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 Expert
Posts: 2097
 
Location: Deep South | I guess I'm hoping for answers, or at least providing a warning. We're just devastated at this point.
I brought a new colt home at the beginning of this week (bought from an individual). A day or 2 later he has the sale barn crud (A cough and a snotty nose), next day the 3 other horses have it too. I pickup some penicillin to start everyone on last night. I gave it to the new colt and 2 other horses, no problem. I am pulling the needle out of the neck of the last horse, when he literally pulls back and drops dead. It was snap your finger instant.
I'm just in shock. I've never heard of anything even close to this happening. He was a perfectly healthy horse, just ran in the 1D tuesday night. He had been exercised just earlier that afternoon.
I thought Penicillin was safe. It was given per instructions. But I'll never give it to another horse again. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Just let some people, how reds can be allergic to penicillin. That what sounds love me happened to your horse, BUT I am NOT a vet, just past experience that this is what might have happened. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1304
| I don't have answers, but so sorry for your loss  |
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | I am so sorry for your loss!
I worked at a ranch once and we had one have a bad allergic reaction to penecilin. Rolled his eyes and fell over. He made it through though. |
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 Coyote Country Queen
Posts: 5666
| So sorry that this happened, I can't even imagine having to experience something like that.
I'm allergic to penicillin so avoid giving it if at all possible, and my husband always gives the shots if that's what the vet thinks one of our animals needs. But I have heard that this can happen, so we always make sure to pull back on the syringe before administering to make sure there is no blood, otherwise you have to pull the needle and re-stick.
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | I'm really sorry this happened. Horses can have reactions to Penicillin, actually it's a reaction to thr Procaine. I had it happen a long time ago and haven't used it since. If you have Epinephrine on hand sometimes you can save them. |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Even with a severe anaphylactic reaction I wouldn't expect a horse to receive an injection and then drop dead. I'd expect at least a few minutes of other symptoms prior to death......severe agitation, rapid breathing, sweating, respiratory distress, etc..... You gave him a shot and he dropped dead as you were removing the needle. That sounds more like a massive stroke. My guess is you accidentally gave a bolus of penicillin into an artery and it went downstream and caused a massive stroke. That's how it sounds to me. In humans, a sudden intra-arterial injection like that can cause sudden death due to either thrombosis or severe vasospasm in the brain.
Sorry this happened to you! |
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 Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| Yep it can happen. I had a colt years ago that came really close to death after being given a penicillin shot. The vet told me that all horses can react to penicillin it is just at what level. The sad part is you can't tell until you give it. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Liana D - 2017-06-10 8:20 AM
I'm really sorry this happened. Horses can have reactions to Penicillin, actually it's a reaction to thr Procaine. I had it happen a long time ago and haven't used it since. If you have Epinephrine on hand sometimes you can save them.
This is true, but I think the real "sudden death" cases are due to an arterial injection of the procaine. Procaine is like a synthetic version of cocaine, and very closely related. Imagine an intra-arterial cocaine injection into an artery going to the brain.....not good! |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I agree with Bear. Must've gotten a big dose of Procaine to the brain.
So, so, so sorry for your loss.
One of mine got Baytril to the brain once when I hit the wrong vein. He came out of it, but it was the worst, longest five minutes of terrible seizures. A terrible, terrible, terrible feeling.
So sorry! |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | So I have heard of this happen when a friends horse had it. Anytime you give P, make sure you pull back several times on the syringe and make sure NO blood is coming into the syringe. If it does, re stick the needle. If you get any P into the blood stream, even a tiny vein in a muscle, they can drop dead asap.
So sorry that happened to you. There are so many better meds out there than P, but we still keep it on hand and will use it if the vet prescribes it. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | As an aside, you don't just pull the needle out and re-stick. You pull it out, swab a different site with alcohol or betadine, and re-stick with a new needle. I have a feeling this is how a lot of people are getting abscesses. I've even seen vets re-stick with the same needle and not bother to take a couple seconds to prep the site. It's lazy and sloppy. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Bear - 2017-06-10 9:50 AM As an aside, you don't just pull the needle out and re-stick. You pull it out, swab a different site with alcohol or betadine, and re-stick with a new needle. I have a feeling this is how a lot of people are getting abscesses. I've even seen vets re-stick with the same needle and not bother to take a couple seconds to prep the site. It's lazy and sloppy.
well yes, but if anyone is giving their own injections I would sure hope they know this. I am not a Dr/Vet so my lingo is not going to sound official. My point is if you pull up blood, don't inject the Penicillin. |
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 Ms. Marine
Posts: 4641
Location: Texas | I'm so very sorry for your loss.. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Oh man I am so sorry to hear this, but I agree you must have hit a vein and the penicillin got into his bloodstream.. If it was a allergic reaction it would not have happen this fast and it would have taken a bit longer for your horse to start showing signs of a allergic reaction like swelling, heat in the area where the shot was giving, shaking, no balance, sweating.. many years ago my vet showed me how to give shots and he tolded me it was very very important not to hit a vein when giving P, the results would be what had happen to your horse.. I am so sorry for you, hugs 
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2017-06-10 11:14 AM
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Did you check to see if you hit a vein? Even when giving penicillin in the muscle, you have to pull back and make sure you don't get a flash of blood.
Every once in a while we will get blood back on an IM stick. Gives us all a slight heart attack and we get a new needle and try in another spot. I've seen it twice with PPG.
Edited by casualdust07 2017-06-10 11:32 AM
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | Usually happens when you go through a vein. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | total performance - 2017-06-10 5:36 PM
Usually happens when you go through a vein.
More likely when you inject into an artery......directly to the brain. |
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Go Get Em!
Posts: 13503
Location: OH. IO | Im sorry for your loss:( |
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 Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | so sorry... Bears correct.. It must have went in Artery..its sudden.. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | Bear - 2017-06-10 8:19 PM
total performance - 2017-06-10 5:36 PM
Usually happens when you go through a vein.
More likely when you inject into an artery......directly to the brain.
IV penicillin will drop one dead real fast. Don't even have to hit the carotid for them to drop dead. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | casualdust07 - 2017-06-11 9:59 AM
Bear - 2017-06-10 8:19 PM
total performance - 2017-06-10 5:36 PM
Usually happens when you go through a vein.
More likely when you inject into an artery......directly to the brain.
IV penicillin will drop one dead real fast. Don't even have to hit the carotid for them to drop dead.
True in both cases, but I guarantee you intra arterial is more deadly.
Bottom line is people need to know how to give injections properly.
Most people I've seen don't. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1079
Location: MN | Oh my...how sad! Im so sorry for your loss. Prayers and hugs to you |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear, could a vet be held responsible if they do not properly show the owner how to inject this medication? Curious how liable they are for prescribing and not teaching an owner how to administer.
Heck, if I was a vet I would be scared to death to prescribe this medicaiton.  |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-06-12 8:35 AM Bear, could a vet be held responsible if they do not properly show the owner how to inject this medication? Curious how liable they are for prescribing and not teaching an owner how to administer.
Heck, if I was a vet I would be scared to death to prescribe this medicaiton.
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2017-06-12 9:05 AM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: Georgia | OMG this is terrible! Im glad I learned something from this, but so sorry for your loss. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| casualdust07 - 2017-06-11 9:59 AM
Bear - 2017-06-10 8:19 PM
total performance - 2017-06-10 5:36 PM
Usually happens when you go through a vein.
More likely when you inject into an artery......directly to the brain.
IV penicillin will drop one dead real fast. Don't even have to hit the carotid for them to drop dead.
Just to clarify
Penicillin specifically developed to be given intravenous will not kill a horse, it is designed to be given IV
The penicillin you get over the counter labelled IM only can cause death if given IV.
As others have said it is the procaine reaction. This is added into the IM as a local freezing agent as penicillin burns like a buggar going into the muscle.
My vet explained that the procaine shuts down the brain, some horses fight reflex will kick in a their own adrenaline saves them. These horses will do the funky chicken, I had a couple do this, and I pull back every 2.5 ml and no blood ever appeared but I must have been right beside the blood vessel.
Sorry for your loss |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| I am SO sorry this happened to you!!! I have been giving my yearling Penicillin for the past 20 days after bad out break of strangles. I had a little bit of scare when I pulled back and saw blood the other night after I'd already injected a little bit. I was a vet tech for years but had to go back and watch a video and remind myself how to correctly give an IM.
I agree it sounds like you hit an artery. It can happen to anyone, I saw a really good intern vet student give Banamine in the artery once. The only thing that saved that horse was spinal needle to the heart with epinepherine, which would have been impossible in your situation. So sorry, do NOT blame yourself!!
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Ohio girl moved to PA | so very sorry to hear this but, thank you for the thread. ive learned a lot from it. I used to give mine P pretty carelessly to be honest and after reading all this info i wont be anymore. Thats too much of a risk and im very lucky to not have had any bad reactions. Youll be in our prayers!! |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7268
| I am so very sorry for your loss! My girlfriend had a horse suffer a terrible reaction from penicillin - fell thrashing to the ground. Turns out he was allergic. I use Naxcel as my "go-to" antibiotic - though not to say one couldn't be allergic to that too.
Again, so very sorry. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Southtxponygirl - 2017-06-12 8:52 AM IRunOnFaith - 2017-06-12 8:35 AM Bear, could a vet be held responsible if they do not properly show the owner how to inject this medication? Curious how liable they are for prescribing and not teaching an owner how to administer.
Heck, if I was a vet I would be scared to death to prescribe this medicaiton.
Really? I didn't know that. Never had needed Penicillin either... Maybe this is why I didn't know that.  |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-06-12 12:31 PM
Southtxponygirl - 2017-06-12 8:52 AM IRunOnFaith - 2017-06-12 8:35 AM Bear, could a vet be held responsible if they do not properly show the owner how to inject this medication? Curious how liable they are for prescribing and not teaching an owner how to administer.
Heck, if I was a vet I would be scared to death to prescribe this medicaiton.
It depends. It sounds like in this case a vet was not involved in prescribing the penicillin or seeing the horses, so there would be no one to even go after.
I guess in theory, if a veterinarian prescribed medication and failed to ask the owner if they were comfortable giving shots, then maybe they could try... but I don't see that holding up in court. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2017-06-12 9:32 AM
casualdust07 - 2017-06-11 9:59 AM
Bear - 2017-06-10 8:19 PM
total performance - 2017-06-10 5:36 PM
Usually happens when you go through a vein.
More likely when you inject into an artery......directly to the brain.
IV penicillin will drop one dead real fast. Don't even have to hit the carotid for them to drop dead.
Just to clarify
Penicillin specifically developed to be given intravenous will not kill a horse, it is designed to be given IV
The penicillin you get over the counter labelled IM only can cause death if given IV.
As others have said it is the procaine reaction. This is added into the IM as a local freezing agent as penicillin burns like a buggar going into the muscle.
My vet explained that the procaine shuts down the brain, some horses fight reflex will kick in a their own adrenaline saves them. These horses will do the funky chicken, I had a couple do this, and I pull back every 2.5 ml and no blood ever appeared but I must have been right beside the blood vessel.
Sorry for your loss
Yes, that's K-pen or potassium penicillin. It has to be re constituted and is given IV and also has to be given at shorter intervals than PPG/procaine penicillin. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| A little off topic, you people in the states can you get the long acting penicillin for horses?
In Canada we used to but they stopped making it a year ago. |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | IRunOnFaith - 2017-06-12 8:35 AM
Bear, could a vet be held responsible if they do not properly show the owner how to inject this medication? Curious how liable they are for prescribing and not teaching an owner how to administer.
Heck, if I was a vet I would be scared to death to prescribe this medicaiton.
No, I highly doubt anyone would consider the vet to be responsible. |
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Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | Bear - 2017-06-12 1:27 PM IRunOnFaith - 2017-06-12 8:35 AM Bear, could a vet be held responsible if they do not properly show the owner how to inject this medication? Curious how liable they are for prescribing and not teaching an owner how to administer.
Heck, if I was a vet I would be scared to death to prescribe this medicaiton. No, I highly doubt anyone would consider the vet to be responsible.
Just curious.... I would never personally sue a vet for this but In today's world I was just curious if there was any liability there.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | cheryl makofka - 2017-06-12 1:21 PM
A little off topic, you people in the states can you get the long acting penicillin for horses?
In Canada we used to but they stopped making it a year ago.
Not to my knowledge. All I've ever seen was K pen or PPG. |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | I'm so sorry for your loss. . . |
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Penicillin