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 Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
  
Location: In The Snow, AZ | I’ve never had this much of an issue putting weight on a horse. We’ve had this gelding for a little over a month. He is Appendix so does have thorobred blood in there. His teeth were done in June. Currently being fed 2 good quality flakes of alfalfa am and pm. Free fed Bermuda grass. Also getting a soaked bucket of a large scoop of beet pulp, large scoop of rice bran pellets, and a cup of flax, as well as MM. He isn’t SUPER thin. But he’s thinner than I like my horses. I can’t really see his ribs, but I can feel them, and his hip bones portrude more than I like to see. What do you guys think? What should I try? Not really wanting to add processed feeds.
Previous owner bred and raised him. Said he’s always been lankier. So maybe it’s just who he is?
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| Worm and treat for ulcers?? |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 460
| He's cute to boot!! Is he currently being ridden? My tb's always lose weight when they have time off, and gain easier when they are also putting on muscle =] My tbs get 4 flakes of alfalfa also, 24/7 grass turnout, 2 scoops (large folgers can) of either LMF or omelene, and when competing add red cell, forco and amplify. I get asked all the time how my quarter horse got so tall...haha. Weird though how tb's lose all topline with time off! Hope this helps =] |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| If he hasn't been wormed in a while, Iwould do that and check for ulcers, but really, he looks good to me. I personally think it's easier on them to not be too heavy. |
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| Is he finishing all of his feed? How does his hair coat look- dull or shiny? If he seems BAR (bright, alert, responsive), is finishing all his feed and has a nice hair coat, then that could just be how he is built. Remember that appendixes and TBs aren't going to muscle up as much as a foundation QH. If he isn't and looks poor, I would have your vet take a look at his teeth to see if a recent issue cropped up, and/or do bloodwork to at least get some parameters for his normal, and see if anything is out of whack. Before making drastic feed changes or anything else, have your vet take a look, and have a fecal done to see if his parasite load is high.
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 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12708
| I bought a 2yo filly and picked her up on Labor Day weekend. She was thin. Not quite scary thin, but thin. She is just now getting to look the same body condition as your pic. Since my case is a youngster that I don't want to cause too fast a growing spurt I am feeding 1 flake alfalfa twice daily, 1 flake timothy twice daily, and half of my usual 'get-fat-fast' blend of fats and beet pulp, and she's out on my 2nd best pasture for grass. All horses gain at their own rate - I think you've done great in just one month! Ride him and keep feeding him well and by Christmas he'll gain some more. By spring he'll be where you want him. (not that deworming and keeping his teeth checked and all isn't a good idea too!) |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | I feel your pain, I know how hard it is to keep weight on the strong influence TB horses. In all honesty I would treat him for ulcers and put him on a good digestive supplement, as his coat looks really dull. You’d be amazed at what even 14 days on omeprazole will do for one. I also like dosing them with 10cc of Zesterra while treating for ulcers and then every other day. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Thanks for the replies. He is up to date on worming as well, forgot to add that. Forgot about ulcers. That may be my next route. That would actually make sense because he is a very nervous fella. Some days he seems shiny, others he seems very dull. But he is bright and alert. He does NOT finish his feed. He picks throughout the day and night on his alfalfa. And usually has a bit of his bucket left in the morning. Not much, but the other horses lick their buckets clean. So I’ve taken note of that as well.
As far as him being Appendix, I was talking to my friend about this. He and my lil mare are both Appendix. Sticker is about 15 hands, and my mare, Cash is maybe 14.3. They’re both little but quick as all get out. My other gelding is a hair shy of 17 hands. Has the biggest stride. But is registered AQHA. Just thought it was funny because my friend thought I had it backwards. ;) |
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The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | ~BINGO~ - 2017-11-09 12:45 PM Thanks for the replies. He is up to date on worming as well, forgot to add that. Forgot about ulcers. That may be my next route. That would actually make sense because he is a very nervous fella. Some days he seems shiny, others he seems very dull. But he is bright and alert. He does NOT finish his feed. He picks throughout the day and night on his alfalfa. And usually has a bit of his bucket left in the morning. Not much, but the other horses lick their buckets clean. So I’ve taken note of that as well. As far as him being Appendix, I was talking to my friend about this. He and my lil mare are both Appendix. Sticker is about 15 hands, and my mare, Cash is maybe 14.3. They’re both little but quick as all get out. My other gelding is a hair shy of 17 hands. Has the biggest stride. But is registered AQHA. Just thought it was funny because my friend thought I had it backwards. ;)
Oh yeah those are all signs of possible gut issues. That nervousness may be because his guts hurt. I know mine sure acted very watchey, moreso than what he already was, and he'd never clean his bucket. I'd have his favorites in there and he'd take a few bites and turn and walk away. I took him off all processed feeds; he couldnt even handle beet pulp. I don't know why, but he always got a gut ache when I fed it to him. I know others rave about it and feed it religiously, I just couldn't for this particular horse.
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
Location: Bandera, TX | I have had really good results with adding Forco and Health Coat oil. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | My bet is ulcers.
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| WYOTurn-n-Burn - 2017-11-09 10:55 AM
~BINGO~ - 2017-11-09 12:45 PM Thanks for the replies. He is up to date on worming as well, forgot to add that. Forgot about ulcers. That may be my next route. That would actually make sense because he is a very nervous fella. Some days he seems shiny, others he seems very dull. But he is bright and alert. He does NOT finish his feed. He picks throughout the day and night on his alfalfa. And usually has a bit of his bucket left in the morning. Not much, but the other horses lick their buckets clean. So I’ve taken note of that as well. As far as him being Appendix, I was talking to my friend about this. He and my lil mare are both Appendix. Sticker is about 15 hands, and my mare, Cash is maybe 14.3. They’re both little but quick as all get out. My other gelding is a hair shy of 17 hands. Has the biggest stride. But is registered AQHA. Just thought it was funny because my friend thought I had it backwards. ;)
Oh yeah those are all signs of possible gut issues. That nervousness may be because his guts hurt. I know mine sure acted very watchey, moreso than what he already was, and he'd never clean his bucket. I'd have his favorites in there and he'd take a few bites and turn and walk away. I took him off all processed feeds; he couldnt even handle beet pulp. I don't know why, but he always got a gut ache when I fed it to him. I know others rave about it and feed it religiously, I just couldn't for this particular horse.
Definitely the nervousness and not finishing his feed, those are indicative of possible ulcers. You could have him scoped and at that time do bloodwork to make sure he doesn't have any other internal issues going on. Adding a lot of different feedstuffs (such as grains and beet pulp, etc) can actually make ulcers worse, as they increase the VFAs found in the horses' stomach. The best case scenario is letting your horse have access to forage 24/7, but that isn't always possible.
I highly recommend getting your horse scoped before just throwing him on Gastrogard or any omeprazole product, because having a diagnosis and a clear plan of treatment is better than just treating willy-nilly, and knowing you've gotten to the root of the problem is much more worth it than just throwing things out there and potentially wasting money not treating the right issue, or not treating it fully (like ending your course of abx sooner than your doctor advised).
Here's a great article from theHorse about ulcer treatment and prevention:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/30850/diagnosing-and-treating-gast... |
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 Hummer's Hero
Posts: 3071
Location: Smack Dab in the Middle | This is a long shot, and kinda a long story--it started 2.5+ years ago, and is still ongoing--but it may be something to look into if the obvious avenues fail to turn up answers or improve him.
I had a gelding that lost body condition--had always been a big hunky boy. At first, I thought he was depressed from loosing his best friend (and I still think that's a contributing factor) because the decline was slow, and I began to notice it in the first few months after she died. I had his teeth done...no improvement. Green grass would be coming in soon...no improvement. New hay crop should be up soon...no improvement. He continued a slow and steady decline. He began not finishing his feed, or taking very long times to finish it.
After a couple of talks with my vet--whom I am good friends with, we decided to treat him for EPM. All the symptoms fit. He improved in leaps and bounds for 3 weeks of the 4 week treatment...then TANKED. I mean I thought he was going to die. Stopped eating, stopped drinking...I turned him out on green grass and hoped he'd live long enough to see the vet. Took him in, full blood panel, completely normal, no worms in the fecal, scoped positive for ulcers. Treated those and got very minimal improvements, but sorta eating and drinking again was one of them.
I finally asked for a referral to Oklahoma State internal medicine for a diagnostics appointment. We did a neuro exam...negative. Full blood panel...normal. Scoped guttural pouches...clean. Scoped his stomach...healing ulcers--BUT there was still feed in his stomach, even though he'd been fasted.
Started ultrasounding all his major organs, and everything was basically normal until we got to his small intestine where he displayed massive amounts of edema. Normal thickness of the small intestine wall is 2mm, and he measured anywhere from 8-11mm thick. We also discovered his duodenum wasn't properly functioning, which resulted in the feed in his stomach after fast. So basically, even though I was feeding him enough to make a draft horse obese, he was still starving to death because he couldn't get anything out of what he ate.
We did a belly tap that day, because they suspected that he may have lymphoma. He didn't have a lymphocites in his tap, but they did decide he had peritonitis, and we treated him with Abx, omeprazole and then steroids for nearly 90 days. Second belly tap after that was pretty normal. He's had to have a couple of steroid pulses since then, but not in almost a year. I started him on high count probiotics and Equine Senior. He also gets the new Purina Outlast supplement and really likes it. I've been able to keep him eating and maintaining a good weight on him since. I do wish he'd condition better...I really struggle to keep him in shape and muscled along his topline, but we're managing. He's still running barrels--I don't run him a lot. He was a very top 1D horse before, and now he's a 1D/sometimes 2D horse. I'm ok with that.
I can't tell you what he has or what caused it...OSU still doesn't know. They want to do a biopsy on him, but I haven't been able to come up with the money yet.
ETA: I forgot to add that he was also tested for Cushings, twice, and he is negative for that.
Edited by RockinGR 2017-11-09 4:46 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 682
Location: Northwest | Ever since I started feeding Thunder Mountain Minerals my horses have bloomed and filled out in ways I didn’t think were possible. They looked good before, now they look great! They only get grass hay, TMM and a handful of soaked alfalfa cubes. Really, you should look at their website, the reviews are really good. I think it’s all the Minerals; it helps them digest and utilize their feed more efficiently. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 900
Location: Monticello, AR | Just my 2 cents worth....run a couple of months of DAC Cool Gut and a month of DAC Bloom through him. I have a 4 yr old that has been scoped and had so much done and tried and changed....she is a VERY PICKY EATER....so don't give up....after a c ouple of days she was cleaning it up and now I have found some outlast and she is eating this too. I really think these products helped her turn the corner and she feels much better. I retire next Friday ( ) and hopcullh she won't relapse when she is getting ridden every day!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Ohio girl moved to PA | If he has ulcers he'll never gain weight. When i got my pally a couple years ago he was about 300lbs under weight and i couldnt get him to gain for nothing no matter what i put in front of him or did. Come to find out it was ulcers. Fixed his ulcer and he gained beautifully on tribute Kalm Ultra along with DAC bloom and oil. He LOVED it. Anytime i get one in that needs weight they go right on DAC cool gut and DAC bloom and they plump right up. Its so affordable too. Its the only supplement brand that ive had that has worked no matter what horse was on it. Good luck! i know how frustrating weight issues can be. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| If you have addressed the ulcers, teeth, I would look at simplifying the program.
You have a lot of fat, but not a lot simple sugars. I am not a fan of beet pulp as I find it is a filler with no real nutritional value.
I would look at trying hemp products.
Praise Equine Hemp from Canada and I know they can ship to the USA.
I was encouraged by the owner to try it, my horses bloomed within 2 weeks. My 25 yr old went from me thinking this was his last summer due to weight to being fat.
All my friends who have tried it have been impressed as their fussy eaters clean it up right away. My horses will actually chase me down when it comes to feeding.
Mine get a quart of grain, 1/2 cup of hemp fibre, and 15cc of the oil. My total feed cost including the oats is $1.00 CAD a day and my horses look amazing, have a great top line. My 4 yr old went from a 7" gullet to a 10" in 4 months. My horses are more focused, recover faster, are not hot, amd their legs look clean.
If you want more info message me |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| upscowpatty - 2017-11-10 5:34 AM
Just my 2 cents worth....run a couple of months of DAC Cool Gut and a month of DAC Bloom through him. I have a 4 yr old that has been scoped and had so much done and tried and changed....she is a VERY PICKY EATER....so don't give up....after a c ouple of days she was cleaning it up and now I have found some outlast and she is eating this too. I really think these products helped her turn the corner and she feels much better. I retire next Friday () and hopcullh she won't relapse when she is getting ridden every day!!
I agree with treating with cool gut. I would maybe try a different way of feeding. I would try whole oats and alfalfa pellets. Add Dac Performance Plus and Bloom. And the good thing about Dac is that they have a 60 day money back guarantee. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Idaho | ~BINGO~ - 2017-11-10 10:45 AM
Thanks for the replies. He is up to date on worming as well, forgot to add that. Forgot about ulcers. That may be my next route. That would actually make sense because he is a very nervous fella. Some days he seems shiny, others he seems very dull. But he is bright and alert. He does NOT finish his feed. He picks throughout the day and night on his alfalfa. And usually has a bit of his bucket left in the morning. Not much, but the other horses lick their buckets clean. So I’ve taken note of that as well.
As far as him being Appendix, I was talking to my friend about this. He and my lil mare are both Appendix. Sticker is about 15 hands, and my mare, Cash is maybe 14.3. They’re both little but quick as all get out. My other gelding is a hair shy of 17 hands. Has the biggest stride. But is registered AQHA. Just thought it was funny because my friend thought I had it backwards. ;)
He is a good looking boy. You have received some good suggestions here, before you start "self medicating" him and start feeding him a bunch of things to make him gain weight/get a shinier coat/ease his nervousness etc. I would be sending him to a vet to make sure you NEED all of those things. Yes, he teeth may have been done but perhaps they weren't done properly. He could have gut/ulcer issues.. he may be picking at his food all day in attempt to make his stomach stop hurting. I had a gelding a couple years ago.. through testing with the vet, he had really bad ulcers. He would literally be walking along.. then "panic" and take off running. He wouldn't be mean about it.. he also would bite occassionally, and not just a regular bite.. like it would come out of no where and it was so horrendously slow when he did it, but it was like.. Hey, what was that for?? lol After he started getting treatment, he did a complete 180. No problems, no anxiousness, no biting. It was almost as if he was relieved to get rid of the pain. But get this boy checked out. You'd be surprised how those certain things can effect them! |
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 Scooters Savior
Location: "Si Fi" Ville | See if Purina will let you do a trial of Outlast. It worked on mine. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Thank you everyone who replied! Usually when we pick up a horse, we worm, have teeth checked/floated, and treat for ulcers. For some reason, ulcers slipped my mind on this gelding. I hauled him to a small race this past weekend to get some exposure and arena time. I spoke with the assistant of one of the best vets in Northern AZ. Had her look him over. Double checked his teeth. Went over symptoms and his feed regimen, and we decided to treat with 30 days of Omeprazole. She happened to have it on hand, so I was able to start Sticker on it yesterday. Hoping this will be the answer to our problem.
Also really interested in finding out more about the feed recommendations for afterwards. I appreciate all the information and will update after the 30 days is up. |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | First, you did not mention his age. If under five, growth may be a factor. I think your ulcer plan is a good one. This horse is getting plenty of calories in a fairly balanced diet. I always suspect teeth first, but you seem to have that under control. The statement about beet pulp just being a filler with no nutritional value is not correct. While I am not a fan of beet pulp in most situations, it compares favorably with a lot of horse hays at 1000Kcal per pound and 7% protein and 12% NSC and is an easily digestible fiber source. At the amount that you are feeding it should not be any kind of disruption, so I am pretty neutral on that. The system is clearly not properly functioning. I would consider a pre biotic like FORCO in addition to your ulcer treatment. Good luck.
Edited by winwillows 2017-11-15 4:50 PM
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | winwillows - 2017-11-15 2:44 PM
First, you did not mention his age. If under five, growth may be a factor. I think your ulcer plan is a good one. This horse is getting plenty of calories in a fairly balanced diet. I always suspect teeth first, but you seem to have that under control. The statement about beet pulp just being a filler with no nutritional value is not correct. While I am not a fan of beet pulp in most situations, it compares favorably with a lot of horse hays at 1000Kcal per pound and 7% protein and 12% NSC and is an easily digestible fiber source. At the amount that you are feeding it should not be any kind of disruption, so I am pretty neutral on that. The system is clearly not properly functioning. I would consider a pre biotic like FORCO in addition to your ulcer treatment. Good luck.
Thank you! He is a 10 year old. So growth isn’t a factor! I will talk to hubby about adding Forco. I’ve heard wonderful things about it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | While there are a lot of outliers to everything. Weight issues are hardly ever teeth or worms, when a high quality feed program is involved. It's important for good health but hardly ever the sole or main reason for significant issues.
I do not like beet pulp. Nutrition is so much more than calories. Beet pulp has little nutrition. There is nothing beet pulp can do that alfalfa can't do better.
I also am not a fan of probiotics but in some cases they might help when fed temporarily.
Edited by Tdove 2017-11-15 8:55 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Tdove - 2017-11-15 8:36 PM
While there are a lot of outliers to everything. Weight issues are hardly ever teeth or worms, when a high quality feed program is involved. It's important for good health but hardly ever the sole or main reason for significant issues.
I do not like beet pulp. Nutrition is so much more than calories. Beet pulp has little nutrition. There is nothing beet pulp can do that alfalfa can't do better.
I also am not a fan of probiotics but in some cases they might help when fed temporarily.
Wow, did you miss my points entirely. While I agree that I prefer alfalfa to beet pulp, it can have it's place in some diets, and is likely not the issue in this diet. As to teeth, this is the most common cause of failure to thrive in horses that are eating a forage based diet like this as that forage is poorly digested if not comfortably chewed, and a lot of the forage nutrition ends up on the ground behind the horse. Your statement that this is not a common cause of failure to thrive is one of the examples of why so many horse owners miss it. Last, FORCO, which I have no financial interest in, is a prebiotic, not a probiotic. |
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Serious Snap Trapper
Posts: 4275
Location: In The Snow, AZ | Well, luckily I’m not feeding beet pulp for its nutritional value as much as for the water content I can get into my horses. And as mentioned, I don’t feed enough to really matter. I’m a worry wart when It comes to water intake, and love that I can get that extra bit into their bodies. I feel like he’s getting plenty of quality alfalfa, and since that isn’t helping with body condition, I’m ready to look elsewhere; ulcers, other gut issues, etc. So I’m thankful for all the suggestions. I have made it known before that I don’t and won’t run to the vet with every little issue. Granted, I do understand why people would. I don’t feel our local vets are competent and they charge an astronomical fee just to take a heart rate and listen thru the stethoscope. It’s easier, and usually cheaper, for us to just knock out “the list” of things to address before hauling south to find a vet worth visiting. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1302
Location: California | I don't know if everyone has had this much luck but I have used Platinum Performance for a few that were as you described and I noticed a night and day difference in just under 2 weeks. Other people noticed too. Coat and muscle tone picked up drastically and nothing else was changed. I know you mentioned you feed THE, but I fed Platinum a few times when I couldn't get a horse to "thrive" and it worked every time. |
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  Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | you have alot of suggestions but sometimes when one thing works for a million it might not work for the one..lol
I love soaked beet pulp .. add it to my grain. it sounds like he is getting alot of supplements or fat goodies.. but he may need a good grain .. beet pulp also will fill them up faster and might be why he doesnt finish his food
Id try to do a soaked beet pulp- soaked alfalfa pellets and oats ...(personally Id add a quality grain instead of oats) . then id give him alfalfa flakes as you are and free choice bermuda hay .give it 2 months and adjust.
Edited by Bibliafarm 2017-11-16 9:13 PM
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