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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
  
Location: Ohio | I have a long yearling that has some very weird symptoms and Im hoping to pick everyone's brains because both the vet and I are stumped. When I first went to the barn tonight I noticed my filly laying down napping (not unusual for her at all) but when I went in a few minutes later to check on her she didn't jump right up like she normally would. Once I asked she got right up but within a few minutes went right back down and started to role. Called vet thinking it was colic. After that I started checking her all over, went to check gum color and almost fell over from the smell coming out of her mouth and notice a lot of dead skin had collected inside her lips. No lesions, redness or anything to explain it.
Start walking her, lots of poop, she stops acting colicky and goes to shaky and wobbly (standing with feet spread apart for balance), lays down and starts bobbing her head sideways like she is moving her head to music. Vet shows up, temp, heart rate, gut sounds are all normal. Gives her some banamine just to be safe. We start checking her mouth and find nothing! No bad teeth, no abscess... no nasal drainage, facial swelling or swollen lymph nodes... not one hair is out of place. He doesn't think its epm but will run her blood to be sure but it still doesn't explain her mouth. Seemed less wobbly after banamine kicked in. Starting her on antibiotics, he is going do research tonight and get some advice from other vets he knows at OSU to see where we go next. Has anyone ever heard of anything like this?
Edited to add: There have been no changes in feed, i havent vaccinated or dewormed any of my horses yet.
Edited by GrittyCowgirl 2017-03-23 9:18 PM
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
 
Location: Arkansas | Please let you know what you find out. Sending thoughts and prayers your way. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | horsesidevetguide.com/drv/Observation/171/foul-odor-from-mouth-or-face-bad-breath/ |
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 Peat and Repeat
Posts: 2773
Location: IN MY OWN LITTLE WORLD AT LEAST THEY KNOW ME HERE | Did he ck her for pneumonia?
Or
Strangles?
Edited by Yakima 2017-03-23 11:37 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | Lung sounds are clear so far and no swollen lymph nodes. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | jake16 - 2017-03-22 11:54 PM
horsesidevetguide.com/drv/Observation/171/foul-odor-from-mouth-or-face-bad-breath/
Thank you. We worried about the possibility of ulcers so were hesitant of giving her banamine. She is passing manure fine. I offered her soaked hay and beet pulp earlier she took one bite, spit it out after trying to chew it and coughed a few times. |
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boon
Posts: 1
| Has she hit her head on anything? I work in a hospital and we associate really foul breath (for no obvious reason) with head trauma. We call it neuro breath. Possibly a head bleed or some sort of trauma. I know it sounds crazy but worth looking into! |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Maybe check her kidneys. Did you dobloodwork yet?I would check for kidney failure.Good luck.i hope she's ok. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Any update this morning OP? |
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  The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | jake16 - 2017-03-24 5:17 AM Maybe check her kidneys. Did you dobloodwork yet?I would check for kidney failure.Good luck.i hope she's ok.
This.^^^^^ |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Did they check guttural pouch/ sinuses? I know when I have a bad sinus infection, my breath can smell. |
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I Really Love Jeans
Posts: 3173
Location: North Dakota | A friend of mine had a horse acting similar and it ended up having insulin resistance. The vet eventually had to put the horse down. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Just checking in for an update. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | Sorry everyone! Ive been at the barn for the past 48 hours. We have some weird stuff going on and while we have the filly feeling better nothing is adding up.
Friday morning after the banamine was worn off the filly still seemed less off balance but was extremely weak and tired. A few times she had trouble getting up and needed help. No interest in food and water but was still pooping and peeing. Just wanted to lay down and was over all very quite. Vet came out later in the afternoon to check on her and get more blood. He decided to put a tube down her and see what was in her stomach (by this time we thought she had ingested something toxic because she was colicky)... as soon as that tube hit her stomach we had instant reflux and we took out 4 gallons of the most foul smelling, rotten watery liquid came out of her. This whole time she had been pooping and hadn't drank any water. As soon as we put some water and electrolytes back in her she really perked up. Even this morning she is more perky, walking around but still not eating or drinking well so vet will be out later to put her on fluids. She also didnt have much manure in her stall last night but had plenty of wet spots.
Later yesterday afternoon right before vet left momma started acting tired and depressed but not neurological. We are running tests on both and will have results on kidney/liver function this afternoon. It will be later in the week before we get results for any like epm, toxins, ect.
Im grabbing some food and heading back. I will try to get back on later this afternoon to give an update.
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I would be checking for West Nile/Sleeping sickness/vee.. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3104
Location: Arkansas | I would definitely have a CBC and Chemistries run. Kidney issues can cause bad breath and ulcers (in dogs, so I would assume in horses as well). Maybe check Leptospirosis titers
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | Im waiting for the vet to call with results for CBC. No one has been on or off the property since August and no mosquitos out yet at our place. We are hoping to see something to shed light on this from the blood work. So frustrating.
Edited to add neither have had an elevated temps or heart rate even when acting like they are in pain which was really odd to us.
Edited by GrittyCowgirl 2017-03-25 1:36 PM
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Continued prayers.  |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas |
Ditto on the continued prayers.. Please give us an update as soon as you know anything.. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas |
Adding my prayers to these. We'll have faith that you'll come back soon with good updates |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | What grain do you feed? Maybe you got some contaminated feed. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 112
| Did your vet mention anything about an anterior enteritis? They will produce a lot of reflux with that and can have pretty potent breath. Horses can be pretty stoic and have normal heart rates and such with it. Has he refluxed her any more since that first time?
**edited to add that they can perk up after being refluxed, as they feel much better for a short time since you have removed all of that fluid/feed that was sitting there. Which makes sense why she felt better after being refluxed.
Edited by Red3 2017-03-25 11:36 PM
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | If she had reflux of foul smelling and alot of liquid Id be taking her in .you said 4 gallons came out... why do you thing that is? its because She may have a blockage in her bowel.. her stomach will continue to produce fluid .. she doesnt have to drink anything and also she will have manure from whatever is behind the blockage will come out.. It is serious if that fluid her stomach and large intestine is producing isnt able to pass her gut will rupture. something to consider if what you posted is correct.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2017-03-25 11:54 PM
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| Red3 - 2017-03-25 11:34 PM
Did your vet mention anything about an anterior enteritis? They will produce a lot of reflux with that and can have pretty potent breath. Horses can be pretty stoic and have normal heart rates and such with it. Has he refluxed her any more since that first time?
**edited to add that they can perk up after being refluxed, as they feel much better for a short time since you have removed all of that fluid/feed that was sitting there. Which makes sense why she felt better after being refluxed.
Red3 ... very good thinking ... inflamed swollen small colon can create
all the symptoms described by OP.
Lots of poop from one end until the 2 days of previous eating is pooped
away and the swelling causes reflux due to any fermenting feed.
And especially the dry mouth ...
I have been involved in two situations over the years .. treatment
is tricky .. IV Electrolytes in young horses to keep dehydration down ..
while body attacks the colon swelling .... 1-2 weeks horses improved
back to normal.
Grown horse IV Electrolytes can get super expensive due to body
size and amount of urination ... due to high cost of IV fluids ..
Hope it is a more simple dose of some other disease ...
****************************************************
Worst case salmonellosis ... with Mama getting sick too .. this could
be a problem ... humans are in danger also .. so get into quarantine
mode in a hurry with strict handling and no touching anyone or horses ..
This stuff is carried by mice, rats in your feed/hay, birds crapping on
ground, in water or anywhere etc etc ...
This stuff is serious to all your horses and to you and your family ..
so act accordingly!!
I have had one case of this from a baby that caught it at a big stud
farm and colostrum was not tuff enough nor was babies immunity
mature enough to fight it off ... mare stayed clean and healthy due
to putting both in a small isolated pasture with lots of sunshine ..
Spent $700 with stud farm with no diagnosis ... and no treatment.
Race track vet had 2-3 cases the year before and went into
attack mode ... had to make sure no other antibiotics had been
used and then started Baytril ... which is a deep body antibiotic ..
along with IV fluids... for a week? .. baby came back to normal
one day from being lethargic and weak previously ...
so guess it worked .. lol ... baby grew off normally ...
I did keep the baby on the mare for a full 7 months before
weaning ..
Potomac horse fever is a little similar .. so mention it in conversation
with your vet ..
NOTE:
If your horses have digestive tract "infection" .. keep in mind it is easy
to kill the good gut bacteria and the bad gut bacteria to run rampant ..
so make a note to vet it out to re establish the good gut bacteria after
horses start to improve !!
GOOD LUCK ..
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | Thank you all for all the amazing info!!! You guys seriously kick butt. I have been at the barn for 4 days straight and things have finally started to turn around. The filly has been banamine free for 36 hours, has been making lots of poo and it back to eating and drinking (and being her normal ornery self). Mom is about 14 hours of being banamine free, lots of manure, eating and drinking as well but has a small amount of clear/white nasal drainage.
We are still puzzled. Everyone is up to date on everything. I have 4 other horses on that same feed (purina ultium) and the same hay (good quality grass mix) who have had zero issues. Nothing gave us any clues with a CBC, we did send bloodwork out to be checked for possible toxins, epm, diseases but it won't be back until Tuesday or Wed. The will be staying on antibiotics for a few days just to be certain and both received dex when we thought it may have been a toxin or reaction for something.
This will be the second time in 6 months that this mare has had bad gas colic out of the blue but a first for her filly. Im wondering if the Purina Ultium is just to rich of a feed for her and her filly. Both of these guys were in sorry shape when I bought them in late summer last year and had a really nice bloom starting. I may slowly start switching to a low starch senior feed for the time being (or anything you guys may recommend for a possible colic prone horse).
Please excuse grammar and spelling mishaps... I am sleep deprived and exhausted.
Edited by GrittyCowgirl 2017-03-26 6:03 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | Red3 - 2017-03-25 12:34 AM
Did your vet mention anything about an anterior enteritis? They will produce a lot of reflux with that and can have pretty potent breath. Horses can be pretty stoic and have normal heart rates and such with it. Has he refluxed her any more since that first time?
**edited to add that they can perk up after being refluxed, as they feel much better for a short time since you have removed all of that fluid/feed that was sitting there. Which makes sense why she felt better after being refluxed.
I will be looking into this and passing it along to the vet as well. We did check her reflux the next day to see she if she had built up fluids but her stomach contents smelled a lot better and vet thought stomach contents looked/smelled closer to normal. The first time we checked it literally smelled like rotten, soured, fermented grain. She perked up after flushed her stomach out the first time and hasn't had any issues since then. I've never had a horse colic that bad and not show signs of pain or have at least an elevated heart rate.
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | GrittyCowgirl - 2017-03-26 5:36 PM Red3 - 2017-03-25 12:34 AM Did your vet mention anything about an anterior enteritis? They will produce a lot of reflux with that and can have pretty potent breath. Horses can be pretty stoic and have normal heart rates and such with it. Has he refluxed her any more since that first time? **edited to add that they can perk up after being refluxed, as they feel much better for a short time since you have removed all of that fluid/feed that was sitting there. Which makes sense why she felt better after being refluxed. I will be looking into this and passing it along to the vet as well. We did check her reflux the next day to see she if she had built up fluids but her stomach contents smelled a lot better and vet thought stomach contents looked/smelled closer to normal. The first time we checked it literally smelled like rotten, soured, fermented grain. She perked up after flushed her stomach out the first time and hasn't had any issues since then. I've never had a horse colic that bad and not show signs of pain or have at least an elevated heart rate.
Its to bad that horses cant throw up.. so they can at least get the toxins out of their stomachs.  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 683
Location: Ohio | BARRELHORSE USA - 2017-03-25 4:10 AM Red3 - 2017-03-25 11:34 PM Did your vet mention anything about an anterior enteritis? They will produce a lot of reflux with that and can have pretty potent breath. Horses can be pretty stoic and have normal heart rates and such with it. Has he refluxed her any more since that first time? **edited to add that they can perk up after being refluxed, as they feel much better for a short time since you have removed all of that fluid/feed that was sitting there. Which makes sense why she felt better after being refluxed. Red3 ... very good thinking ... inflamed swollen small colon can create all the symptoms described by OP. Lots of poop from one end until the 2 days of previous eating is pooped away and the swelling causes reflux due to any fermenting feed. And especially the dry mouth ... I have been involved in two situations over the years .. treatment is tricky .. IV Electrolytes in young horses to keep dehydration down .. while body attacks the colon swelling .... 1-2 weeks horses improved back to normal. Grown horse IV Electrolytes can get super expensive due to body size and amount of urination ... due to high cost of IV fluids .. Hope it is a more simple dose of some other disease ... **************************************************** Worst case salmonellosis ... with Mama getting sick too .. this could be a problem ... humans are in danger also .. so get into quarantine mode in a hurry with strict handling and no touching anyone or horses .. This stuff is carried by mice, rats in your feed/hay, birds crapping on ground, in water or anywhere etc etc ... This stuff is serious to all your horses and to you and your family .. so act accordingly!! I have had one case of this from a baby that caught it at a big stud farm and colostrum was not tuff enough nor was babies immunity mature enough to fight it off ... mare stayed clean and healthy due to putting both in a small isolated pasture with lots of sunshine .. Spent $700 with stud farm with no diagnosis ... and no treatment. Race track vet had 2-3 cases the year before and went into attack mode ... had to make sure no other antibiotics had been used and then started Baytril ... which is a deep body antibiotic .. along with IV fluids... for a week? .. baby came back to normal one day from being lethargic and weak previously ... so guess it worked .. lol ... baby grew off normally ... I did keep the baby on the mare for a full 7 months before weaning .. Potomac horse fever is a little similar .. so mention it in conversation with your vet .. NOTE: If your horses have digestive tract "infection" .. keep in mind it is easy to kill the good gut bacteria and the bad gut bacteria to run rampant .. so make a note to vet it out to re establish the good gut bacteria after horses start to improve !! GOOD LUCK ..
I was shocked when the vet warned me of the price. Thank goodness I have a friend who knows a lot of people in the medical industry who sold me human grade iv fluid at their cost (they buy in bulk and pay SO much less than a lot of vet clinics). Moral of the story... make friends with medical supplies people!!! lol
I was worried about killing off good gut bacteria too so have stocked up on both paste and feed through probiotics. Is there a better brand or type? I forgot to ask the vet last time I had him on the phone.
Edited by GrittyCowgirl 2017-03-26 5:53 PM
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | My advice on the ptobiotics is get them restarted with a ptobiotic paste and then put them on Forco. The Forco will help tremendously with your digestive and colic issues. |
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Bad breath and neurologic problems... no bad teeth