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Location: Cocoa, Florida | I have a mare that has si issues, we’ve done acupuncture, chiropractic and even si injections, she holds up for a while then will get sore again. I ride her in a tammy treeless, she has a mutton either and flat strong back so it’s hard to find hard saddles that fit well. Someone suggested I ride her in a hard saddle since the treeless puts my weight straight on her back? Anyone have or had a horse with this issue? And does the treeless tend to make it worse?
Edit: when I got her she was being ridden in an ill fitting saddle and had the white spots on her withers, since I switched to treeless those have gone away.
Edited by RnRJack 2017-12-27 7:57 AM
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 Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| Interesting question. Watching because I have the same question. My horse seems to run harder in a treeless. I can't decide if his "seeming" to run harder or what I thought was his objection to a treed saddle (not striding out well) was really related to his foot pain and SI issues! It may be part of my wanting a different saddle because I really don't like my treeless.
Edited by azsun 2017-12-27 1:47 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | azsun - 2017-12-27 1:47 PM
Interesting question. Watching because I have the same question. My horse seems to run harder in a treeless. I can't decide if his "seeming" to run harder or what I thought was his objection to a treed saddle (not striding out well) was really related to his foot pain and SI issues! It may be part of my wanting a different saddle because I really don't like my treeless.
It took me a while to get used to my treeless also, now I feel weird if I don’t have a higher back & front, especially the back. I ride well in my treeless so I’m afraid if I switch I’m goong to have issues but I need to do what’s best for my horse. She is very catty and turns very quick (cutting bred) so I need something to help hold me in lol |
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 Saint Stacey
 
| I’d check out her neck. Chronic SI soreness can be an indication of neurological trauma. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Chronic sacroiliac pain can also be from suspensory pain. Just make sure the sacroiliac is the source of the problem and not secondary. Have they ever done a rectal ultrasound to see if there was a bone spur/arthritis or abnormalities? Or even a bone scan to see if there is boney inflammation in the sacroiliac or other areas contributing to it. Or do they think the sacroiliac joint dysfunction could be the ligament of the joint is strained? It is best to figure out the source. Obviously that is why you are asking about the saddle... I've been dealing with sacroiliac joint dysfunction on my good horse for over a year. It's been a long road. Her rehab was very important. I'd recommend strengthening your horses back along with all the other therapies you've been doing. What has helped me a lot is a lunging system called an equiami. It gets the horse working long and low. I used this while lunging along with going over ground poles for two months three times a week for 20 minutes before starting to ride again. I also did no loping until the three month Mark. Only walking and trotting in big circles. I've been riding now for 2 months but still no small circles. But like I said I'd first start with why your vet thinks there is si joint problems. Some horses that are down hill also are prone to sacroiliac joint pain. Here is a link to like what I did https://youtu.be/9Rbw-3KQ2DA
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2017-12-28 3:19 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Thank you for all this info! She has a slightly raised spot in her lower back/lumbar area from being flipped over as a filly. The vet said it’s more inflammation and wanted me to run her on bute (I won’t run on bute but I was told to order Tumerick). So I am ordering that as well. My vet first did chiropractic and lots of acupuncture on her lower back, he then suggested a few months later since everything else held up but that area to do si injections. I did see a difference in how she moved, way more free and ran harder. He says her neck and legs etc are all sound that the issue is si. She’s relatively young and this was her first year running.
I am having someone massage her tomorrow and laser/10a unit. I’m willing to try and do what I have to do to make her feel better.
I will save this post and read off the other possible options to him!
I don’t want to go out and buy a hard saddle right away unless I know for sure mine is making it worse. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| Have you x-rayed her back? I would be suspicious of kissing spine.
To answer your question, I do think a treeless can be harder on their back due to nothing dispersing the weight. Now I know people who have ran in them for years without problems but I know a lot of chiros believe that treeless saddles contribute to back issues. I think there is a lot of debate but to me, it makes sense why it would be harder on them. I ride in a flex tree which I feel is a little bit of the best of both worlds. |
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Saint Stacey
| RnRJack - 2017-12-28 11:33 AM
Thank you for all this info! She has a slightly raised spot in her lower back/lumbar area from being flipped over as a filly. The vet said it’s more inflammation and wanted me to run her on bute (I won’t run on bute but I was told to order Tumerick). So I am ordering that as well. My vet first did chiropractic and lots of acupuncture on her lower back, he then suggested a few months later since everything else held up but that area to do si injections. I did see a difference in how she moved, way more free and ran harder. He says her neck and legs etc are all sound that the issue is si. She’s relatively young and this was her first year running.
I am having someone massage her tomorrow and laser/10a unit. I’m willing to try and do what I have to do to make her feel better.
I will save this post and read off the other possible options to him!
I don’t want to go out and buy a hard saddle right away unless I know for sure mine is making it worse.
Unless you have done X-rays of her neck, I’m not sure how the vet can say your horse is ok.
The two chronic SI issues I’ve had, both of them were neck trauma. The first one finally turned into full blown wobblers and it eventually cost him his life. Going through wobblers is something I wouldn’t wish on anyone. Especially when they finally go down and can’t get up. It’s heartbreaking. It was a VERY hard lesson to learn. I had numerous vets tell me it was his SI. The SI was secondary.
The second one was very sore in his SI. The vet I used for him insisted we X-ray the neck. Upon xraying, it was discovered that he had two fractured vertebrae from being tied around and flipping. We injected via ultrasound and the SI was no longer sore. Had we not xrayed and simply treated the SI, I would have eventually had another full blown wobblers on my hands.
I’m not trying to be rude, but if you don’t X-ray the neck and back because your vet “thinks” everything is ok and doesn’t physically LOOK, in about 7 year don’t be surprised if you have a neurological wobblers on your hands. This isn’t something to screw around with or take lightly.
I have a friend that screwed around with a sore SI like you are doing because her vet said it was the SI. Again, it wasn’t and she ended up with the start of wobblers because of an old neck injury. A $15,000 NICE barrel horse is now a broodmare because of treating a sore SI until the real cause was found too late. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| RnRJack - 2017-12-28 12:33 PM
Thank you for all this info! She has a slightly raised spot in her lower back/lumbar area from being flipped over as a filly. The vet said it’s more inflammation and wanted me to run her on bute (I won’t run on bute but I was told to order Tumerick). So I am ordering that as well. My vet first did chiropractic and lots of acupuncture on her lower back, he then suggested a few months later since everything else held up but that area to do si injections. I did see a difference in how she moved, way more free and ran harder. He says her neck and legs etc are all sound that the issue is si. She’s relatively young and this was her first year running.
I am having someone massage her tomorrow and laser/10a unit. I’m willing to try and do what I have to do to make her feel better.
I will save this post and read off the other possible options to him!
I don’t want to go out and buy a hard saddle right away unless I know for sure mine is making it worse.
like others have said I'd x ray or do a bone scan to see where she has boney inflammation and then you'll know where to x ray. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | RnRJack - 2017-12-28 12:33 PM
Thank you for all this info! She has a slightly raised spot in her lower back/lumbar area from being flipped over as a filly. The vet said it’s more inflammation and wanted me to run her on bute (I won’t run on bute but I was told to order Tumerick). So I am ordering that as well. My vet first did chiropractic and lots of acupuncture on her lower back, he then suggested a few months later since everything else held up but that area to do si injections. I did see a difference in how she moved, way more free and ran harder. He says her neck and legs etc are all sound that the issue is si. She’s relatively young and this was her first year running.
I am having someone massage her tomorrow and laser/10a unit. I’m willing to try and do what I have to do to make her feel better.
I will save this post and read off the other possible options to him!
I don’t want to go out and buy a hard saddle right away unless I know for sure mine is making it worse.
Curious as to what you have against giving bute? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 383
| Check out vernon Purdy saddles - they are awesome and different than any other treed saddle out there- I’ve been through many saddles trying to help both my boys one of which I did a bone scan on because I wasn’t ever able to get him sound no matter what I did - his si was a major issue probably his biggest issue causing other problems ( tons of injections chiro acupuncture massages Etc Etc) I started him on dr schells curost total and fed according to his suggestions even though I was afraid to do whole oats I did exactly what he said and switched to a vernon Purdy saddle and it is absolutely unbelievable the difference in his soundness! I could go on and on about all the progressions that have come in the last few months and I truly believe it’s a combination of the 2 “ the curost the feed change” and the saddle if you look on his web page you can see other people testing the difference in their normal saddle and then his - they truly are totally different than any other saddle and they fit a very wide variety of horses they allow the horse to lift there back and stride out and gather sooooo much better than anything I have ridden in that also are a very deep seat yet you can get up out of them when needed! |
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Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| shilohorse - 2017-12-28 10:46 PM
Check out vernon Purdy saddles - they are awesome and different than any other treed saddle out there- I’ve been through many saddles trying to help both my boys one of which I did a bone scan on because I wasn’t ever able to get him sound no matter what I did - his si was a major issue probably his biggest issue causing other problems ( tons of injections chiro acupuncture massages Etc Etc) I started him on dr schells curost total and fed according to his suggestions even though I was afraid to do whole oats I did exactly what he said and switched to a vernon Purdy saddle and it is absolutely unbelievable the difference in his soundness! I could go on and on about all the progressions that have come in the last few months and I truly believe it’s a combination of the 2 “ the curost the feed change” and the saddle if you look on his web page you can see other people testing the difference in their normal saddle and then his - they truly are totally different than any other saddle and they fit a very wide variety of horses they allow the horse to lift there back and stride out and gather sooooo much better than anything I have ridden in that also are a very deep seat yet you can get up out of them when needed!
Thanks for posting this ... I'm going to look at those saddles. I'm wondering if this would help my guy. I ride in a treeless and always thought he did better with it but now loping I do more work than he does to keep him moving and he likes to lope with his head way down ... not just relaxed but it's hard to describe. |
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | So back to my original question (and I have taken all of the suggestions into consideration) when my performance vet gets back I will go into more detail with him about it.
Does the treeless cause more pain then riding in a saddle with bars? Either way neither saddle technically sits on the si I don’t believe but does anyone run a horse in a treeless with si issues? My mare has been sound and doing well for a couple months now since si injection, has been a different horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | I have thought about this quite a bit and cant link a connection between a treeless saddle and SI pain. I had a mare that had SI pain and I rode her with both a treeless and a treed saddle, the saddle made no difference. The SI arena is so deep in the horses hips/pelvis (?) my common sense cant link pain from a treeless. JMO |
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Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| watching ... same question. |
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 Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | Is she built a little bit butt high? I have never had a horse with SI issues, but know many who have and more times than not the horse is built down hill with their hip being higher than their wither. Could also explain the white hairs, as it's impossible to get a treed saddle to distribute weight evenly on a horse who runs downhill. All of the weight goes to the front of the saddle onto the shoulder.
Another thing I would look at is the length of toe your farrier may be leaving behind. Every farrier I have ever had wants to leave way too much toe behind (and in front really) rather than pulling the foot back. They want to use those "hind" shoes that are more triangular shaped. I would be sure that toe is pulled back as far as it needs to be and the foot is really pulled back under the horse all the way around, as that alone is enough to keep the SI, hind end, and back irritated.
Lastly, when you get your tumeric, be sure to also include a fat and pepperdine with it. Turmeric is fat soluble, meaning it is difficult to absorb without an added oil. Pepperdine increases the absorption as well. If you can find curcumin (or better yet, BCM-95 curcumin) rather than turmeric, that may be a better choice, as it's more absorbable and more potent and requires less to provide the anti-inflammatory properties you're needing. Here are a couple articles on this subject to better explain what i'm trying to say. :) http://www.curcuminforhealth.com/the-difference-between-turmeric-and-curcumin/ https://www.turmericforhealth.com/general-info/should-you-take-turmeric-or-curcumin-which-is-better
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | Herbie - 2018-01-11 12:53 PM
Is she built a little bit butt high? I have never had a horse with SI issues, but know many who have and more times than not the horse is built down hill with their hip being higher than their wither. Could also explain the white hairs, as it's impossible to get a treed saddle to distribute weight evenly on a horse who runs downhill. All of the weight goes to the front of the saddle onto the shoulder.
Another thing I would look at is the length of toe your farrier may be leaving behind. Every farrier I have ever had wants to leave way too much toe behind (and in front really) rather than pulling the foot back. They want to use those "hind" shoes that are more triangular shaped. I would be sure that toe is pulled back as far as it needs to be and the foot is really pulled back under the horse all the way around, as that alone is enough to keep the SI, hind end, and back irritated.
Lastly, when you get your tumeric, be sure to also include a fat and pepperdine with it. Turmeric is fat soluble, meaning it is difficult to absorb without an added oil. Pepperdine increases the absorption as well. If you can find curcumin (or better yet, BCM-95 curcumin) rather than turmeric, that may be a better choice, as it's more absorbable and more potent and requires less to provide the anti-inflammatory properties you're needing. Here are a couple articles on this subject to better explain what i'm trying to say. :) http://www.curcuminforhealth.com/the-difference-between-turmeric-and-curcumin/ https://www.turmericforhealth.com/general-info/should-you-take-turmeric-or-curcumin-which-is-better
She is downhill, just slightly but with her mutton wither (another reason I went to treeless) it was hard to find a good saddle fit. But she doesn’t have a huge hip on her like your typical downhill quarter horse. I LOVE my Tammy Fischer on her and really don’t want to change if I don’t have to.
As far as the turmeric, I feed with coco soya oil but will look into the other stuff as well!
If I can figure out how to add a pic of her and her feet I will, my farrier is good about cutting toe back. |
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 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | Been riding treeless for years now and have had zero issues due to the saddle.
Even now that I've gained weight, they don't seem to ever be back sore. That said, the hard to fit one was never back sore from a treed saddle, he stayed tight in his shoulders. |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Many back issues on a horse can be caused by a rider that has a back issue. When a rider has a back issue, sciatic nerve problem or having your hips out...you mirror that problem to your horse as it's almost impossible to ride with your weight distributed evenly.
It's easy to check to see if you are "out". Lay down on a flat service and have a friend take and bring your ankles together. Many riders have one leg longer then the other. If you have soreness on right side..it will cause soreness on your horse's left side.
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 Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | Nevertooold - 2018-01-11 4:45 PM Many back issues on a horse can be caused by a rider that has a back issue. When a rider has a back issue, sciatic nerve problem or having your hips out...you mirror that problem to your horse as it's almost impossible to ride with your weight distributed evenly.
It's easy to check to see if you are "out". Lay down on a flat service and have a friend take and bring your ankles together. Many riders have one leg longer then the other. If you have soreness on right side..it will cause soreness on your horse's left side.
Exactly. I saw this happen to Teal Rice when she was running Mijo. She was complaining about his back and her chiro said it is not him you have a problem with your back Tia. And she did. |
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Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | Nevertooold - 2018-01-11 4:45 PM
Many back issues on a horse can be caused by a rider that has a back issue. When a rider has a back issue, sciatic nerve problem or having your hips out...you mirror that problem to your horse as it's almost impossible to ride with your weight distributed evenly.
It's easy to check to see if you are "out". Lay down on a flat service and have a friend take and bring your ankles together. Many riders have one leg longer then the other. If you have soreness on right side..it will cause soreness on your horse's left side.
This is SO true. I've been getting frustrated riding my husband's colt. He knows all the buttons, but is still young and needs guidance. I was having to fight him to pick up the right lead, hubby could get on him and he was perfect.
Well I finally realized I'm all out of whack...my finished horses are just kinda ignoring my mixed signals bc they know what to do. My hips are telling him "left" pretty much at all times. I have not been able to get to the chiro, but at least knowing the issue has made a huge difference - I can at least compensate for it to effectively ride him. And he was 1000xs better. |
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Treeless saddles and SI issues????