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Location: Cocoa, Florida | Is it just me or do others feel like a lot of people are "over-supplemting" their horses here lately? It just seems like when something new and big comes out that some pro rodeo Girl is using when they win that everyone just jumps on the bandwagon. I'm not saying it's a bad thing and don't use or try new supplements but I know just like humans you have to have a balance and a lot of supplements have the same vitamins and minerals that are in feeds they're already feeding. I feel like people should do their research before adding aupplemts to their horses feed program, know exactly what they're using, how it works and if it's necessary. I see a lot of products with ingriedients that horses can't properly digest but because it's a big name product they use it. I'm No nutritionist but I believe in keeping it simple, and try to research as much as possible! |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Yep, but it's their money if they want to spend it.
I suppose in extreme circumstances you could do damage to a horse by over supplementing, but I think it'd be tough (could be wrong though).
I've tried several, stopped most, had one horse who just came out of winter looking tough. Starting him on a supplement at the suggesting of my chiropractor and now the whole barn gets it. Finally feel like I'm spending my money on something that works. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| It's better than not feeding enough or starving one. I have enough to think about besides wondering if some one is over supplementing. |
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 Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| Easy to do! I cut down and am trying to focus on the best forage I can get my hands on! |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| I remember telling my ex once that I needed to feed more grain to add all the supplements to - yes, I think you can WAY over do it. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | GLP - 2017-06-01 10:33 PM
It's better than not feeding enough or starving one. I have enough to think about besides wondering if some one is over supplementing.
I agree it's obviously better then starving one but that's not relevant to my post, just a topic of discussion |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I feel a lot of people over supplement but its not worth it to me to get worked up over it.
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| I amazes me, too, but the things that people actually feed amazes me. I keep wondering where folks get the information and recommendations to feed certain things. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I also agree and I sell supplements. The thing people need to figure out is if the supplements they are giving are complete-have all the vitamins and minerals etc. And if it is, dont give a bunch of others with it as well. They will just pass the extra through their system, but its a waste. I love THE because you can customize and eliminate over supplementing. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: Georgia | want2chase3 - 2017-06-02 12:24 AM
Easy to do! I cut down and am trying to focus on the best forage I can get my hands on!
I did this too! I just woke up one day and realized if I put my money into better hay and feed I would have to supplement for everything! |
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Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| streakysox - 2017-06-02 7:55 AM
I amazes me, too, but the things that people actually feed amazes me. I keep wondering where folks get the information and recommendations to feed certain things.
And the $$$$ to pay for it! I don't feed near the recommended amounts of feed (grain) per what the feed sack says, I typically try to add at least a digestion aid, like forco or fastrack... then I got sucked into oils, then hoof, then calming and hair coat lol! I got to looking around my feed room and had waaaaay too many containers. I made the decision to just go to the platinum performance since it addresses all "my" concerns. My feed program is pretty much based on good forage, alfalfa and maybe a lb or 2 of grain plus a scoop of platinum. Easy peasy! I don't feel like a mad scientist mixing feed anymore lol! |
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | Those who have been to one of my talks have heard this. " we feed horses into trouble, then try to supplement them out of it " |
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Red Bull Agressive
Posts: 5981
Location: North Dakota | Mhmm. And I think it's a good thing to bring up! Maybe some people think it's trivial but if it can help out some horses and owners, starting the conversation is not a bad thing! I spent hours and days trying to create the perfect diet for my horse and all his issues. Allergies, inflammation from KS, lacking muscle, poor hooves...after nearly 2 years of struggling and spending $$$$ I turned him out on a huge pasture, no grain or supplements, pulled his shoes (well, he took the liberty of doing that himself....) and now he's doing better than ever before. The simpler, the more natural, the better. |
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | cavyrunsbarrels - 2017-06-02 10:54 AM
Mhmm. And I think it's a good thing to bring up! Maybe some people think it's trivial but if it can help out some horses and owners, starting the conversation is not a bad thing! I spent hours and days trying to create the perfect diet for my horse and all his issues. Allergies, inflammation from KS, lacking muscle, poor hooves...after nearly 2 years of struggling and spending $$$$ I turned him out on a huge pasture, no grain or supplements, pulled his shoes (well, he took the liberty of doing that himself....) and now he's doing better than ever before. The simpler, the more natural, the better.
I agree with this, less is more, back to basics. Yes we have come a long way with vitamins and minerals but a lot of complete feeds and good hay have all that they need! I got sucked into a lot of the new supplements and after spending all the $$$ and seeing no difference I researched what was in them and realized I was giving them to much of the same things! |
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Expert
Posts: 1207
| I think I have come to that point. But I'm not sure which way to turn and it seems out of the 3 my older retired gelding is better than the other two that just seem to have these chronic problems and they do not get any grain just alfalfa/timothy pellets and Omnis cubes. |
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | When feeding 2 or more supplements, it's very easy to over-supplement. Some people think the excess just passes through into the manure. But that's not true. The water soluble vitamins will pass through without issues usually. But the oil soluble vitamins and minerals do NOT pass through. They stay in the system and WILL cause issues due to being out of balance with the rest of the vitamins and minerals. Just one example is selenium. Too much selenium causes many of the same symptoms that not enough selenium causes.
"Selenium Toxicity
A horse with a supplemental selenium intake in excess of 5 mg per day might suffer from selenium toxicity if his forage and feed already provide adequate selenium; the maximum tolerable level of selenium in a horse’s total diet is only 20 mg per day. As little as 50 mg per day total intake can result in mild signs of toxicity (loss of mane and tail hairs, horizontal hoof cracks). Animals consuming more than 1 gram per day--or those that are inadvertently overdosed with selenium even once--can develop acute selenium poisoning, which will rapidly cause death (as in the 2009 deaths of several polo ponies due to a medication error). Clinical signs of acute selenium poisoning include gait abnormalities, garlic breath odor, labored breathing, and muscle tremors. This poisoning can be life-threatening depending on the amount consumed. Overdoses can also be fatal for foals.
Chronic selenium toxicity, which is more common, is the result of long-term exposure to high levels of selenium for a period of weeks to months. Chronic toxicity can cause blindness, lameness, abdominal pain, excessive salivation, teeth grating, paralysis, respiratory failure, and death.
Toxic levels of selenium can damage the cells that form keratin (keratinocytes), which is the primary constituent that makes up hair and hooves. In affected horses, selenium replaces sulfur in the keratin molecule, which is what causes the clinical signs of chronic selenium toxicity including hair loss, horizontal hoof wall cracks, and even hoof sloughing in severe cases."
You can sign up for free access to articles on The Horse below.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/15982/selenium-a-balancing-act |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Let me start by saying, I feed and have fed alfalfa for decades and it's an essential part of my feeding program. However, alfalfa while being a VERY good feed for horses, is not balanced. It has too much calcium and not enough phosphorous. Grass hay/pasture grass and unfortified grain is, on the other hand, higher in phosphorous and lower in calcium. So I use alfalfa to balance the Cal:Phos ratio and bring the protein level up in the horses diet (growing/immature horses, mares, babies and my stallion need it). IF one is feeding alfalfa as the only forage, they need to add a supplement that brings the phosphorous levels up in the total ration.
Edited by OregonBR 2017-06-02 1:47 PM
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I totally agree with OregonBR.
Had a friend that had a horse with selenium toxicity.
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 I Want a "MAN"
Posts: 3610
Location: MD | I also think people over do therapies - Doing it unnecessarily and not using it for the proper reason. |
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Expert
Posts: 1207
| Oh forgot to add that they are all out on pasture 24/7. Grass is OK not lush but it is OK. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | CE's wrapn3 - 2017-06-02 2:18 PM
I also think people over do therapies - Doing it unnecessarily and not using it for the proper reason.
Therapies as in chiropractic work? I can see that, I don't think you can over massage one though and loosen up those tight muscles. |
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Expert
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Location: Cocoa, Florida | OregonBR - 2017-06-02 1:45 PM
Let me start by saying, I feed and have fed alfalfa for decades and it's an essential part of my feeding program. However, alfalfa while being a VERY good feed for horses, is not balanced. It has too much calcium and not enough phosphorous. Grass hay/pasture grass and unfortified grain is, on the other hand, higher in phosphorous and lower in calcium. So I use alfalfa to balance the Cal:Phos ratio and bring the protein level up in the horses diet (growing/immature horses, mares, babies and my stallion need it). IF one is feeding alfalfa as the only forage, they need to add a supplement that brings the phosphorous levels up in the total ration.
What about a mixed hay, I feed Timothy and alfalfa, it tends to have more Timothy in it though! |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph
Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able
to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins
A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A). |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | RnRJack - 2017-06-02 3:09 PM
OregonBR - 2017-06-02 1:45 PM
Let me start by saying, I feed and have fed alfalfa for decades and it's an essential part of my feeding program. However, alfalfa while being a VERY good feed for horses, is not balanced. It has too much calcium and not enough phosphorous. Grass hay/pasture grass and unfortified grain is, on the other hand, higher in phosphorous and lower in calcium. So I use alfalfa to balance the Cal:Phos ratio and bring the protein level up in the horses diet (growing/immature horses, mares, babies and my stallion need it). IF one is feeding alfalfa as the only forage, they need to add a supplement that brings the phosphorous levels up in the total ration.
What about a mixed hay, I feed Timothy and alfalfa, it tends to have more Timothy in it though!
Yes. I feed a mix of grass hay/pasture with a limited amount of alfalfa to bring the protein and calcium levels up. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | RnRJack - 2017-06-02 3:23 PM
So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph
Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able
to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins
A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A).
That's what I was referencing in another post I made on this feeding thread. |
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Expert
Posts: 1561
Location: North of where I want to be | I bought a little grade gelding from a girl in our barn(because she was literally driving him crazy) When she gave me the list of 7 supplements & Succeed he was on I about fell over. ALL but one was very heavily magnesium. When the vet calculated it out he was on about 25x more than what he needed and she was double dosing the Succeed because " well that would help the ulcers clear up faster"
I think good intention paired with a lack of knowledge/education is harmful. |
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Take a Picture
Posts: 12841
| RnRJack - 2017-06-02 5:23 PM
So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph
Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able
to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins
A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A).
In plain old English, fat soluble vitamins only need a tiny amount of fat to be absorbed. They are stored in the liver and fat while the water soluble vitamins are peed out. It is very difficult to get too many of the water soluble vitamins, vitamins B and C. Remember that kidneys and liver are the body's filters.
I often wonder about the death of Bling |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | streakysox - 2017-06-04 10:31 AM RnRJack - 2017-06-02 5:23 PM So I sighed up on Thehorse.com and started reading about vitamins and minerals - here it is, 3rd paragraph Fat-soluble vitamins As the name implies, these vitamins are only able to dissolve in fat, not water. Vitamins A, D, E, and K are fat-soluble and are absorbed from the intestinal tract with the assistance of small fat droplets. Unlike water-soluble vitamins, which are readily excreted in urine, fat-soluble vitamins can be stored in the body’s fatty tissues and in the liver. Thus, hypervitaminosis—a vita- min overdose—is possible and should be avoided by feeding only recommended amounts (particularly vitamin A). In plain old English, fat soluble vitamins only need a tiny amount of fat to be absorbed. They are stored in the liver and fat while the water soluble vitamins are peed out. It is very difficult to get too many of the water soluble vitamins, vitamins B and C. Remember that kidneys and liver are the body's filters. I often wonder about the death of Bling
She was a heavy heavy bleeder, someone that knows someone (so take this with a grain of salt) said she was having bleeding/lung issues pretty bad at the NFR. She obviously had a lot of heart to keep her winning ways, but I wonder if she would have lived longer had she been retired soon after and taken off lasix. Just a thought and not judging because it would be hard to not keep running a winner that was still trying so hard. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 509
| Oregon br what do you suggest I have a gelding who gets straight alfalfa he needs no feed he gets to fat, I ride him six days a week to keep him fit.i need to balance his cal phos.i feed my other horse renew gold my gelding is super fat so I cut the rg out |
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| Test your ration (hay, 'grain', etc) at http://equi-analytical.com/ then if needed, customize a supplement to balance it. THE is great for this or you can add single ingredients yourself.
I think hair analysis is beneficial to know where your horse is. Over supplementation is for sure a problem...take iron of example - it cancels the body's ability to absorb copper and zinc - amung many other severe issues and most horses get their daily requirement through hay/pasture and their water source. BTW - Iron is what gives (most) mineral blocks and himalayan salt it's reddish-pink hue.
Excess iron cancels the absorption of copper and zinc- even if there is an "adequate" amount of those minerals available. Excess iron has many effects, including predisposition to infection, a predisposition to arthritis and increased risk of tendon/ligament problems, liver disease and altered glucose metabolism, including insulin resistance and overt diabetes. Eleanor Kellon, VMD
Now see what a copper and zinc deficiency can cause...
Copper supports enzymes that form the strengthening cross-links between collagen and elastin molecules in connective tissue. Deficiencies lead to abnormalities in bone, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, and arterial walls among the most dramatic consequences. In horses, copper deficiency has been linked to uterine artery rupture in mares, a fatal complication of labor. Copper deficiency is known to cause developmental bone disease in foals. From research in other animals we also know that copper deficiency has adverse effects in hair quality. Although it hasn't been studied in horses, remember that the ingredients and growth mechanisms for hair and the hoof are virtually identical.
Zinc performs a host of functions in the body. Structures on proteins called zinc fingers allow them to bind to DNA. Zinc fingers also influence the folding and structure of proteins. In enzyme systems, zinc is essential for pigment formation, antioxidant function, transport of carbon dioxide in the blood, bone building and remodeling, insulin production and release among others. Eleanor Kellon, VMD
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | tin can - 2017-06-04 6:11 PM
Oregon br what do you suggest I have a gelding who gets straight alfalfa he needs no feed he gets to fat, I ride him six days a week to keep him fit.i need to balance his cal phos.i feed my other horse renew gold my gelding is super fat so I cut the rg out
There are supplement companies that have products that will balance your ration when you feed all alfalfa. Here's one. I've never used it. So this is not a personal endorsement. Simply trying to give you ways to find these products.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/proadvantage-diet-balancer...
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Expert
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Location: Willows, CA | OregonBR - 2017-06-06 12:46 PM
tin can - 2017-06-04 6:11 PM
Oregon br what do you suggest I have a gelding who gets straight alfalfa he needs no feed he gets to fat, I ride him six days a week to keep him fit.i need to balance his cal phos.i feed my other horse renew gold my gelding is super fat so I cut the rg out
There are supplement companies that have products that will balance your ration when you feed all alfalfa. Here's one. I've never used it. So this is not a personal endorsement. Simply trying to give you ways to find these products.
http://www.prognutrition.com/pn/products/proadvantage-diet-balancer...
That may be a fine feed, but, looking at the ingredient list and analysis I can't see what that product actually balances with alfalfa. For most people, the biggest concern with straight alfalfa diets is the cal/phos ratio. This formula is cal/phos neutral, so no help there. This is what is frustrating with the term "ration balancer". People assume that all the potential holes are filled when they read the term. There are some true "ration balancers" on the market. Most of those are protein, and mineral supplements aimed at supporting poor quality hay in areas where better roughage is simply not available. The feed industry has really jumped on the Ration balancer term in recent years as a new category. |
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Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| I remember using a "ration balancer " a long time ago, I used progressive grass balancer...I was less than pleased with the results and the amount of urine my horses were producing was insane, they were stalled. I believe it was 30% protein . |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | ProAdvantage® – Alfalfa Formula is a diet balancer concentrate containing sources of amino acids, vitamins, minerals, trace minerals and other nutrients. These nutrients are essential for healthy growth, development, reproduction and performance. ProAdvantage® – Alfalfa Formula should be fed to horses eating alfalfa hay.
That's what is says. I said I'd never used it. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | I see a lot of horse people these days doing the big alfalfa blocks free choice, more so then the coastle hay rolls, is this better for them
To have free choice alfalfa with the cal/phos ratios? |
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 Best of the Badlands
Location: You never know where I will show up...... | Nevertooold - 2017-06-02 1:59 PM I totally agree with OregonBR.
Had a friend that had a horse with selenium toxicity.
I can't feed any extra selenium to horses here. Some bagged feeds even contain more than I can feed. We are on the high end of normal as it is in this area. We have to test our hay, ect. And we have our mineral custom made with extra Copper & no Se added.
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | want2chase3 - 2017-06-06 11:37 AM
I remember using a "ration balancer " a long time ago, I used progressive grass balancer...I was less than pleased with the results and the amount of urine my horses were producing was insane, they were stalled. I believe it was 30% protein .
How much did you feed?
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Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| OregonBR - 2017-06-07 10:35 AM
want2chase3 - 2017-06-06 11:37 AM
I remember using a "ration balancer " a long time ago, I used progressive grass balancer...I was less than pleased with the results and the amount of urine my horses were producing was insane, they were stalled. I believe it was 30% protein .
How much did you feed?
They were getting 2lbs a day. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | An adult horse will get approximately 20 # of feed a day. If the average protein content of grass hay/pasture and/or grain is 10%. The supplement you were using is 30%.
So here's the math. If the total ration by the day is 20# of dry matter.
18 # x 10% = 1.8 pounds of protein provided by the grass/pasture and grain.
2 # x 30% = .6 pounds of protein provided by the supplement
_______________
That's total of 2.4 pounds of protein in the entire diet per day.
Divide 2.4 by the total ration by weight (20#) = 12% protein in the total ration per day.
You're only raising protein by 2% for every day you feed the supplement.
It takes a lot more than 2 pounds @ 30% to raise the protein to a dangerous level. 12% is not even enough for a late pregnancy/lactating mare or her foal. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | OregonBR - 2017-06-07 4:02 PM
An adult horse will get approximately 20 # of feed a day. If the average protein content of grass hay/pasture and/or grain is 10%. The supplement you were using is 30%.
So here's the math. If the total ration by the day is 20# of dry matter.
18 # x 10% = 1.8 pounds of protein provided by the grass/pasture and grain.
2 # x 30% = .6 pounds of protein provided by the supplement
_______________
That's total of 2.4 pounds of protein in the entire diet per day.
Divide 2.4 by the total ration by weight (20#) = 12% protein in the total ration per day.
You're only raising protein by 2% for every day you feed the supplement.
It takes a lot more than 2 pounds @ 30% to raise the protein to a dangerous level. 12% is not even enough for a late pregnancy/lactating mare or her foal.
While I did not take the time to confirm your math, your point is absolutely correct here. Where I have seen a protein supplement have value was exactly in the situation you pointed out, where the roughage source was below the protein needs of the horse and high amounts of grain based feed simply got in the way of digestive efficiency. Some hays are harder to digest and fast through the hind gut. This can also lead to a overall protein shortage in the diet that can't be overcome with grain based feed without greatly overfeeding it. In these cases the high protein "balancers" fed at a low rate can support better overall amino acid profiles and needs without introducing a disruptive level of starch and sugar. I only use these kinds of products in this situation. An alternative to this is to add a alfalfa source if you are in an area that safe quality alfalfa is available. Where the grass hay and / or pasture available is very weak, a combination of added alfalfa and a protein supplement can work to give your horse the overall daily protein amount that its body needs. |
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Warrior Mom
Posts: 4400
| OregonBR - 2017-06-07 4:02 PM
An adult horse will get approximately 20 # of feed a day. If the average protein content of grass hay/pasture and/or grain is 10%. The supplement you were using is 30%.
So here's the math. If the total ration by the day is 20# of dry matter.
18 # x 10% = 1.8 pounds of protein provided by the grass/pasture and grain.
2 # x 30% = .6 pounds of protein provided by the supplement
_______________
That's total of 2.4 pounds of protein in the entire diet per day.
Divide 2.4 by the total ration by weight (20#) = 12% protein in the total ration per day.
You're only raising protein by 2% for every day you feed the supplement.
It takes a lot more than 2 pounds @ 30% to raise the protein to a dangerous level. 12% is not even enough for a late pregnancy/lactating mare or her foal.
I just didn't care for it, didn't like the way my horses looked on it.. I wasn't afraid of over supplementing them on it, I just didn't like what I saw.. this was years ago. I did like their fat supplement and I had my horses on it as well. Can't remember the name of it but it kinda reminded me of cocoa crispies lol! |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | want2chase3 - 2017-06-07 4:42 PM
OregonBR - 2017-06-07 4:02 PM
An adult horse will get approximately 20 # of feed a day. If the average protein content of grass hay/pasture and/or grain is 10%. The supplement you were using is 30%.
So here's the math. If the total ration by the day is 20# of dry matter.
18 # x 10% = 1.8 pounds of protein provided by the grass/pasture and grain.
2 # x 30% = .6 pounds of protein provided by the supplement
_______________
That's total of 2.4 pounds of protein in the entire diet per day.
Divide 2.4 by the total ration by weight (20#) = 12% protein in the total ration per day.
You're only raising protein by 2% for every day you feed the supplement.
It takes a lot more than 2 pounds @ 30% to raise the protein to a dangerous level. 12% is not even enough for a late pregnancy/lactating mare or her foal.
I just didn't care for it, didn't like the way my horses looked on it.. I wasn't afraid of over supplementing them on it, I just didn't like what I saw.. this was years ago. I did like their fat supplement and I had my horses on it as well. Can't remember the name of it but it kinda reminded me of cocoa crispies lol!
I prefer to solve the lack of protein with better roughage if I can. In some cases though, the high protein supplements offer the only solution if better hay or other roughage is not available. Whenever people ask me what the best supplement for the money is, I always tell them "better hay". |
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Over supplementing your horse!