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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Adding an update on page 3, for anyone who was following this...
Seeking opinions and ideas for a horse. He's got a couple of issues that I'd love to work on--and I don't believe they are directly related (but I know everything can be connected). He's a hotter horse, kind of a pain--big ego type of persona and you really have to be his boss type of horse.
First issue is while saddling. I don't know what to call it but cinchy, however, it's not your typical cinchy. I took a video of it yesterday, cinching him faster than I normally would. I will post video below to allow people to comment on each video/issue individually. He has had his kissing spine points checked but not x-rayed. His points are negative and my vet doesn't believe he has it. She does think it's possible that a nerve is exposed/lays on the outter layers of muscle and gets pressured while cinching. But I have no idea how to alleviate it.
Second issue is just needing some fresh ideas on drills for keeping him from getting short in his turns and helping him (and I) gain some confidence in each other. He was blown up in the past and I've gotten him so far. Like, he couldn't make it through a pattern or even lope circles when the barrels were set up with out having a complete anxiety driven meltdown. I will post video links below.
Thanks in advance.
Edited by RockinGR 2017-02-24 4:37 PM
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Video of cinching up.
https://youtu.be/K3rvwn0cRlQ
Once he's over it--usually takes a couple minutes, he's over it and it doesn't recur until the next saddling. He is not grumpy about it, but he is worried about it while it's happening. He wants to come to me (I don't want him to!) like I should be able to help him. I normally cinch him as slow as possible with lots of walking.
Before I connected all the dots, I have had him completely fall over. Like he has no communication with his legs for a minute or two if I tighten him up too fast.
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Riding videos. Taken yesterday after no riding for 6-7 weeks. He's not in great shape, but he plays enough everyday that he's in decent shape.
https://youtu.be/T2izzMxpJH4
https://youtu.be/7oAsquMtaIU
For reference, I'll see if I have a video of one of the first times I tried to take him through.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
   
| I wonder if your saddle is too tight..I see him favoring his R front and is hesitant to stretch out, especially when running. I have a barrel shaped mare that will do the same thing yours did if/when a saddle is pinching her whithers/shoulder area. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | veintiocho - 2017-01-30 11:32 AM
I wonder if your saddle is too tight..I see him favoring his R front and is hesitant to stretch out, especially when running. I have a barrel shaped mare that will do the same thing yours did if/when a saddle is pinching her whithers/shoulder area.
Hmmm...I doubt it's pinching, since it's a treeless. And the cinching behavior starts before I get the saddle tight. Like when I can still get my whole hand inside the cinch. I can't cinch him much looser and have the saddle stay put. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Try a different cinch.. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
   
| RockinGR - 2017-01-30 11:38 AM
veintiocho - 2017-01-30 11:32 AM
I wonder if your saddle is too tight..I see him favoring his R front and is hesitant to stretch out, especially when running. I have a barrel shaped mare that will do the same thing yours did if/when a saddle is pinching her whithers/shoulder area.
Hmmm...I doubt it's pinching, since it's a treeless. And the cinching behavior starts before I get the saddle tight. Like when I can still get my whole hand inside the cinch. I can't cinch him much looser and have the saddle stay put.
My mare does the same without the saddle being tight too. Have you tried a different saddle just to see? |
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| We had a QH off the track that used to do this. He would almost run sideways at you. He was so bad that I couldn't saddle him. My husband would have to do it for me. He just made me way to nervous. Once you got on him you couldn't ask for a nicer horse. I do not remember him really getting over it. We just got used to it. Sorry, wish I could add something more on this issue. It maybe just something you have to learn to live with.
As far as him getting short, google Connie Combs Square Exercise. I works great for keeping a horse standing up and not starting the turn too early. I have a horse that is really short too and I work on this slow and it puts him back into position. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 11:44 AM
Try a different cinch..
I think I will. Fairly affordable thing to try... |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | veintiocho - 2017-01-30 11:47 AM
RockinGR - 2017-01-30 11:38 AM
veintiocho - 2017-01-30 11:32 AM
I wonder if your saddle is too tight..I see him favoring his R front and is hesitant to stretch out, especially when running. I have a barrel shaped mare that will do the same thing yours did if/when a saddle is pinching her whithers/shoulder area.
Hmmm...I doubt it's pinching, since it's a treeless. And the cinching behavior starts before I get the saddle tight. Like when I can still get my whole hand inside the cinch. I can't cinch him much looser and have the saddle stay put.
My mare does the same without the saddle being tight too. Have you tried a different saddle just to see?
He does the exact same in my treed saddle, which I don't feel fits him great. That's actually why I'm using the treeless on him right now. I really want to find a treed saddle that fits, as I ride much better in one. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | turnthree - 2017-01-30 11:50 AM
We had a QH off the track that used to do this. He would almost run sideways at you. He was so bad that I couldn't saddle him. My husband would have to do it for me. He just made me way to nervous. Once you got on him you couldn't ask for a nicer horse. I do not remember him really getting over it. We just got used to it. Sorry, wish I could add something more on this issue. It maybe just something you have to learn to live with.
As far as him getting short, google Connie Combs Square Exercise. I works great for keeping a horse standing up and not starting the turn too early. I have a horse that is really short too and I work on this slow and it puts him back into position.
Mine too is usually a joy to ride. He has his head-up-arse moments, but most of the time he is a smooth ride. I have kinda learned to live with it, but I wouldn't mind selling him at some point, and I think that'll be a hard thing to sell. At least until I get him running good enough that people don't care. I do think he has it in him, I just need to get consistent with him.
I'll be looking up those CC exercises! Thank you! |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
       Location: Georgia | I wish I had a video of my mare to show you. One day im going to take one. She does something very similar but worse. She gets very nervous as soon as I put the saddle on her back. Cinching while tied is out of the question. The minute I start tightening she tries to run circles around me. It's not a respect issue because this mare is super respectful of my space. It's a pain issue somewhere. Ive never had her checked for kissing spine, although I should. She had a full lameness exam done last year and vet said most likely a rear end issue so I got her hocks and stifles done. She felt better overall while riding but didnt seem to help the cinch issue. It could just be a habit at this point. I'll be watching this thread for suggestions as well. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 695
     Location: Windoming | I second trying a different cinch, made a world of difference in my horse. He would actually flatten his ears and act like he was going to bite you! Totally different horse now. Let your horse choose what cinch he likes, not us. My horse preferred a neoprene cinch over anything else. According to people on here, he should hate it...... I was prepared to spend the bucks for a never tight if I had to, but fortunately, he liked the neoprene. |
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  Elite Veteran
Posts: 1176
     Location: Nor Cal | I had the same issue with my gelding.. with the same cinch. If that is the AirFlex cinch anyway.. I switched to a Classic Equine SensorFlex Roper cinch and the problem completely stopped. I felt like the rubberish material on the AirFlex was pulling his hair/pinching him. I would def try a different cinch to see if that makes a difference. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | kelli&hotrod47 - 2017-01-30 12:27 PM
I had the same issue with my gelding.. with the same cinch. If that is the AirFlex cinch anyway.. I switched to a Classic Equine SensorFlex Roper cinch and the problem completely stopped. I felt like the rubberish material on the AirFlex was pulling his hair/pinching him. I would def try a different cinch to see if that makes a difference.
It is an airflex. I have a mohair I can try. He did have a similar reaction with a different neoprene (ProChoice of some sort, not a cheap one) on my other saddle. I'm try the mohair and will do some shopping for a fleece and see what he thinks of those. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I am not a fan of those air flex cinches at all, to me they would pull and pinch, I love my fleece cinches and my neoprene cinches and yes I have heard that the neoprene are bad for your horses but I have never ever had a problem with them, I do have one horse that done care for the neoprene so I use my fleece Classic equine on him.. But the cinch would be the first thing I would try something different on your horse.  |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
     Location: OH. IO | I have nothing to add except he is exceptionally beautiful    |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
       Location: Idaho | RockinGR - 2017-01-31 10:54 AM
kelli&hotrod47 - 2017-01-30 12:27 PM
I had the same issue with my gelding.. with the same cinch. If that is the AirFlex cinch anyway.. I switched to a Classic Equine SensorFlex Roper cinch and the problem completely stopped. I felt like the rubberish material on the AirFlex was pulling his hair/pinching him. I would def try a different cinch to see if that makes a difference.
It is an airflex. I have a mohair I can try. He did have a similar reaction with a different neoprene (ProChoice of some sort, not a cheap one ) on my other saddle. I'm try the mohair and will do some shopping for a fleece and see what he thinks of those.
I would also try a different cinch. Also, have you ever tried to stretch him out after cinching him up? Looks like the cinch might be pinching him. |
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 Too Skinny
Posts: 8009
   Location: LA Lower Alabama | Would he buck if you started lunging him or hopped on and rode pretty quickly after saddling? And if he did is it a rear feet up or all feet down hop?
Have you tried without the rear cinch as well?
I too hate the "bubbles" on that cinch btw...
Edited by cowgalsissy 2017-01-30 1:14 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
   Location: Cocoa, Florida | He looked off on his front right and maybe sore on his feet, short stepping? Could have just been nervousness or concrete ground but I noticed front right def shorter?!
Could be a number of things, you said he was blown up before so maybe no one did any maintenance on him and he's anticipating the pain still? |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
   Location: Cocoa, Florida | RockinGR - 2017-01-30 11:15 AM
Riding videos. Taken yesterday after no riding for 6-7 weeks. He's not in great shape, but he plays enough everyday that he's in decent shape.
https://youtu.be/T2izzMxpJH4
https://youtu.be/7oAsquMtaIU
For reference, I'll see if I have a video of one of the first times I tried to take him through.
In the videos he doesn't look soft supple and relaxed, going to your 2nd and 3rd he's not using his butt to get up under himself and to the 3rd especially he's swishing his tail and bracing on his front end, is say pain related for sure. Just my opinion. |
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 Peat and Repeat
Posts: 2773
      Location: IN MY OWN LITTLE WORLD AT LEAST THEY KNOW ME HERE | IMO -
Look closely at 1st video. R back is not flexing under much as left back.
Rule of thumb-
Head up usually says it's the rear end. Head down is front end.
I would think about getting your pony checked on hocks n stifles.
Very nice pony :0))) |
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Veteran
Posts: 216
  Location: In between 4 ridges | My guy does the same thing. I also used that same cinch, have switched to a mohair and am currently treating for ulcers...
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle |
Thank you. That means a lot because I raised him, sold him, then bought him back 7 years later after he was blown up because I didn't want him ending up in a bad place. He was a freaking train wreck when I got him back. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | RnRJack - 2017-01-30 1:28 PM
He looked off on his front right and maybe sore on his feet, short stepping? Could have just been nervousness or concrete ground but I noticed front right def shorter?!
Could be a number of things, you said he was blown up before so maybe no one did any maintenance on him and he's anticipating the pain still?
In the cinching video or in both cinching and riding? I'm not ruling out some soreness, though it's hard for me to see because he is SO SO SO SO much better than when I got him back. He was run sore, and did anticipate it for a long time. I may take him down and put him on the lameness locater when I take my other horse to OSU in a couple of weeks.
P.S. the ground was pretty hard in the video. They had just got done with a team roping and I got to ride afterwards, but not with worked ground :( |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
   Location: Cocoa, Florida | Yakima - 2017-01-30 1:40 PM
IMO -
Look closely at 1st video. R back is not flexing under much as left back.
Rule of thumb-
Head up usually says it's the rear end. Head down is front end.
I would think about getting your pony checked on hocks n stifles.
Very nice pony :0)))
I noticed that as well, first lope the horses head was in the air more, looked more relaxed going the other direction. Looks hind end sore in barrel video but could be coming from anywhere. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
   Location: Cocoa, Florida | RockinGR - 2017-01-30 1:47 PM
RnRJack - 2017-01-30 1:28 PM
He looked off on his front right and maybe sore on his feet, short stepping? Could have just been nervousness or concrete ground but I noticed front right def shorter?!
Could be a number of things, you said he was blown up before so maybe no one did any maintenance on him and he's anticipating the pain still?
In the cinching video or in both cinching and riding? I'm not ruling out some soreness, though it's hard for me to see because he is SO SO SO SO much better than when I got him back. He was run sore, and did anticipate it for a long time. I may take him down and put him on the lameness locater when I take my other horse to OSU in a couple of weeks.
P.S. the ground was pretty hard in the video. They had just got done with a team roping and I got to ride afterwards, but not with worked ground : (
I see the ground was hard and I would take that into consideration, but still think he's sore, if it were MY horse I'd get him checked out. It's the tail swishing too. Could be a list of things. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | RnRJack - 2017-01-30 1:32 PM
RockinGR - 2017-01-30 11:15 AM
Riding videos. Taken yesterday after no riding for 6-7 weeks. He's not in great shape, but he plays enough everyday that he's in decent shape.
https://youtu.be/T2izzMxpJH4
https://youtu.be/7oAsquMtaIU
For reference, I'll see if I have a video of one of the first times I tried to take him through.
In the videos he doesn't look soft supple and relaxed, going to your 2nd and 3rd he's not using his butt to get up under himself and to the 3rd especially he's swishing his tail and bracing on his front end, is say pain related for sure. Just my opinion.
Not arguing, but in reference to the tail swishing...he flags a little, I had a half sister that did the same thing. Her's was not pain related, I exhausted every option looking into it, she just ran with her tail up. Both she and this gelding play in the pasture with their tails up as well. So I'm not sure how much of a sign that might be. He also did it as a young horse when we were just starting him.
I too feel like he is bracing for 2nd and 3rd. We've had a lot of troubles with those. I do not have the eagle eye to see if it's pain or anticipation of turning and/or pain. Or if there is actually pain... |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Yakima - 2017-01-30 1:40 PM
IMO -
Look closely at 1st video. R back is not flexing under much as left back.
Rule of thumb-
Head up usually says it's the rear end. Head down is front end.
I would think about getting your pony checked on hocks n stifles.
Very nice pony :0)))
I will be getting him checked out again :) Thank you! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 912
     Location: Alabama | I just have to know... is he an OTMR grandson?
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | cowgalsissy - 2017-01-30 1:10 PM
Would he buck if you started lunging him or hopped on and rode pretty quickly after saddling? And if he did is it a rear feet up or all feet down hop?
Have you tried without the rear cinch as well?
I too hate the "bubbles" on that cinch btw...
No, he does not buck at all. Even when I first got him back and he was definitely sore, he did not buck. He rode like a lumber truck, but he didn't buck. Now, as long as he's not worked up about something he's one of the smoothest horses to ride. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Sockittoemred - 2017-01-30 1:56 PM
I just have to know... is he an OTMR grandson?
Nope, no OTMR in him anywhere.
He actually has ApHC papers. Sire is Go Man Go and Triples Image (Three Bars), with some far off Skipper W. Dam is Sonny D Bar and further back she is Go Man Go. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Hes a good looking fella, how big of a fella is he and whats his breeding? Maybe once you get a different cinch on him he'll free up some, he just looks worried to me..  |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
       
| had a mohair cinch. Bought a Toklat fleece cinch and could hear my horse going AHHHHH! He loves it. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
   Location: Claremore, OK | A lot of times horses that are sore in the front end (feet, especially) will act like that when they're first cinched up. If you haven't had a good lameness exam with flexion tests done on black top, I would. Also hoof test the front feet, especially across frog and heels.
Given his bloodlines, I'd don't thin you can rule out PSSM either. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
   Location: Cocoa, Florida | RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:10 PM
Sockittoemred - 2017-01-30 1:56 PM
I just have to know... is he an OTMR grandson?
Nope, no OTMR in him anywhere.
He actually has ApHC papers. Sire is Go Man Go and Triples Image (Three Bars ), with some far off Skipper W. Dam is Sonny D Bar and further back she is Go Man Go.
I can see a lot of the sonny d bar in him, big stocky boy. He's handsome |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle |  |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:10 PM Sockittoemred - 2017-01-30 1:56 PM I just have to know... is he an OTMR grandson? Nope, no OTMR in him anywhere. He actually has ApHC papers. Sire is Go Man Go and Triples Image (Three Bars ), with some far off Skipper W. Dam is Sonny D Bar and further back she is Go Man Go.
Oopps didnt see this, I like him, hes a Beast.. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:12 PM
Hes a good looking fella, how big of a fella is he and whats his breeding? Maybe once you get a different cinch on him he'll free up some, he just looks worried to me.. 
He's bigger than he looks (IMO). He is probably 15.2-3hh. Not a brickhouse built horse, but he's not a bean pole either. Really really balanced, which is a stamp from daddy. He profiles almost exactly like his half sister, and he runs just like her too. She was on the hot/flakey side, but could run the prettiest, most honest pattern you've ever seen, every time. |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle |  |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:21 PM Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:12 PM Hes a good looking fella, how big of a fella is he and whats his breeding? Maybe once you get a different cinch on him he'll free up some, he just looks worried to me..  He's bigger than he looks (IMO ). He is probably 15.2-3hh. Not a brickhouse built horse, but he's not a bean pole either. Really really balanced, which is a stamp from daddy. He profiles almost exactly like his half sister, and he runs just like her too. She was on the hot/flakey side, but could run the prettiest, most honest pattern you've ever seen, every time.
Then you must be a tiny lady. LOL,,, |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:26 PM
RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:21 PM Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:12 PM Hes a good looking fella, how big of a fella is he and whats his breeding? Maybe once you get a different cinch on him he'll free up some, he just looks worried to me..  He's bigger than he looks (IMO ). He is probably 15.2-3hh. Not a brickhouse built horse, but he's not a bean pole either. Really really balanced, which is a stamp from daddy. He profiles almost exactly like his half sister, and he runs just like her too. She was on the hot/flakey side, but could run the prettiest, most honest pattern you've ever seen, every time.
Then you must be a tiny lady. LOL,,,
LOL, I'm 5'1"...with my boots on...if I stand up real straight.
That's me in my avatar pic, with my 15.1hh gelding. I was 29 when that was taken, so I'm starting to lose hope that I'll grow anymore.
Edited by RockinGR 2017-01-30 2:31 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:29 PM Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:26 PM RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:21 PM Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:12 PM Hes a good looking fella, how big of a fella is he and whats his breeding? Maybe once you get a different cinch on him he'll free up some, he just looks worried to me..  He's bigger than he looks (IMO ). He is probably 15.2-3hh. Not a brickhouse built horse, but he's not a bean pole either. Really really balanced, which is a stamp from daddy. He profiles almost exactly like his half sister, and he runs just like her too. She was on the hot/flakey side, but could run the prettiest, most honest pattern you've ever seen, every time. Then you must be a tiny lady. LOL,,, LOL, I'm 5'1"...with my boots on...if I stand up real straight. That's me in my avatar pic, with my 15.1hh gelding. I was 29 when that was taken, so I'm starting to lose hope that I'll grow anymore.
Oh my gosh you are a tiny little thing, thats why your boy looks so huge to me. Im 5'7 so thats a big different to me. LOL no hope for you getting anymore hight on you.. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
   Location: Cocoa, Florida | I'm 5'3", 5'4" on a good day and I struggle to get on a 15 hand colt lol, either that or I'm getting old! I'd need a ladder for him |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
  
| Have you checked him for ulcers? A horse with ulcers will be sore in girth area.
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 Expert
Posts: 2674
     Location: Silver Lake, MN | I'm not any help but I use that same cinch and am going to look into switching cause I do think they pull some.
I love your gelding and love even more he is an appy...bet people aren't expecting that one!! I also would check into PSSM as quite a few appaloosas are positive. After having one its one of the first things I check now. |
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Expert
Posts: 1409
     Location: Oklahoma | Do a massage if you know how or have someone give him a massage. You will be amazed what that will tell you. Muscles are connected and it will give you a better idea as far as what is going on or what to check. It is something simple and a great base point on where to start. Even if you think it is this area but when a different muscle is massage and by the horses reaction it like oh wow it actually there not where it was showing. hope I explained it right :)) good luck! |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:26 PM
RockinGR - 2017-01-30 2:21 PM Southtxponygirl - 2017-01-30 2:12 PM Hes a good looking fella, how big of a fella is he and whats his breeding? Maybe once you get a different cinch on him he'll free up some, he just looks worried to me..  He's bigger than he looks (IMO ). He is probably 15.2-3hh. Not a brickhouse built horse, but he's not a bean pole either. Really really balanced, which is a stamp from daddy. He profiles almost exactly like his half sister, and he runs just like her too. She was on the hot/flakey side, but could run the prettiest, most honest pattern you've ever seen, every time.
Then you must be a tiny lady. LOL,,,
That's what I was thinking!!! Cause he looks HUGE to me when you're beside him. Very pretty boy  |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
    Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | 2/24 Update.
I changed cinches from the airflex to an alpaca wool string cinch. He does seem to like it better, and has a much calmer reaction to it, so yay there!
I took him to Oklahoma State on Monday and had a full lameness done on him, including the lameness locator. He showed a push-off lameness in his rear, more notable in his left than right. Also had push off lameness in his right front, but not as significant as his rear.
They did two blocks, one low, one high. Improved on the higher block 60+%. Blocked the right heel and got some improvement there as well. Ordered rads. He had some sign of osteo-arthritis in his stifles, but not out of the normal for his age. Decided to inject those. He had very little going on in his right front heel. Navicular bone was a little oddly shaped, but the surgeon thought it actually looked fairly good. He wanted to wait to inject his front end to see if the stifle injections helped allieviate the front end, especially since it was a push off lameness not an impact lameness.
Going to a jackpot tonight, so we'll see how he feels... |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
        
| Good luck! |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
     Location: OH. IO | So glad you posted an update :)THANK YOU!! |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Glad to hear things are looking up you and your boy |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
      Location: Arkansas | Come back and let us know how y'all did---good luck  |
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