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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
  
Location: California | How many have a laminitic horse that has foundered? What do you feed now and how do you manage your horse? Anybody ever have one that didn't really show any signs and never came up lame?
My gelding will technically be 5yrs old in June. I took him to the vet simply for a check over and x-rays of his front feet to have a baseline of his feet and to see how we needed to shoe him because the previous farrier was not helping his run forward, no heel feet. This gelding has NEVER acted sore or acted like he was in any pain. To my great shock he was diagnosed with laminitis and the vet said he foundered 4-5 months ago. I have absolutely no clue what caused it. I eliminated all high sugar/starch feeds and had switched to alfalfa pellets and Renew Gold in 2015 to avoid such issues. Started feeding THE Muscle Mass a while ago. His whole life he has been turned out with some sort of grazing and grass round bales when needed. I haven't really been riding much due to my back issues.
Since I don't know the direct cause coming up with a plan has been hard. I know he will be getting a pen built to keep him off of the grass, though if it's not metabolic do I have to do that? Idk, I feel lost. I do plan on talking to the vet more but I'm the type of person that researches relentlessly and likes hearing other first hand experiences as well. |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
 
Location: Arkansas | Hoping someone gives you good answers soon for Ace  |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | One of ours foundered suddenly, but my trimmer says there is such thing as "cold weather induced founder", which in his case actually makes sense. I thought he foundered before I had even heard of that. He has lived on a dry lot for the past several years and always has only gotten beet pulp, alfalfa pellets and Timothy hay. This past November, the very week we experienced a sudden drop in temperature, he started moving like he was sore. He's 23 so at first I thought the cold weather was making him stiff, although he currently doesn't have any signs of arthritis. Within two days he was absolutely dead lame on all four feet. The horses live at my parents but I feed I every night and I immediately texted my dad and said if I didn't know any better I would say Scooter was foundering.
The lady who trims my horses specializes in founder/laminitis. She told me right away he foundered and that he probably has cushings.
I know it's not exactly like your story because this horse is older and was lame, but it's still bizarre to me that he foundered off basically nothing. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Strange time of year for laminitis. There are a number of possible causes. Pm sent.
Win |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | livexlovexrodeo - 2017-05-09 10:48 PM
One of ours foundered suddenly, but my trimmer says there is such thing as "cold weather induced founder", which in his case actually makes sense. I thought he foundered before I had even heard of that. He has lived on a dry lot for the past several years and always has only gotten beet pulp, alfalfa pellets and Timothy hay. This past November, the very week we experienced a sudden drop in temperature, he started moving like he was sore. He's 23 so at first I thought the cold weather was making him stiff, although he currently doesn't have any signs of arthritis. Within two days he was absolutely dead lame on all four feet. The horses live at my parents but I feed I every night and I immediately texted my dad and said if I didn't know any better I would say Scooter was foundering.
The lady who trims my horses specializes in founder/laminitis. She told me right away he foundered and that he probably has cushings.
I know it's not exactly like your story because this horse is older and was lame, but it's still bizarre to me that he foundered off basically nothing.
It would have been December/January according to the vet so thats possible I guess... I'm in Texas so I don't know if it quite got cold enough here or not... It's just so frustrating trying to figure out what to do now when I don't know the cause :( It's also highly frustrating when everything I have ever done with this horse has always been with his long term soundness in mind. Honestly it feels like a cruel joke. Hopefully I can get it all figured out and him all straightened out. He's still not lame, he currently runs all over the pasture wreaking havoc like the giant awkward kid he is! |
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 Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | Personally I find it odd that he foundered and has laminitis both, but hope you get him some comfort soon and get it figured out. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | I have a young horse with EMS that has had some laminitis. Odds on it was the grass. Getting into the winter, sugar levels in grass go up really high. If your horse is sensitive or insulin resistant, bang they get laminitis or founder. Yup, get him off grass except occasionally with a grazing muzzle. I feed a high fat low NSC grain, Purina's Low Carb Wellsolve. My girl does well on that, measure hay and some turnout with a grazing muzzle. Regular exercise (so long as they are not super sore) is also very important. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| I posted on another page about EMS. Just in case Id have her checked for insulin resistance contributing to equine metabolic syndrome... this is the post I wrote on the other board. I have a 13 year old thoroughbred with EMS and cushings. She was having unexplainable laminitis in one front foot. She kept bruising and abscessing. FInally we took her in for x rays and she had a slight amount of rotation. After a summer of trying to manage and correct it we decided to do a MRI. We thought at first it was mechanical founder because she stomped and pawed a lot. She was also not to over weight. Well at the MRI appointment they checked her for insulin resistance and cushings just in case. It came back she is positive for both EMS (insulin resistance) and cushings. She is on pergolide for the cushings and a supplement for EMS with chromium and magnesium. But most importantly a low startch/ sugar diet. She also can't be on pasture. So far she is doing great. The rehab on her feet has been going good and her insulin has leveled out. There has to be a cause for everything... you'd hope at least. Good luck. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| There are many things that can cause founder.
It sounds like yours was founder due to long toes. This does happen more then you think.
You may not have to remove starches, or pull off of grass. Some horses can tolerate the sugar.
I have one who foundered from a gi bleed, she can handle sugar. This one had the coffin bone come through the sole.
I have another one who foundered from septic laminitis she can't handle grass but can handle grain. This one only rotated 2 degrees.
Concussion founder can also happen if they are run constantly on hard ground
Horses can also founder from too much water intake
As I said septic laminitis, this generally happens if they are in mud or wet land, mine developed it on grass that when I walked through it my shoes would be soaked it was a horrible rainy year,
I would say pull the toe back , trim to the X-ray, don't go past 4 weeks for the farrier, and kick the horse on the grass then check for heat and pedal pulses in the feet. If there is no pedal pulse he will be fine |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | Thank you everyone!
I will be having him checked for metabolic issues but I really don't feel that's the cause. Though at this point, I wouldn't be shocked. He's always been a harder keeper so he's always been lean. He plays constantly out in the pasture so the thing that makes the most sense in the long toes in combination with the harder ground. The only way to pull him off of grass is to build him a pen and that restricts his movement and will most likely stress him out or depress him. He's a social butterfly. However if it's for he's well being I will most certainly do it! The farrier had done amazing work with my mare's feet, I just don't understand why we couldn't get on the same page with my gelding!
I know the biggest, most effective, way to handle and manage laminitis is to treat the cause. Without being 100% sure on the cause I just feel lost. All the research I've been doing is confusing me further. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | mtcanchazer - 2017-05-10 9:34 AM
Personally I find it odd that he foundered and has laminitis both, but hope you get him some comfort soon and get it figured out.
Laminitis and founder go hand in hand. When the laminae are inflamed, the horse is said to have laminitis. When the bond between the bone and the hoof wall is damaged severely the bone starts to move inside of the hoof capsule, it moves downward or sinks. When that happens, the horse is said to have foundered. Founder is an old nautical term used to describe a sinking ship. |
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 Peat and Repeat
Posts: 2773
Location: IN MY OWN LITTLE WORLD AT LEAST THEY KNOW ME HERE | Founder can happen anytime.
Grass, heat stroke, stress, pregnancy, weather changes, environment change, sickness, the list just goes on n on n on.....
One of the main things is to keep weight under control.
If he has a heavy created neck?
He's a good candidate.
Had my mare checked for thyroid when she foundered.
She was on meds for that.
She low startch feed?
She hated and I was allergic to the stuff lol yep allergic
So
I have done alotnof research and put her on the following---
1/2 scoop rolled oats
1 cup equipride
1 oz cocosoya oil
Big handful of soaked alfalfa cubes
Once a day of feed****
And I give about 1/4 a bale of coastal hay 2x day.
She is in a huge dry lot.
Very little fresh grass
* I live in east Texas on a coastal meadow and we raise our own hay.
Don't want any "oh you should feed blah blah blah from anyone as
She is doing fantastic and is trim and shining like satin.
She did abscess after initial founder happened.
We put her in soft ride boots and them a reg shoe w a pad w frog pad.
I have been riding her for some time.
Founder is and has always been my hearts greatest fear...
I've had 3 n my life time.
Heat stroke then founder.
2 grass founders.
Dad had 2 weather change founders.
Best of luck to you as I've walked your path.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | He's always been a harder keeper so he's never been over weight. I switched to alfalfa pellets and renew gold with THE Muscle Mass quite a while ago to get away from all the high sugar/starch feeds and be more natural. I literally tried to take every single precaution to avoid issues with this guy after all the vet bills with his mom. Unfortunately it wasn't enough. |
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia |
My gelding was on/off lame for a few months. He is a bit older so he doesnt get used much unless my main horse is out. At the time we thought maybe it was just a string of abscesses so we figured we would just let it run the course. Well we decided since we hadnt seen any blowouts that a vet trip was in order. We had x-rays done and it was determined he had a mild case of laminitis that would get worse if we didnt make changes. Basically he was on the verge of foundering. He was overweight so that was a factor for sure. We completely removed grain from his diet. We kept him in the stall during the day and turned him out at night. Grass is a HUGE factor for these horses. Its pure sugar, especially grass that is overgrazed. During the day, the grass is worse because of the process it goes through with the sunlight. So thats a big no no. We gave him hay during the day while he was put up. It had to be soaked in water for about 30 minutes prior to giving it to him to get rid of the sugar in the hay. Over the course of a couple months he dropped his excess weight. At this point he appeared sound so we were able to turn him out again but he had to wear a grazing muzzle during the day and kept soft-rides on 24/7. This all happened in Sep 2015. By July 2016 he was 100% sound and riding again. |
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Total Germophobe
Posts: 6443
Location: Montana | Serenity06 - 2017-05-10 10:23 PM mtcanchazer - 2017-05-10 9:34 AM Personally I find it odd that he foundered and has laminitis both, but hope you get him some comfort soon and get it figured out. Laminitis and founder go hand in hand. When the laminae are inflamed, the horse is said to have laminitis. When the bond between the bone and the hoof wall is damaged severely the bone starts to move inside of the hoof capsule, it moves downward or sinks. When that happens, the horse is said to have foundered. Founder is an old nautical term used to describe a sinking ship.
Yes, I know, as when my horses are on good grass, I keep an eye out for both as they are very easy keepers. But like Barbaro, who won the Kentucky Derby in 2006, who acquired laminitis while trying to recover from fracturing his leg in the Preakness, and he eventually had to be put down because he was basically 2 legged lame. But according to what I read he didn't founder. I suppose if the laminae is damaged enough, your colt could have foundered as well as the laminae is no longer supporting the coffin bone. Whatever the case may be, I hope he gets relief. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | mtcanchazer - 2017-05-14 10:55 AM
Serenity06 - 2017-05-10 10:23 PM mtcanchazer - 2017-05-10 9:34 AM Personally I find it odd that he foundered and has laminitis both, but hope you get him some comfort soon and get it figured out. Laminitis and founder go hand in hand. When the laminae are inflamed, the horse is said to have laminitis. When the bond between the bone and the hoof wall is damaged severely the bone starts to move inside of the hoof capsule, it moves downward or sinks. When that happens, the horse is said to have foundered. Founder is an old nautical term used to describe a sinking ship.
Ah ok I understand now. My farrier said the bottoms of his feet really don't show any signs of founder. All I know is Ace was miserable while we pulled shoes to put pads on and put shoes back on. I felt horrible making him go through it, but it will help him in the long run. My mare goes back to the vet Wednesday so Ace will tag along so the vet can take a quick look at him again. |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| cheryl makofka - 2017-05-10 10:54 PM There are many things that can cause founder. It sounds like yours was founder due to long toes. This does happen more then you think. You may not have to remove starches, or pull off of grass. Some horses can tolerate the sugar. I have one who foundered from a gi bleed, she can handle sugar. This one had the coffin bone come through the sole. I have another one who foundered from septic laminitis she can't handle grass but can handle grain. This one only rotated 2 degrees. Concussion founder can also happen if they are run constantly on hard ground Horses can also founder from too much water intake As I said septic laminitis, this generally happens if they are in mud or wet land, mine developed it on grass that when I walked through it my shoes would be soaked it was a horrible rainy year, I would say pull the toe back , trim to the X-ray, don't go past 4 weeks for the farrier, and kick the horse on the grass then check for heat and pedal pulses in the feet. If there is no pedal pulse he will be fine
I just got severely educated on this. Finally found a vet/farrier combo that would shoe this mare correctly. I thought she was insulin resistant, but turns out was just long toes (last farrier was trying to keep her from pulling shoes). Still have her on Thyro-L and Isoxuprine tho just in case. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | lopnaround - 2017-05-15 3:31 PM
cheryl makofka - 2017-05-10 10:54 PM There are many things that can cause founder. It sounds like yours was founder due to long toes. This does happen more then you think. You may not have to remove starches, or pull off of grass. Some horses can tolerate the sugar. I have one who foundered from a gi bleed, she can handle sugar. This one had the coffin bone come through the sole. I have another one who foundered from septic laminitis she can't handle grass but can handle grain. This one only rotated 2 degrees. Concussion founder can also happen if they are run constantly on hard ground Horses can also founder from too much water intake As I said septic laminitis, this generally happens if they are in mud or wet land, mine developed it on grass that when I walked through it my shoes would be soaked it was a horrible rainy year, I would say pull the toe back , trim to the X-ray, don't go past 4 weeks for the farrier, and kick the horse on the grass then check for heat and pedal pulses in the feet. If there is no pedal pulse he will be fine
I just got severely educated on this. Finally found a vet/farrier combo that would shoe this mare correctly. I thought she was insulin resistant, but turns out was just long toes (last farrier was trying to keep her from pulling shoes). Still have her on Thyro-L and Isoxuprine tho just in case.
This is seriously what I'm leaning towards. My last farrier wasn't listening to me at all with this guy. I now have one that I think will majorly help both this guy and my mare. I do still plan on getting him tested for metabolic issues just to be on the safe side. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Serenity06 - 2017-05-15 9:59 PM
lopnaround - 2017-05-15 3:31 PM
cheryl makofka - 2017-05-10 10:54 PM There are many things that can cause founder. It sounds like yours was founder due to long toes. This does happen more then you think. You may not have to remove starches, or pull off of grass. Some horses can tolerate the sugar. I have one who foundered from a gi bleed, she can handle sugar. This one had the coffin bone come through the sole. I have another one who foundered from septic laminitis she can't handle grass but can handle grain. This one only rotated 2 degrees. Concussion founder can also happen if they are run constantly on hard ground Horses can also founder from too much water intake As I said septic laminitis, this generally happens if they are in mud or wet land, mine developed it on grass that when I walked through it my shoes would be soaked it was a horrible rainy year, I would say pull the toe back , trim to the X-ray, don't go past 4 weeks for the farrier, and kick the horse on the grass then check for heat and pedal pulses in the feet. If there is no pedal pulse he will be fine
I just got severely educated on this. Finally found a vet/farrier combo that would shoe this mare correctly. I thought she was insulin resistant, but turns out was just long toes (last farrier was trying to keep her from pulling shoes). Still have her on Thyro-L and Isoxuprine tho just in case.
This is seriously what I'm leaning towards. My last farrier wasn't listening to me at all with this guy. I now have one that I think will majorly help both this guy and my mare. I do still plan on getting him tested for metabolic issues just to be on the safe side.
This is why I went barefoot. It took 12 months for my horses to convert, now in year 2 for some, the others have never had shoes, and my farrier said their feet look the best they ever have.
I use hoof boots when needed, even rode in the mountains with hoof boots.
Biggest thing is to trim every 4 weeks don't go any longer. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1165
Location: California | cheryl makofka - 2017-05-15 9:47 PM
Serenity06 - 2017-05-15 9:59 PM
lopnaround - 2017-05-15 3:31 PM
cheryl makofka - 2017-05-10 10:54 PM There are many things that can cause founder. It sounds like yours was founder due to long toes. This does happen more then you think. You may not have to remove starches, or pull off of grass. Some horses can tolerate the sugar. I have one who foundered from a gi bleed, she can handle sugar. This one had the coffin bone come through the sole. I have another one who foundered from septic laminitis she can't handle grass but can handle grain. This one only rotated 2 degrees. Concussion founder can also happen if they are run constantly on hard ground Horses can also founder from too much water intake As I said septic laminitis, this generally happens if they are in mud or wet land, mine developed it on grass that when I walked through it my shoes would be soaked it was a horrible rainy year, I would say pull the toe back , trim to the X-ray, don't go past 4 weeks for the farrier, and kick the horse on the grass then check for heat and pedal pulses in the feet. If there is no pedal pulse he will be fine
I just got severely educated on this. Finally found a vet/farrier combo that would shoe this mare correctly. I thought she was insulin resistant, but turns out was just long toes (last farrier was trying to keep her from pulling shoes). Still have her on Thyro-L and Isoxuprine tho just in case.
This is seriously what I'm leaning towards. My last farrier wasn't listening to me at all with this guy. I now have one that I think will majorly help both this guy and my mare. I do still plan on getting him tested for metabolic issues just to be on the safe side.
This is why I went barefoot. It took 12 months for my horses to convert, now in year 2 for some, the others have never had shoes, and my farrier said their feet look the best they ever have.
I use hoof boots when needed, even rode in the mountains with hoof boots.
Biggest thing is to trim every 4 weeks don't go any longer.
Farriers failed us even when he was barefoot. I have been through way too many farriers tryING to find a good one. This guy has always been tender footed so shoes are a bit necessary. He's also pretty flat fotoed. If this farrier can correct his feet and it's possible for him to be barefoot again that is my preferance. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 615
Location: Wyoming | I have an 18 yr old mare and her now 6 year old baby. Both are prone to episodes of laminitis during stressful situations or when on processed feeds. I feed good alfalfa and renew gold. I have also found that adding a magnesium supplement helps tremendously, I use mag-restore |
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Laminitis and founder experiences...