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 Regular
Posts: 84
| I was reading my barrel magizine. In the stud section was
Frenchman's guy clone.Guys duplicate. What is everybody
thought on this from a breeding stand piont. Very curious what and if you would breed or pay for a foal from this stud?
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 Expert
Posts: 2161
 
Location: NW. Florida | I saw it too, and no I wouldn't breed to him. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
 
| YOu cannot register the foal. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I raise horses, all 5 panel N/N with the hopes to better the breed. I will not regress and breed unregistered horses. |
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 Bulls Eye
Posts: 6443
Location: Oklahoma | NOPE. I hate the fact you can still breed to studs who are deceased (DTF, etc.) and I definitely wouldn't breed to a clone. How can you expect to better the breed and introduce new blood if you keep having the same horses. |
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Expert
Posts: 1432
| TwistedK - 2017-02-23 1:39 PM NOPE. I hate the fact you can still breed to studs who are deceased (DTF, etc.) and I definitely wouldn't breed to a clone. How can you expect to better the breed and introduce new blood if you keep having the same horses. I totally agree... I won't breed to a clone either. The markets already flooded with the FG bloodline and it'll never die.
Edited by 3TurnsonSpud 2017-02-23 2:59 PM
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I don't have as much invested emotionally in this as some do on this board but I wouldn't buy one. Mainly because of the registry issue. IMO even if he is a clone of something great, he is still unproven. |
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Veteran
Posts: 150
| In the barrel racing side of things does anyone know what horses have been cloned? I know Hot Shot, Scamper, and Latte. Any others? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Frenchman Guy has 3 clones and then Red Man Bay has two. |
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Regular
Posts: 50
| How does the sires seman differ from the clones? |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Nope. Unregistered foals. Unproven Stallion. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 808
| It doesn't, and this is why once a stud (that's still alive) as been cloned I refuse to either breed to him or purchase of any his unproven get.
There was a big hoopla a few years ago with a stallion whos babies used to win a lot. Suddenly the babies weren't placing as well etc. Turns out the stud had started to decline semen wise and eventually went sterile about 5 years prior and they had a clone of him and they had been shipping his semen out.
As shady as the horse world can be I'm sure it will happen again.
Edited to add this was not a barrel horse sire or even a quarter horse
Edited by The1CowgirlsEnvy 2017-02-23 7:55 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| Are any of these clone babies doing anything? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 557
Location: Kansas and loving it | Blaise is running her Red Man Bay clones. But so far none can be considered a successful sire, worth being kept a stud, that is. |
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 Expert
Posts: 2236
Location: Sherman, TX | The Latte clones I don't think are old enough to run but thought from a BHN article Mary was riding a young one. Think it said there are 4 Lattes? |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
Location: on the fine line between insanity and geniusness | For me, cloning comes down to a nature vs. nurture issue. Are the great equine athletes of this industry great because of simply genetics, or does their heart and the life experiences they've been through make them a superstar? I know that personally I have ridden some full siblings to really nice horses that weren't all that great. Sure they may be athletic, but they didn't have what it took to be a standout. Genetically you can reproduce them, but there is no way to duplicate the heart, grit and try that it takes for a horse to win like Hot Shot, Latte and Red Man did. I feel like cloning hits the breaks on our whole industry. It cripples us from going to try and make, breed and train better horses. There were great sires before FG and there will be great ones for years to come. Cloning seems like a lazy way to ride on the coat tails of what's already been done, instead of trying to create something better. |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Ashley Lynn - 2017-02-24 7:53 AM
For me, cloning comes down to a nature vs. nurture issue. Are the great equine athletes of this industry great because of simply genetics, or does their heart and the life experiences they've been through make them a superstar? I know that personally I have ridden some full siblings to really nice horses that weren't all that great. Sure they may be athletic, but they didn't have what it took to be a standout. Genetically you can reproduce them, but there is no way to duplicate the heart, grit and try that it takes for a horse to win like Hot Shot, Latte and Red Man did. I feel like cloning hits the breaks on our whole industry. It cripples us from going to try and make, breed and train better horses. There were great sires before FG and there will be great ones for years to come. Cloning seems like a lazy way to ride on the coat tails of what's already been done, instead of trying to create something better.
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| Jud Little had a Clayton foal called Scamper to Dat Cash that ran in the Superstakes at the BFA and I think had earnings of 10k before being sold at his production sale.
Does anyone know what happened to him?
I can't name anything else out competing besides Blasie running Douglas her RMB clone.
Dunno what Danny Ray is doing with his hotshot clones. I know the hot shot clones are patterned but where are they? Anyone know?
Edited by astreakinchic 2017-02-24 8:50 AM
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Posts: 4625
Location: Desert Land | astreakinchic - 2017-02-24 6:48 AM Jud Little had a Clayton foal called Scamper to Dat Cash that ran in the Superstakes at the BFA and I think had earnings of 10k before being sold at his production sale. Does anyone know what happened to him? I can't name anything else out competing besides Blasie running Douglas her RMB clone. Dunno what Danny Ray is doing with his hotshot clones. I know the hot shot clones are patterned but where are they? Anyone know?
Scamper to Dat Cash is here in So Cal. A friend of mine bought him through the Jud Little Dispersal Sale Dec 2015. He got injured last year and she has been bringing him back slowly. There was a big race here last weekend and he hit a barrel to be 2nd in the slot race behind a horse that placed at the NFR in 2015. |
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Expert
Posts: 1611
| TheOldGrayMare - 2017-02-24 10:12 AM
astreakinchic - 2017-02-24 6:48 AM Jud Little had a Clayton foal called Scamper to Dat Cash that ran in the Superstakes at the BFA and I think had earnings of 10k before being sold at his production sale. Does anyone know what happened to him? I can't name anything else out competing besides Blasie running Douglas her RMB clone. Dunno what Danny Ray is doing with his hotshot clones. I know the hot shot clones are patterned but where are they? Anyone know?
Scamper to Dat Cash is here in So Cal. A friend of mine bought him through the Jud Little Dispersal Sale Dec 2015. He got injured last year and she has been bringing him back slowly. There was a big race here last weekend and he hit a barrel to be 2nd in the slot race behind a horse that placed at the NFR in 2015.
Thats great he is still competing!!
Anyone know about the hot shot clones? |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | When I got my Barrelhorse Stallion Register and saw that Claytons stud fee was way way lower then when he was first standing I was like WHAT!!! My eyeballs almost popped outa my head..  |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | TwistedK - 2017-02-23 2:39 PM NOPE. I hate the fact you can still breed to studs who are deceased (DTF, etc.) and I definitely wouldn't breed to a clone. How can you expect to better the breed and introduce new blood if you keep having the same horses.
^^This.
The smaller the gene pool, the more possiblity for genetic defects to appear. (Look what happened with Impressive with HYPP and Poco Bueno with HERDA) It is always important to come up with "new blood".
No, I would not breed to him either.
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 Undercover Amish Mafia Member
Posts: 9992
Location: Kansas | I would never breed to a clone for the simple fact that the resulting offspring cannot be registered |
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Veteran
Posts: 183
Location: Wyoming | I would not breed to a clone. I really wish people would think outside the box sometimes. How will their ever be new blood. Pretty soon it will be a same ole same ole gene pool with no other options and then comes the genetic problems. Be diffrent think outside the box. |
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| I would not breed to a clone as they are unproven stallions siring unregistered babies. I have a lot of respect for the impact that the great sires have made on the horse industry however it is time to continue growing our gene pool and stop being selfish about trying to make all the money possible off of a particular bloodline. Enough is enough.
Also, when you breed to a stallion that has been cloned-how can you differentiate between the semen if it is an exact DNA match? What is the verification process to assure that you are receiving the senior sire's semen and not the clone's semen? |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| I am going to give a different perspective.
I am all for betterment of the breed
Through history we have learned so much about genetics, and lineage.
It wasn't till secretariat died we realized he was a large heart gene. We didn't realize what this meant on the race track till his male prodigy on the track was a flop.
Do I think by cloning could result in perfecting the breed, absolutely.
Frozen semen, would be ideal, but if no semen was stored, cloning another would be second best.
Imagine taking the best mares or stallions from this time and outcrossing on the best from 20 years from now. We could have some amazing horses.
I also believe cloning has not been perfected, in years to come it will become and exact science |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | I think it was the biggest mistake that the Owners of FG did. Why clone a legend? Breeders/Owners of his offspring don't benefit from them cloning FG. What a big disappointment.
Also, how do you know who's semen you get, FG or his clones???? Hmmm...... |
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Location: Wherever the Army sends my husband | LIVE2RUN - 2017-02-28 2:12 PM
I think it was the biggest mistake that the Owners of FG did. Why clone a legend? Breeders/Owners of his offspring don't benefit from them cloning FG. What a big disappointment.
****Also, how do you know who's semen you get, FG or his clones???? Hmmm......****_
You won't know. Its why I refuse to breed to any FG stallion that wasn't on the ground before the clones were.
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 JMHO
Posts: 1869
Location: Oklahoma | I'm just a little, hardworking, horse loving barrel racer that could NEVER afford a Frenchmans Guy. I'd love to try one and love even more to own one. I considered breeding to Guys Duplicate. Now that you can have them DNA'd to prove the parents, registered isn't nearly as important to me. The only thing stopping me is I really don't have the time to invest in a colt while keeping 2 horses going, a full time job and being in the AF Reserves. JMHO |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| I really think that Frenchmans Guy was cloned was because they had the had the money to clone the horse. They did not have a really good son to replace FG and the cloning facility had everyone believing that with they would win their lawsuit against AQHA and the clones would be registered.
Clones of cutting horses have not really worked out very well. NCHA does not care if they are registered or not. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| I understand that the cloned polo ponies have worked out very well, but the cloned cutters have not. I know little to nothing about genetics, but does anyone have any possible explanations for this? |
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| There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM
There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies.
The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females.
AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost.
This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
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| Dreamin of 3cans - 2017-03-01 8:54 AM
I'm just a little, hardworking, horse loving barrel racer that could NEVER afford a Frenchmans Guy. I'd love to try one and love even more to own one. I considered breeding to Guys Duplicate. Now that you can have them DNA'd to prove the parents, registered isn't nearly as important to me. The only thing stopping me is I really don't have the time to invest in a colt while keeping 2 horses going, a full time job and being in the AF Reserves. JMHO
Never say never! I trained and sold 4 horses one year, so I could have some spending money at the Myers sale. I brought a FG home that I considered a "steal" (but still a lot of money for a horse LOL!) but she has been worth every penny so far. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| OregonBR - 2017-03-01 11:07 AM
Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM
There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies.
The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females.
AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost.
This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
That is really interesting. Could it be that the polo ponies are using proven mares as the MtDNA donors and that is why they seem to be more success in the performance pen? |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| My position is evolving on clones. First of all AQHA registration doesn't mean that much to me. With the exception of perceived resell value, it does nothing. There are plenty of ways to prove what the horse is now days with DNA testing. I'd probably be willing to give one a try if the cost were considerably lower than the "real" version. For me, I see no real moral dilema that we aren't already participating in via frozen, shipped semen, ET, etc. FG offspring are obviously successfull in a variety of environments, so the nurture aspect is mute in my opinion. I would also assume that a "under performing" dose of MDNA from the clone would probably still be more successful than many stallion standing today. So in summary, depending on price, I might be willing to give it a chance. |
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| OregonBR - 2017-03-01 10:07 AM Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females. AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost. This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
They must have used FG's sister then, because they are promoting it carries the exact mitochondrial DNA. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | GLP - 2017-03-01 9:45 AM
OregonBR - 2017-03-01 11:07 AM
Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM
There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies.
The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females.
AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost.
This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
That is really interesting. Could it be that the polo ponies are using proven mares as the MtDNA donors and that is why they seem to be more success in the performance pen?
Could have. I think I read that the owner of Dashing Phoebe used her eggs for her clone. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Kaye - 2017-03-01 9:51 AM
OregonBR - 2017-03-01 10:07 AM Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females. AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost. This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
Very possible. In which case the MtDNA is an exact match. So it's not even possible to determine the difference between FG and his clone. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | For those interested in reading more about the importance of MtDNA, here's an article about the tail female line and it's influence.
https://www.speedhorse.com/spotlights/m.blog/101/the-tail-female-lin... |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| Kaye - 2017-03-01 11:51 AM
OregonBR - 2017-03-01 10:07 AM Kaye - 2017-03-01 7:28 AM There also was a bunch of racing mules that did not perform like the original. (You can probably google it still) Maybe an issue with nature vs nurture? I know there was a big argument with mitochondrial DNA, but I see that some how they matched the FG clones mitochondrial DNA too. Maybe it's advancements in science. From what I read it a different company that cloned the polo ponies. The only way to "match" the MtDNA is to get an egg from the same female family to use for the shell of the egg. MtDNA comes from the egg shell and is only passed from the tail female family through females. AQHA's DNA test to prove parentage is unable to determine the difference between a clone and his original. There is testing that can tell the difference between them but not the one AQHA uses. Once a foal is produced using the semen from the clone or the original there is no test to tell the difference because the MtDNA is lost. This is not the case with female clones. They will pass on their MtDNA to all their foals. That's also a problem because that MtDNA is important genetic material that when a clone is made may have come from any type of mare. Since the cloning industry gets their material for the eggs from slaughter mares, who knows what they are.
Mitochondrial DNA is found in the MITOCHONDRIA. That could very well be why it is called mitochondrial DNA. (mtDNA) It does carry the maternal side of the DNA. In cloning the DNA is removed from the oocyte or egg and the donor's nuclear DNA is placed in the oocyte. Since mtDNA is responsible for energy production, it doesn't have a lot to do with the inherited traits. Nuclear DNA is found in the nucleus of the cell and is responsible for cell division and replication or duplication of the genetic material. Yes, there is nuclear DNA from the female also.
Here is a pretty good article on the cloning process
http://www.allaboutcutting.com/images/glo-images/PDFs/Cloning%20pdf...
Edited by streakysox 2017-03-01 2:17 PM
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 Pres. ViaGen
Posts: 46
| Just to clarify a few things. Yes, same company cloned the polo horses. Same proven process. MtDNA is not transmitted by sires, so mtDNA haplotype in sires for breeding is irrelevant. ViaGen does often test mtDNA haplotype for clients and can produce foals of same haplotype if requested. ViaGen has tested hundreds of horses for mtDNA haplotype and understands the lack of association of mtDNA haplotype with performance. Female lines are important because of their chromosomal DNA contribution to their foals which include sex linked traits. Those who refuse to breed to clones for AQHA Registry have a valid point. Alternative is to register in ADNA to have DNA tested pedigree but this does not qualify a horse for AQHA competitions. Every horses performance is a combination of DNA x Environment (nature vs nurture) however breeding value is purely DNA. If the donor sire is a proven producer, then the cloned stallion is proven by definition. Just as many of top barrel sires are not proven in the arena, however, their offspring proved their genetic value.
I hope this helps someone who is honestly trying to understand the technology. |
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Cloning Frenchman guy