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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
    
Location: TEXAS | so she had a rough start in her training and is mentally behind. She's so short strided it's hard for me to tell if she's collected and I hate the way she carries her head. At a walk it's parallel to the ground on a lose rein. The minute we trot or lope that head comes up and she just wants to go fast! Any advice. https://youtu.be/wy74Lug0204
Edited by slacy09 2017-11-29 10:29 AM
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 460
| Is she fragile minded? What are you using in her mouth? Guessing you are using a snaffle, if she's early in training...I would switch to a hackamore. Also assuming she's not sore anywhere. I got a filly after "30 days" one time that was totally blown up. Switched her to a hack, and it did wonders for her =] |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Katielovestbs - 2017-11-27 3:37 PM Is she fragile minded? What are you using in her mouth? Guessing you are using a snaffle, if she's early in training...I would switch to a hackamore. Also assuming she's not sore anywhere. I got a filly after "30 days" one time that was totally blown up. Switched her to a hack, and it did wonders for her =]
Yes, she is fragile minded and had her tongue torn up by a trainer jerking on her so much. I could try a hack, that might help! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| Just going off of what you said and watching the video, I don’t think she’s ready to go fast yet; she missed some steps in how to travel correctly packing a rider. Go fast = throw head up, hollow out back and you have a controlled runaway.
I think she needs to go back to basics. Can you find a GOOD trainer to ride a few times with or even go watch them ride colts? You can learn SO much by just observing and asking questions!
I also really like Tom Dorance/Ray Hunt videos and books. They have a TON of info on getting with the horse and helping them find their legs and travel correctly.
Good luck! |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Thank you. She spent 45 days with a really good trainer and has come a long way if that tells you anything. I don't want her to go fast, I want her to stay calm and slow. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | She looks extremely uncomfortable and unhappy............getting her into a hack or sidepull might help, but I think she is sore or has a problem some where in her hindquarters. She also looks like it hurts her feet just going forward and hitting the ground. JM2cent |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 672
| slacy09 - 2017-11-27 4:49 PM
Thank you. She spent 45 days with a really good trainer and has come a long way if that tells you anything. I don't want her to go fast, I want her to stay calm and slow.
was she moving with a low headset and rounded back with the trainer? If so, maybe you could go ride with him/her and get that soft feel back? I'm not talking about going fast here either, start at a walk and get her trotting correctly and in balance and move up... |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | veintiocho - 2017-11-27 5:29 PM slacy09 - 2017-11-27 4:49 PM Thank you. She spent 45 days with a really good trainer and has come a long way if that tells you anything. I don't want her to go fast, I want her to stay calm and slow. was she moving with a low headset and rounded back with the trainer? If so, maybe you could go ride with him/her and get that soft feel back? I'm not talking about going fast here either, start at a walk and get her trotting correctly and in balance and move up...
No she has always carried her head like that. Even with the owner I bought her from |
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 Expert
Posts: 1302
Location: California | That horse looks very uncomfortable and mad. I would say something is wrong not pertaining to training. |
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Addicted to Baseball
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright, TX | Collection doesn't come in 45 days, it takes a long time to build that knowledge and fitness level in a horse. And it comes from back to front, she's all over the place head to tail, toe to spine. She's a long, long way from even being asked for the first baby steps of it. She needs to be dialed way back and started over methodically without asking for "collection" or anything else for quite some time. She has no earthly idea what she's supposed to be doing or what's being asked of her.
This graphic isn't short term path, but it's to give an idea of where one starts, at the base, and collection is the very last thing to come.
Edited by Tilt The Kilt 2017-11-27 8:19 PM
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | little_bug - 2017-11-27 7:19 PM That horse looks very uncomfortable and mad. I would say something is wrong not pertaining to training.
She does act mad when I ride her in the arena every time. She rides a lot better out in the pasture. Not sure why
ETA: I'm going to have vet check her out and teeth checked again
Edited by slacy09 2017-11-27 8:27 PM
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Tilt The Kilt - 2017-11-27 8:18 PM
Collection doesn't come in 45 days, it takes a long time to build that knowledge and fitness level in a horse. And it comes from back to front, she's all over the place head to tail, toe to spine. She's a long, long way from even being asked for the first baby steps of it. She needs to be dialed way back and started over methodically without asking for "collection" or anything else for quite some time. She has no earthly idea what she's supposed to be doing or what's being asked of her.
This graphic isn't short term path, but it's to give an idea of where one starts, at the base, and collection is the very last thing to come.
I should have made myself more clear. She had 60 days on her when I got her and then I had 45 more days put on her and I've rode her probably 20 rides. So where do I start with her? She's very sensitive to my feet and is pretty light in the mouth. She will back up, reverse arc, flex, move off my feet, etc. it all falls apart when we move past a walk. |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | I would need better video to help pin point what I'm looking at, but something is not right with that horse, and I do not think it is the training. She moved very very odd. Is she full quarter horse? |
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Addicted to Baseball
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright, TX | Ok but still...collection takes a long, long time. I realize that barrel racers set their horses paths at a different pace than us english riders, but it should never be a concern for months and months and months. If she were mine or one of my husband's cutters, we'd first ask nothing but some long reined rides at a walk. Just change direction, doing squares, etc. I would likely before that get her flexing side to side, from the ground to start. Something like the video link. BUT, I'd only ask her for a slight give to start with. The second she even moves her nose an inch or less but still gets a response in the right direction, let go. That's her reward. And build to basically what he's doing. Over days not minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC3LzLWqi9o
Then when she's soft and responding clear to the side with very little ask from you, I'd ask for the same response in the saddle at a halt. You're building to what I'd do to help me gain some control so she'll gain some rhythm in her trot. Once she's soft side to side at a halt, then move to walk and when you've walked her a ways, then softy ask her to come to a stop by basically a one-rein stop, then release her. So then, when you are ready to start trotting, you just trot. Long side, away you go, see if she speeds up - she will. When she gets enough out of the cadence you've determined her to go in and you feel she's getting willy nilly and lost, you again, one rein stop her. But gently. No snatching, it's a slow soft transition. And ground to walk to trot is over weeks, not one lesson. Make sure she's soft and solid fully understanding the request before adding any speed. She will, over time, learn where you want her. When she is working at a regular pace, do circles again, do squares, changes of direction. I'll video our newest horse with my husband doing all this sometime and send it if you'd like it. He's an OTT I'll be jumping, and my husband sold his horse, so I'm letting him spend some time with him doing it his way. Rhythm first. You can't train a horse at paces they choose. It's frenetic and distracting for both of you.
I don't know if she's in pain, if she's got mouth issues, saddle fit, the wrong bit, but I agree with the others, she's evading something - she's very uncomfortable and add to that, she's green enough she is just falling apart over the physical and the mental by the looks of it. Besides figuring out the physical issues, horses like this need time to train, their timeline, not ours. ETA: and I'm sorry, it's hard to explain all this in writing vs. a video or having the horse in front of you. Good luck to you, I hope it gets resolved for both of you.
Edited by Tilt The Kilt 2017-11-27 9:00 PM
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Tilt The Kilt - 2017-11-27 8:52 PM
Ok but still...collection takes a long, long time. I realize that barrel racers set their horses paths at a different pace than us english riders, but it should never be a concern for months and months and months. If she were mine or one of my husband's cutters, we'd first ask nothing but some long reined rides at a walk. Just change direction, doing squares, etc. I would likely before that get her flexing side to side, from the ground to start. Something like the video link. BUT, I'd only ask her for a slight give to start with. The second she even moves her nose an inch or less but still gets a response in the right direction, let go. That's her reward. And build to basically what he's doing. Over days not minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC3LzLWqi9oThen when she's soft and responding clear to the side with very little ask from you, I'd ask for the same response in the saddle at a halt. You're building to what I'd do to help me gain some control so she'll gain some rhythm in her trot. Once she's soft side to side at a halt, then move to walk and when you've walked her a ways, then softy ask her to come to a stop by basically a one-rein stop, then release her. So then, when you are ready to start trotting, you just trot. Long side, away you go, see if she speeds up - she will. When she gets enough out of the cadence you've determined her to go in and you feel she's getting willy nilly and lost, you again, one rein stop her. But gently. No snatching, it's a slow soft transition. And ground to walk to trot is over weeks, not one lesson. Make sure she's soft and solid fully understanding the request before adding any speed. She will, over time, learn where you want her. When she is working at a regular pace, do circles again, do squares, changes of direction. I'll video our newest horse with my husband doing all this sometime and send it if you'd like it. He's an OTT I'll be jumping, and my husband sold his horse, so I'm letting him spend some time with him doing it his way. Rhythm first. You can't train a horse at paces they choose. It's frenetic and distracting for both of you.
I don't know if she's in pain, if she's got mouth issues, saddle fit, the wrong bit, but I agree with the others, she's evading something - she's very uncomfortable and add to that, she's green enough she is just falling apart over the physical and the mental by the looks of it. Besides figuring out the physical issues, horses like this need time to train, their timeline, not ours. ETA: and I'm sorry, it's hard to explain all this in writing vs. a video or having the horse in front of you. Good luck to you, I hope it gets resolved for both of you.
Thank you so much!! All that really helps and I would love to see a video of y'all working a young horse!!! |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | *almost there* - 2017-11-27 8:35 PM
I would need better video to help pin point what I'm looking at, but something is not right with that horse, and I do not think it is the training. She moved very very odd. Is she full quarter horse?
Yes she is with very impressive papers! I think I need to start back at the vet and dentist with everyone commenting on her movement. |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Also she is barefoot. She's never been shod |
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Expert
Posts: 1446
Location: California | slacy09 - 2017-11-27 7:38 PM
Also she is barefoot. She's never been shod
I don’t think the problem is she is barefoot. Something doesn’t look right in her balance, it’s almost like she’s an uncollected gaited horse. Keep us updated what you find out. |
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 I hate cooking and cleaning
Posts: 3314
Location: Jersey Girl | All that tail swishing with the short stride makes me think something is bothering her.
Is she sore somewhere, does the saddle fit?
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | turn the phone sideways
it's almost impossible to see anything from a sliver of video
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Member
Posts: 41
| *almost there* - 2017-11-28 12:35 AM
slacy09 - 2017-11-27 7:38 PM
Also she is barefoot. She's never been shod
I don’t think the problem is she is barefoot. Something doesn’t look right in her balance, it’s almost like she’s an uncollected gaited horse. Keep us updated what you find out.
This is also what I was thinking. Her footfalls are off -- it's almost like she is four-beating a lope instead of having three distinct beats, especially to the left. |
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Member
Posts: 41
| Thinking about this some more, I've seen a horse with an underlying neurological problem move like this -- unbalanced, head high and back braced, hind end and front end disjointed, almost shuffling gait. |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | slacy09 - 2017-11-27 3:27 PM so she had a rough start in her training and is mentally behind. She's so short strided it's hard for me to tell if she's collected and I hate the way she carries her head. At a walk it's parallel to the ground on a lose rein. The minute we trot or lope that head comes up and she just wants to go fast! Any advice. https://youtu.be/wy74Lug0204
I do not intend to sound harsh or mean so I apologize if it comes off that way, but if you can't tell that your horse is NOT collected, I think you need to get some lessons for yourself. (Because she is very much NOT collected.) Is there a reining trainer or an english trainer near you?
I agree that she looks very uncomfortable. She's bracing with her face and neck, and pretty short in stride. Plus her tail is going like crazy. She looks worse going to the left. It could just be training, but it probably wouldn't hurt for her to have a full lameness eval and look everything over.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Ohio girl moved to PA | I agree with the others, shes in pain somewhere for sure. id be getting a full lameness exam done, along with teeth and chiro. Something looks way off in that hind end. |
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 The One
Posts: 7998
Location: South Georgia | I could only watch for a few seconds...lame was my first thought. By no means is she collected, just because she's loping relatively slowly. Speed is not collection. A nice rounded back and soft mouth giving to the bit vertically is collection. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| She looks like she is hurting. The bracing and hollow back with the tail swishing is the red flag. Could you try to make a video of loose reins at a trot? |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Thanks everyone for the input and advice. I'm going to get her into the vet and I'll let ya'll know what I find out!!! |
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 I'm Cooler Offline
Posts: 6387
Location: Pacific Northwest | What does she move like on the ground? Like if you free lunge her in a round pen? |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | r_beau - 2017-11-28 8:37 AM slacy09 - 2017-11-27 3:27 PM so she had a rough start in her training and is mentally behind. She's so short strided it's hard for me to tell if she's collected and I hate the way she carries her head. At a walk it's parallel to the ground on a lose rein. The minute we trot or lope that head comes up and she just wants to go fast! Any advice. https://youtu.be/wy74Lug0204
I agree that she looks very uncomfortable. She's bracing with her face and neck, and pretty short in stride. Plus her tail is going like crazy. She looks worse going to the left. It could just be training, but it probably wouldn't hurt for her to have a full lameness eval and look everything over.
No I understand that you are trying to help  I know that teaching a horse collection is definitely not an area I am knowledgable in!! I need to make a video of my big gelding and see if I have him collected. The concept of getting them to round their back and teaching it is so hard for me. I've watched many videos and read and read on it and I just can't seem to grasp the concept....sigh. The only trainer I know around here is a western pleasure trainer and she barrel races. Maybe she could help me?? |
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The One
Posts: 7998
Location: South Georgia | slacy09 - 2017-11-28 1:38 PM r_beau - 2017-11-28 8:37 AM slacy09 - 2017-11-27 3:27 PM so she had a rough start in her training and is mentally behind. She's so short strided it's hard for me to tell if she's collected and I hate the way she carries her head. At a walk it's parallel to the ground on a lose rein. The minute we trot or lope that head comes up and she just wants to go fast! Any advice. https://youtu.be/wy74Lug0204
I agree that she looks very uncomfortable. She's bracing with her face and neck, and pretty short in stride. Plus her tail is going like crazy. She looks worse going to the left. It could just be training, but it probably wouldn't hurt for her to have a full lameness eval and look everything over.
She should be able to. They have to be super soft in the mouth and giving when you pick up on the reins. Then, once they can be soft and give vertically, you can use your legs and seat to push them up into your hands to hold a frame. Eventually, they learn to carry themselves this way when a rider enforces it and rewards it. |
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  Northern Chocolate Queen
Posts: 16576
Location: ND | slacy09 - 2017-11-28 11:38 AM
r_beau - 2017-11-28 8:37 AM slacy09 - 2017-11-27 3:27 PM so she had a rough start in her training and is mentally behind. She's so short strided it's hard for me to tell if she's collected and I hate the way she carries her head. At a walk it's parallel to the ground on a lose rein. The minute we trot or lope that head comes up and she just wants to go fast! Any advice. https://youtu.be/wy74Lug0204
I agree that she looks very uncomfortable. She's bracing with her face and neck, and pretty short in stride. Plus her tail is going like crazy. She looks worse going to the left. It could just be training, but it probably wouldn't hurt for her to have a full lameness eval and look everything over.
I would definitely talk to her & see if she'd help you out. I know many are anti pleasure horse but the basics of collection are the same regardless of discipline. And honestly, if she would let you get on one of her horses so you can feel what you're working towards it helps so much. At least for me, I have to feel things, I can read all the books & watch a million video's & things don't click until I feel it for myself. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I agree with all the others. I am not one to normally go to lameness but something is off in the back end. I think even her transitions are a mess and shows how off balanced and uncollected she is. You also have her bent too far to the inside which throws her hip out and causes her back end to flail. My young mare went through a phase where we just rode, I took her on traisl, weaved trees, got the mail. Got her comfortable carrying me and moving off my legs, listening to my seat, etc. Then we started to work on collection. She is also a very short strided horse. I will see if I can find a video from day 1 of collection training.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSIceuVmehk
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Born not Made
Posts: 2937
Location: North Dakota | slacy09 - 2017-11-28 12:38 PM r_beau - 2017-11-28 8:37 AM slacy09 - 2017-11-27 3:27 PM so she had a rough start in her training and is mentally behind. She's so short strided it's hard for me to tell if she's collected and I hate the way she carries her head. At a walk it's parallel to the ground on a lose rein. The minute we trot or lope that head comes up and she just wants to go fast! Any advice. https://youtu.be/wy74Lug0204
I agree that she looks very uncomfortable. She's bracing with her face and neck, and pretty short in stride. Plus her tail is going like crazy. She looks worse going to the left. It could just be training, but it probably wouldn't hurt for her to have a full lameness eval and look everything over.
If she teaches western pleasure the correct way, she should be able to help you feel what collection should feel like. In order to travel correctly, they must have their back rounded and hind legs under them, driving from behind.
I'd probably see if you could take lessons on trained horses first, so you know what it feels like, then start taking lessons on your own horse.
I'd also ask around -- there are sure to be other trainers in your area that you just don't know about. I myself try to ride at least a few times a year with both my reining trainer and my english trainer. I'd like to go more often, but life is just busy! I do "cheat" every spring. One of my two horses goes to the reining trainer for 30 days every year in the spring. He gets them in shape and tuned up for me -- I love it!
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Vet said it is her right stifle and that she is carrying a lot of fluid on it. How does a 4 yr old with very little riding already need stifle injections??  |
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Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| slacy09 - 2017-11-29 10:30 AM
Vet said it is her right stifle and that she is carrying a lot of fluid on it. How does a 4 yr old with very little riding already need stifle injections??
I always wonder what causes such dramatic wear and tear on some but I know a lot of people who have needed some heavy maintenance on their young ones. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | slacy09 - 2017-11-29 10:30 AM Vet said it is her right stifle and that she is carrying a lot of fluid on it. How does a 4 yr old with very little riding already need stifle injections??
She could be built straight in the stifle, which affects soundness, or she could have weak stifles which can also cause inflammation. |
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Addicted to Baseball
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright, TX | slacy09 - 2017-11-29 10:30 AM Vet said it is her right stifle and that she is carrying a lot of fluid on it. How does a 4 yr old with very little riding already need stifle injections??
That's too bad, but they don't only hurt their stifles by being ridden. We had one blow his just spooking when someone startled him as they filled his water bucket. The rapid-fast down to his belly and turn cutting move he did hurt him severely and he had to have injections...he was two. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | If there was a lot of fluid on her stifle I would have it xrayed before I did anything. She could have OCD lesions that need to be addressed. |
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | Tilt The Kilt - 2017-11-29 5:28 PM slacy09 - 2017-11-29 10:30 AM Vet said it is her right stifle and that she is carrying a lot of fluid on it. How does a 4 yr old with very little riding already need stifle injections??
That makes sense too. The way she was treated when she was 2 by the first trainer could have caused this. |
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Addicted to Baseball
Location: Where the stars at night are big and bright, TX | slacy09 - 2017-11-30 8:52 AM Tilt The Kilt - 2017-11-29 5:28 PM slacy09 - 2017-11-29 10:30 AM Vet said it is her right stifle and that she is carrying a lot of fluid on it. How does a 4 yr old with very little riding already need stifle injections??
Sorry to hear that.  Hope she gets the treatment she needs and you can see how she comes along once she's not hurting. |
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Back to headset/ collection thread. Video of my 4 yr old**UPDATE**