Easy Rider - 2017-12-09 10:40 PM

See I get confused on this because I am pulling this from a web site that says differently and on a well known stallion
A Smooth Guy Disease Panel Test Results
HERDA N/HRD - Carries one copy of the HERDA Gene
GBED - Heterozygous (One Normal and One GBED Gene)
HYPP - NEGATIVE * MH - Negative * PSSM1 - NEGATIVE
Keep in mind that both sire and dam must have the gene in order for it to be expressed in the offspring.

The HERDA trait is most frequently seen in the Poco Bueno line of horses. The GBED defect has been found in Thoroughbreds. For additional questions or information, please call us at (405) 449-7575.

And his offspring have done well, just a different negative.

madredepeanut - 2017-12-10 8:34 AM


HERDA is recessive, whereas PSSM1 is dominant. Since HERDA is recessive, you need two copies of the gene for the horse to be affected, whereas with PSSM1 you only need one copy of the gene to be affected.

What that means is that if you breed a N/N horse to a N/HRD (carrier horse), you have a 50% chance of getting another carrier horse, but the foal will not be affected. If you breed two carriers, then you have a 50% chance the foal will be a carrier, a 25% chance of getting an affected foal, and a 25% chance of getting a normal foal.

ETA: GBED is also recessive, so the same probabilities apply as with HERDA.

Easy Rider - 2017-12-10 6:55 AM

Another question if I could pick your genetic brain a little more, if the suspected starter on a horses pedigree is over 5 generations back, does that eventually dilute it? I’m really dumb when it comes to most of this and appreciate the answers

123barrelracer - 2017-12-10 4:09 PM

Are mares (used for breeding) required to be 5 panel tested with AQHA? Or is just stallions? If not, is AQHA planning on requiring that in the future? Thanks.

madredepeanut - 2017-12-10 6:16 PM


I know I had to 5 panel test my TB mare to register her with the AQHA to register her coming foal, but I don’t believe they are requiring mares to be tested before breeding. I’m not sure if they would be able to enforce that, as there are so many people breeding. But maybe to register the foals they would require it? Hopefully someone involved with the AQHA on here can shed some light!

123barrelracer - 2017-12-10 5:25 PM


Thank you! Someone told me they were going to be requiring mares to be tested before the foals could be registered, but I haven't been able to find anything official from AQHA?? Maybe someone else here will know :)

OregonBR - 2017-12-11 10:47 AM


Not yet. But I think it's coming. It's the next logical step.

Another thing to be aware of. There is research that has discovered 4 more muscle myopathies that are very common in TB and QH race lines. They are developing a DNA test for that now. It's in the publishing/peer review stage right now. They "think" there is one, maybe two more myopathies as some horses have symptoms but test clean for all currently available tests. Since new rules come from members, it might not be long before it's a 9 panel test or more.

Easy Rider - 2017-12-11 5:27 PM


Oh wow, it makes you wonder how many competitive horses currently have something like this... From reading some are manageable, so that’s good

Easy Rider - 2017-12-13 7:45 AM

I noticed on some studs advertisements that some say 5 panel neg and others don't even mention it.

So, if you have a mare by a sire like that,(that tests positive on one of those panels) and have her tested and she is N/N will her colts all be N/N because she is?

Thank you everyone for shedding light on this for me.

OregonBR - 2017-12-13 11:49 AM


Every foal gets one copy of every gene from their sire and one from their dam. So any and all qualities that the sire has or the dam has will pass on to the foals. Whether something is expressed outwardly depends on whether the gene is recessive or dominant and if either the sire or the dam are heterozygous or homozygous for that gene. If something is dominant and the parent is homozygous for the gene the foal will get it 100% of the time. And since it's dominant the foal will express it.

Just because a foal/mare/stallion has a positive parent doesn't mean they will be positive unless the parent is homozygous for the gene. PSSM1 is dominant. Which means if they have one gene, they are affected and will pass it on. How often they pass it on depends on if they are homozygous or heterozygous for that gene. A P1/P1 horse (homozygous) will have positive foal 100% of the time. A n/P1 horse will have a positive foal 50% of the time.

AQHA stallions are ALL required to have been 5 panel tested in order to register any foal by them. If a stallion owner isn't disclosing the stallions test results publicly you can call AQHA and they will tell you if they are tested and what those results are. I recommend calling on every stallion you are seriously considering breeding to, because some people are confused by the genetics and might not think it's a big deal. It is if you get a positive foal and it's symptomatic. I wouldn't breed to a stallion who hasn't been tested yet because that's a major red flag for me.

Easy Rider - 2017-12-13 2:03 PM


Wow, that is a great explanation.

So if a foal is tested that is by a N/P1 stud, and foal comes back N/N it is considered heterozygous, and all of that (lets just say foal is a mare) mares foals will be heterozygous for that gene providing you breed to a N/N stallion?

Thank you again!
I am slow at learning this but I wanted to fully understand it, because just like you said above, there are a lot of us that are confused by genetics and I didn't know if it was or wasn't a big deal.

123barrelracer - 2017-12-13 2:51 PM


Yes, any foals out of that N/N mare will also be N/N as long as you breed to an N/N stallion. She got lucky and inherited the "N" gene from her N/P1 sire instead of the "P1".

I think you are confusing the terms "heterozygous" and "homozygous", though. "Heterozygous" means that there are two different genes -- in this case N/P1. "Homozygous" means that there are two genes of the same type -- either P1/P1 or N/N. So, it may be helpful to specify "homozygous positive" or "homozygous negative" for a certain gene. It may be a strange way to think of it, but the same prefixes are used when talking about sexuality: "heterosexual" means man+woman (2 different genders) and "homosexual" means man+man or woman+woman (2 of the same gender).

Easy Rider - 2017-12-18 6:01 AM

I have another question, as far as resulting babies that are by a stud that tests positive for any of these.
Would you hesitate to buy one? Does that hurt resale?
Which of these 5 are dominants? is it just he one?

I appreciate your time in answering my questions,
Knowledge is power!

Easy Rider - 2017-12-19 6:43 AM

Thank you OBR, from my reading, some that test N/P never show signs of it.
So I was curious and I find the 9 panel interesting, but one thing is for sure AQHA is going to continue to make money hand over fist coming up with all these things.

I figure every breed of every animal has "something", true in dogs and horses. If you are armed going into it, you have a lot of the battle won.

I was told of a horse that was for sale years ago, seen pictures of this pretty sorrel gelding and the lady just needed to sell him, 5500, when I asked his bloodlines, the first one that I was told, Impressive, and I passed, because all I knew was Impressive was HYPP, didn't know what that stood for, but I didn't want it. (uneducated youth)
Well a few years later that lady still had him, he was winning rodeos and made it to the NFR, the ladies name June Holeman, the horse Sparky Impression, so I passed on a horse because of his breeding and his "Imperfection" and he went on to do great things. I kick myself daily lol, but doing my homework on these things more now then I did then, because I didn't have google then lol

OregonBR - 2017-12-19 11:45 AM


AQHA has nothing at all to do with all these mutations. They are simply making us test for the 5 that have reliable tests. The other tests that are being developed may or may not be included in the panel in the future. It would require a rule change at the association to make us test for them. I will probably test for them anyway as soon as the tests are released to the labs for commercial use. Right now they are still in development. Also AQHA doesn't make a lot of money running these tests through the association. Other labs actually charge more for the same tests. AQHA does provide a service to house the records and make sure every test is verified as coming from the right animal. So we don't get screwed by crook trying to cheat the system.

These mutations happened 100's of years ago. Yes you're right, we've been dealing with them for many 100's of years in one form or another. Even Impressive wasn't the beginning of HYPP. His mother gave it to him and one of his siblings by a different stallion. (Boston Mac I think). The reason it was spread so fast and wide was his popularity.

Science is catching up with the problem. Many years ago horses weren't managed like they are now. Most horses weren't fed grain or at least not processed grain and not very much of it. They were used harder and more regularly. Pasture was the norm instead of the exception. And people were allowed to CULL any animals that had problems. Now we have to save them all or we're heartless monsters. There also people breeding horses who have no idea what they are doing.

If you knew Sparky Impression didn't have HYPP would you have bought him? That's the reason testing needs to be done. We can't just lump all horses into the same pile without testing. The passing of these disorders is very hit and miss. There are some that have a suspect loaded pedigree but they are clean.

Easy Rider - 2017-12-20 11:01 PM


And I am all for bettering the breed, so I get what you are saying. And no, my uneducated brain wouldn’t have bought him because when I heard the word Impressive I automatically thought HYPP and honestly didn’t even know what it was, just thought it had something wrong and didn’t know that some where negative for it, I labeled all the same. Shame on me but I didn’t know.
Was Boston MAC positive?
The whole thing is interesting to me now and I truly appreciate all everyone’s sharing on it all.

Another question, if a colt by a sire that is HYPP, tests N/N and they want to stand him, he will NOT pass that on, correct? I mean given the mares he is bred to are all HYPP N/N , those resulting babies are fine, correct?

I hear paint horses 6 panel, I don’t have paints but have friends that do
I wonder how many horses had one of these before there were names for it, ya know?

horsingaround - 2017-12-26 6:21 PM

There is a PSSM page on FB.  After reading about it I would not breed a positive horse. So far i don't have any that act like it so I haven't tested.  Our Stallion is  5 pannel  negitive . we bred a few of the show mares and had to send off hair BUT AQHA only tests for type 1 . from what I have red I am thinking they should test for type 2.  But after $100 a horse to test the 5 pannel it's hard to hope they require more. ours are third and 4th generation our herd so I think we have solid horses.  It would scare the crap out of me to buy one now

I would avoid blood lines with positive's like streaking six,  easy jet,  yellow jacket, waggoners rainy day, midnight, sugar bars to name a few.  



 

TwistedK - 2018-01-03 7:10 AM

The 5 panel testing is good and bad. Good because you know what you're getting. Bad because there can be surprises. I have a mare I bought as a yearling thinking she'd be N/N. I bred her. She had a stunning filly and the buyer of the filly wanted her tested. I knew my stud was N/N so I submitted the DNA on my mare for typing and 5 panel. She came back Herda/N meaning she carries one recessive copy. I was shocked. We tested the resulting filly and thank god this filly came back N/N for everything. I am on the fence as to if I will ever breed the mare again. She produced a VERY nice filly and that kills me. I have a handful of studs picked I'd love to cross her on.

OregonBR - 2018-01-02 12:44 PM

The carrier state only applies to a recessive disorder. PSSM is dominant. So even one copy of it can cause symptoms.

It's unknown at this time what causes some horses to have symptoms and some have mild or no symptoms. That's why I recommend people going to the PSSM page on facebook to get help with diet and exercise recommendations.

True story. MANY years ago when I was 12, I got a pinto yearling filly. She had unknown parentage. When I first got her I was pretty ignorant about all things to do with horses. My parents didn't know anything either. I rode her a lot and fed her like my dad fed his cows. Pasture when there was some and grass hay we raised on our own fields when there wasn't much growing. At some point I tried to feed her a little better because I was competing on her in speed events so I added some grain. She came out of winter pretty fluffy one year and when I started to leg her up, she tied up. We called the vet out and he told me not to grain her unless I rode her that day. He gave her an E-Se shot (vit E and selenium) and possibly he gave her a shot of something else for pain/soreness. I don't remember. So I did some reading and found that horses who tie up need selenium and where I live there was almost none in the soil. Selenium and Vit E are needed together to work properly. So I started buying alfalfa (high in vit E and selenium) from another area and giving an E-Se shot every spring when I started legging her up from the winter off. I was a kid and I LOVED to ride so I rode her a LOT. She never tied up again and was never lame ever. I had her until she was 13 when I had another horse who I was ready to replace her with. Looking back now, she probably had P1. All of the things I did were exactly what a P1 horse needs. Lots of exercise, very little if any grain and extra Vit E and selenium. The problem is caused by sugar/starch getting trapped in the muscle cells.

IME it's not a huge deal but I've always fed the way I fed that pinto mare. Grass hay/pasture, a flake of alfalfa a day, very little grain and I make sure to supplement for the lack of selenium in our soils. Since I haven't had a chronic case I had to manage, I really am not an authority on how to manage it in a highly symptomatic horse. I've personally never had another horse tie up and I've owned many over the years since.

Sorry I couldn't answer your question any better than that. Nobody knows how many horses have the gene that aren't symptomatic.

horsingaround - 2017-12-26 6:21 PM

There is a PSSM page on FB.  After reading about it I would not breed a positive horse. So far i don't have any that act like it so I haven't tested.  Our Stallion is  5 pannel  negitive . we bred a few of the show mares and had to send off hair BUT AQHA only tests for type 1 . from what I have red I am thinking they should test for type 2.  But after $100 a horse to test the 5 pannel it's hard to hope they require more. ours are third and 4th generation our herd so I think we have solid horses.  It would scare the crap out of me to buy one now

I would avoid blood lines with positive's like streaking six,  easy jet,  yellow jacket, waggoners rainy day, midnight, sugar bars to name a few.  



 

hannahbug - 2018-01-04 6:58 AM

I think one of the huge, huge problems with both warmbloods and quarter horses (and perhaps all breeding) is people that breed papers.

It doesn't matter how pretty the papers are or what a horse can win in a highly specialized division, if a mare can't stay sound doing a job for 3 years with no special maintenance, she's not breeding quality. And preferably much longer than that. She needs to prove herself, physically, emotionally, temperamentally. Breeding a mare at 3 so you can get a baby out of her while you wait for her to grow up some is an awful idea.

Claiming a post legged horse had a long show career and retired sound when he started at 2 and retired at 6 is silly. Breeding ugly because it wins is an awful practice.

12, 14, 16 should be considered the prime of a horse's career, and if it's not, there's something going on.

Breeding for longevity and soundness takes a much longer turnover time than breeding for money. There are people out there who do, but unfortunately in most things profit overshadows passion, and horses are no different.

OregonBR - 2018-01-04 9:04 AM


I had a big long reply started. But when I was proof reading it I just couldn't explain what I wanted to explain. So the short reply is you're not going to change the industry. Trying to find what you're suggesting we find is like hunting for unicorns. If and when they exist they are WAY out of most breeders budget. And even if we could find "proven" breeding stock that had been ridden until they were 20 years old, they may still have the P2 variants. AND by then their reproductive life is over.

I've been reading the PSSM page since 2014 and one thing I see every day are people with two horses, both with the same P. One is symptomatic and the other isn't. Until they can explain why, we have no chance to breed away from these problems. How can we choose better stock if they can't even tell us what that stock looks like?

People who aren't faced with trying to build/maintain a breeding business (it is a business) don't understand the challenges we are faced with. It takes 3-5 years from the purchase of a mare until you can get any idea if she's going to produce anything you want to keep producing. Many "proven" mares are not good broodmares. They don't have the strength of pedigree to reproduce what they may have been.

In theory what you say is nice. In a perfect world. But we live in a far from perfect world.

TwistedK - 2018-01-03 7:10 AM

The 5 panel testing is good and bad. Good because you know what you're getting. Bad because there can be surprises. I have a mare I bought as a yearling thinking she'd be N/N. I bred her. She had a stunning filly and the buyer of the filly wanted her tested. I knew my stud was N/N so I submitted the DNA on my mare for typing and 5 panel. She came back Herda/N meaning she carries one recessive copy. I was shocked. We tested the resulting filly and thank god this filly came back N/N for everything. I am on the fence as to if I will ever breed the mare again. She produced a VERY nice filly and that kills me. I have a handful of studs picked I'd love to cross her on.

OregonBR - 2018-01-03 3:57 PM

I was just reading a thread today on the PSSM page. The scientists have found up to 4 more genes that might have something to do with triggering the symptoms of a horse with one of the known genes which why some are symptomatic and some are not.

cheryl makofka - 2018-01-04 8:13 AM


All the new testing that Paul is doing has not been published in a scholarly journal. When I asked about this, I was told it would be published by the end of 2017, I am still awaiting the published results, as his sampling method is bias which could skew the results.
I have also read on the forum there has been one confirmed incorrect result, I wonder how many others were told they were positive or negative when they were actually negative.

The only reason the one was picked up as the individual tested the sire/dam/foal, the sire and dam were n across the board and the foal wasn't. This is a huge red flag on the testing methods as he says all DNA is tested twice.

As for the lines that you mentioned all are suspect, none have been confirmed positive. I honestly would take an easy jet horse any day of the week

madredepeanut - 2018-01-04 11:55 AM


I was also struggling with trying to condense a long reply into something short and sweet.

When the industry puts a huge focus and monetary value on horses that are started at two and performing at three, four and five- there’s definitely going to be an increase of horses needing maintenance, and that doesn’t always mean it’s a bad thing. I have terrible allergies and need daily medication and weekly shots, are you saying I shouldn’t reproduce because I need maintenance? I understand “survival of the fittest” and I do think we should not be perpetuating the cycle of breeding 5 panel positive horses, but I think you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Just because a mare is started young, competes and doesn’t end up lasting three years in that career field, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t breed her. There are plenty of mares that have lackluster careers, but go on to outproduce themselves, just like many stallions that have their careers cut short from injury and become million dollar sires.

Additionally, while certain things or confirmations can predispose horses to injury, not every injury is caused by those predispositions. Therefore, just because a horse may have become injured and cut their career short, that doesn’t mean the horse shouldn’t be breeding stock. What if a futurity winning mare has great conformation, but runs through a fence during a thunderstorm and has a career ending injury? Or a stakes winning racehorse develops a tooth and sinus infection that keeps her from ever running on the track again?

Every situation and breeding decision has to be taken on an individual basis.

ThreeCorners - 2018-01-05 7:02 AM

  I am waiting for the testing for PSSM2 to come out commercially. Does anyone know if UC Davis is working on it?

Easy Rider - 2018-01-05 8:10 AM


That is one they muscle biopsy right?
Whats the difference in the PSSM 1 and 2?

madredepeanut - 2018-01-05 11:02 AM

HA! You know what? I think he is N/N for allergies! I’m over here stuffed up one minute, breaking out in hives the next and sneezing up a storm, all while he is calm, cool and not a darn issue! I’d say he is prime breeding stock

I definitely think there are people quick to say “well, let’s just breed them.” But a lot more goes into the process for me, and I can understand where Hannah was coming from with the temperament, physical and emotional abilities. I wouldn’t want to breed a nutcase of a mare just because she is built well, nor would I breed some knock kneed conformationally unsound mare with amazing papers, but I do think everyone’s goals are different and having a breeding business is just that, a business. Horses are some people’s family members, whereas to other people they’re livestock, so it’s definitely not just a black and white answer.

As far as the P question, from what I understand, if the horse is n/P or P/n, they are the same thing. I haven’t been able to find any research saying one meant something different. The horse is still affected, whether they ever show symptoms or not. The P/n means they carry one copy of the gene (heterozygous), whereas the P/P means they carry both (homozygous).