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 Veteran
Posts: 178
 
| Question- how long should a horse go without pooping and showing no improvement before the vet should recommend sending to a hospital that can deal with colic (surgery)?
Long story short- my horse was at a trainers and started colicking. After a day he brought him to a vet clinic to get tubed. He spent 2 days there colicking with no changes (so now going on 3 days), hadn't pooped, etc, but the vet said he "feels good about him" and he didn't need to tube him again. He didn't want to palpate him again for fear of tearing. Until 10:00 on the third night when he was apparently BAD and I get a call they need to haul him 3 hours to a place that can perform surgery. I speak with surgeon over the phone and he keeps saying a horse "this bad off" bc he had a tear the size of a football. He was impacted in the small intestine but the tear was the concern. They tried surgery but he was contaminated and had to be euthanized. He had a 25% chance of survival going in to surgery.
I am in disbelief and heartbroken, this horse has NEVER had a problem. I can't stop thinking about it. When the problem started I offered to fly down, but it didn't seem necessary, like no big deal. It was so scary for me to send him in the first place because I am a freak about my horses and this was the first time I've ever had one leave me....and look what happened.
It started on a Tuesday. The trainer had been gone all weekend, so I don't know if maybe the problem started then. I just question the first vet. How could he let him go that long and think that is okay? Am I overreacting because I'm sick over the whole thing? There are just so many unknowns because I wasn't there.
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 Too Skinny
Posts: 8009
  
Location: LA Lower Alabama | Honestly there is no right answer. Surgery is a last resort because of all the many other complications that can come about. It doesn't help much but even if they had done surgery earlier there is no guarantee the outcome would have been different. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I don't think you are overreacting. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| My vet told me 50 percent of horses who colic will survive the surgery. 25 percent of those will survive the hospital recovery time.
If the bowel is leaking into the abdomen, if they survive the surgery only 10 percent of those horses will survive longer then 5 years.
They develop cysts or adhesions on the bowel due to the contamination of the abdomen, and it is only a matter of time before they colic. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 595
Location: North Dakota | When my horse had colic surgery 9 years ago they took him to surgery when he no longer was responding to pain meds. He was down and would not get up on a high dose of banamine. He was brought into surgery about 12 hours after we found him that morning. His case was a fatty tumor that was in his body cavity and began to cut off circulation to his small intestine. They removed the tumor and about a foot of dead intestine. He was given a 25% chance to live through the night. He is still here with me 9 years later, happy and spunky at the age of 24.
Now when it comes to how long to wait on no improvement is dependent upon each case. This same gelding who had surgery went in last year in April due to colic again and I was fearful it was another fatty tumor and he is 24 now and I would not put him through surgery again. He went in around 3pm this time and was given banamine by me at home around 1pm and given more by the vet around 8pm. We walked a good amount but he is old and was getting tired. He was comfortable and relaxing with the pain meds at the clinic. They did some mineral oil for him and wanted to wait and see how he was in the morning. I demanded he was put on fluids around 9pm after no poop and stayed with him till close to 2am. I knew this time felt different because he was so calm and the pain meds at him feeling comfortable. Nothing like what he was when he had to have surgery. I went home and got some sleep and when I got there the next morning he had ate some hay but still no poop. That had me worried but we went out for a morning walk and just moments into our walk, he pooped.
Biggest idea is how comfortable there are and how they are responding to meds. I would never think a horse that hasn't gone in 3 days is doing good. I would be very upset if I was you. I would've wanted action taken after 24 hours of no improvement.
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA | JMO, but it sounds like the first vet tore him while palpating. Maybe he didn't realize it, maybe he did, who knows? Once they tear, the probability of survival is small especially the size of the one your horse had.
?The trainer being gone also makes me question how long this horse had been having issues that may have gone unnoticed. Of course we lost our stud to colic and I was gone for three whole hours that day. He was fine when I left and in uncontrollable pain when I got home, the vet and I could not even get him in the trailer with enough drugs to put an elephant to sleep. At this point there is no way to prove anything and as much as it sucks, you will never really know what took place.
?So sorry for your loss. |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
No advice here, I would just like to say sorry for your loss. 
Edited by Runninbay 2017-01-23 11:12 AM
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
Location: Tulsa, Ok | Three, two days, 24 hours is TOO LONG. If a horse is not responding to pain meds it is time to act and tubing them is not necessarily the teatment of choice. If I go two rounds of banamine and my horse is not improving, they are on the trailer enroute to a facility that is equiped to handle the situation, be that IV fluids or surgery.
I am not an alarmist and routinely treat most issues at home, but colic is potentially life threatening and you better know when to make the call for really good interention. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| I am so sorry, I don't think you are over reacting. I would question the first vet too, that said if the tear was created by the impaction your outcome might still be the same. I've learned that with cases of colic, even mild ones, I skip the local vet and go straight to a clinic equipped for surgery. Twice I hauled to a local vet, they examine my horse, say they could treat him only to be told half hour later need to head to a clinic while they hand me a hefty bill.You were doing what you were advised and made the best decisions with the info you had, hugs. |
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 I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| So sorry for your loss and I understand the need to do something. I DO personally feel that the original vet had waited too long, doing too little, but that is where, as an owner, one needs to take charge and make sure something is done if your gut tells you something else needs to be done. I believe this whether it comes to vet or MD. Just because they have an education does NOT make them right 100% of the time.
All that being said, even if you had demanded something be done quicker, the outcome may very well have been the same.
I have made the decision twice, to get colic surgery.....with no insurance. The first mare had a 5% chance of survival...they removed 50 FEET of small intestine and she had a large, OLD tear in the mesenteric membrane through which her intestines had slipped through apparently on and off the 7 years I had owned her. She came through with flying colors, had no adhesions and went on to continue competing for years after with no bad after effect the 15 years until I had to let her go at age 30.
The other mare colicked with a 360 twist of the small intestine 2 weeks after foaling. She came through her surgery with flying colors, but several days later suffered a displaced cecum where she was completely shut down. The Vet college did not treat her very aggressively, so after talking to my local vet, I made the decision to bring her home and let him treat her. within a day, he had her pooping 14-15 piles a day....for several days. Then she sought out the barn, coming off pasture voluntarily and ended up in SO much worse pain that before. It took at LOT of medication to get her even a little bit comfortable so that my vet could palpate her, only to discover that she had a leaking aneurysm of the mesenteric artery. A belly tape showed lots of old blood in her belly so I had to let her go, leaving a 3 week old orphan and my broken heart.
The moral of the story is that you can do everything right, reacting immediately and it can still go terribly wrong.
Before anyone thinks I am blaming the OP, I am speaking from experience (in another matter entirely) and it is NOT fun. My heart goes out to Joplin21.
What I would do is make sure that that vet and probably trainer would never see my horses or money again.
Edited by rodeoveteran 2017-01-23 12:00 PM
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| First I want to say hugs.... and prayers to you over your loss.
I had a mare with colic this fall, came home Saturday night and she was colicking off the trailer. Called vet within an hour, tubed her and more banamine. Watched her over night. Small improvements but then she would go down hill again. Sunday around 11am, I finally brought her in. They kept her overnight, tubing and drugs. Monday around noon, vet said we needed a decision on whether to do surgery. This is a very reputable clinic with the ability to operate and they waited 48 hours because she was responding to pain meds.
Now her's was unique and ended up being caused be something else but we all thought it was colic until the necropsy. Long story short, I don't necessarily know that waiting a couple days is uncommon. But each situation is different.
Again, sorry for your loss. I've been there.
I was 11, pulled my mare out of her pasture and she laid down within 20 minutes. Walked her, gave banamine and within 2 hours she was down and wouldn't get up. Finally got her in the trailer, did surgery which didn't go well. There was a lot of damage. She made it through and 10 days after surgery she had an aneurism and died. Apparently there is a small chance of that has a side effect. Colic is my worst nightmare and I call the vet immediately because Ive seen it go from bad to worse in a short period of time. But I have a good relationship with my vet, he talks real talk to me and we go from there. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 448
Location: lone star state | Sorry for your loss. I've been in your shoes before :(
Get a stethoscope and keep handy and know how to use it to monitor your horses heart rate. Heart rate = pain, the higher the heart rate the more pain. After giving banamine, monitor heart rate. If within 15-30 minutes the heart rate hasn't decreased, time to seek veterinary attention. As others have posted get to know your nearest surgery center and go straight there bypassing a general veterinarian who is not equipped for surgery. Waiting decreases your chance for success if surgery is needed. So make contact with a veterinarian immediately so they can assist you in monitoring and determining when to go to clinic.
Here is a link with helpful info on preventing impact colic. (Not that this would have helped your horse, but good info to know)
http://equusmagazine.com/article/preventing-winter-colic-horses-259...
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | firewaterfuelsme - 2017-01-23 6:01 PM
Sorry for your loss. I've been in your shoes before : (
Get a stethoscope and keep handy and know how to use it to monitor your horses heart rate. Heart rate = pain, the higher the heart rate the more pain. After giving banamine, monitor heart rate. If within 15-30 minutes the heart rate hasn't decreased, time to seek veterinary attention. As others have posted get to know your nearest surgery center and go straight there bypassing a general veterinarian who is not equipped for surgery. Waiting decreases your chance for success if surgery is needed. So make contact with a veterinarian immediately so they can assist you in monitoring and determining when to go to clinic.
Here is a link with helpful info on preventing impact colic. (Not that this would have helped your horse, but good info to know )
http://equusmagazine.com/article/preventing-winter-colic-horses-259...
I agree with this 100percent.Im very sorry for your loss.i would be LIVID!!!! IM ACTUALLY DEALING WITH THIS KIND OF BS FROM MY OWN MEDICAL DOCTOR.I HAVE TO PUT MY BOOT UP HIS BUTT EVERYTIME I GO.ONCE I TELL HIM WHAT TESTS I WANT HE DOES THEM BUT DANG HES THE DOCTOR!!BE PROACTIVE,THEY WORK FOR YOU! |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I'm so sorry for your lost, I would be wanting answers too..
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2017-01-23 5:19 PM
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I'm so sorry for your loss.
I lost a horse after having colic surgery in 1997. He was in a vets care within 30 minutes of showing colic signs. I was at a surgical center within 4 hours. He survived the surgery but had to be put down later. It was my first and last colic surgery I'll ever do.
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | If your horse doesnt respond to first or 2nd shot of banamine and doesnt show improvement I head to a animal hospital that can handle surgery in case its needed as a emergency. The Banamine will help tummy aches but it wont help twists or impactions so thats how you can tell ......also I skip the vet clinic because these things can be emergency and so best chance to be right there... to tube more then once wont do a thing but cause a rupture because it has nowhere to go if its twisted or severly impacted..... the IV fluids can help more then tubing but once severly impacted or twisted your screwed and surgery is required usually....
for the loss There isnt anything you can do unfortunately.. but Im very sorry for your loss..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2017-01-23 7:41 PM
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | I have sent two to surgery. One immediately, I just knew, after 2 surgeries and a week at UF she didn't make it. The other was in and out and waited for almost two days. He had surgery and ended up just fine, even ran again.
So, who knows. Don't bother to second guess, it will just drive you crazy. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 678
Location: Canada | I think the first vet waited too long. Once the horse didn't start passing something within 24 hours things are going bad quickly. The tear could have been from the straining to pass the fecal matter.
The trainer should have maybe sent the horse sooner but maybe they were following the vet suggestion to start which is often to administer meds and see how they do. The vet without a doubt should have been more concerned and acted sooner.
Hugs to you! |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | So sorry for your loss, many prayers |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12842
| I am so sorry you had to go through this. It is not easy. My trainer is the best and knows the horseS in her barn well. If there is any problem she is as good as most of the vets around herE. I gave her instructions that if the horse colicks, do what you can to get her well. If the horse is not getting better, put her down.
My older horse colicked about a month ago. I can usually size up how bad the problem is pretty quick. Ran him to the vet and he was dehydrated. They pumped him full of fluids and he was OK. It was one of those deals that could have gotten bad fast.
This crazy weather, 75 one day and 15 the next just increases the possibility of colic.
Edited by streakysox 2017-01-24 10:37 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 178
| I do not blame the trainer in any way. I realize that sometimes $#!t happens, and from the moment he felt he was off, he called me and let me know. He also spoke with the vet several times and updated me a couple of times a day. We made the decisions together based on the vets recommendations. I had told him from the get go to do whatever he needed to do. He had great communication with me, and when he got really sick, went above and beyond- pulling an all nighter trying to drive him to save him and spending the night in his truck to be there with my horse. I feel terrible that he had to go through that and I know he felt awful. He did exactly what I would have done if I could have been there. There are no hard feelings toward him. In fact, I can't thank him enough. It must have been terrible.
My plan and God's plan were just different. I am going to miss him terribly- he was such a special horse with a true gift. It had been my dream to futurity, and I finally had a colt that I raised and got to this point where we could enter him. He went to the trainer for the winter so we could keep him running and ready for the year. |
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I Don't Brag
Posts: 6960
| Well it is a good thing that you trust the trainer....wasn't sure if it was a situation where your horse was not as high a priority to him/her as it was to you.
Some one commented about heart rate and I want to point out that although it is a common indicator of pain it is not always a definite one. The mare that had 30 feet (oops, I just realized I had wrote 50.....it was a long time ago and I am getting old...the memory is a steel trap built from a sieve these days), her heart rate NEVER went above 44 BPM, not here when she was running and then stopping to throw herself violently to the ground to thrash, jump up run again only to repeat the process.
I know that you are looking for answers, for what you could have done differently but the truth is, you could have done everything right and still ended with the same results. To your question about the first vet I say IMHO yes, he waited too long to refer somewhere for surgery but that was HIS/HER opinion, we want them to be Gods in a way, but they are not, some just barely graduated from vet school rather than Magna Cum Laude, same goes for doctors... Life teaches us that sometimes we need to listen to our gut, it's just that the learning curve sucks.
Again so sorry for your loss, nothing is going to make it better just don't beat yourself up forever, you did the best with the information you had at the time.
Hugs |
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Colic