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Veteran
Posts: 184
 
| Seriously!! I was doing some research and it seems almost as economical to buy a live foal then pay to breed your best mare to one of the greats? Like, DTF, FWF, FG?
Have anyone of you tried it? Success or failure? Are the stallions really as high demand as it seems cracked up to be? I mean when its sooooo much cheaper to breed to a younger stud and receive a LFG?
And what do they mean by Mare Approval?? Like her cycling or the actual mare? If I was gonna spend all of that money I would rather bring a successful well bred YOUNGER mare then a fantastic OLD broodmare? Anyone else catch where I'm going with this??
Is it really worth it??   |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
| Buying vs breeding is like paying cash vs financing a casino trip. You might hit it big; baby might run through the fence and you have a pasture pet for the next 30 years. Special consideration normally means a discount for a mare competing well at a high level or owned by a well known rider, which equates to (hopefully) free advertising for the stallion owner. |
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Expert
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| you don't unless you have deep pockets.... I wouldn't do it.. I have a crippled dtf mare who I got to ride 10 times before she broke her navicular bone.. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | well with my poor luck in the past with AI I won't be trying ICSI. We did realize how much a great repro vet on our end matters and had everything go right when we bred to Firewater Finale a few yrs ago. Going to try to breed a mare to The Kandyman this yr and the only reason I luck out there (convincing the husband) is because they use the same vet to collect him that I will use to AI. |
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Veteran
Posts: 184
| I guess my main thing about ICSI is that, the stallion owners say the contracts are LIMITED.....however,.....if it is so expensive with not a very high % success rate then why limit the contracts if no one can really afford it?????
IMO money is money so why limit it when every stallion is eventually going to have a son better than himself anyway because that makes a great sire? I mean it just seems like such a better idea to breed to lets say, STREAKING TA FAME verses DTF himself and get a foal just as nice.
May not sell for the same price but then again after all the money spent on ICSI....aren't we really just kind of breaking even here???? If we're lucky that is.... |
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 Expert
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Location: East Texas | There are a lot more doing ICSI than you can imagine. I’ll be doing it 3 times this year. On a 2 time World Champion producing mare that’s 24. Her foals sell for a minimum of $20,000. And that’s not being bred to Dtf, FWF or FG, that’s sons of theirs. However this year she will be bred to Frenchman’s Guy via ICSI. This time I’m not doing it just for resale. If one is a filly it will stay here to be her replacement. So I’m ok with added cost. She’s a producer and her foals are worth a lot, even just for me to keep one. The reason they limit, is to make the semen last longer and also so they have semen to use themselves on their own mares. ICSI will produce a lot more foals than just AI with frozen. They can use a lot less of the straw with ICSI. And some of the studs don’t have frozen semen that’s good enough for AI but it can be horrible semen and they can get embryo with ICSI. |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Is this fairly new in barrel horses? It's been in cutting horse discipline for awhile, but seems I'm just seeing it talked about on here in the last few weeks. . . . |
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| ktbeasleyze - 2017-11-19 5:55 PM I guess my main thing about ICSI is that, the stallion owners say the contracts are LIMITED.....however,.....if it is so expensive with not a very high % success rate then why limit the contracts if no one can really afford it????? IMO money is money so why limit it when every stallion is eventually going to have a son better than himself anyway because that makes a great sire? I mean it just seems like such a better idea to breed to lets say, STREAKING TA FAME verses DTF himself and get a foal just as nice. May not sell for the same price but then again after all the money spent on ICSI....aren't we really just kind of breaking even here???? If we're lucky that is....
lol. where are the stats to back that up??  |
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Veteran
Posts: 184
| Highbrow cat is a big name in cutting and produced over 100 foals last year I heard.
As far as stats...maybe it's because cheaper mares can be bred to sons and only the $$$ mares get bred to the $$$ studs |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | ktbeasleyze - 2017-11-20 6:45 AM Highbrow cat is a big name in cutting and produced over 100 foals last year I heard. As far as stats...maybe it's because cheaper mares can be bred to sons and only the $$$ mares get bred to the $$$ studs working around the industry we quickly realized it is not always high earning mares bred to high earning stallions but those with $$ that could afford to breed to a high dollar stud. I think the cutting industry was one of the worst where a couzin of a brother of an uncle related to a big sire was left a stallion. I bet on every stud farm we went to, the horses in training had a ratio of 40-1 stallions vs geldings.
Of course you do have those with the top mares and they would be foolish to breed those to anything but a big name stallion. But those same stallions get a lot of less than average mares.
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2017-11-20 8:01 AM
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7551
Location: In The Land of Cotton | wyoming barrel racer - 2017-11-20 8:58 AM ktbeasleyze - 2017-11-20 6:45 AM Highbrow cat is a big name in cutting and produced over 100 foals last year I heard. As far as stats...maybe it's because cheaper mares can be bred to sons and only the $$$ mares get bred to the $$$ studs working around the industry we quickly realized it is not always high earning mares bred to high earning stallions but those with $$ that could afford to breed to a high dollar stud. I think the cutting industry was one of the worst where a couzin of a brother of an uncle related to a big sire was left a stallion. I bet on every stud farm we went to, the horses in training had a ratio of 40-1 stallions vs geldings.
Of course you do have those with the top mares and they would be foolish to breed those to anything but a big name stallion. But those same stallions get a lot of less than average mares.
Yep, most of the cutting barns do leave them stallions. One reason is to see how they perform in the futurity first in November/December. Then if they don't perform, they cut them. Or, sale them to someone who wants an uncle/brother/in-law to try and make a name with. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | 3canstorun - 2017-11-20 7:12 AM wyoming barrel racer - 2017-11-20 8:58 AM ktbeasleyze - 2017-11-20 6:45 AM Highbrow cat is a big name in cutting and produced over 100 foals last year I heard. As far as stats...maybe it's because cheaper mares can be bred to sons and only the $$$ mares get bred to the $$$ studs working around the industry we quickly realized it is not always high earning mares bred to high earning stallions but those with $$ that could afford to breed to a high dollar stud. I think the cutting industry was one of the worst where a couzin of a brother of an uncle related to a big sire was left a stallion. I bet on every stud farm we went to, the horses in training had a ratio of 40-1 stallions vs geldings.
Of course you do have those with the top mares and they would be foolish to breed those to anything but a big name stallion. But those same stallions get a lot of less than average mares.
I understand to a point keeping them that way to see if they are future superstars but even sway backs, crips, parrot mouth, just plain ugly, 4 & 5 yr olds were all studs. A few of the empoyees had geldings that they showed here and there. That was about it. |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| It just shows that people are more concerned with a performance record or pedigree, than conformation. Look at some of the really well bred studs that have hit the barrel market in the last year or two. Thank goodness they are bred right because they are not much to look at. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Whiteboy - 2017-11-20 11:26 AM It just shows that people are more concerned with a performance record or pedigree, than conformation. Look at some of the really well bred studs that have hit the barrel market in the last year or two. Thank goodness they are bred right because they are not much to look at.
I agree and look what it did to a lot of the race horses. So many are born with so many flaws they are unsound before they even get a chance. Heart and talent can only go so far. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| wyoming barrel racer - 2017-11-20 12:51 PM
Whiteboy - 2017-11-20 11:26 AM It just shows that people are more concerned with a performance record or pedigree, than conformation. Look at some of the really well bred studs that have hit the barrel market in the last year or two. Thank goodness they are bred right because they are not much to look at.
I agree and look what it did to a lot of the race horses. So many are born with so many flaws they are unsound before they even get a chance. Heart and talent can only go so far.
Its all great if you dont care about using the horse after age 5. But for those of us that need a horse to actually be useful we need something that is correct and can last. |
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| Whiteboy - 2017-11-20 10:56 AM
wyoming barrel racer - 2017-11-20 12:51 PM
Whiteboy - 2017-11-20 11:26 AM It just shows that people are more concerned with a performance record or pedigree, than conformation. Look at some of the really well bred studs that have hit the barrel market in the last year or two. Thank goodness they are bred right because they are not much to look at.
I agree and look what it did to a lot of the race horses. So many are born with so many flaws they are unsound before they even get a chance. Heart and talent can only go so far.
Its all great if you dont care about using the horse after age 5. But for those of us that need a horse to actually be useful we need something that is correct and can last.
This has been a huge topic of conversation in our house recently. It seems like a lot of people are breeding based on names and bloodlines, and not taking conformation into account. There’s a lot of really well bred, conformationally ugly horses out there. |
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Veteran
Posts: 184
| I would give more money out for a nicely built horse then a nicely bred one.....those nice papers wont pay the vet bills when they break down in a race....why aren't people making way for conformation instead of papers anyhow???
I've got a really nicely solid built foundation bred mare that is simply built to the hilt but know I wont be able to sell her for what she is worth because she isn't a descendent of a WHO's WHO in the industry.
It seems with ICSI.....that maybe if our pockets become deeper......perhaps we should try breeding for something that will be able to preform for years verses something that is more mentally and physically unsound but has a nice name.
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| I guess my point is that ICSI is such an invetsment that breeders are unwilling to cull... with will negatively impact the breed in the long term. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | ktbeasleyze - 2017-11-20 12:27 PM I would give more money out for a nicely built horse then a nicely bred one.....those nice papers wont pay the vet bills when they break down in a race....why aren't people making way for conformation instead of papers anyhow??? I've got a really nicely solid built foundation bred mare that is simply built to the hilt but know I wont be able to sell her for what she is worth because she isn't a descendent of a WHO's WHO in the industry. It seems with ICSI.....that maybe if our pockets become deeper......perhaps we should try breeding for something that will be able to preform for years verses something that is more mentally and physically unsound but has a nice name.
It's so people can say I have an """""OWN""""" daughter/son of so and so. I never understood why it isn't as fancy to say you have a daughter of so and so. I know pretty is as pretty does but sometimes they can do pretty for only so long until they fall apart. I am big on disposition. I won't forgo conformation because of it, but I will pass up a pretty well bred horse anyday for a sound horse with a stellar work ethic that wants to by my friend. |
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Veteran
Posts: 184
| Yeah maybe that's it.....but how do you think the stallion owners feel? Taking the money and breeding your stallion to a less than average mare can't really sit that well.... |
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| ktbeasleyze - 2017-11-20 2:36 PM
Yeah maybe that's it.....but how do you think the stallion owners feel? Taking the money and breeding your stallion to a less than average mare can't really sit that well....
A lot of them never see the mare, just the papers- if you’re breeding via shipped semen. With ICSI, I think that is where the “approved mare” thing comes into play, they have the ability to deny the mare if they choose to.
I would hope that stallion owners were conscientious of what type of foals they’re producing, but look at all the stallions that are carriers of HERDA, PSSM, GBED, etc. Only some of them are requiring the mares be 5 panel N/N. Some breeding contracts don’t say a darn thing about it. |
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Veteran
Posts: 184
| True....however we said earlier that a mare can have awesome papers but look like crap and then another mare can have average papers but look and preform stellar.
I am starting to see why the stallion owners just don't care anymore and simply take the money...if someone has the money to pay for ICSI with an average mare, knowing that they probably won't be able to sell it for what they feel like its worth....then let it be. Obviously they have money to blow that I don't, lol  |
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ICSI, How Do You Afford It?