc ), require a certified farrier that understands X-rays and anatomy. They've saved my mares front feet and kept her working, and I'm grateful. They work to add breakover at the horses preferred (conformationally ) points. Breakover points can be as personal as a fingerprint. Cheating a horse by cutting his toes off in a square ruins the mechanics of the legs and feet. It also disallows correct breakover to the side, and ruins leverage points for take off. Ruins ruins ruins so much. Working from the heel forward, cutting off the proper amount of foot (again, X-rays required to truly be accurate how much can be taken ), then filing back with a rasp is what sets a foot up, whether barefoot or shod. Working with Jo Schmoe that went to some four week farriers class is crazy and dangerous. Working with an honest to goodness farrier, with years of training, apprenticeships, journeyman training, veterinarian conferences, and farrier competitions is the best thing you can do for a horse. You can find a list of good ones by stateon https://americanfarriers.org/find-a-farrier/ For those that won't travel to a farrier, I have been in situations where a 6 hour one way trip is what I have done. You want a sound horse, you go to the ones that are trained and will do their best. Just like vets. Just like Doctors for us.
I do hope you know that the NB shoes are a round shoe just like any other shoe but because of the plate that goes across the toe just gives it an appearance of being square. |
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Shoeing with square toed shoes???