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 Expert
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Location: IL | I have a 5 yr old that I bought a month ago. She is very nice and has a great temperment. She is lightly patterned on barrels and I wanted to possibly furturity her this year. Couple things I need to work on is making her soft. She doesn't bend very well and very stiff in her face. Will stick her nose out. I have been working flexing with a halter and lead rope and I ride her in a oring and I've been working on flexing with that, but she is so stiff and fights me. Sometimes she tosses her head and I don't want that to be a problem on the pattern. I have had her teeth checked and done. No pain issues. She is just a pushy type horse. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
| Have you have her checked by a chiropractor? She may have poll or TMJ issues?
No? Do that first.
If yes, then do you have a round pen? or even a large stall/lot? I'd bit her up with an o-ring, using an old saddle or surcingle a couple days a week. You don't have to tie her head between her legs, but even tension. I know it's old school, but I had an older mare that was the same way...I tried all the new age BS and this was the only thing she understood. I am not saying make her mouth raw...but being a little sore won't hurt her. If you have a round pen, I'd even free lunge her that way... | |
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Veteran
Posts: 227
Location: Heart of Texas | have you had her chiro'd? | |
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Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | Chiro didn't find anything major. | |
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Location: South Dakota | Get her checked thoroughly by a good chiro...when horses are pushy, bracey, resistant, often the root of it is physical restrictions, causing it to be hard for them to respond correctly.
Get on a chair behind her, at look towards her head....are her shoulders even? Is her spine even and in alignment? I have been down this road, with my mare, who struggled with softness, and eventually I realized, she had a major issue, affecting her ability to be soft. | |
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 Good Grief!
Posts: 6343
Location: Cap'n Joan Rotgut.....alberta | Id get her teeth looked at and if no change off to a good lameness vet....m | |
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Location: IL | Ok guys thanks for the advice,but this horse is not sore. I've had her looked at and teeth are done. She is still learning and the person that broke her out did not teach her how to be soft correctly. This horse is still new and learning. She is not sore and no teeth issues. I have already got her flexing better than when I first bought her but I need more advice. Horses don't come out of the womb already flexing and soft, at least not all of them and need to be taught. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 5293
| merdth6 - 2017-04-25 12:27 PM
Ok guys thanks for the advice,but this horse is not sore. I've had her looked at and teeth are done. She is still learning and the person that broke her out did not teach her how to be soft correctly. This horse is still new and learning. She is not sore and no teeth issues. I have already got her flexing better than when I first bought her but I need more advice. Horses don't come out of the womb already flexing and soft, at least not all of them and need to be taught.
Your so right, and not all humans are built the same so why would we expect ALL HORSES to be built the same, soft, and work a pattern the same. This is why I am a firm believer in guiding a horse to work in a style that fits them. I bought a colt that was started as a cutter. All hind end, not much bend in the front, wants to keep head low like your cutting a cow. I am not going to spend hours and hours and drill after drill making him bend his head back to my knee. No way. He likes to be a little stiff in the neck, thats fine. I will train him to be a push style ( Tons of whoa) and roll back pretty much. I love that style anyway and he will sure be happier doing it. | |
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Posts: 12842
| I do a lot of two tracking, counter arching, and moving off my leg. Heather Smith's book and Martha Josey's new book have drills to help you get control of the front end and hind end which helps you get control of the middle. Pull and release works well for me too. Pull and when they give the way you want release immediately. I takes a while, be patient. Sometimes longer with some.
Edited by streakysox 2017-04-25 3:03 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | FLITASTIC - 2017-04-25 2:54 PM merdth6 - 2017-04-25 12:27 PM Ok guys thanks for the advice,but this horse is not sore. I've had her looked at and teeth are done. She is still learning and the person that broke her out did not teach her how to be soft correctly. This horse is still new and learning. She is not sore and no teeth issues. I have already got her flexing better than when I first bought her but I need more advice. Horses don't come out of the womb already flexing and soft, at least not all of them and need to be taught. Your so right, and not all humans are built the same so why would we expect ALL HORSES to be built the same, soft, and work a pattern the same. This is why I am a firm believer in guiding a horse to work in a style that fits them. I bought a colt that was started as a cutter. All hind end, not much bend in the front, wants to keep head low like your cutting a cow. I am not going to spend hours and hours and drill after drill making him bend his head back to my knee. No way. He likes to be a little stiff in the neck, thats fine. I will train him to be a push style ( Tons of whoa ) and roll back pretty much. I love that style anyway and he will sure be happier doing it.
I agree with you about every horse having their own personality. This horse is going to be push style and that's fine, but she needs to refine a little on being soft. I don't expect her to be a rubber band and actually I prefer them not to be over flexible. She just needs work to come off of pressure and give. I think someone has pulled on her too much and not let her learn how to do it on her own. Instead they just forced it! She had several months of rein training. She is Miss N cash and a daughter of Fuel Charger. This will be my first running bred horse. My others have only been all cow. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| merdth6 - 2017-04-25 1:34 PM
I have a 5 yr old that I bought a month ago. She is very nice and has a great temperment. She is lightly patterned on barrels and I wanted to possibly furturity her this year. Couple things I need to work on is making her soft. She doesn't bend very well and very stiff in her face. Will stick her nose out. I have been working flexing with a halter and lead rope and I ride her in a oring and I've been working on flexing with that, but she is so stiff and fights me. Sometimes she tosses her head and I don't want that to be a problem on the pattern. I have had her teeth checked and done. No pain issues. She is just a pushy type horse.
Have you tried a 3 piece mouth piece? I have found that these often work better than the traditional 2 piece.
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | go to the roundpen and bit her up, side to side, get her to push up into her face. Lots of moving her hips, moving laterally both directions, counterarcing, bending flexing, flexing adn staying soft while you move the hip, etc.
I'd also check for ulcers. Two summers ago my horse literally threw his head in the air, was stiff as a board, bracey, and took off with me during slow work. I thought it was hocks or stifles because he had some issues with that in the past. But the vet couldn't find anything. Xrays looked good and he had been injected. I mentioned this behavior to someone and they recommended treating him for ulcers. So I did, as well as changed his feed program completely, and within a couple rides I had a soft willing horse again. You wouldn't believe the awful things they'll do when their guts hurt.
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Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2017-04-25 3:25 PM go to the roundpen and bit her up, side to side, get her to push up into her face. Lots of moving her hips, moving laterally both directions, counterarcing, bending flexing, flexing adn staying soft while you move the hip, etc.
I'd also check for ulcers. Two summers ago my horse literally threw his head in the air, was stiff as a board, bracey, and took off with me during slow work. I thought it was hocks or stifles because he had some issues with that in the past. But the vet couldn't find anything. Xrays looked good and he had been injected. I mentioned this behavior to someone and they recommended treating him for ulcers. So I did, as well as changed his feed program completely, and within a couple rides I had a soft willing horse again. You wouldn't believe the awful things they'll do when their guts hurt.
In the round pen you want me to bit her up with me on her back? She is super calm horse actually lazy...LOL I do have her on a stomach supplement as I have dealt with ulcers lots in the past, so that base should be covered. She is just lazy and likes to lean on pressure. She's not an over reactive horse, with the mentality of make me. She kinda walked over her previous owner and I have also been working on some ground manners. Like you can't stand on top of me...LOL | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1094
Location: Idahome | merdth6 - 2017-04-25 2:33 PM WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2017-04-25 3:25 PM go to the roundpen and bit her up, side to side, get her to push up into her face. Lots of moving her hips, moving laterally both directions, counterarcing, bending flexing, flexing adn staying soft while you move the hip, etc.
I'd also check for ulcers. Two summers ago my horse literally threw his head in the air, was stiff as a board, bracey, and took off with me during slow work. I thought it was hocks or stifles because he had some issues with that in the past. But the vet couldn't find anything. Xrays looked good and he had been injected. I mentioned this behavior to someone and they recommended treating him for ulcers. So I did, as well as changed his feed program completely, and within a couple rides I had a soft willing horse again. You wouldn't believe the awful things they'll do when their guts hurt.
In the round pen you want me to bit her up with me on her back? She is super calm horse actually lazy...LOL I do have her on a stomach supplement as I have dealt with ulcers lots in the past, so that base should be covered. She is just lazy and likes to lean on pressure. She's not an over reactive horse, with the mentality of make me. She kinda walked over her previous owner and I have also been working on some ground manners. Like you can't stand on top of me...LOL
I think this should help answer your question. I have a horse similar to this. Has always been and always will be stiff. He is not sore and his teeth are fine, this is just him. I have learned to ride him that way and we get along great. With that, he knows that if he doesn't move when I ask he is getting a little spur or over and under. IMO, the stiffness doesn't sound like the problem. It sounds like she just isn't respectful of you and what you are asking. I am not saying to beat this horse, but sometimes a good spanking to wake them up will get them moving off of the pressure. | |
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Expert
Posts: 2335
Location: IL | KylaKris - 2017-04-25 4:25 PM
merdth6 - 2017-04-25 2:33 PM WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2017-04-25 3:25 PM go to the roundpen and bit her up, side to side, get her to push up into her face. Lots of moving her hips, moving laterally both directions, counterarcing, bending flexing, flexing adn staying soft while you move the hip, etc.
I'd also check for ulcers. Two summers ago my horse literally threw his head in the air, was stiff as a board, bracey, and took off with me during slow work. I thought it was hocks or stifles because he had some issues with that in the past. But the vet couldn't find anything. Xrays looked good and he had been injected. I mentioned this behavior to someone and they recommended treating him for ulcers. So I did, as well as changed his feed program completely, and within a couple rides I had a soft willing horse again. You wouldn't believe the awful things they'll do when their guts hurt.
In the round pen you want me to bit her up with me on her back? She is super calm horse actually lazy...LOL I do have her on a stomach supplement as I have dealt with ulcers lots in the past, so that base should be covered. She is just lazy and likes to lean on pressure. She's not an over reactive horse, with the mentality of make me. She kinda walked over her previous owner and I have also been working on some ground manners. Like you can't stand on top of me...LOL
I do agree. You explained her to a T! She was raised that way, and I know I won't get her to be super flexible but I know she can be better. I have been doing some round pen work and lounge line. Like I said she is getting better, I just think the person that trained her yanked a lot. I am going to start riding her with some spurs, I have just been riding her without and I haven't forced anything just making her realize to give to pressure. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | I had one of these two years ago. My solution was to got to the round pen and spend some time on the basics. That moved along pretty quickly. Ray Hunt used to have a exercise that he called walking a snake trail. That put more flexibility in through the shoulders and neck to the poll. An old friend used to say that when a horse puts it's nose in the air that his brains go out his ass. I have found that to be true.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 364
| winwillows - 2017-04-25 4:59 PM
I had one of these two years ago. My solution was to got to the round pen and spend some time on the basics. That moved along pretty quickly. Ray Hunt used to have a exercise that he called walking a snake trail. That put more flexibility in through the shoulders and neck to the poll. An old friend used to say that when a horse puts it's nose in the air that his brains go out his ass. I have found that to be true.
^^This^^
Winwillows, could you explain the 'Snake Trail' exercise? One of the best exercises I've done is the Les Vogt 'Cloverleaf'. It involves a great deal of counter cantering. If a horse can do that one easily, they're feeling pretty darn broke. | |
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  Sock eating dog owner
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Location: Where the pavement ends and the West begins Utah | surgical tubing can be found on Ebay. make a set of side reins and get to trail riding her in them daily. it will apply even pressure at all times . Your horse can even "root" in them. the best part is they get tired of it and will give to get some relief. that is where the magic begins. When your horse is tired and more nose to the ground than giving take off and continue and asking for that give into your hands. | |
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 Expert
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Location: bring on the heat, NV | Ill repeat what others are saying... break her loose in her shoulders hips ribs and i think the rooting will go away.... Otherwise she can just brace and push from there like tugging on a mountain. Try to make your hands like smoke when she pulls on ya. Bump her no pulling back.. Takes two to pull ;) I do bit mine up thats a naturally stiffer horse to both sides with a little bend with the inside rein and ask for a little nose with the outside rein. Couple different ways to tie them. A 3 piece mouth snaffle may also do the trick and might be worth later once she is broker and seasoned trying a chain mouth piece maybe with a dog bone helps give a little lift to the those shoulders... | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 966
Location: Loco,Ok | What does the horse move like loose in a big pen. Very few today with way they are bred should be stiff. If horse has no problem running and turning stop and all loose. Then it's the rider. Your body positions can make one stiff or flexible. Most all pull to much too long and squeeze with legs to hold on. Push and pull at same time. And will not use feet correctly.A horse with bend off of your foot. The more you pull they will push,root their head and be in front of the bit. High headed from being pulled on. Stirrup to long,head shoulder back arms Do you many times feel like your behind the horse in run. Feels like the horse is dragging you. Body positions can change that. Your horse will become more flexible. And it seems what happens is most will add more head gear. Majority of those horses are extremely light and scared. Trapped feel. Because a horse is an animal of flight. When you scare,hurt,surprise them,which does confuse them they run. The ones we get here I take all trap off and go back lighter. A horse is a prey animal when you put them in a position they feel trapped they will flee. That's from my experience of 40 years. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
Location: on the fine line between insanity and geniusness | Always remember when you're riding her in a snaffle especially, )horses learn from the RELEASE of pressure. The second she gets soft and comes to your hand LET HER GO. that's why bitting her up will work because she has the opportunity to figure out on her own how to carry her body to release that pressure. So many people think PULL PULL PULL when they want one soft, in that instance- you don't ever reward them for doing what you ask. I used to think draw reins were the answer for everything, until I started watching my fiancé ride colts. His are like butter!! You can move any part of their body with a finger. I then realized the error of my ways before and started soaking up what he did like a sponge. It takes time and the patience of Job, but she will figure out when you pick her up to come into your hands.
Edited by Ashley Lynn 2017-04-26 7:51 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 217
| I have two horses off the track, a Standardbred and a Quarter Horse. I taught both of them to flex while standing, move their hindquarters, and move their shoulders separate. The QH is more flexible than the STB when it came to these exercises.
The STB was far easier to train because she is a very reactive horse. I taught her to drop her head on the ground and once she figured out how to do it with me on her back, she softened right up. I also had to be more exaggerated and think about "opening up my body" to get her to understand how to move her body and relax.
The QH on the other hand sounds like yours. She had a bad case of ulcers, but those are clearing up. She is very laid back and lazy until she gets to lope the pattern or breeze. It has taken a lot longer to teach her to drop her head on the ground and she is finally getting it under saddle. I tried the Five Bit on her last night with a thin twist mouth and that is the softest she has ever felt. Only other two she is alright in is an A Bit, and a Myler with a higher port. I've tried o-rings, hackamores, chain mouth pieces, and she became a dolphin flipping her nose.
Does your mare have a thicker tongue or low palate? Try a different mouth piece?
Sorry for the book | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | FLITASTIC - 2017-04-25 2:54 PM
merdth6 - 2017-04-25 12:27 PM
Ok guys thanks for the advice,but this horse is not sore. I've had her looked at and teeth are done. She is still learning and the person that broke her out did not teach her how to be soft correctly. This horse is still new and learning. She is not sore and no teeth issues. I have already got her flexing better than when I first bought her but I need more advice. Horses don't come out of the womb already flexing and soft, at least not all of them and need to be taught.
Your so right, and not all humans are built the same so why would we expect ALL HORSES to be built the same, soft, and work a pattern the same. This is why I am a firm believer in guiding a horse to work in a style that fits them. I bought a colt that was started as a cutter. All hind end, not much bend in the front, wants to keep head low like your cutting a cow. I am not going to spend hours and hours and drill after drill making him bend his head back to my knee. No way. He likes to be a little stiff in the neck, thats fine. I will train him to be a push style ( Tons of whoa ) and roll back pretty much. I love that style anyway and he will sure be happier doing it.
This!!!
I have a cutting bred gelding whom rides exactly like yours, head to the ground when exercising, all hind end, very snappy and straight/square as a board. Perfectly capable of bending, flexing, soft in poll but chooses this style and I'm not going to fight it. Problem is, it's not my favorite style and I'm not sure ill ever get with him. He's soooo turny, I ride to the fence in slow work, so if you want him let know lol! But seriously i agree, you cannot change a horses natural style. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| I have a tough mare that I just got that is nervous and stiff- just found out that draw reins are her friend! We've been through all the basics breaking the body parts loose on the ground and in saddle, but she likes the soft pressure of the draw reins. Its a tool, not a crutch, so she won't stay in them forever obviously, but for now they are the way to go! ETA: The pressure should come from your legs driving into the draw reins, not from your hands. The quicker you release when you feel them soften the softer they will get!
I had a friend that had a mare that was wicked fast but you could not touch her face. It took her a couple years, but she's finished 1D horse and def rollback style- my friend doesn't touch her face with inside rein at all. Just check and some outside rein to finish her turn. Not always pretty but she works!
Edited by lopnaround 2017-04-26 4:03 PM
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | I'm training one that didn't want his head handled at all when I got him. You touched him, and he would either shake it or jerk it down between his knees and try to stop. Loping a circle, he would lead with his shoulder with his head to the outside--beyond stiff. He just didn't know because no one ever taught him.
First thing I did was get his body right. He's fairly sensitive, so that was easy. I got him moving forward from the rear, bending around my inside leg. The head part was tricky, it took lots of soft give and take with properly timed releases, kicking his butt between his shoulder blades and making him MOVE when he tried to fight. He will still try me just a tad every once in a while when I pressure him or if he's really fresh, but he doesn't ride like the same horse at all.
Gimmicks or bits won't fix this, but good horsemanship and saddle time will.  | |
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Help with a stiff horse