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Expert
Posts: 2685
   
| So amongst my saddle shopping adventure, I have seen a ton of 8”+ gullet sizes. I have also seen many different ideas of what area is the “gullet” on a saddle (how high/low the measurement is).
All of the older saddles I have seen are a 6&3/4-7” gullet which is how wide the top of the bars on the tree are. Now I am seeing 8,9, even 10”. My question is are these measurements really the top of the bars? Are there horses out there with 10” wide withers?!
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Yes and no.
I’d put money on 90% of the saddle ads I see having incorrect gullet measurements, especially in the $1500 and under price point. Folks want to measure right across the front, even though the tree stops just in front of the conchos. Between the conchos or across the top for some makers is as close as you can get to accurate but I also believe you need to know what you’re looking for - ex I just sold a triple creek, it wasn’t stamped with a tree size but I know their reg is a 6.5 and their full is a . I knew based on the measurements I was wider than 6.5, it was close to 7”. I REALLY wish maker’s would start to stamp tree models on their saddles, or at minimum keep track with a serial number system. It would make the used saddle market a lot more accurate...but new saddle makers aren’t necessarily out to help the used market.
A few makers do make 8” gullets, Caldwell I believe is one of them. Martin’s Axis trees go even bigger than that, but the placement of the saddle is different so the point of the back that is ends up being measured is different, father back. I know in the BTR they went away from the Axis, I don’t know about the new Stingray. Gullet means far less IMO than the bar measurements and shape. But a lot of people get caught up in the gullet and think they need to go wide wide wide and end up with a saddle that dumps down on their horses front end.
Jeff Smith has some really interesting comments on gullet width. A 7” is their x-wide for a C3 and available by custom order only. But they have more bar flare than a lot of other makers that will accommodate the bigger shoulders and strong, broad toplines that we’re breeding into horses today.
Truth saddlery has a great info graphic that they posted to their Facebook page not long ago showing how you can have the same gullet width with different bar angles/spreads to end up with a very different saddle fit. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 863
| I also get a chuckle out of all these barrel racers around me and I'm sure other parts of the country that buy a 9 or 10" gullet and then HEY we gotta SHIM the saddle to get it to fit because that's what my saddle fitter tells me! Ummm sure ok  |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| the way i did my search was making a cardboard cut out of horse's withers, right where I would put the saddle (behind his shoulder) and took that to town (OKC). At NRS I was able to try it on a few different current brands and the only fit was a "standard crown c" which was a 7" gullet with FQHB. It was the only saddle that fit perfectly. Others I could maybe pad to fit but that's not what I want to do. That being said..... Do I buy wider? The horse is 3. He won't be getting any narrower..... He is wide-ish but he is FLAT across the back. Like riding a couch bareback, and I have his younger brother so I'll be riding another in a few years. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Wild1 - 2018-01-07 12:53 PM
I also get a chuckle out of all these barrel racers around me and I'm sure other parts of the country that buy a 9 or 10" gullet and then HEY we gotta SHIM the saddle to get it to fit because that's what my saddle fitter tells me! Ummm sure ok
Martins brought in the shimming, and it has to do with the saddle placement. To understand it, you need to have a certified Martin dealer explain it while fitting your horse.
I have 2 horses that fit a 10" (she is 4 yrs old) and an 11" (full grown) and I don't need to shim.
To the op, majority of horses haven't changed that much, saddles have changed that much. The tree manufacturer started making more narrow trees, especially on barrel racing as the stereotype was more thoroughbred style.
Now people are just being more conscious of what they are doing to their horse and now caring about saddle fit. |
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Location: Middle TN | I have a 9" gullet for my boy. I have to shim it a little after winter break then within a month back to work he's filled it out and by the end of the season I'm sometimes wishing I had gotten a 10". I think Cheri Cervi rides Stingray with a 10" and would have to do the same thing with her - she must know what she's doing since she has qualified for the NFR 19 times. |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Wild1 - 2018-01-07 12:53 PM I also get a chuckle out of all these barrel racers around me and I'm sure other parts of the country that buy a 9 or 10" gullet and then HEY we gotta SHIM the saddle to get it to fit because that's what my saddle fitter tells me! Ummm sure ok
Best marketing ploy ever................. |
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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | gullet size is such a minimal piece of saddle fit. It's the bar angle/twist/flare/rock etc. You can get a saddle with a 7" gullet that will pinch and injure the back just as a 10" will. But saddle makers just convince everyone that if the 7" won't fit, get an 8 or a 10 etc etc. It's rediculous, saddle fit has nearly everything to do with the bars and very little to do with the gullet. http://saddlemakers.org/id193.htm |
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 The One
Posts: 7998
Location: South Georgia | I wish there was some way to "standardize" the terminology/stats for bar angles, or flare, or rock, etc. so that it was easier to know what to look for rather than this lengthy and expensive process of elimination.
Edited by horsegirl 2018-01-08 11:36 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| horsegirl - 2018-01-08 11:23 AM
I wish there was some way to "standardize" the terminology/stats for bar angles, or flare, or rock, etc. so that it was easier to know what to look for rather than this lengthy and expensive process of elimination.
Yes! Gullet MEASUREMENTS can be standardized because it’s a measurement but my problem is the angle of the bars! A FQHB in one saddle could be equal to a semi in another! I HATE shopping over the internet! |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I've been in the same boat. Shopping for my 3 year old who is like you said wide-ish but flat backed. I spoke to multiple companies at the NFR and multiple friends. I kept getting the same 3 saddles (within a reasonable budget anyway). Just bought one of the three, fingers crossed it fits. But I do think Gullet is far too overemphasized because for my mare, it isn't necessarily the gullet but the angle to the bars. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | The answer is no horses are not that wide through the withers. If you look at those saddles with huge gullets you’ll notice how the bars of the tree is way further down from the swells (that probably doesn’t make sense but I don’t know the best way to describe it) and how they have a huge rise in the front of the seat. That’s because the bars of the tree sit down further on the horses back, not on top of the withers like most 6-7 inch gullet saddles. Even my saddles with a 7” sit slightly further down on the withers than a standard (6.5”). In my experience on a flatter horse that’s a good thing because when they are perched up at the top that’s when you get the rolling, but obviously the angle of the bars and the rock all plays into that too. I think when you get way too wide it’s a recipe for disaster, but apparently it works for some.
And then you just have people who are clueless and uneducated and think they have a double j with an 8” gullet (their widest is a 7”) or they need a 9 inch gullet for $600 or less........I don’t see any martins or Caldwell’s go that cheap! Unless they are old and worn out and were made way prior to the wide gullet revolution. |
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 Expert
Posts: 3815
Location: The best kept secret in TX | cheryl makofka - 2018-01-07 9:27 PM Wild1 - 2018-01-07 12:53 PM I also get a chuckle out of all these barrel racers around me and I'm sure other parts of the country that buy a 9 or 10" gullet and then HEY we gotta SHIM the saddle to get it to fit because that's what my saddle fitter tells me! Ummm sure ok Martins brought in the shimming, and it has to do with the saddle placement. To understand it, you need to have a certified Martin dealer explain it while fitting your horse. I have 2 horses that fit a 10" (she is 4 yrs old ) and an 11" (full grown ) and I don't need to shim. To the op, majority of horses haven't changed that much, saddles have changed that much. The tree manufacturer started making more narrow trees, especially on barrel racing as the stereotype was more thoroughbred style. Now people are just being more conscious of what they are doing to their horse and now caring about saddle fit.
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Martin wanted people to believe their "certified" dealers (which, let's be honest, any person who sells their saddles wants you to buy so they'll sell you anything) because they were the first to really capitalize on the gullet measurements and barrel horse industry. They are the reason people who are uneducated about saddle trees and tree measurements fall for the 10" gullet scheme. There is no horse in the indistry who needs a saddle that will fit a baby elephant. I don't care what Martin says. It's a scheme to get you to buy extra products to make one product fit.
Think of the tree like a upside down v. Like this: ^ If I widen the bars without widening the top I can fit a variety of horses easily... This is why many tack dealers stock 6 3/4 or 7" gullets with different bar angles. If I leave the bar angle the same and move the top only I get no where. Martins trees have about the same bar angle. It's a marketing ploy. Any previous Martin Employee, Martin dealer who is being honest, or saddle maker/tree maker will tell you that. Heck, Martin's new saddles that only go to 8 1/2" gullets will telly ou that. It's marketing at it's finest. Do you see huge rope horses in 10" gullets? No? Why? because they don't exist. Why? because they aren't needed.
Edited by IRunOnFaith 2018-01-08 4:35 PM
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| IRunOnFaith - 2018-01-08 4:32 PM
cheryl makofka - 2018-01-07 9:27 PM Wild1 - 2018-01-07 12:53 PM I also get a chuckle out of all these barrel racers around me and I'm sure other parts of the country that buy a 9 or 10" gullet and then HEY we gotta SHIM the saddle to get it to fit because that's what my saddle fitter tells me! Ummm sure ok Martins brought in the shimming, and it has to do with the saddle placement. To understand it, you need to have a certified Martin dealer explain it while fitting your horse. I have 2 horses that fit a 10" (she is 4 yrs old ) and an 11" (full grown ) and I don't need to shim. To the op, majority of horses haven't changed that much, saddles have changed that much. The tree manufacturer started making more narrow trees, especially on barrel racing as the stereotype was more thoroughbred style. Now people are just being more conscious of what they are doing to their horse and now caring about saddle fit.
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Martin wanted people to believe their "certified" dealers (which, let's be honest, any person who sells their saddles wants you to buy so they'll sell you anything) because they were the first to really capitalize on the gullet measurements and barrel horse industry. They are the reason people who are uneducated about saddle trees and tree measurements fall for the 10" gullet scheme. There is no horse in the indistry who needs a saddle that will fit a baby elephant. I don't care what Martin says. It's a scheme to get you to buy extra products to make one product fit.
Think of the tree like a upside down v. Like this: ^ If I widen the bars without widening the top I can fit a variety of horses easily... This is why many tack dealers stock 6 3/4 or 7" gullets with different bar angles. If I leave the bar angle the same and move the top only I get no where. Martins trees have about the same bar angle. It's a marketing ploy. Any previous Martin Employee, Martin dealer who is being honest, or saddle maker/tree maker will tell you that. Heck, Martin's new saddles that only go to 8 1/2" gullets will telly ou that. It's marketing at it's finest. Do you see huge rope horses in 10" gullets? No? Why? because they don't exist. Why? because they aren't needed.
The big difference between the crown c/fx3 and a calf roping saddles is the placement of the saddle. The crown c is designed to be farther back behind the shoulder blades. I have crown c saddles, and I have other brand of saddles, and yes the crown c saddles sit farther back.
Also the angle of the bars are different in calf roping saddles, versus barrel saddles, and in a perfect world I would love that degree of bars to be available in a barrel saddle.
As I said you need to sit down with Brian and Tracey and understand the concept of the saddle, I'll admit I was skeptical till they explained it, and they never pushed their product on me. I am happy that I switched as I went from a cold backed horse to an angel because of the switch to the crown c.
As with any saddle manufacturer/dealer everything they do is a marketing ploy. The flex tree, the carbon fibre tree.
I haven't ordered a saddle from crown c since 2015, so I am not aware of the limitation on the size of gullet, but I do know they did switch tree manufacturers and this may be the reason they can no longer go that big.
As for the BTR (flex tree I believe) and I don't know the other saddles that they have just put out, they are a company, owned by tucker saddlery who owns billy cook from Oklahoma, circle y, and a few others. They are trying to appeal to a different group of barrel racers, it is business, it doesn't mean one is superior to the other, they are just giving more options in hopes people will jump ship from double j, Sloan, coats, semae, etc
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | I think a lot of folks seriously over think saddle fit
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | 1DSoon - 2018-01-08 7:45 PM
I think a lot of folks seriously over think saddle fit
I agree!!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| TheDutchMan01 - 2018-01-08 8:08 PM
1DSoon - 2018-01-08 7:45 PM
I think a lot of folks seriously over think saddle fit
I agree!!!!
i think people have horses with atrophy in their backs and don't realize it because they under think saddle fit. That's a surface that takes a lot of pressure and a lot of pounding. I feel its very important to keep that surface flush with the back of the animal its on, and none of my 3 horses have the same backs so i wouldn't expect the same saddle/pad combo to work. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | I used to think the same thing, until you have one that dumps your butt and then another one does the same thing. One is a ranch horse we raised and had atrophy behind the shoulder the other was a show horse with a princess mentality. Found saddles that fit both and problem was solved. I think if you are just trail riding at a walk, you will get away with a saddle that doesn't fit. Same with most barrel racers that ride 20 minutes in the arena twice a week. But those that put a lot of time in a saddle and have a horse that isn't as tolerant as others will have issues. |
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| Saddles have not changed that much!! It's the one (mostly) company that went to elephant gullets that RUINED the market!!
The part that has changed is that everyone THINKS they know how to measure a saddle and they DON'T! There is NO such thing as an 8 inch Circle Y, Billy Cook, Double T, Blah, blah, blah saddle unless you are talking about 2 things! Martin OR DRAFT tree!
Many times, standard is 6.5, wide is 6.75, and huge is 7. Not to mention, gullet is only a very small piece of the pie, as was mentioned above. Bar angle, rock, etc are just a few more pieces of the pie! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 883
Location: Southern Indiana | RoaniePonie11 - 2018-01-09 5:14 AM
TheDutchMan01 - 2018-01-08 8:08 PM
1DSoon - 2018-01-08 7:45 PM
I think a lot of folks seriously over think saddle fit
I agree!!!!
i think people have horses with atrophy in their backs and don't realize it because they under think saddle fit. That's a surface that takes a lot of pressure and a lot of pounding. I feel its very important to keep that surface flush with the back of the animal its on, and none of my 3 horses have the same backs so i wouldn't expect the same saddle/pad combo to work.
I don't disagree at all that saddle fit is very important and you should pay attention to soreness/atrophy. If they are sore or cold backed...then you probably need to evaluate your saddle fit. I just think some people overthink and worry too much when they see dry spots. Its easy to get caught up in a perfect fit when it's probably not gonna happen. I think that's when uneducated people jump to the conclusion that they need a wider gullet. |
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 Just a Yankee
Posts: 1239
Location: Some where I haven't left yet | wyoming barrel racer - 2018-01-08 9:18 AM gullet size is such a minimal piece of saddle fit. It's the bar angle/twist/flare/rock etc. You can get a saddle with a 7" gullet that will pinch and injure the back just as a 10" will. But saddle makers just convince everyone that if the 7" won't fit, get an 8 or a 10 etc etc. It's rediculous, saddle fit has nearly everything to do with the bars and very little to do with the gullet. http://saddlemakers.org/id193.htm
^^ THIS ^^ Every Word. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Nateracer - 2018-01-09 11:48 AM
Saddles have not changed that much!! It's the one (mostly) company that went to elephant gullets that RUINED the market!!
The part that has changed is that everyone THINKS they know how to measure a saddle and they DON'T! There is NO such thing as an 8 inch Circle Y, Billy Cook, Double T, Blah, blah, blah saddle unless you are talking about 2 things! Martin OR DRAFT tree!
Many times, standard is 6.5, wide is 6.75, and huge is 7. Not to mention, gullet is only a very small piece of the pie, as was mentioned above. Bar angle, rock, etc are just a few more pieces of the pie!
Not exactly true.
The circle y Lisa Lockhart extra wide was a 8" gullet, with a 120 degree bar. This was before Martin came out with their wide gullets.
I hear the extra wide became the wide, but I don't know that for sure. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 682
Location: Northwest | Stoney has a really interesting video on understanding gullets |
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Gullet sizes are much bigger now than they used to be. Have horses really changed that much??