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 BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | How many of you have heard of it? Is it a problem? Do some barrel racers use it on their horses? |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Yep heard of it and its a BIG no no for race horses, why do you ask? 
Edit to add its illegal to use in any horse sport world.
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2017-01-16 10:37 AM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Is it a "big no no" in barrel racing?
Is it being used by some cheaters? Is it even cheating?
Is it being kept "hush hush"? If so why?
I'm just trying to get an idea about the level of knowledge on this topic. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-16 10:50 AM Is it a "big no no" in barrel racing? Is it being used by some cheaters? Is it even cheating? Is it being kept "hush hush"? If so why? I'm just trying to get an idea about the level of knowledge on this topic.
Humm I'm going to google it, lol.. But my thoughts would a illegal drug be that easy to buy and shooting up any type of horse would be illegal and cheating I would think,, ok off to google I go to see if any thing comes up..  |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-16 11:01 AM
Bear - 2017-01-16 10:50 AM Is it a "big no no" in barrel racing? Is it being used by some cheaters? Is it even cheating? Is it being kept "hush hush"? If so why? I'm just trying to get an idea about the level of knowledge on this topic.
Humm I'm going to google it, lol.. But my thoughts would a illegal drug be that easy to buy and shooting up any type of horse would be illegal and cheating I would think,, ok off to google I go to see if any thing comes up..
Exactly. I don't think many people know much about it, other than there seems to be an unwritten rule that makes it taboo to bring it up. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | "Frog Juice" is the street name for Dermorphin. Here are some FACTS about Dermorphin:
1.) It was first isolated from the skin of a frog in South America.
2.) It is an addictive, illegal narcotic, very closely related to Heroin and Morphine.
3.) It has not been approved by the FDA for any medical use whatsoever.
4.) It has been illegally used in the TB and QH industry for decades.
5.) It wasn't detectable in drug testing, until 2012, when a test was developed for drug testing.
6.) It is 30-40 times more potent than Morphine and Heroin.
7.) It is synthesized fairly easily. Frogs are no longer necessary.
8.) It is a powerful pain reliever that produces profound euphoria. Horses run through pain.....gleefully.
9.) While opiates generally have a slowing effect on locomotor activity in humans and animals, Dermorphin ("Frog Juice") has a paradoxical INCREASED locomotor activity...ie: they run faster!
10.) Frog Juice (Dermorphin) is a cheater's wet dream. It's a perfect drug for a barrel racer who is willing to cheat to win. |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-16 11:10 AM Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-16 11:01 AM Bear - 2017-01-16 10:50 AM Is it a "big no no" in barrel racing? Is it being used by some cheaters? Is it even cheating? Is it being kept "hush hush"? If so why? I'm just trying to get an idea about the level of knowledge on this topic. Humm I'm going to google it, lol.. But my thoughts would a illegal drug be that easy to buy and shooting up any type of horse would be illegal and cheating I would think,, ok off to google I go to see if any thing comes up.. Exactly. I don't think many people know much about it, other than there seems to be an unwritten rule that makes it taboo to bring it up.
Havent done any googling yet, but this is a interesting topic if it is in the Barrel racing world..Would love to hear what others have to say about the use of this drug..And your right I dont know much about it at all, all I know is its a illegal drug that some race horse trainers used and got busted for { now, I did say some NOT all trainers}  |
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Posts: 2258
| I do not know a great deal about it but saw trainers using it when we raced. I also watched some of those horses snap legs off and keep running it was terrible! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | http://www.frogjuice.org/index.html |
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Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | I've only heard about it on the track side. Have yet to hear or know of anyone using it for barrels... Very interesting can of worms you opened there Bear. Curious to hear other responses.  |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Here is an assortment of cases involving Frog Juice. QH trainers included. Imagine if a person could get their hands on some of this stuff.
http://www.paulickreport.com/tag/Frog-Juice/ |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 11:28 AM
I've only heard about it on the track side. Have yet to hear or know of anyone using it for barrels... Very interesting can of worms you opened there Bear. Curious to hear other responses.
I first heard of "Frog Juice" several years ago when I lived in Minnesota. The remark was something like "So and so will use anything to win.....she uses that Frog Juice". I didn't think much of it at the time, probably because I assumed it was just another supplement.
It sounds like the perfect designer drug for cheaters. Kills pain, creates euphoria, makes them run faster. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 11:28 AM
I've only heard about it on the track side. Have yet to hear or know of anyone using it for barrels... Very interesting can of worms you opened there Bear. Curious to hear other responses.
What makes it a "can of worms"? |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-16 11:35 AM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 11:28 AM I've only heard about it on the track side. Have yet to hear or know of anyone using it for barrels... Very interesting can of worms you opened there Bear. Curious to hear other responses. I first heard of "Frog Juice" several years ago when I lived in Minnesota. The remark was something like "So and so will use anything to win.....she uses that Frog Juice". I didn't think much of it at the time, probably because I assumed it was just another supplement. It sounds like the perfect designer drug for cheaters. Kills pain, creates euphoria, makes them run faster.
The only thing I thought of when I read your thread title was "Toad Juice." It's an antimicrobial and antifungal cleansing spray LOL
Never heard of Frog Juice tho. Makes me wonder how many times I've lost to Frog Juice |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-16 11:36 AM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 11:28 AM I've only heard about it on the track side. Have yet to hear or know of anyone using it for barrels... Very interesting can of worms you opened there Bear. Curious to hear other responses. What makes it a "can of worms"?
I didn't mean it in a bad way. You implied it was taboo to talk about. A contraversial topic if you will. Wrong use of wording. Sorry Bear!  |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Nevertooold - 2017-01-16 11:49 AM
Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels.
Go to some of the big futurities and it will make u wonder! I've heard of many different kinds of drugs including that one that has been given to horses running for a lot of money! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2017-01-16 11:49 AM
Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels.
Frog juice is more than a "calmative". |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Here.....I guess you can order the stuff:
http://www.abbiotec.com/peptides/dermorphin
Here's another site:
http://www.phoenixpeptide.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&pro...
Edited by Bear 2017-01-16 12:19 PM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas |
I wonder how they can sell this stuff if its never been approved for medical use in animals and human and its 30-40 times more potent then morphine Wow.. Could this stuff cause heart attacts while in use? What a high risk to be using.. And I thought this was a illegal drug and its being sold over the internet?!!! Interesting for sure |
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| Nevertooold - 2017-01-16 11:49 AM
Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels.
That's what I was thinking. . . my horse is naturally on her own kind of frog juice already!!! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-16 12:23 PM
I wonder how they can sell this stuff if its never been approved for medical use in animals and human and its 30-40 times more potent then morphine Wow.. Could this stuff cause heart attacts while in use? What a high risk to be using.. And I thought this was a illegal drug and its being sold over the internet?!!! Interesting for sure
Actually, a person can get a lot of illegal drugs online.
Here's a quote from one article. Note the mention of INCREASED locomotor activity in horses. How many of you have felt like running fast after a Morphine or Dilaudid shot?
“Dermorphin is a substance that has been demonstrated to act as an agonist at the mu-opiate receptor,” Sams says. “Other mu-opiate agonists are morphine, fentanyl, and etorphine. We typically associate these substances with analgesic effects in people and dogs, but they produce a paradoxical effect in horses that results in increased locomotor activity at low doses and low blood concentrations.”
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Here's a handy site for one stop shopping. You can get winstrol here too.
http://www.mcsteroids.am/product/dermorphin/ |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| mreklaw - 2017-01-16 11:56 AM Nevertooold - 2017-01-16 11:49 AM Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels. Go to some of the big futurities and it will make u wonder! I've heard of many different kinds of drugs including that one that has been given to horses running for a lot of money!
Edited by rodeomom3 2017-01-16 12:58 PM
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | rodeomom3 - 2017-01-16 1:57 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 11:56 AM Nevertooold - 2017-01-16 11:49 AM Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels. Go to some of the big futurities and it will make u wonder! I've heard of many different kinds of drugs including that one that has been given to horses running for a lot of money!
what does it make you wonder about?
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas |
Why post this and give idiots ideas? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM
Why post this and give idiots ideas?
I'm not sure "idiots" is the descriptor I'd use.
It took me a couple minutes to find sites that sell this stuff. I wouldn't recommend it, even if you want to cheat. If these drugs are illegal, or "prescription only", just because they are obtainable through the Internet doesn't protect you from prosecution. The DEA has made this fact clear. Even anabolic steroids like Winstrol are illegal. In fact, there are sites that hire licensed "doctors" to prescribe online. They are illegal in most states as well. You have to be seen in person. |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
Idiots have ideas regardless. The people who use this already are aware of where to get it. The people, like myself, who had no idea what this stuff even was can now be on the lookout for the signs and symptoms of use and maybe report it if we see anything shady going on.
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL  |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear. |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| I had never heard of it.. I am continually astounded by the lengths some people will go to to win. Sometimes it is the people many admire. I have been told that I do not have what it takes to be at the top. If THAT is what it takes, then I guess I don't. I will take being RESPECTED as a horseman and take pride tat I have not ruined any along the way.
Walking way and shaking my head. |
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| There is not a doubt in my mind that there are those who would run on this, along with whatever else is out there they can put in a syringe and stick their horse with. I believe we don’t see as much in the barrel horse world (compared to the racehorse world) because obviously the payouts are generally larger in the racing industry. JMO.
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
| turnthree - 2017-01-16 2:48 PM
There is not a doubt in my mind that there are those who would run on this, along with whatever else is out there they can put in a syringe and stick their horse with. I believe we don’t see as much in the barrel horse world (compared to the racehorse world) because obviously the payouts are generally larger in the racing industry. JMO.
The racehorse world is extremely regulated, and they test the horses continually. In the barrel racing world, especially rodeo, you can shoot your horse up with just about anything and not get caught. I've never heard of drug testing at rodeos? Has anyone experienced this? |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | IowaCanChaser - 2017-01-16 3:04 PM turnthree - 2017-01-16 2:48 PM There is not a doubt in my mind that there are those who would run on this, along with whatever else is out there they can put in a syringe and stick their horse with. I believe we don’t see as much in the barrel horse world (compared to the racehorse world) because obviously the payouts are generally larger in the racing industry. JMO. The racehorse world is extremely regulated, and they test the horses continually. In the barrel racing world, especially rodeo, you can shoot your horse up with just about anything and not get caught. I've never heard of drug testing at rodeos? Has anyone experienced this?
Never been tested.... Never known anyone to be tested. But maybe if we see signs of use we can report it and they can test? |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Well, my guess is that giving it occasionally probably wouldn't cause addiction. The lasting negative effects would be physical injuries, I would suppose. By masking the pain and creating euphoria, a horse will just run through it and compound the problem, possibly costing their lives.
If you give it often enough, I'm sure it would lead to addiction, but I'm not well versed in addiction in animals.
The more important point is that it's cheating. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM
I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO.
Why? |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 356
| IowaCanChaser - 2017-01-16 3:04 PM
turnthree - 2017-01-16 2:48 PM
There is not a doubt in my mind that there are those who would run on this, along with whatever else is out there they can put in a syringe and stick their horse with. I believe we don’t see as much in the barrel horse world (compared to the racehorse world) because obviously the payouts are generally larger in the racing industry. JMO.
The racehorse world is extremely regulated, and they test the horses continually. In the barrel racing world, especially rodeo, you can shoot your horse up with just about anything and not get caught. I've never heard of drug testing at rodeos? Has anyone experienced this?
The WPRA has a drug testing program. I do know some people who have been randomly pulled. I don't believe they test at every single rodeo though. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
IMO---and you know this also, barrel racing is all about a horse reacting to the rider, if it is in a state of Euphoria--I think this reaction time would suffer. |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
I don't necessarily believe the reaction time would suffer.
Websters describes Euphoria as: an intense state of happiness or excitement. Reaction time isn't a variable. If anything it's heightened. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 4:26 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
Websters describes Euphoria as: an intense state of happiness or excitement. Reaction time isn't a variable. If anything it's heightened.
Very well could be. I have heard of people on Heroin, which this is compared to but stronger and I doubt their reaction times are the best. LOL |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Bear - 2017-01-16 4:31 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why? It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
Quit using all your big doctor words. LOL. Very well could be true---then we are back to square one---it is cheating and the horse WILL suffer. |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:29 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 4:26 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
Websters describes Euphoria as: an intense state of happiness or excitement. Reaction time isn't a variable. If anything it's heightened.
LOL
Bear stated it has reverse effects on animals. For people it is a "downer" if you will. For horses it is an "upper". |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-16 3:31 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why? It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
That's my understanding from googling. Lol
SO for those just tuning in:
Yes it has the properties of Morphine and other Narcotics. No it does not have the same effect on horses like it does people. in fact, it's opposite. Instead of making one calm it gives the horse the feeling of Euphoria. Otherwise defined as an intense state of happiness and excitement. Therefore making the reaction time to the rider quicker and allowing the horse to run through pain and other physical obstacles.
I am curious what the lasting effects of horses are who are exposed to this type of lifestyle. Do they have withdrawls? What are the symptoms? Do they breakdown faster? (I would think so.) And is it noticeable on the ground or just when running a horse? Does one notice something off about the horse?
I would like to think that no one cheats but after learning this exists I can't be so sure anymore. I'd really like to know what to look for so I can report if I see anything. But I don't know what to look for. I feel like I would look petty if I turned a girl in for being "fast" LOL |
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Expert
Posts: 1414
| rodeoveteran - 2017-01-16 3:28 PM
I had never heard of it.. I am continually astounded by the lengths some people will go to to win. Sometimes it is the people many admire. I have been told that I do not have what it takes to be at the top. If THAT is what it takes, then I guess I don't. I will take being RESPECTED as a horseman and take pride tat I have not ruined any along the way.
Walking way and shaking my head.
AMEN!!!! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 3:44 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 3:31 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why? It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
SO for those just tuning in:
Yes it has the properties of Morphine and other Narcotics. No it does not have the same effect on horses like it does people. in fact, it's opposite. Instead of making one calm it gives the horse the feeling of Euphoria. Otherwise defined as an intense state of happiness and excitement. Therefore making the reaction time to the rider quicker and allowing the horse to run through pain and other physical obstacles.
I am curious what the lasting effects of horses are who are exposed to this type of lifestyle. Do they have withdrawls? What are the symptoms? Do they breakdown faster? (I would think so.) And is it noticeable on the ground or just when running a horse? Does one notice something off about the horse?
I would like to think that no one cheats but after learning this exists I can't be so sure anymore. I'd really like to know what to look for so I can report if I see anything. But I don't know what to look for. I feel like I would look petty if I turned a girl in for being "fast" LOL
It's tough to prove without actually testing. People inject all sorts of perfectly legal things like Adequan and Legend and Banamine.
Random testing and consequences for a dirty test seems to be the only viable approach. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Bear - 2017-01-16 4:54 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 3:44 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 3:31 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why? It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
SO for those just tuning in:
Yes it has the properties of Morphine and other Narcotics. No it does not have the same effect on horses like it does people. in fact, it's opposite. Instead of making one calm it gives the horse the feeling of Euphoria. Otherwise defined as an intense state of happiness and excitement. Therefore making the reaction time to the rider quicker and allowing the horse to run through pain and other physical obstacles.
I am curious what the lasting effects of horses are who are exposed to this type of lifestyle. Do they have withdrawls? What are the symptoms? Do they breakdown faster? (I would think so.) And is it noticeable on the ground or just when running a horse? Does one notice something off about the horse?
I would like to think that no one cheats but after learning this exists I can't be so sure anymore. I'd really like to know what to look for so I can report if I see anything. But I don't know what to look for. I feel like I would look petty if I turned a girl in for being "fast" LOL It's tough to prove without actually testing. People inject all sorts of perfectly legal things like Adequan and Legend and Banamine. Random testing and consequences for a dirty test seems to be the only viable approach.
Yep---people talk drugs and they do not realize that in the racing world---Ace is illegal, it is used so common in barrel racing people do not think about it. Clenbutoral also--ILLEGAL. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 915
Location: SE KS | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 3:26 PM
Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
Websters describes Euphoria as: an intense state of happiness or excitement. Reaction time isn't a variable. If anything it's heightened.
Sounds like maybe it would cause "focus" issues for the horse if it causes a heightened sense of excitement Maybe? |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | lhighquality - 2017-01-16 3:59 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 3:26 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why?
Websters describes Euphoria as: an intense state of happiness or excitement. Reaction time isn't a variable. If anything it's heightened. Sounds like maybe it would cause "focus" issues for the horse if it causes a heightened sense of excitement Maybe?
I think it would be possible to cause the lack of focus. Then again, race horses need to focus as well.... |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-16 3:54 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 3:44 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 3:31 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why? It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
SO for those just tuning in:
Yes it has the properties of Morphine and other Narcotics. No it does not have the same effect on horses like it does people. in fact, it's opposite. Instead of making one calm it gives the horse the feeling of Euphoria. Otherwise defined as an intense state of happiness and excitement. Therefore making the reaction time to the rider quicker and allowing the horse to run through pain and other physical obstacles.
I am curious what the lasting effects of horses are who are exposed to this type of lifestyle. Do they have withdrawls? What are the symptoms? Do they breakdown faster? (I would think so.) And is it noticeable on the ground or just when running a horse? Does one notice something off about the horse?
I would like to think that no one cheats but after learning this exists I can't be so sure anymore. I'd really like to know what to look for so I can report if I see anything. But I don't know what to look for. I feel like I would look petty if I turned a girl in for being "fast" LOL It's tough to prove without actually testing. People inject all sorts of perfectly legal things like Adequan and Legend and Banamine. Random testing and consequences for a dirty test seems to be the only viable approach.
Very interesting topic Bear.
I'm not familiar with perfectly legal drugs or how they are misused either. I know Adequan is for joints and Banamine is for pain. I'm not familiar with Legend?
Are these products misused as well in barrel horses? I mean, I guess it's possible to inject Banamine and then run if your horse is sore. They wouldn't feel the pain... But I feel Like that would only cause more problems for the horse. If not make them deteriorate faster.
People genuinely don't care for their horses well being or longevity when they do this, do they? I would think people cared for their horses more than that...  |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | Heard of it years ago....even have suspicions of who uses it up here....m |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 4:08 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 3:54 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 3:44 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 3:31 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 4:12 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 3:07 PM I have heard it used in TB racing, "certain" people that had a magic concoction and would claim once classy horses that had dropped to the claiming races then MAGICALLY two weeks later they are back in allowance form but I do not think it would be a great benefit in barrel racing. The Euphoria you speak of would probably be a problem in barrel racing. IMO. Why? It sounds to me that the unique property of this drug is "increased locomotor activity". It that's true, I would think their reaction time is enhanced. That's what I think would make this drug particularly attractive in barrel racing. People who have received an opiate narcotic have slowed reaction times, but it sounds like the reverse is true in horses.....hence the term, "paradoxical".
SO for those just tuning in:
Yes it has the properties of Morphine and other Narcotics. No it does not have the same effect on horses like it does people. in fact, it's opposite. Instead of making one calm it gives the horse the feeling of Euphoria. Otherwise defined as an intense state of happiness and excitement. Therefore making the reaction time to the rider quicker and allowing the horse to run through pain and other physical obstacles.
I am curious what the lasting effects of horses are who are exposed to this type of lifestyle. Do they have withdrawls? What are the symptoms? Do they breakdown faster? (I would think so.) And is it noticeable on the ground or just when running a horse? Does one notice something off about the horse?
I would like to think that no one cheats but after learning this exists I can't be so sure anymore. I'd really like to know what to look for so I can report if I see anything. But I don't know what to look for. I feel like I would look petty if I turned a girl in for being "fast" LOL It's tough to prove without actually testing. People inject all sorts of perfectly legal things like Adequan and Legend and Banamine. Random testing and consequences for a dirty test seems to be the only viable approach.
I'm not familiar with perfectly legal drugs or how they are misused either. I know Adequan is for joints and Banamine is for pain. I'm not familiar with Legend?
Are these products misused as well in barrel horses? I mean, I guess it's possible to inject Banamine and then run if your horse is sore. They wouldn't feel the pain... But I feel Like that would only cause more problems for the horse. If not make them deteriorate faster.
People genuinely don't care for their horses well being or longevity when they do this, do they? I would think people cared for their horses more than that...
There's no comparison between something like Banamine versus an opiate for pain relief. The euphoria is a big reason.
The root meaning of "morphine" is derived from Greek mythology, where "Morpheus" was the "God of dreams." |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I always thought that Banamine was euphoric also, an I wrong ? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-16 5:29 PM
I always thought that Banamine was euphoric also, an I wrong ?
Banamine is an NSAID like ibuprofen. NSAIDS don't cause euphoria. |
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 Saint Stacey
| Yes, I've known about it for a few years. Yes, it's a problem. I have no doubt some barrel racers (mainly in the futurity industry) use it. I know they randomly test at Calgary. Beyond that you don't see rodeo's test very often. I don't think you could get away with using it a lot on a rodeo horse. But in the futurity world....certain trainers view those horses as being a disposable commodity. Who cares if you go through 50 head to find one that's good? Especially with how those slots races pay out now. It's been going on as long as I can remember. Look at the whole fiasco at the BFA in, I believe it was '95?? When the well known trainer shot the horse up with something, was overheard saying it would either kill it or make it win and it killed it. Might add two dear friends of mine witnessed the entire thing, went to help and were told there was no point and to go away. |
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Veteran
Posts: 129
| Futurity horses should be tested - period. |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| 1DSoon - 2017-01-16 1:20 PM rodeomom3 - 2017-01-16 1:57 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 11:56 AM Nevertooold - 2017-01-16 11:49 AM Most barrel racers I know use calmatives. Not something to make them run faster. Racehorses don't have to turn 3 barrels. Go to some of the big futurities and it will make u wonder! I've heard of many different kinds of drugs including that one that has been given to horses running for a lot of money! what does it make you wonder about?
Doesn't make me wonder but agree that it, along with other substances are used quite often |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| I think I need to start using this. My horse would surely enjoy it and I think I could definitely improve my time. Any little thing to help. Maybe I can find someone to drive home. |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | In my veterinary infancy... we aren't taught any of the bad stuff...but I know the older guys know what illegal stuff is out there and what people do because I've definitely gotten the vibe that barrel racers are known for hopping their horses. I was basically told I would get a rude awakening of what people are going to ask me to do in a few short months that I have no idea about.. I'll try and keep my jaw from hitting the floor LOL. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect? |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | casualdust07 - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
In my veterinary infancy... we aren't taught any of the bad stuff...but I know the older guys know what illegal stuff is out there and what people do because I've definitely gotten the vibe that barrel racers are known for hopping their horses. I was basically told I would get a rude awakening of what people are going to ask me to do in a few short months that I have no idea about.. I'll try and keep my jaw from hitting the floor LOL.
I was hoping you would chime in, doc. |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect?
I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | I've heard of some very well known ladies using frog juice. I personally have never seen them use it, this is all second hand. One of the horses in question is barely pasture sound now |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title.
I think Bear has suspicions....
Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests.
I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him.
I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 725
| Most people can't handle their horses normally, and give them calming meds, I can't even imagine a barrel horse on this! Yikes! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | iloveequine40 - 2017-01-16 8:22 PM
I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title.
I think Bear has suspicions....
Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests.
I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him.
I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed
You are right. There has to be specific testing for it. Supposedly, until 2012 there was no test to detect Frog Juice. |
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Expert
Posts: 1409
Location: Oklahoma | There is a lot of people with there heads in the sand! This has been around and so many other drugs for so long. There is always gonna be cheaters and what is so sad is at the expense of the horse. I worked for a trainer at his house with race horses and what saw was very eye opening because I always heard but never witness and it is a whole other thing to see! I don't know if it was frog juice but it was red in the syringe, he gave to horse within 10 mins horse was running in stall and kicking and bucking and sweating like crazy like he couldn't stand himself! This was like on a Monday or Tuesday the horse was gonna run that weekend. I asked what is the point of this now if not running til weekend his response said that it wont test if give early in the week. but if out of system enough to not test what is the point??? It was heartbreaking to see the horse! There was other stuff too I quit I don't have the stomach for it! I would rather sit at home with a healthy horse than to have to shoot them up! they are athletes and I believe in helping them with meds to help them thru if need be. One time I was at a rodeo and watched a girl give her horse something to hype horse up and after run give him something to calm him down. Horse couldn't stand himself pacing and pawing I didn't even ask what she was giving him truth be known I didn't want to know! It is in all the worlds! I would bet money even in dog races and whatever else is out there. Even if they get caught they will do again but be sneaker unless completely kicked out like I assume Lance Armstrong was. If its not frog juice it will be something else! Or a combination which would be just as bad or worse! |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect?
I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet.
What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin.
I didn't give anyone any evil ideas. |
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Expert
Posts: 1409
Location: Oklahoma | Thanks Bear for bringing this up! People need to be aware. And know the consequences for their horses if they go this route! I have heard and seen so many times this work for my horse you should try this. I am more aware than I ever was before in my life! (not referring to Frog Juice just in general!) |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-16 9:15 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL Ignorance is bliss. That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent? Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear. My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win... What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high? Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win. So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse? Is that what you are saying? Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect? I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet. What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin. I didn't give anyone any evil ideas.
Theres plenty of crazy a$$ people out there that does all these evil things to their horse and what ever else they have, Bear dont have to put any evil ideals out there, they are already there and have been for many many years. |
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Expert
Posts: 1409
Location: Oklahoma | Also the way I look at it is this I was very sheltered as a kid growing up I didn't have a clue bout drugs that kids I went to school was doing. Had no clue they symptoms or anything or what they used like those smoke bombs for smoking. I was in my 20's when I learned everything! I was asst. Manger for apartment complex for low income My first couple I leased in I learned what Russia (cant remember the word) was. The young man lost and lost his life in front of wife and his 1 year old So I got a crash course in the other world. I know that this is getting away from the frog juice bet someone stated that shouldn't bring this to life, well it might help someone if they know the consequences for their horse may deter them from trying if someone says here give this to your horse because it helped mine and we are winning. but then again may not deter them. |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-16 9:15 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect?
I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet.
What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin.
I didn't give anyone any evil ideas.
Yes they could but only if they had knowledge of it to begin with. If you only enlightened one person that's one too many. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | mreklaw - 2017-01-16 9:26 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 9:15 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect?
I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet.
What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin.
I didn't give anyone any evil ideas.
Yes they could but only if they had knowledge of it to begin with. If you only enlightened one person that's one too many.
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you've been saying.
If someone is so dumb as to conclude that using Frog Juice sounds like a swell idea after reading this thread, at least we can take some consolation in knowing that their chances of contributing to the gene pool is marginal. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 415
| Thank you for posting this! I'm always up for learning, but I also think doping is taboo to talk about in the barrel racing world and needs to be brought up more, even if it makes people uncomfortable or mad. I know at the AQHA plesaure shows, they test as the lady I board with has been tested a few times. The problem she said she had was that they had a quota of shows to test for and sometimes they would show up at small shows (she suspects they don't want to get the big wigs in trouble) but then again, I suppose if you were the type of person to drug a horse you might get away with it at a smaller show easier...potentially?
I have a horse that has to run on Ventipulmin which I believe is illegal in some associations, and I would need to have my vet write a note saying she has a legitimate medical condition. That's what sucks about the illegal drugs people abuse, because others are using them for an actual condition. Also HIGHLY agree futurity horses should be tested. Anyone know why they aren't?? |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-16 9:55 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 9:26 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 9:15 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect?
I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet.
What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin.
I didn't give anyone any evil ideas.
Yes they could but only if they had knowledge of it to begin with. If you only enlightened one person that's one too many.
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you've been saying.
If someone is so dumb as to conclude that using Frog Juice sounds like a swell idea after reading this thread, at least we can take some consolation in knowing that their chances of contributing to the gene pool is marginal.
Well I won't insult your intelligence because you obviously don't get my point. That kind of person that would try this cares nothing about their animal. They just want to win at any cost.Hey call me sometime and I will give you a list of other drugs I have heard of people using. The list is long unfortunately. You can't change it by talking about it either. That kind of person will always exist so obviously they are contributing to the gene pool. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| Bear - 2017-01-16 9:10 PM
iloveequine40 - 2017-01-16 8:22 PM
I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title.
I think Bear has suspicions....
Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests.
I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him.
I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed
You are right. There has to be specific testing for it. Supposedly, until 2012 there was no test to detect Frog Juice.
That's what I read too. So random drug testing at rodeos or futurity would most likely not be testing for frog juice bc it's "effect" goes against the idea of what most barrel racers desire in their horse.
We had a horse run in DFC futurity trials at Lonestar. He won his trial and as soon as winner circle pic was taken he was escorted immediately and with security to the testing barn. I couldn't even go to the backstretch to see him until he was finished. When I went to pick him up during the Texas Classic Futurity weekend my truck/trailer had to be clear of everything. They searched going in and out. Even made me take off my boots. The race horse industry is leaps and bounds ahead of other industry in regulating. With all these big races futurity, American the spotlight is being turned on and it won't be long before treatment/drug use comes front and center.
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| years ago we vet checked a horse that ALWAYS drew a 1D check-500 + entries-same trip every time, watched him often, never took a lame step. At the vet he was so cripple in his hind end he could barley lope a circle. My vet took me aside and said he was going to shoot x-rays at no cost because he was curious, his hocks were toast, ligaments calcified. I have always wondered what they were giving the poor horse to keep him going. He died of a heart attack about a year after we passed on buying him, no idea if it was related to him being drugged.
Edited by rodeomom3 2017-01-17 7:16 AM
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | iloveequine40 - 2017-01-17 5:48 AM Bear - 2017-01-16 9:10 PM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-16 8:22 PM I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title. I think Bear has suspicions.... Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests. I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him. I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed You are right. There has to be specific testing for it. Supposedly, until 2012 there was no test to detect Frog Juice. That's what I read too. So random drug testing at rodeos or futurity would most likely not be testing for frog juice bc it's "effect" goes against the idea of what most barrel racers desire in their horse. We had a horse run in DFC futurity trials at Lonestar. He won his trial and as soon as winner circle pic was taken he was escorted immediately and with security to the testing barn. I couldn't even go to the backstretch to see him until he was finished. When I went to pick him up during the Texas Classic Futurity weekend my truck/trailer had to be clear of everything. They searched going in and out. Even made me take off my boots. The race horse industry is leaps and bounds ahead of other industry in regulating. With all these big races futurity, American the spotlight is being turned on and it won't be long before treatment/drug use comes front and center.
The thing that people always miss when discussing drugs in horse racing is that it has nothing to do with the welfare of the horse or a anything like that---they want to keep an even playing field for the betting public. There is no gambling(legally) on barrel racing so I do not see drug testing happening in a large scale.
Yes, at most tracks the winner is tested and at out TB track one random is pulled from each race.
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 6:58 AM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-17 5:48 AM Bear - 2017-01-16 9:10 PM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-16 8:22 PM I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title. I think Bear has suspicions.... Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests. I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him. I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed You are right. There has to be specific testing for it. Supposedly, until 2012 there was no test to detect Frog Juice. That's what I read too. So random drug testing at rodeos or futurity would most likely not be testing for frog juice bc it's "effect" goes against the idea of what most barrel racers desire in their horse. We had a horse run in DFC futurity trials at Lonestar. He won his trial and as soon as winner circle pic was taken he was escorted immediately and with security to the testing barn. I couldn't even go to the backstretch to see him until he was finished. When I went to pick him up during the Texas Classic Futurity weekend my truck/trailer had to be clear of everything. They searched going in and out. Even made me take off my boots. The race horse industry is leaps and bounds ahead of other industry in regulating. With all these big races futurity, American the spotlight is being turned on and it won't be long before treatment/drug use comes front and center.
Yes, at most tracks the winner is tested and at out TB track one random is pulled from each race.
I have read that here are so many various forms of it that you have to know specifically which one to test for making it virtually impossible to test for. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 6:58 AM
iloveequine40 - 2017-01-17 5:48 AM Bear - 2017-01-16 9:10 PM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-16 8:22 PM I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title. I think Bear has suspicions.... Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests. I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him. I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed You are right. There has to be specific testing for it. Supposedly, until 2012 there was no test to detect Frog Juice. That's what I read too. So random drug testing at rodeos or futurity would most likely not be testing for frog juice bc it's "effect" goes against the idea of what most barrel racers desire in their horse. We had a horse run in DFC futurity trials at Lonestar. He won his trial and as soon as winner circle pic was taken he was escorted immediately and with security to the testing barn. I couldn't even go to the backstretch to see him until he was finished. When I went to pick him up during the Texas Classic Futurity weekend my truck/trailer had to be clear of everything. They searched going in and out. Even made me take off my boots. The race horse industry is leaps and bounds ahead of other industry in regulating. With all these big races futurity, American the spotlight is being turned on and it won't be long before treatment/drug use comes front and center.
Yes, at most tracks the winner is tested and at out TB track one random is pulled from each race.
I agree that gambling is part of the equation that constitutes the necessity for testing in the race industry. Having said that with if their is a concern of the overall welfare of the animal by organizations advocating for these events then why not regulate a little more? These events are growing and more eyes are looking. All it takes is a few bad apples and ruins the image for all. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| iloveequine40 - 2017-01-17 8:22 AM
Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 6:58 AM
iloveequine40 - 2017-01-17 5:48 AM Bear - 2017-01-16 9:10 PM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-16 8:22 PM I manage racehorse farm. Never heard of it. I honestly thought this was a spam thread based on title. I think Bear has suspicions.... Even if they do random drug test at some rodeos it was my understanding that they have to test specifically for it??? If the mindset is "we want our barrel horses calm" I bet they aren't looking for it in those tests. I'm going to pick my vets brain about it next time I go see him. I cannot imagine giving my horse this! This is insane. I've ALWAYS maintained that it is the integrity of the horse that is ultimately being destroyed by human greed You are right. There has to be specific testing for it. Supposedly, until 2012 there was no test to detect Frog Juice. That's what I read too. So random drug testing at rodeos or futurity would most likely not be testing for frog juice bc it's "effect" goes against the idea of what most barrel racers desire in their horse. We had a horse run in DFC futurity trials at Lonestar. He won his trial and as soon as winner circle pic was taken he was escorted immediately and with security to the testing barn. I couldn't even go to the backstretch to see him until he was finished. When I went to pick him up during the Texas Classic Futurity weekend my truck/trailer had to be clear of everything. They searched going in and out. Even made me take off my boots. The race horse industry is leaps and bounds ahead of other industry in regulating. With all these big races futurity, American the spotlight is being turned on and it won't be long before treatment/drug use comes front and center.
Yes, at most tracks the winner is tested and at out TB track one random is pulled from each race.
I agree that gambling is part of the equation that constitutes the necessity for testing in the race industry. Having said that with if their is a concern of the overall welfare of the animal by organizations advocating for these events then why not regulate a little more? These events are growing and more eyes are looking. All it takes is a few bad apples and ruins the image for all.
One thing ppl forget is that horses are property and you can do with your property as you wish. I'm not condoning anything but the fact is the public has no clue what actually happens to these horses and most fade from the spot light suddenly due to injury or sudden death and no one is the wiser.
This is America you can do with your property as you please and you can do with your animals as you please as long as it doesn't violate animal welfare laws. These horses are extremely well cared for immaculate diets, amazing muscle tone, and they look like a million bucks. Is it morally wrong? Yes, IMO. Does it violate any laws? As far as I'm concerned if you have the balls to juice your barrel horse with Frog Juice more power to you, your far braver than I. I've been on the back side and seen those juiced that flip and flail around without knowing where or even what theirs legs are for. I can't imagine any barrel racer using actual frog juice maybe a diluted version?
Ventipulmin, Winstrol, and Dex are pretty common and probably widely abused but they do not have any of the same effects as Frog Juice, Pig Juice, or other "track helpers." Plus fluids usually need to be jugged to them directly after to ensure no colic or tying up issues. It even takes track horses awhile to recover from a cycle of Frog Juice. Most barrel racers do not prep for a single race like the track does. I just don't see Frog Juice being used by any barrel racer, at least not to the strength it is on the track.
Worry about the people doing show blocks because there are some people out there blocking all 4 legs along with a few vets who go to all the big shows happy to stick in a needle. I'm all for getting one out of pain but at what point do you stop to question their ability to walk around the pasture once retired? But like I said horses are property plain and simple. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | mreklaw - 2017-01-17 4:48 AM
Bear - 2017-01-16 9:55 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 9:26 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 9:15 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM
Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM
IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM
mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL
Ignorance is bliss.
That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent?
Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear.
My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win...
What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high?
Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win.
So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse?
Is that what you are saying?
Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect?
I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet.
What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin.
I didn't give anyone any evil ideas.
Yes they could but only if they had knowledge of it to begin with. If you only enlightened one person that's one too many.
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you've been saying.
If someone is so dumb as to conclude that using Frog Juice sounds like a swell idea after reading this thread, at least we can take some consolation in knowing that their chances of contributing to the gene pool is marginal.
Well I won't insult your intelligence because you obviously don't get my point. That kind of person that would try this cares nothing about their animal. They just want to win at any cost.Hey call me sometime and I will give you a list of other drugs I have heard of people using. The list is long unfortunately. You can't change it by talking about it either. That kind of person will always exist so obviously they are contributing to the gene pool.
On the basic premise put forth on this thread we are all in agreement.....use of certain drugs is cheating. We all also agree that these drugs also have another thing in common in that they endanger the health and well being of horses. These things are not debatable.
Where you and I differ is you think my having the audacity of brining it up and going into specific details somehow will give people so inclined to win at all costs new ideas. I submit that those people have already given serious consideration to using these sorts of drugs, and, most likely have explored those options, at the very least. To some, my showing how these drugs are definitely available is eye opening, if not shocking. The more this is talked about is a good thing, in my opinion, and in opening up this discussion, the good far outweighs the bad.
To me, as an outsider looking in, I have had the feeling that discussions like this are taboo. Those who think it is taboo are just laying back waiting for an opportunity to shoot the messenger. They are looking for a misstatement so they can take the conversation in a different direction. It's analogous to the rumors surrounding the sweet, loving Father John and his close relationships to alter boys. For years these rumors are taboo.......until someone spills the beans, and then the floodgates open. Fast forward a few years, and Father John is behind bars after dozens of former altar boys come forth with the graphic details.......leaving the parishioners stunned and wondering why someone didn't say something sooner. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | Bear - 2017-01-16 8:13 PM casualdust07 - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM In my veterinary infancy... we aren't taught any of the bad stuff...but I know the older guys know what illegal stuff is out there and what people do because I've definitely gotten the vibe that barrel racers are known for hopping their horses. I was basically told I would get a rude awakening of what people are going to ask me to do in a few short months that I have no idea about.. I'll try and keep my jaw from hitting the floor LOL. I was hoping you would chime in, doc.
She'll have lots to chime in about shortly.
Bear, I left the race track two decades ago, started to train my own barrel horses and only my own due to what I was asked to do by a barrel horse owner.
Like Kathie said earlier, most of the time I'm trying to keep their little brains and long legs under control. I will use "stuff" when I'm training to keep me and the horse safe but I would hope that by the time training is done I have a colt that can handle the pressure of futurities.
If your looking for frog use in humans just give our ME a call here in San Antonio our local west side supplier likes it hot.
CD, can I knit you a jaw holder? |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-17 8:40 AM mreklaw - 2017-01-17 4:48 AM Bear - 2017-01-16 9:55 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 9:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 9:15 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 8:16 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 7:43 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 2:51 PM Bear - 2017-01-16 2:20 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-16 1:52 PM mreklaw - 2017-01-16 1:24 PM Why post this and give idiots ideas?
And hey, maybe the ones who do purchase will get caught and we can weed out our competition. LOL Ignorance is bliss. That's why I posted in the first place....to get an idea of how many people even know what it is, and whether they think the stuff is being used in barrel racing. It's talked about. Rumors are not new. If the stuff is readily available, and it has these desirable effects, and no effort is being made to test for them or ferret the cheaters out, are we supposed to just convince ourselves that people who barrel race are all honest and good and decent? Practically everyone knew about the Mafia by the time the FBI was forced into recognizing they actually existed, some 60 years after their inception in the U.S. Even the FBI didn't want to deal with the truth.....partly out of fear. My point exactly. Thank you for the knowledge of knowing it exists. Now to Google I go to read up on this stuff. Scary world we live in. It seems people will do anything to win... What are the lasting effects on the horses that are exposed to this drug Bear? Are there any side effects when a horse is coming back down from the so called high? Ignorance is bliss for the horses that belong to the fools that are going to use this or whatever new drug that is being used to cheat. And just how are you people going to determine who's horse is in a state of "euphoria "? What symptoms are you now going to be able to pick up on since reading this? Yes there are plenty of people already doing this to their horses and now there will be more thanks to you posting it. I can just see their greedy little fingers typing in their search engine to find more info. There are a lot of naive people on here if you don't think some people are doing everything possible to win. So let me get this straight. You are saying that by shedding some light on cheating by doping, I am making the problem worse? Is that what you are saying? Do you agree that it is a problem? If so, then do you think the solution is benign neglect? I agree it's a problem. Not just with this drug but many. But putting all the details out there is not right. No matter what you shed "light" on its not going to change the people with no morals or conscience. But maybe create a new monster that hasn't heard of it yet. What "details"? You make it sound like I revealed some sophisticated secret. A moron can google Frog Juice or Dermorphin. I didn't give anyone any evil ideas. Yes they could but only if they had knowledge of it to begin with. If you only enlightened one person that's one too many. I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you've been saying. If someone is so dumb as to conclude that using Frog Juice sounds like a swell idea after reading this thread, at least we can take some consolation in knowing that their chances of contributing to the gene pool is marginal. Well I won't insult your intelligence because you obviously don't get my point. That kind of person that would try this cares nothing about their animal. They just want to win at any cost.Hey call me sometime and I will give you a list of other drugs I have heard of people using. The list is long unfortunately. You can't change it by talking about it either. That kind of person will always exist so obviously they are contributing to the gene pool. On the basic premise put forth on this thread we are all in agreement.....use of certain drugs is cheating. We all also agree that these drugs also have another thing in common in that they endanger the health and well being of horses. These things are not debatable. Where you and I differ is you think my having the audacity of brining it up and going into specific details somehow will give people so inclined to win at all costs new ideas. I submit that those people have already given serious consideration to using these sorts of drugs, and, most likely have explored those options, at the very least. To some, my showing how these drugs are definitely available is eye opening, if not shocking. The more this is talked about is a good thing, in my opinion, and in opening up this discussion, the good far outweighs the bad. To me, as an outsider looking in, I have had the feeling that discussions like this are taboo. Those who think it is taboo are just laying back waiting for an opportunity to shoot the messenger. They are looking for a misstatement so they can take the conversation in a different direction. It's analogous to the rumors surrounding the sweet, loving Father John and his close relationships to alter boys. For years these rumors are taboo.......until someone spills the beans, and then the floodgates open. Fast forward a few years, and Father John is behind bars after dozens of former altar boys come forth with the graphic details.......leaving the parishioners stunned and wondering why someone didn't say something sooner.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | uno-dos-tres! - 2017-01-17 8:40 AM
Bear - 2017-01-16 8:13 PM casualdust07 - 2017-01-16 8:11 PM In my veterinary infancy... we aren't taught any of the bad stuff...but I know the older guys know what illegal stuff is out there and what people do because I've definitely gotten the vibe that barrel racers are known for hopping their horses. I was basically told I would get a rude awakening of what people are going to ask me to do in a few short months that I have no idea about.. I'll try and keep my jaw from hitting the floor LOL. I was hoping you would chime in, doc.
Bear, I left the race track two decades ago, started to train my own barrel horses and only my own due to what I was asked to do by a barrel horse owner.
Like Kathie said earlier, most of the time I'm trying to keep their little brains and long legs under control. I will use "stuff" when I'm training to keep me and the horse safe but I would hope that by the time training is done I have a colt that can handle the pressure of futurities.
If your looking for frog use in humans just give our ME a call here in San Antonio our local west side supplier likes it hot.
CD, can I knit you a jaw holder?
What do you mean by "ME"? Medical examiner? I'm not following.
By "frog use in humans" are you talking about the frogs that secrete hallucinogens on their skin? Frog licking? Krocodil? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 878
Location: "...way down south in the Everglades..." | I think it's an interesting topic Bear brought up. What blows my mind is that some of those in these conversations seemed shocked that someone in the barrel racing world would use Frog Juice (or any other performance enhancement drug)...why is that shocking? People find ways to cheat in every single discipline, sport, contest, etc.
IMO, while the financial gains are stronger indicators as to the higher probability of cheating, even small backyard stuff has people doing stupid and unethical things to win. Sadly, with the drugs, some of these people literally have the mind set that if you don't dope 'em with something then it's impossible to win.
Frog juice I certainly heard of on the track. I haven't actually heard anyone discuss it in barrel racing, but if I did, it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I just know there is an awful lot of needles/syringes at big events and I don't think they are all just lasix...
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2017-01-17 9:19 AM I think it's an interesting topic Bear brought up. What blows my mind is that some of those in these conversations seemed shocked that someone in the barrel racing world would use Frog Juice (or any other performance enhancement drug)...why is that shocking? People find ways to cheat in every single discipline, sport, contest, etc.
IMO, while the financial gains are stronger indicators as to the higher probability of cheating, even small backyard stuff has people doing stupid and unethical things to win. Sadly, with the drugs, some of these people literally have the mind set that if you don't dope 'em with something then it's impossible to win.
Frog juice I certainly heard of on the track. I haven't actually heard anyone discuss it in barrel racing, but if I did, it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I just know there is an awful lot of needles/syringes at big events and I don't think they are all just lasix...
Good point... Unfortuneately... |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 10:30 AM Speedy Buckeye Girl - 2017-01-17 9:19 AM I think it's an interesting topic Bear brought up. What blows my mind is that some of those in these conversations seemed shocked that someone in the barrel racing world would use Frog Juice (or any other performance enhancement drug)...why is that shocking? People find ways to cheat in every single discipline, sport, contest, etc.
IMO, while the financial gains are stronger indicators as to the higher probability of cheating, even small backyard stuff has people doing stupid and unethical things to win. Sadly, with the drugs, some of these people literally have the mind set that if you don't dope 'em with something then it's impossible to win.
Frog juice I certainly heard of on the track. I haven't actually heard anyone discuss it in barrel racing, but if I did, it certainly wouldn't surprise me. I just know there is an awful lot of needles/syringes at big events and I don't think they are all just lasix...
Good point... Unfortuneately...
Why do you think places like Ft Smith have boxes for sharps?
And, it isn't just the barrel people who use them. Other equine discplines do to. |
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 Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | First, kudos to you Bear for bringing this topic to light, again. Perhaps more people will be aware of it, and not suffer from it with the knowing: when purchasing a whiz bang winner, when competing, when owning and caring for any horse.
As a Horse Show Manager, I can tell you that drug testing is VERY expensive for any producer and is a crap shoot. When ordering a drug test, there are SO many hoops to jump through and again, the expense is prohibitive. Standard practice at AQHA and USEF shows, and I am sure many other breed associations, but for the normal open show or barrel producer - the cost and intricacies of arranging for it are enormous. The organizations that demand it will require a drug fee from each horse to help defray the costs, and they will arrange for a random drug tester (vet/lab) to go to selected horse shows and randomly select horses to be tested, and then only for the specified (and very specific) drugs.
My point is, that for the average show/barrel race producer, the cost is not realistic unless you pass the cost on to the exhibitor - and we all know how exhibitors feel about extra fees. The logistics of equine drug testing at an event are mind boggling, so owners/riders/trainers better be aware of what goes on and decide if they want to be party to it or not and self-adjudicate within your industry/event/activity.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
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Location: Bastrop, Texas | smmthbr - 2017-01-17 9:46 AM
First, kudos to you Bear for bringing this topic to light, again. Perhaps more people will be aware of it, and not suffer from it with the knowing: when purchasing a whiz bang winner, when competing, when owning and caring for any horse.
As a Horse Show Manager, I can tell you that drug testing is VERY expensive for any producer and is a crap shoot. When ordering a drug test, there are SO many hoops to jump through and again, the expense is prohibitive. Standard practice at AQHA and USEF shows, and I am sure many other breed associations, but for the normal open show or barrel producer - the cost and intricacies of arranging for it are enormous. The organizations that demand it will require a drug fee from each horse to help defray the costs, and they will arrange for a random drug tester (vet/lab) to go to selected horse shows and randomly select horses to be tested, and then only for the specified (and very specific) drugs.
My point is, that for the average show/barrel race producer, the cost is not realistic unless you pass the cost on to the exhibitor - and we all know how exhibitors feel about extra fees. The logistics of equine drug testing at an event are mind boggling, so owners/riders/trainers better be aware of what goes on and decide if they want to be party to it or not and self-adjudicate within your industry/event/activity.
Honest question here. Let's begin with a premise that the goal is to make drug testing an effective deterrent. Let's say you want to set up a protocol for drug testing, and you are expecting 300-500 entries. How would you do it? |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Bear - 2017-01-17 10:56 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 9:46 AM First, kudos to you Bear for bringing this topic to light, again. Perhaps more people will be aware of it, and not suffer from it with the knowing: when purchasing a whiz bang winner, when competing, when owning and caring for any horse.
As a Horse Show Manager, I can tell you that drug testing is VERY expensive for any producer and is a crap shoot. When ordering a drug test, there are SO many hoops to jump through and again, the expense is prohibitive. Standard practice at AQHA and USEF shows, and I am sure many other breed associations, but for the normal open show or barrel producer - the cost and intricacies of arranging for it are enormous. The organizations that demand it will require a drug fee from each horse to help defray the costs, and they will arrange for a random drug tester (vet/lab) to go to selected horse shows and randomly select horses to be tested, and then only for the specified (and very specific) drugs.
My point is, that for the average show/barrel race producer, the cost is not realistic unless you pass the cost on to the exhibitor - and we all know how exhibitors feel about extra fees. The logistics of equine drug testing at an event are mind boggling, so owners/riders/trainers better be aware of what goes on and decide if they want to be party to it or not and self-adjudicate within your industry/event/activity.
Honest question here. Let's begin with a premise that the goal is to make drug testing an effective deterrent. Let's say you want to set up a protocol for drug testing, and you are expecting 300-500 entries. How would you do it?
IMO---can't be done. Say you want to do the winner and a random here and there. How would you do that ?? Many times the person who won has already left. It is not like in racing where the winner is known within minutes and they take them directly to the test barn. Even in rodeo it would be tough---when you do not know the actual winner for several night unless they would test the winner from each performance. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 10:07 AM
Bear - 2017-01-17 10:56 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 9:46 AM First, kudos to you Bear for bringing this topic to light, again. Perhaps more people will be aware of it, and not suffer from it with the knowing: when purchasing a whiz bang winner, when competing, when owning and caring for any horse.
As a Horse Show Manager, I can tell you that drug testing is VERY expensive for any producer and is a crap shoot. When ordering a drug test, there are SO many hoops to jump through and again, the expense is prohibitive. Standard practice at AQHA and USEF shows, and I am sure many other breed associations, but for the normal open show or barrel producer - the cost and intricacies of arranging for it are enormous. The organizations that demand it will require a drug fee from each horse to help defray the costs, and they will arrange for a random drug tester (vet/lab) to go to selected horse shows and randomly select horses to be tested, and then only for the specified (and very specific) drugs.
My point is, that for the average show/barrel race producer, the cost is not realistic unless you pass the cost on to the exhibitor - and we all know how exhibitors feel about extra fees. The logistics of equine drug testing at an event are mind boggling, so owners/riders/trainers better be aware of what goes on and decide if they want to be party to it or not and self-adjudicate within your industry/event/activity.
Honest question here. Let's begin with a premise that the goal is to make drug testing an effective deterrent. Let's say you want to set up a protocol for drug testing, and you are expecting 300-500 entries. How would you do it?
Well, good point, but then there are some events and even rodeos that do random testing, correct? How do they do it? What is their cost? |
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Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | Assuming I was a "private" producer (i.e. not AQHA/USEF, etc)., I would research a lab that does equine drug testing and determine the most effective and affordable. Then decide what on their list I could/wanted to have tested for and select the "families" of said drugs and how many "tests" you want done/how many samples you want taken. Then hire a vet or acceptable vet tech to come and pull blood or collect urine samples. Formulate protocol on how, via an unbiased individual, the selection for who to test was going to be made and the follow up of collecting the sample, getting it to the lab, etc. Of course, this is it in a nutshell and there are many other steps to be taken. However, I have found that some state governments have rules in place to assist with/mandate equine event drug testing and if in one of those states, I assume it would be much easier. For example, here in Oklahoma, the state vets will get involved with racetrack drug testing, but there aren't any other provisions for other breeds/equine activities that I am aware of.
Nothing can be done quickly or last minute...takes many hours of research, decision making and planning, and again, many $$. It's a conundrum - |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | smmthbr - 2017-01-17 10:24 AM
Assuming I was a "private" producer (i.e. not AQHA/USEF, etc)., I would research a lab that does equine drug testing and determine the most effective and affordable. Then decide what on their list I could/wanted to have tested for and select the "families" of said drugs and how many "tests" you want done/how many samples you want taken. Then hire a vet or acceptable vet tech to come and pull blood or collect urine samples. Formulate protocol on how, via an unbiased individual, the selection for who to test was going to be made and the follow up of collecting the sample, getting it to the lab, etc. Of course, this is it in a nutshell and there are many other steps to be taken. However, I have found that some state governments have rules in place to assist with/mandate equine event drug testing and if in one of those states, I assume it would be much easier. For example, here in Oklahoma, the state vets will get involved with racetrack drug testing, but there aren't any other provisions for other breeds/equine activities that I am aware of.
Nothing can be done quickly or last minute...takes many hours of research, decision making and planning, and again, many $$. It's a conundrum -
Thanks. I know that random testing (urine screens) in humans used to be much more expensive, but has become a lot cheaper. I would think policy of testing even say the top 3 in each "D" would be a decent deterrent. It satisfies two desirable goals....randomness, and testing of the top winners. I would think that for bigger jackpots, the cost of 12 random tests would not be prohibitive.
Human urine drug screens are cheap, like $25 per test. I'm not sure about serum testing for drugs in people...maybe $75? Just a guess. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Bear - 2017-01-17 11:40 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 10:24 AM Assuming I was a "private" producer (i.e. not AQHA/USEF, etc)., I would research a lab that does equine drug testing and determine the most effective and affordable. Then decide what on their list I could/wanted to have tested for and select the "families" of said drugs and how many "tests" you want done/how many samples you want taken. Then hire a vet or acceptable vet tech to come and pull blood or collect urine samples. Formulate protocol on how, via an unbiased individual, the selection for who to test was going to be made and the follow up of collecting the sample, getting it to the lab, etc. Of course, this is it in a nutshell and there are many other steps to be taken. However, I have found that some state governments have rules in place to assist with/mandate equine event drug testing and if in one of those states, I assume it would be much easier. For example, here in Oklahoma, the state vets will get involved with racetrack drug testing, but there aren't any other provisions for other breeds/equine activities that I am aware of. Nothing can be done quickly or last minute...takes many hours of research, decision making and planning, and again, many $$. It's a conundrum - Thanks. I know that random testing (urine screens ) in humans used to be much more expensive, but has become a lot cheaper. I would think policy of testing even say the top 3 in each "D" would be a decent deterrent. It satisfies two desirable goals....randomness, and testing of the top winners. I would think that for bigger jackpots, the cost of 12 random tests would not be prohibitive. Human urine drug screens are cheap, like $25 per test. I'm not sure about serum testing for drugs in people...maybe $75? Just a guess.
Then we run into the timing issue again---say there is 500 horses and you run 50 an hour. First horses to run if they hit will not be tested till 8 hours, at least later. In horse racing certain things are allowed but the quantity in the system has to be under certain levels---these levels could drastically change in 8 hours or would there be a zero tolerance policy ????? Ace, Banamine, Clenbutoral, as stated Frog Juice. Where do we draw the line on what is "performance enhancing" and what isn't ??? |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Bear - 2017-01-17 10:40 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 10:24 AM Assuming I was a "private" producer (i.e. not AQHA/USEF, etc)., I would research a lab that does equine drug testing and determine the most effective and affordable. Then decide what on their list I could/wanted to have tested for and select the "families" of said drugs and how many "tests" you want done/how many samples you want taken. Then hire a vet or acceptable vet tech to come and pull blood or collect urine samples. Formulate protocol on how, via an unbiased individual, the selection for who to test was going to be made and the follow up of collecting the sample, getting it to the lab, etc. Of course, this is it in a nutshell and there are many other steps to be taken. However, I have found that some state governments have rules in place to assist with/mandate equine event drug testing and if in one of those states, I assume it would be much easier. For example, here in Oklahoma, the state vets will get involved with racetrack drug testing, but there aren't any other provisions for other breeds/equine activities that I am aware of. Nothing can be done quickly or last minute...takes many hours of research, decision making and planning, and again, many $$. It's a conundrum - Thanks. I know that random testing (urine screens ) in humans used to be much more expensive, but has become a lot cheaper. I would think policy of testing even say the top 3 in each "D" would be a decent deterrent. It satisfies two desirable goals....randomness, and testing of the top winners. I would think that for bigger jackpots, the cost of 12 random tests would not be prohibitive. Human urine drug screens are cheap, like $25 per test. I'm not sure about serum testing for drugs in people...maybe $75? Just a guess.
At rodeos I have seen where they draw a chip right after their run, get the right color and you get tested. For D races though, like someone already said, for races that are multi day, you won't know who placed and they may already be gone or testing is done 2/3 days after the run. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 10:47 AM
Bear - 2017-01-17 11:40 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 10:24 AM Assuming I was a "private" producer (i.e. not AQHA/USEF, etc)., I would research a lab that does equine drug testing and determine the most effective and affordable. Then decide what on their list I could/wanted to have tested for and select the "families" of said drugs and how many "tests" you want done/how many samples you want taken. Then hire a vet or acceptable vet tech to come and pull blood or collect urine samples. Formulate protocol on how, via an unbiased individual, the selection for who to test was going to be made and the follow up of collecting the sample, getting it to the lab, etc. Of course, this is it in a nutshell and there are many other steps to be taken. However, I have found that some state governments have rules in place to assist with/mandate equine event drug testing and if in one of those states, I assume it would be much easier. For example, here in Oklahoma, the state vets will get involved with racetrack drug testing, but there aren't any other provisions for other breeds/equine activities that I am aware of. Nothing can be done quickly or last minute...takes many hours of research, decision making and planning, and again, many $$. It's a conundrum - Thanks. I know that random testing (urine screens ) in humans used to be much more expensive, but has become a lot cheaper. I would think policy of testing even say the top 3 in each "D" would be a decent deterrent. It satisfies two desirable goals....randomness, and testing of the top winners. I would think that for bigger jackpots, the cost of 12 random tests would not be prohibitive. Human urine drug screens are cheap, like $25 per test. I'm not sure about serum testing for drugs in people...maybe $75? Just a guess.
Well, that needs to be determined ahead of time. Some horses need bronchodilators, or LASIK, and I don't think many would object to the use of NSAIDS. Point being, a consensus needs to be reached and a line drawn. Nobody will argue the illegality of anabolic steroids, amphetamines, or Frog Juice. |
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 Thick and Wavy
Posts: 6102
Location: Nebraska | I feel like we've already had this discussion on here. I think there was a big discussion when we had that one about snake venom being used. It's been a few years. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | brlracerchick - 2017-01-17 11:57 AM I feel like we've already had this discussion on here. I think there was a big discussion when we had that one about snake venom being used. It's been a few years.
YEP |
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Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | I have seen some events where they just announce, randomly, the "x place" horse in this class will be met at the gate by the drug testers and will be tested....". I don't see why a random draw couldn't be pulled during each session of a barrel race and when a horse was about to enter the arena, announce, something to the effect: "A random drug selection was made and the horse competing at this time will be drug tested." (etc to make sure there were no aspersions cast on that particular horse/rider/trainer/owner.) Then a drug tester would meet the horse at the gate upon exit and stay with them until the time that horse could be taken to a stall reserved for drug testing, whether to collect urine or a blood sample. All exhibitors would have to sign a document upon entry that they were aware that a random selection for drug testing was going to be made and their horse(s) were automatically subject to and they were willing to participate. Most associations that require drug testing will not allow ANY argument, you go with drug tester and cooperate or you don't show/don't get an award, etc etc. I've seen shows where horses all of a sudden disappear when the drug testers show up.....:-) Random, last minute announced testing may be more effective than selection by specified winners. If EVERYONE entering knew there was a chance their horse was going to be selected for drug testing, regardless of the time they ran or how they were going to place, they might be less inclined to have their horse injected. It also would void the possibility of the argument that so and so big time often winner's horse was drugged by a jealous competitor to make sure their placing was null and void. It often takes a long time for the results to come back, so if a show pays "on the spot", you'd have to pay regardless of the test results and you'd have to include ramifications on if a horse tested positive, what the consequences were going to be.
Edited by smmthbr 2017-01-17 11:06 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | brlracerchick - 2017-01-17 10:57 AM I feel like we've already had this discussion on here. I think there was a big discussion when we had that one about snake venom being used. It's been a few years.
I missed that one... |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Honest question: If you bump the price of each entry up by say $5 and have 500 entries could you test without much cost to the producer? 
Then again you have the who to test and how.... |
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Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 11:07 AM Honest question: If you bump the price of each entry up by say $5 and have 500 entries could you test without much cost to the producer?
Then again you have the who to test and how....
Depends on how many you want tested....I was trying to get an event tested that I manage (not barrel race) and the cost was going to be between $800.00 and $1000.00 per entry (including the cost of the drug tester/collector, lab work, shipping, etc., and that wasn't even for any of the designer drugs. I haven't done any more investigation in the last year or so, perhaps the cost has gone down some..... |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | smmthbr - 2017-01-17 12:04 PM I have seen some events where they just announce, randomly, the "x place" horse in this class will be met at the gate by the drug testers and will be tested....". I don't see why a random draw couldn't be pulled during each session of a barrel race and when a horse was about to enter the arena, announce, something to the effect: "A random drug selection was made and the horse competing at this time will be drug tested." (etc to make sure there were no aspersions cast on that particular horse/rider/trainer/owner.) Then a drug tester would meet the horse at the gate upon exit and stay with them until the time that horse could be taken to a stall reserved for drug testing, whether to collect urine or a blood sample. All exhibitors would have to sign a document upon entry that they were aware that a random selection for drug testing was going to be made and their horse(s) were automatically subject to and they were willing to participate. Most associations that require drug testing will not allow ANY argument, you go with drug tester and cooperate or you don't show/don't get an award, etc etc. I've seen shows where horses all of a sudden disappear when the drug testers show up.....:-) Random, last minute announced testing may be more effective than selection by specified winners. If EVERYONE entering knew there was a chance their horse was going to be selected for drug testing, regardless of the time they ran or how they were going to place, they might be less inclined to have their horse injected. It also would void the possibility of the argument that so and so big time often winner's horse was drugged by a jealous competitor to make sure their placing was null and void. It often takes a long time for the results to come back, so if a show pays "on the spot", you'd have to pay regardless of the test results and you'd have to include ramifications on if a horse tested positive, what the consequences were going to be.
Yeah--I think that could work. Completely random, not decided by who wins money. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | smmthbr - 2017-01-17 12:04 PM
I have seen some events where they just announce, randomly, the "x place" horse in this class will be met at the gate by the drug testers and will be tested....". I don't see why a random draw couldn't be pulled during each session of a barrel race and when a horse was about to enter the arena, announce, something to the effect: "A random drug selection was made and the horse competing at this time will be drug tested." (etc to make sure there were no aspersions cast on that particular horse/rider/trainer/owner.) Then a drug tester would meet the horse at the gate upon exit and stay with them until the time that horse could be taken to a stall reserved for drug testing, whether to collect urine or a blood sample. All exhibitors would have to sign a document upon entry that they were aware that a random selection for drug testing was going to be made and their horse(s) were automatically subject to and they were willing to participate. Most associations that require drug testing will not allow ANY argument, you go with drug tester and cooperate or you don't show/don't get an award, etc etc. I've seen shows where horses all of a sudden disappear when the drug testers show up.....:-) Random, last minute announced testing may be more effective than selection by specified winners. If EVERYONE entering knew there was a chance their horse was going to be selected for drug testing, regardless of the time they ran or how they were going to place, they might be less inclined to have their horse injected. It also would void the possibility of the argument that so and so big time often winner's horse was drugged by a jealous competitor to make sure their placing was null and void. It often takes a long time for the results to come back, so if a show pays "on the spot", you'd have to pay regardless of the test results and you'd have to include ramifications on if a horse tested positive, what the consequences were going to be.
I can see you put some thought into this, but a complete random at a Barrel Race would be an almost complete waste of time and resources.
a vast majority of BR's are going to be clean, and with the threat of testing even more will be clean. The ones that are going to cheat are the ones that have the most to gain, those alpha dogs are probably still going to risk it knowing that the chance of them being pulled in a random out of a big sample size is very small.
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Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | 1DSoon - 2017-01-17 11:16 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 12:04 PM I have seen some events where they just announce, randomly, the "x place" horse in this class will be met at the gate by the drug testers and will be tested....". I don't see why a random draw couldn't be pulled during each session of a barrel race and when a horse was about to enter the arena, announce, something to the effect: "A random drug selection was made and the horse competing at this time will be drug tested." (etc to make sure there were no aspersions cast on that particular horse/rider/trainer/owner.) Then a drug tester would meet the horse at the gate upon exit and stay with them until the time that horse could be taken to a stall reserved for drug testing, whether to collect urine or a blood sample. All exhibitors would have to sign a document upon entry that they were aware that a random selection for drug testing was going to be made and their horse(s) were automatically subject to and they were willing to participate. Most associations that require drug testing will not allow ANY argument, you go with drug tester and cooperate or you don't show/don't get an award, etc etc. I've seen shows where horses all of a sudden disappear when the drug testers show up.....:-) Random, last minute announced testing may be more effective than selection by specified winners. If EVERYONE entering knew there was a chance their horse was going to be selected for drug testing, regardless of the time they ran or how they were going to place, they might be less inclined to have their horse injected. It also would void the possibility of the argument that so and so big time often winner's horse was drugged by a jealous competitor to make sure their placing was null and void. It often takes a long time for the results to come back, so if a show pays "on the spot", you'd have to pay regardless of the test results and you'd have to include ramifications on if a horse tested positive, what the consequences were going to be. I can see you put some thought into this, but a complete random at a Barrel Race would be an almost complete waste of time and resources. a vast majority of BR's are going to be clean, and with the threat of testing even more will be clean. The ones that are going to cheat are the ones that have the most to gain, those alpha dogs are probably still going to risk it knowing that the chance of them being pulled in a random out of a big sample size is very small.
But isn't the fact "with the threat of testing even more will be clean" is the goal? Like I said, it's a crap shoot...but a possible deterrent. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | smmthbr - 2017-01-17 11:11 AM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 11:07 AM Honest question: If you bump the price of each entry up by say $5 and have 500 entries could you test without much cost to the producer?
Then again you have the who to test and how....
Wow. So just to test would be 8 to 1k out of the gate per entry and then all the added costs?
That is nuts.... |
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Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 11:25 AM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 11:11 AM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 11:07 AM Honest question: If you bump the price of each entry up by say $5 and have 500 entries could you test without much cost to the producer?
Then again you have the who to test and how....
That is nuts....
I'm sorry, I meant per sample, not necessarily per entry. And that estimate included most of the associated costs....
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut.
If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught.
It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things.
We'll have to see what happens.
Edited by Bear 2017-01-17 12:05 PM
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM
I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut.
If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught.
It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things.
We'll have to see what happens.
Unfortunately nothing will happen. There will always b a new drug that there is no test for yet. Producers won't pay for testing and contestants won't want to either. There will always be greedy people looking for a shortcut. My Ex once said the best race horse trainers have the best chemists. It's ugly but the truth. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I don't see how they can cost that much. Even here in WY they do random drug tests at every AQHA show. There may be only be 100 horses. We are charged $5 per day per judge per horse. So for a 3 day double judged show I only pay $60.
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2017-01-17 12:14 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2531
Location: WI | Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own!
Edited by linds 2017-01-17 1:27 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM
Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own!
I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of
administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer.
Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel.
If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years. |
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Expert
Posts: 2531
Location: WI | Bear - 2017-01-17 2:13 PM linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own! I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer. Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years.
I guess my point is I don't think a producer exists that wants to take this on. Logistical nightmare.
Maybe Bear should start a regulatory committee to write all the rules, gather the costs. Start approaching producers and sell your policies. Here is the WPRA model you can start from. There are a lot of forms! http://www.wpra.com/index.php/office/equine-medications-prohibited-substances |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bear - 2017-01-17 3:13 PM linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own! I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer. Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years.
who outran you that you suspect is doping?
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 488
Location: torrington, wy | Have you ever seen anyone tested at the shows in WY? The deal in drug testing is what you are testing for. The more you want the test to show the more it cost. Just because you are charged a drug testing fee, does not mean that testing will be done. When the WPRA did test years ago they would get a urine sample and alot of the times it never got tested more a scare tactic. At the race track the winner is always tested plus a random, if you claim your running on something it better show up in the test. Frog juice test took awhile to get done. Now that there is a test to show for it. The race track test show more than most. You have to understand you need a vet on grounds to collect the sample and then he sends to the lab for the results. So you the show manager must hire a Vet for this purpose only. What does a Vet charge for a full days service ? It all adds up fast.
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | tebar - 2017-01-17 1:42 PM Have you ever seen anyone tested at the shows in WY? The deal in drug testing is what you are testing for. The more you want the test to show the more it cost. Just because you are charged a drug testing fee, does not mean that testing will be done. When the WPRA did test years ago they would get a urine sample and alot of the times it never got tested more a scare tactic. At the race track the winner is always tested plus a random, if you claim your running on something it better show up in the test. Frog juice test took awhile to get done. Now that there is a test to show for it. The race track test show more than most. You have to understand you need a vet on grounds to collect the sample and then he sends to the lab for the results. So you the show manager must hire a Vet for this purpose only. What does a Vet charge for a full days service ? It all adds up fast.
Yes I have. One of my friends was tested twice in one year, another girl I know was also tested at one show. These are close personal friends, not just hear say. They are there walking around the barns randomly. They leave a note on your stall if you are not there at the moment to come find them so they can do the drug test. |
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Expert
Posts: 4766
Location: Bandera, TX | I think the testing has caused a drop in the #'s at breed shows. I would hate to be Betty barrel producer and keep everything straight holding $ till the results are approved from the testing agency before I can payout.
Do we need testing, YES. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | 1DSoon - 2017-01-17 2:36 PM
Bear - 2017-01-17 3:13 PM linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own! I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer. Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years.
LOL......that doesn't narrow it down very much! They didn't need Frog Juice to beat me. |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | linds - 2017-01-17 2:24 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 2:13 PM linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own! I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer. Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years.
Maybe Bear should start a regulatory committee to write all the rules, gather the costs. Start approaching producers and sell your policies. Here is the WPRA model you can start from. There are a lot of forms! http://www.wpra.com/index.php/office/equine-medications-prohibited-substances
I agree that logistically random testing is the only workable possibility. To guarantee clean tests every horse would have to be quarantined from the time they run until the time the test is obtained. Pretty tuff to do if you are waiting for the results from a race that goes on 12 to 16 hours with the placing changing every few minutes. How many horses can reasonably held and which ones are you going to hold??
From years of being around tracks I can guarantee you that the real pros are always one step ahead of the testing process. They know exactly what substances the labs have the capability of testing for and their substance of choice will not be on the latest testing panels.
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | SC Wrangler - 2017-01-17 3:55 PM linds - 2017-01-17 2:24 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 2:13 PM linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own! I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer. Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years.
Maybe Bear should start a regulatory committee to write all the rules, gather the costs. Start approaching producers and sell your policies. Here is the WPRA model you can start from. There are a lot of forms! http://www.wpra.com/index.php/office/equine-medications-prohibited-substances
From years of being around tracks I can guarantee you that the real pros are always one step ahead of the testing process. They know exactly what substances the labs have the capability of testing for and their substance of choice will not be on the latest testing panels.
Cause that's not a scary statement at all....   |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | SC Wrangler - 2017-01-17 4:55 PM
linds - 2017-01-17 2:24 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 2:13 PM linds - 2017-01-17 1:26 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 12:01 PM I guess the idea would be to get a deterrent effect. We haven't talked about penalties or consequences. That would run the gamut. If even the top 2-3 in the 1D were to be automatically flagged for testing, I would think the toughest competitors would realize the risk and they'd have to decide whether it's worth it. Testing the top 2-3 in each D would automatically be random, because where you land is fairly random anyway. Winning the 3D just means you were lucky, even though you may have made a good run. That seems to be the simplest approach. You'll always have clever cheaters who will figure out a way to stay ahead with new cheating schemes, but that's nothing new. Lance Armstrong taught us that, for example. Eventually he was caught. It's good that this is talked about. I know I've learned a few things. We'll have to see what happens. I believe it would have to be random if it would work at all. If draw #1 wins the 3D - well, you don't know that until hours after they ran. Depending on the drug, it could be long gone. If it's a Sunday and I'm draw #1... I'm outta there by about draw #50. Then, there are the costs to have a vet on-site, running the test, etc. Holding up checks until tests clear.
AQHA and racing commissions regulate their testing. WPRA regulates theirs. There is no overseeing commission in the barrel racing world. NBHA maybe? All the offenders have to do is switch associations. Or, heck - start their own! I'm pretty sure all these drugs would be detectable within 24 hours of administration. Of course urine is better than blood for this, because a drug that may be quickly eliminated from the serum can linger in the urine for quite a bit longer. Again, I think the easy way to at least initially set things up would be to look at how organizations and rodeos set up their system. There's no need to re-invent the wheel. If the system is flawed to the extent that someone has already picked up a check, there's still value in drug testing. First, they can be banned. Second, word gets out. One could argue that is the most powerful deterrent. If "Jane Doe" has a dirty test, it's humiliating and even damaging. Even now certain competitors have a reputation for doping, regardless of the veracity, and that's based on rumor and heresay. I would think that would be harmful to any prospects of future business ventures. I know there are a couple out there from whom I wouldn't even consider buying any horse older than 3 years.
Maybe Bear should start a regulatory committee to write all the rules, gather the costs. Start approaching producers and sell your policies. Here is the WPRA model you can start from. There are a lot of forms! http://www.wpra.com/index.php/office/equine-medications-prohibited-substances
From years of being around tracks I can guarantee you that the real pros are always one step ahead of the testing process. They know exactly what substances the labs have the capability of testing for and their substance of choice will not be on the latest testing panels.
Plus, the really good cheaters will give something else that will mask and hide the illegal substance. |
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Dog Rescue Hero
Posts: 1660
Location: Oklahoma City OK | Sorry to keep barging in....it's my job to always be the devil's advocate and come up with the other side of the story. The producer mandating drug testing (rah rah!!) also better have a great legal team of lawyers standing behind him/her. Often times when a test comes back positive and the perpetrator is denied winnings, or their name sullied due to the test results being leaked without discretion, come back and sue to contest the decision. That's why the "chain of command" for any drug test has to be absolute and unquestionable - from the person greeting the horse at the gate, or wherever, to the acquisition of the sample, to the storeage of the sample in a place where NO ONE can get to it, even if in a vet's care or possession, to the shipping and handling....the collection and processing need to be SO well defined and documented - the possible loop holes are potentially disasterous for a show producer. It's a real mud hole and without a central governing body standing behind the rules and results and ramifications, it's a pitfall most producers don't want to tackle. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | smmthbr - 2017-01-17 4:05 PM
Sorry to keep barging in....it's my job to always be the devil's advocate and come up with the other side of the story. The producer mandating drug testing (rah rah!!) also better have a great legal team of lawyers standing behind him/her. Often times when a test comes back positive and the perpetrator is denied winnings, or their name sullied due to the test results being leaked without discretion, come back and sue to contest the decision. That's why the "chain of command" for any drug test has to be absolute and unquestionable - from the person greeting the horse at the gate, or wherever, to the acquisition of the sample, to the storeage of the sample in a place where NO ONE can get to it, even if in a vet's care or possession, to the shipping and handling....the collection and processing need to be SO well defined and documented - the possible loop holes are potentially disasterous for a show producer. It's a real mud hole and without a central governing body standing behind the rules and results and ramifications, it's a pitfall most producers don't want to tackle.
Maybe the answer to that is some sort of disclaimer, that everyone signs in order to enter, in which the consequences are clearly outlined.
I'll set things up for anyone......for a small fee  |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-01-17 4:19 PM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 4:05 PM Sorry to keep barging in....it's my job to always be the devil's advocate and come up with the other side of the story. The producer mandating drug testing (rah rah!!) also better have a great legal team of lawyers standing behind him/her. Often times when a test comes back positive and the perpetrator is denied winnings, or their name sullied due to the test results being leaked without discretion, come back and sue to contest the decision. That's why the "chain of command" for any drug test has to be absolute and unquestionable - from the person greeting the horse at the gate, or wherever, to the acquisition of the sample, to the storeage of the sample in a place where NO ONE can get to it, even if in a vet's care or possession, to the shipping and handling....the collection and processing need to be SO well defined and documented - the possible loop holes are potentially disasterous for a show producer. It's a real mud hole and without a central governing body standing behind the rules and results and ramifications, it's a pitfall most producers don't want to tackle. Maybe the answer to that is some sort of disclaimer, that everyone signs in order to enter, in which the consequences are clearly outlined. I'll set things up for anyone......for a small fee
A disclaimer wouldn't do much if they find that the samples were easily accessible to anyone. They could then argue the samples were tampered with.
I see what smmthbr is saying. Unless the sample taking was so air tight in the choosing, collection, storage, testing, etc anyone who wanted to contest could. And win. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 5:23 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 4:19 PM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 4:05 PM Sorry to keep barging in....it's my job to always be the devil's advocate and come up with the other side of the story. The producer mandating drug testing (rah rah!!) also better have a great legal team of lawyers standing behind him/her. Often times when a test comes back positive and the perpetrator is denied winnings, or their name sullied due to the test results being leaked without discretion, come back and sue to contest the decision. That's why the "chain of command" for any drug test has to be absolute and unquestionable - from the person greeting the horse at the gate, or wherever, to the acquisition of the sample, to the storeage of the sample in a place where NO ONE can get to it, even if in a vet's care or possession, to the shipping and handling....the collection and processing need to be SO well defined and documented - the possible loop holes are potentially disasterous for a show producer. It's a real mud hole and without a central governing body standing behind the rules and results and ramifications, it's a pitfall most producers don't want to tackle. Maybe the answer to that is some sort of disclaimer, that everyone signs in order to enter, in which the consequences are clearly outlined. I'll set things up for anyone......for a small fee
I see what smmthbr is saying. Unless the sample taking was so air tight in the choosing, collection, storage, testing, etc anyone who wanted to contest could. And win.
with out proper chain of custody any testing is worthless.
get your arse sued off |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | 1DSoon - 2017-01-17 4:27 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-17 5:23 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 4:19 PM smmthbr - 2017-01-17 4:05 PM Sorry to keep barging in....it's my job to always be the devil's advocate and come up with the other side of the story. The producer mandating drug testing (rah rah!!) also better have a great legal team of lawyers standing behind him/her. Often times when a test comes back positive and the perpetrator is denied winnings, or their name sullied due to the test results being leaked without discretion, come back and sue to contest the decision. That's why the "chain of command" for any drug test has to be absolute and unquestionable - from the person greeting the horse at the gate, or wherever, to the acquisition of the sample, to the storeage of the sample in a place where NO ONE can get to it, even if in a vet's care or possession, to the shipping and handling....the collection and processing need to be SO well defined and documented - the possible loop holes are potentially disasterous for a show producer. It's a real mud hole and without a central governing body standing behind the rules and results and ramifications, it's a pitfall most producers don't want to tackle. Maybe the answer to that is some sort of disclaimer, that everyone signs in order to enter, in which the consequences are clearly outlined. I'll set things up for anyone......for a small fee
I see what smmthbr is saying. Unless the sample taking was so air tight in the choosing, collection, storage, testing, etc anyone who wanted to contest could. And win.
get your arse sued off
Touche 1D, Touche. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I don't see chain of custody as something insurmountable.
Again, of those doing it now, how is it handled? Serious question. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 575
| I've never paid much attention, but now I'll have to ask about it more this weekend. At the cuttings there will sometimes be the 'drug lady' (omg what a jerk I am, I can't remember her name) walking around with a cup on a stick. It's just a known fact that she will randomly select horses to be tested after they show. Every contestant pays a drug fee in their entry's. Same horse entered in 2 classes pays the drug fee twice. There have been a few people to be suspended for drugged horses just at the local shows. |
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| Why do you think Lasix is used on practically every horse on the track??
NOT FOR BLEEDERS .... it is to pee off any excess drugs so they can't be
detected in the testing barn after the race has burned up what remained
in the spleen and muscles of the horse ... blood samples are also
taken and results takes about 2 weeks ..
New Mexico .. snake juice, pig juice, elephant juice, frog juice and
beef growth hormones had gotten so rampant they now allow
no haul ins and pre race random testing is done.
HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN ABOUT THIS ..
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/all-american-futuri...
AND THIS ..
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/hubbard-cheaters-a-cancer...
AND watch how dead tired #3 is at the end of this video and how stressed and tyed up he is ... they cut the video short and he never made it to the winners circle before being vanned off ... along with his stable mate an hour earlier ..
https://youtu.be/PEiV9dAGa9o
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2017-01-17 5:50 PM
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM
Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous.
Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it?
What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes. |
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| Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM
Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM
Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous.
Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it?
What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes.
Ok everyone ... crawl out of your rabbit holEs
AND >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
YOU DECIDE IF THESE 4 HORSES GOT SABOTAGED OR NOT ..
6 months after the All American incident and rulings by R D Hubbard owner
of Ruidoso Track ...
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/horse-co-owned-by-r...
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/hubbard-ruidoso-dow...
Most trainers swear their positive testing horses were due to hired help
doing meth, heroin, accidental injecting clenbuterol in the wrong horse
or snorting coke too close to their horses ... lol
HAVE FUN ....
Edited by BARRELHORSE USA 2017-01-17 6:42 PM
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM
Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM
Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous.
Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it?
What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes.
Yeah, it happens. A girl we rodeoed with was at the BFA years ago and she was good enough (made the NFR the year before) that someone drugged her horse. He went apes*^t crazy and she didn't get to run. She had the vet there drug test him and it came back positive for drugs. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | GLP - 2017-01-17 6:50 PM
Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM
Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM
Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous.
Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it?
What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes.
Yeah, it happens. A girl we rodeoed with was at the BFA years ago and she was good enough (made the NFR the year before ) that someone drugged her horse. He went apes*^t crazy and she didn't get to run. She had the vet there drug test him and it came back positive for drugs.
So you are saying it happens, regardless of a drug testing policy.
I'm sure it does. Some dink can slip my horse a Mickey Finn and do damage to me and my horse with far greater certainty than doing it to lead to a dirty drug test. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Bear - 2017-01-17 7:01 PM
GLP - 2017-01-17 6:50 PM
Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM
Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM
Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous.
Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it?
What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could.
Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes.
Yeah, it happens. A girl we rodeoed with was at the BFA years ago and she was good enough (made the NFR the year before ) that someone drugged her horse. He went apes*^t crazy and she didn't get to run. She had the vet there drug test him and it came back positive for drugs.
So you are saying it happens, regardless of a drug testing policy.
I'm sure it does. Some dink can slip my horse a Mickey Finn and do damage to me and my horse with far greater certainty than doing it to lead to a dirty drug test.
Yes sir, I am saying exactly that. And if they will do that to your horse, you can bet they are using drugs on their horses for their own benefit. I don't believe it's just some of the big dogs doing it, the 4D girl trying to hit the 3D money does it too.
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I am just saying it COULD happen, people are crazy. Jealousy can drive people to do insane things. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 7:15 PM
I am just saying it COULD happen, people are crazy. Jealousy can drive people to do insane things.
Yup....if I ever caught some sonnavab!tch slipping my horse anything he/she will wish they'd never been born.
We need more video cameras. |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I always thought that in the racing industry they should have a holding barn with cameras, horses go there the day before. Easy, 9 race card, 10 horses a race usually max. 100 stall barn, problem solved, but that is not barrel racing. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| Was a "fly on the wall" for a couple years helping produce races and have heard many conversations about drug use between top futurity trainers, nfr qualifiers, local 1D superstars, big-time brokers and greatly lost respect for so many. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 8:40 PM
I always thought that in the racing industry they should have a holding barn with cameras, horses go there the day before. Easy, 9 race card, 10 horses a race usually max. 100 stall barn, problem solved, but that is not barrel racing.
Indiana Downs has cameras in every barn. Security guards check credentials before you go to the back side. If you are a new owner never checked into their system they will search your car, truck, or trailer. If you have been flagged at other tracks for cheating or a bad test they will actually pat you down. Security guards stand at every breeze way and the ends of the barn. You cannot touch a horse unless you have a trainer or owner card around your neck and if your an owner and your petting your horse they will come and ask to see your badge and make sure it is in fact your horse your petting. I have been warned about petting another owner's horse that my trainer had stalled beside mine on the backside. I was only petting him/playing with his nose to pacify him while they took wraps off him as my trainer was short handed on help that day.
I cannot speak for other tracks but IN Downs has upped the purses and as a result upped their back side security.
Casino money pays for all of this though and like someone mentioned the only reason they test and have security in place is for the betting public not for animal welfare. |
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Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | GLP - 2017-01-17 7:50 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could. OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous. Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it? What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could. Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes. Yeah, it happens. A girl we rodeoed with was at the BFA years ago and she was good enough (made the NFR the year before ) that someone drugged her horse. He went apes*^t crazy and she didn't get to run. She had the vet there drug test him and it came back positive for drugs.
It even happens to kids at the FFA and 4-H level, let alone the national level showing livestock. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| 3canstorun - 2017-01-18 7:24 AM
GLP - 2017-01-17 7:50 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could. OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous. Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it? What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could. Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes. Yeah, it happens. A girl we rodeoed with was at the BFA years ago and she was good enough (made the NFR the year before ) that someone drugged her horse. He went apes*^t crazy and she didn't get to run. She had the vet there drug test him and it came back positive for drugs.
Yep, parents suck sometimes. Luckily we showed Santa Gertrudis and most of those parents were ranchers so there was never even a hint of foul play, but it is a relatively small group. The steer game- VERY different story there. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | GLP - 2017-01-18 7:36 AM 3canstorun - 2017-01-18 7:24 AM GLP - 2017-01-17 7:50 PM Bear - 2017-01-17 6:07 PM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 5:42 PM Ok, I will play devil's advocate also, what about sabotage. Someone sneaks in and gives someone else's horse something illegal, don't think it couldn't happen. It could. OK now we are starting to get just a little ridiculous. Stuff like that happens now, doesn't it? What if a cobra crawls up Nellie's ass and bites her and she tests positive for cobra venom? Don't think it couldn't happen. It could. Hell, just the other day I saw it with my own eyes. Yeah, it happens. A girl we rodeoed with was at the BFA years ago and she was good enough (made the NFR the year before ) that someone drugged her horse. He went apes*^t crazy and she didn't get to run. She had the vet there drug test him and it came back positive for drugs. Yep, parents suck sometimes. Luckily we showed Santa Gertrudis and most of those parents were ranchers so there was never even a hint of foul play, but it is a relatively small group. The steer game- VERY different story there.
Had a friends pig die right before the auction. Sent the pig off to see if it had any diseases. Pig died of heart failure due to a drug is what vet said. Can't remember which drug. This was a good 15 years or so ago. Pig just fell over and died. Barns back then had no cameras...
She was grand champion over all. Still think the reserve champ did it to get more money on her pig. My friend got maybe $500 back on her show pig.
Reserve got a heck of a payout.... |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | iloveequine40 - 2017-01-18 6:40 AM
Was a "fly on the wall" for a couple years helping produce races and have heard many conversations about drug use between top futurity trainers, nfr qualifiers, local 1D superstars, big-time brokers and greatly lost respect for so many.
Yes it happens way more than people think. Even NFR qualifiers that everyone loves and puts on pedestals. |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | mreklaw - 2017-01-18 9:45 AM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-18 6:40 AM Was a "fly on the wall" for a couple years helping produce races and have heard many conversations about drug use between top futurity trainers, nfr qualifiers, local 1D superstars, big-time brokers and greatly lost respect for so many. Yes it happens way more than people think. Even NFR qualifiers that everyone loves and puts on pedestals.
Like who?
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | 1DSoon - 2017-01-18 8:57 AM mreklaw - 2017-01-18 9:45 AM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-18 6:40 AM Was a "fly on the wall" for a couple years helping produce races and have heard many conversations about drug use between top futurity trainers, nfr qualifiers, local 1D superstars, big-time brokers and greatly lost respect for so many. Yes it happens way more than people think. Even NFR qualifiers that everyone loves and puts on pedestals.
I think I'd like to know as well....Followed by proof to back up your statement so this thread doesn't turn into hearsay and get deleted.... |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | This is from 2012:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/rodeo-chucks/Erickson+Still+wai... |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I've never heard of the organization "SHARK" before, but this is another interesting read. I don't necessarily agree with the list of banned substances.
https://lasvegassun.com/community/press-releases/1502/ |
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Saint Stacey
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If SHARK is so concerned...maybe they should step up or shut up and offer to pay for the testing. Especially at those smaller rodeos where they want random testing. SHARK is just about as bad an extreme as PETA.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | SKM - 2017-01-18 9:33 AM
If SHARK is so concerned...maybe they should step up or shut up and offer to pay for the testing. Especially at those smaller rodeos where they want random testing. SHARK is just about as bad an extreme as PETA.
I've never heard of them before. Are they like PETA? |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bear - 2017-01-18 10:38 AM SKM - 2017-01-18 9:33 AM If SHARK is so concerned...maybe they should step up or shut up and offer to pay for the testing. Especially at those smaller rodeos where they want random testing. SHARK is just about as bad an extreme as PETA. I've never heard of them before. Are they like PETA?
more fanatical, less funded
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas |
SHARK is a shock and awe organization. They have taken video and then have cut and spliced for it carry their message. I had to deal with them when I was rodeoing in the Midwest many years ago. They were well known for un-tieing horses at trailers and trying to get them to run off. They also have gone to dog shows and let dogs out of their crates. They feel an animal is better off being dead then being used and shown. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2017-01-18 10:42 AM
SHARK is a shock and awe organization. They have taken video and then have cut and spliced for it carry their message. I had to deal with them when I was rodeoing in the Midwest many years ago. They were well known for un-tieing horses at trailers and trying to get them to run off. They also have gone to dog shows and let dogs out of their crates. They feel an animal is better off being dead then being used and shown.
Ahhhh, now I think I know who they are. Before I owned my horse Bear, I believe he was tied up before a WPRA rodeo outside the Target center in Minneapolis, and these crazy zealots came along and turned him and others loose to run in downtown Minneapolis. |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | astreakinchic - 2017-01-18 7:21 AM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 8:40 PM I always thought that in the racing industry they should have a holding barn with cameras, horses go there the day before. Easy, 9 race card, 10 horses a race usually max. 100 stall barn, problem solved, but that is not barrel racing. Indiana Downs has cameras in every barn. Security guards check credentials before you go to the back side. If you are a new owner never checked into their system they will search your car, truck, or trailer. If you have been flagged at other tracks for cheating or a bad test they will actually pat you down. Security guards stand at every breeze way and the ends of the barn. You cannot touch a horse unless you have a trainer or owner card around your neck and if your an owner and your petting your horse they will come and ask to see your badge and make sure it is in fact your horse your petting. I have been warned about petting another owner's horse that my trainer had stalled beside mine on the backside. I was only petting him/playing with his nose to pacify him while they took wraps off him as my trainer was short handed on help that day. I cannot speak for other tracks but IN Downs has upped the purses and as a result upped their back side security. Casino money pays for all of this though and like someone mentioned the only reason they test and have security in place is for the betting public not for animal welfare.
Wow, thats eye opening! We have pretty good purses down here, our breeders futurity has a million dollar purse, and security is so lax they might as well not even have any. The security guards pretty much never leave the guard shack unless they need to tell someone to move thier truck or trailer. |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2017-01-18 10:49 AM Nevertooold - 2017-01-18 10:42 AM SHARK is a shock and awe organization. They have taken video and then have cut and spliced for it carry their message. I had to deal with them when I was rodeoing in the Midwest many years ago. They were well known for un-tieing horses at trailers and trying to get them to run off. They also have gone to dog shows and let dogs out of their crates. They feel an animal is better off being dead then being used and shown. Ahhhh, now I think I know who they are. Before I owned my horse Bear, I believe he was tied up before a WPRA rodeo outside the Target center in Minneapolis, and these crazy zealots came along and turned him and others loose to run in downtown Minneapolis.
They loved doing that.
They started to add security at the IPRA rodeos so none of them could get back to the trailers.
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Barnmom - 2017-01-18 11:59 AM
astreakinchic - 2017-01-18 7:21 AM Mighty Broke - 2017-01-17 8:40 PM I always thought that in the racing industry they should have a holding barn with cameras, horses go there the day before. Easy, 9 race card, 10 horses a race usually max. 100 stall barn, problem solved, but that is not barrel racing. Indiana Downs has cameras in every barn. Security guards check credentials before you go to the back side. If you are a new owner never checked into their system they will search your car, truck, or trailer. If you have been flagged at other tracks for cheating or a bad test they will actually pat you down. Security guards stand at every breeze way and the ends of the barn. You cannot touch a horse unless you have a trainer or owner card around your neck and if your an owner and your petting your horse they will come and ask to see your badge and make sure it is in fact your horse your petting. I have been warned about petting another owner's horse that my trainer had stalled beside mine on the backside. I was only petting him/playing with his nose to pacify him while they took wraps off him as my trainer was short handed on help that day. I cannot speak for other tracks but IN Downs has upped the purses and as a result upped their back side security. Casino money pays for all of this though and like someone mentioned the only reason they test and have security in place is for the betting public not for animal welfare.
I feel like IN Downs has rent-a-cops that need to feel empowered LOL and they are Yankees haha (sorry if you are one)
I was on the backside when a very well known trainer from OK showed up. His horses had day lighted the field a few weeks (maybe 2) before when they still had the one day QH races at Red Mile in KY. He made it through the front check in shack pulled his rig around the back to unload and it looked like a swat team of guards surrounding him. They ushered his grooms back in the truck and wouldn't even let him step outta the truck. His horses were scratched from all races and they sent him packing. No clue what they found or why they forced him to leave but it was something his groom had is what we heard. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | As far as drug testing at D races and rodeos go, it's been tried and failed. An association was formed in the south years ago with the noble intent to drug test. They didn't last very long.
It would be logistically impossible because of the lack of security at shows, length of time the event covers and the problem with expense that nobody wants to cover.
As far as the "animal rights" people go. Years ago (probably 20) some friends of mine went to run at the Cow Palace in SF, CA. While they were away from their rig some real intelligent people pulled the pin that kept the stinger in the receiver. They got back to the trailer and loaded up drove out on the street and the trailer and stinger came out of the receiver. There are lots of hills in SF. The trailer and horses rolled back down the hill into and through a fire station and stopped against the back wall of the fire station. On the other side of the wall was a shear drop off. The police told them the animal rights people were known to do just this thing. Idiots. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | OregonBR - 2017-01-18 12:01 PM As far as drug testing at D races and rodeos go, it's been tried and failed. An association was formed in the south years ago with the noble intent to drug test. They didn't last very long. It would be logistically impossible because of the lack of security at shows, length of time the event covers and the problem with expense that nobody wants to cover. As far as the "animal rights" people go. Years ago (probably 20) some friends of mine went to run at the Cow Palace in SF, CA. While they were away from their rig some real intelligent people pulled the pin that kept the stinger in the receiver. They got back to the trailer and loaded up drove out on the street and the trailer and stinger came out of the receiver. There are lots of hills in SF. The trailer and horses rolled back down the hill into and through a fire station and stopped against the back wall of the fire station. On the other side of the wall was a shear drop off. The police told them the animal rights people were known to do just this thing. Idiots.
WOW! 
What type of injuries did the horses have? |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The horses were fine. But it could have turned out way different. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-18 9:00 AM
1DSoon - 2017-01-18 8:57 AM mreklaw - 2017-01-18 9:45 AM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-18 6:40 AM Was a "fly on the wall" for a couple years helping produce races and have heard many conversations about drug use between top futurity trainers, nfr qualifiers, local 1D superstars, big-time brokers and greatly lost respect for so many. Yes it happens way more than people think. Even NFR qualifiers that everyone loves and puts on pedestals.
Lol no thanks I'm not mentioning names. I only overheard them talk about what they used never saw them in the act. It's not for me to smear someone by name. You can guess it to be whoever you want. Call it heresay whatever but I don't see this thread getting deleted over my statement as I didn't mention names. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 618
| IRunOnFaith - 2017-01-18 9:00 AM
1DSoon - 2017-01-18 8:57 AM mreklaw - 2017-01-18 9:45 AM iloveequine40 - 2017-01-18 6:40 AM Was a "fly on the wall" for a couple years helping produce races and have heard many conversations about drug use between top futurity trainers, nfr qualifiers, local 1D superstars, big-time brokers and greatly lost respect for so many. Yes it happens way more than people think. Even NFR qualifiers that everyone loves and puts on pedestals.
Uh news flash every "story" relayed on here is heresay. |
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New Info Detective
Posts: 1551
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Shark is another animal rights group like PETA. |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | rpreast - 2017-01-17 5:08 PM
I've never paid much attention, but now I'll have to ask about it more this weekend. At the cuttings there will sometimes be the 'drug lady' (omg what a jerk I am, I can't remember her name) walking around with a cup on a stick. It's just a known fact that she will randomly select horses to be tested after they show. Every contestant pays a drug fee in their entry's. Same horse entered in 2 classes pays the drug fee twice. There have been a few people to be suspended for drugged horses just at the local shows.
Frank Merrill wrote his column in QT Horse News a month or so ago on the need for the horse industry to police themselves on drug use and animal welfare before someone else (government or animal rights groups) steps in. It was very timely and interesting.
I don't know what the answer is; people will do anything for that almighty dollar. . . .
Edited by Chandler's Mom 2017-01-19 12:14 AM
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | Having spent a lifetime around the track, including being married to a trainer, I can guarantee that the people who truly need to be caught by a drug test are extremely unlikely to every be caught and face consequences. The true druggies know exactly what drug panels are currently being used, what they are capable of testing for and they are 99.9% of the time one step ahead of the process. And if by some fluke they are caught they have an attorney on retainer who will file injunctions until hell freezes over and they eventually get their money.
While drug testing is great in theory, in reality it is mostly a waste of time, effort and money.
JMHO |
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"Frog Juice"