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Member
Posts: 25
| My farrier noticed my gelding standing cross legged at the cross ties a couple weeks ago, he pushed him over and he corrected himself and he tried to cross his legs again and he immediately corrected himself one way but stood crossed with the other leg the other way for a second then finally corrected himself.
Now im worried i may have an EPM case on my hands. horse isnt dropping weight or anything that would make me think something was wrong. He's plump and seems happy. He did, however, 'stumble' in his stall the other day which really made me paranoid. the mats are rolling up on the ends so i didnt get to see if he actually tripped or what. He's def a little pigeon toed if that matters.
Anyways... do people just treat just because? What are small symptoms? if i did treat should i treat with the same dosages as a horse with actual confirmed EPM? I have alwasy heard that all horses carry EPM so thought id ask fellow BHW members! :) | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
 
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I’d have a vet look at him. Depending on where you live, WNV may need to be ruled out as well. We had a colt develop neurological symptoms a couple months ago and started EPM treatment right away. His titers were positive for WNV, and he quickly recovered. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 233
| If it's epm, you'll want to treat sooner rather than later. I'll let other people debate marquis vs decoquinate, but google, talk to your vet, and don't wait. time can mean the difference between recovery and pasture pet. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
 
| Pull on his tail- it's an easy diagnosis. If you can pull on his tail from each side and can pull his hip to the side (he will take a step with his hind leg too) then it's probable. One side is usually worse than the other. I live in Texas and decided that I'm treating all of mine for 30 days once a year. If they are neurologically symptomatic they get 60 days. Just too common here- and all of my horses have shown symptoms at one point in their lives. We have a compounding Pharmacy here that can get 30 days of oral suspension to you for $185
Edited by lopnaround 2018-01-22 3:53 PM
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| It could really be anything that causes neurologic symptoms. I would absolutely be taking him to the vet for a neuro and physical exam, plus bloodwork. | |
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 To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Never heard or seen crossing legs in EPM. Sounds more like flies or an itch or maybe a sore foot. I would check for an absess before obsessing. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I’m really curious. Do most vets recommend a month of empirical EPM treatment in certain states every year as a matter of routine practice?
Is there anything supporting this practice?
My second question is how reliable is immunity to EPM once a horse has been exposed? | |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| Bear - 2018-01-22 6:30 PM
I’m really curious. Do most vets recommend a month of empirical EPM treatment in certain states every year as a matter of routine practice?
Is there anything supporting this practice?
My second question is how reliable is immunity to EPM once a horse has been exposed?
I don’t know how routine, but I have heard of people treating every year, especially on a horse who’s had a confirmed case.
My understanding is also that once they have it they will always be a blood carrier. They can relapse if the protozoa cross the blood-neuro barrier again. I had one I treated and 2 or 3 years later he relapsed and we treated again. | |
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | OhMax - 2018-01-22 7:36 PM
Bear - 2018-01-22 6:30 PM
I’m really curious. Do most vets recommend a month of empirical EPM treatment in certain states every year as a matter of routine practice?
Is there anything supporting this practice?
My second question is how reliable is immunity to EPM once a horse has been exposed?
I don’t know how routine, but I have heard of people treating every year, especially on a horse who’s had a confirmed case.
My understanding is also that once they have it they will always be a blood carrier. They can relapse if the protozoa cross the blood-neuro barrier again. I had one I treated and 2 or 3 years later he relapsed and we treated again.
^^^This is exactly what I've heard. Lula Bell's barrel gelding was diagnosed previously, and when they see small things showing up they will treat again before it gets out of hand. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| If treatment suspensions hadn't gotten as reasonable as they have, I wouldn't do it. But- stress will bring it back, so for me treating before busy hauling season works great. | |
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Member
Posts: 25
| I live in GA. Im going to try the tail deal today. Ive heard that stress can make EPM flare up, but hes been turned out sense november so i dont think thats the case either. He was just at the vet not even 6 month ago for his hock injections and they of course did a physical exam where she said he looked wonderful other than a little stiffness in one of his back hocks, she even put emphasis on how great his front end look and how happy he seemed.
Edited by chandler321 2018-01-23 9:30 AM
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 Off the Wall Wacky
Posts: 2981
Location: Louisiana | When I was younger my sister had a gelding that would cross his front legs at the trailer when it was time to saddle.
The horse would then hold his breath, and if you tightened the saddle all at once he would pass out.
Looking back now at him, and all I know now...he had the typical signs of ulcers - practically flashing a neon ULCER sign, but we just weren't near as educated back then. From his demeanor every day, to this habit he had during saddling he was obviously in pain.
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Member
Posts: 28
| chandler321 - 2018-01-23 9:25 AM
I live in GA. Im going to try the tail deal today. Ive heard that stress can make EPM flare up, but hes been turned out sense november so i dont think thats the case either. He was just at the vet not even 6 month ago for his hock injections and they of course did a physical exam where she said he looked wonderful other than a little stiffness in one of his back hocks, she even put emphasis on how great his front end look and how happy he seemed.
Stress can cause EPM to flare up or as in our case stifle and hock injections with cortisone can cause EPM to flare up. Our good gelding was injected on a Wednesday vet said he would be ok to trip 3 steers saturday and that ended in a career ending injury to a back leg because his epm (we didnt know he had) flared up and he lost control of his left hind. Now looking back at the day he was injected at Oakridge Equine in Guthrie OK by Mike Majors he showed all the symptoms of EPM he jumped and kicked at him when he did his lameness (which that horse has never kicked a day in his life, but he ran his hand over an EPM point) and he said Oh he must be really sore in his stifles. SO they injected stifles and hocks (he was due for hocks too). When the injury happened we rushed him almost 3 hours back to said vet they couldnt tell us what his injury was all why he showed more symptoms (he was erect) the entire time during xrays, ultrasound, etc. Told us to put him in a stall and bring him back in 3 weeks well that did not set well with me. We believed there was something more he got poor within the matter of a week his hair coat was crunchy and lost all color his tail fell out, so I took him to another vet Thankfully as soon as we walked in he said well our main problem is EPM so we treated him with Toterzouil (sp) oral suspension and then he stays on Collidial Silver to help with a relapse. Long story short our now vet said he could have had it for a long time but when he was injected with Cortisone it weakened everything enough the EPM came out in full force! Sorry for the long story but If I can keep someone else from going through what we did I will! | |
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| chandler321 - 2018-01-23 7:25 AM
I live in GA. Im going to try the tail deal today. Ive heard that stress can make EPM flare up, but hes been turned out sense november so i dont think thats the case either. He was just at the vet not even 6 month ago for his hock injections and they of course did a physical exam where she said he looked wonderful other than a little stiffness in one of his back hocks, she even put emphasis on how great his front end look and how happy he seemed.
We dealt with a horse that had pretty bad arthritis in his hocks, and he would cross his hind legs because it was more comfortable for him to stand that way than stand normal. Is the crossing of his legs in the front or hind end? If it is his hind end, it could very well be his hocks getting stiff again, especially with the crazy weather happening (as arthritis can flare up due to weather and amount of exercise).
Also, just because he was seen approximately ssix months ago, doesn't mean he's still the same today. If you were seen by your doctor half a year ago, but then today you noticed a new concerning issue and were worried, would you go to the doctor or just think that since you were healthy 6 months ago, you're good to go? Things can change rapidly, and go downhill even quicker. If it is something treatable, it is better to have it looked at sooner rather than later.
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Member
Posts: 25
| Okay, i did the tail test and he didnt budge either ways. I also took him to open arena and he rode around great, other than a little less reactive to his left said but i would assme that is because he's been off his November.
I feel like if the hock injections were the cause it would have became a problem sooner, because i had them done and ran him at some open shows a handful of times with no problems.
His coat isnt dull nothing that would make me think he had EPM, other than the leg crossing (front legs) and the stumble in his stall.
If i decide to treat just because should i treat the same as if with a horse that has confirmed EPM? | |
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 Namesless in BHW
Posts: 10368
Location: At the race track with Ah Dee Ohs | chandler321 - 2018-01-24 8:12 AM Okay, i did the tail test and he didnt budge either ways. I also took him to open arena and he rode around great, other than a little less reactive to his left said but i would assme that is because he's been off his November.
I feel like if the hock injections were the cause it would have became a problem sooner, because i had them done and ran him at some open shows a handful of times with no problems.
His coat isnt dull nothing that would make me think he had EPM, other than the leg crossing (front legs) and the stumble in his stall.
If i decide to treat just because should i treat the same as if with a horse that has confirmed EPM?
I would treat the same way. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin | If you have any concerns about EPM, I would have your vet test for it, the sooner, the better. I am going through this right now with my daughter's horse. She "passed" the tail test. Her only sympton was that she developed a "sticky" stifle at the lope. Our vet sent a blood sample to Pathogenes Inc in Reddick FL. I can't remember the cost but it was not much. They test SAG 1, SAG 5 and SAG 6. They should be less than 4. Our horse had 8, 8 and 16. Anything 16 and over indicates an active EPM infection. They also test for CRP. That reading should be less than 16. Our horse was 28. (Anything 16 to 99 is elevated.) We finished treatment last week with Orogin. The vet will draw blood and she will be re-tested in 30 days. I pray to God that she will recover. I wished I would have tested her several months earlier, but after treating her stifle, and clean x-rays and and a ultrasound, decided to test for EPM. Do the test and then you know for sure what you are dealing with. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| Hmmm- I have never had a horse with EPM signs not be positive to the tail test. If his body condition looks really good and and his coat is shiny...I'd look for other reasons.
Maybe others have had different experiences? | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 542
| Just treat.
Don't gamble with it.
We even see a horse weak in their hind end or not using it we treat. All horses have it, just random chance events, stress, or accidents bring it out. Different vets have different theories and some are recommending bi-yearly treatment. Don't have cats around that you aren't worming or at least on some short of protocol for disease control. The cutting people have gotten super sketchy about it and most will treat the whole barn once they suspect one of having it. Find a good compounding company that you like and trust and go with their mix of treatment based off of your vet's recommendation.
Although unpopular I'm of the opinion to just assume they all got ulcers and they all have EPM. You better just manage them right and treat to keep the two at bay.
Edited by runfastturnsmooth 2018-01-24 12:02 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1599
| runfastturnsmooth - 2018-01-24 12:01 PM Just treat. Don't gamble with it. We even see a horse weak in their hind end or not using it we treat. All horses have it, just random chance events, stress, or accidents bring it out. Different vets have different theories and some are recommending bi-yearly treatment. Don't have cats around that you aren't worming or at least on some short of protocol for disease control. The cutting people have gotten super sketchy about it and most will treat the whole barn once they suspect one of having it. Find a good compounding company that you like and trust and go with their mix of treatment based off of your vet's recommendation. Although unpopular I'm of the opinion to just assume they all got ulcers and they all have EPM. You better just manage them right and treat to keep the two at bay.
This is true too. | |
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 Some Kind of Trouble
Posts: 4430
| From someone with a permanently "damaged" EPM horse who passed the tail test and looked great and saw 4 vets who didn't diagnose.... either just treat or get to a vet who knows what a proper neurological exam is ASAP. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin | Dodge 629, If you don't mind sharing, can you tell us what your horse was doing, how long before you started treatment and what was the lasting damage. Our mare, looked great and moves fine at the walk and trot. Thank you. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| I'm very confused with some of the comments on this post. EPM is a neurological issue, attacks the nervous system, which causes the uncoordinated movements, lose of feeling, muscle atrophy, along with other neuro effects. A horse that is experiencing pain wouldn't scream EPM to me at first. Yes they get sore, but usually from over compensating from the lack of feeling somewhere else. If lameness is the only thing happening, no neurological symptoms, I would be looking for other reasons first. Just crossing one's legs wouldn't make me suspect EPM either, it would be a combination of unexplainable symptoms. The stumbling is usually consistent, they don't usually stumble once and then never again.
I have treated two horses for EPM. One I went and had a muscle biopsy done to confirm. He had visible muscle atrophy and stumbling in the hind end. When running a pin over the left side he had very little reaction to none.
The other, came off the track, had been treated before for it and I kind of did a blind faith with the treatment. He was loosing weight rapidly, been treated for Ulcers, drooping of the right side of his face. Once I treated he improved.
I feel like EPM has become a catch all. Yes, its very common, but I think we sometimes rush to EPM way to quickly.
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Some Kind of Trouble
Posts: 4430
| FlyingJT - 2018-01-24 12:18 PM I'm very confused with some of the comments on this post. EPM is a neurological issue, attacks the nervous system, which causes the uncoordinated movements, lose of feeling, muscle atrophy, along with other neuro effects. A horse that is experiencing pain wouldn't scream EPM to me at first. Yes they get sore, but usually from over compensating from the lack of feeling somewhere else. If lameness is the only thing happening, no neurological symptoms, I would be looking for other reasons first. Just crossing one's legs wouldn't make me suspect EPM either, it would be a combination of unexplainable symptoms. The stumbling is usually consistent, they don't usually stumble once and then never again. I have treated two horses for EPM. One I went and had a muscle biopsy done to confirm. He had visible muscle atrophy and stumbling in the hind end. When running a pin over the left side he had very little reaction to none. The other, came off the track, had been treated before for it and I kind of did a blind faith with the treatment. He was loosing weight rapidly, been treated for Ulcers, drooping of the right side of his face. Once I treated he improved. I feel like EPM has become a catch all. Yes, its very common, but I think we sometimes rush to EPM way to quickly.
My gelding's neuro symptoms were so miniscule to start with that it went unnoticed. His first and largest sign ever shown was tension through his lower back. He never stumbled, never crossed his legs.. he was not typical. It was nearly a year of vets before someone did an in-depth neuro exam, which he did fail but not in a gigantic way. The reason to rush is because the damage can be irreversible, as my horses is. I would have much rather took a leap of faith and treated a year earlier if it would have prevented the damage to him. | |
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Some Kind of Trouble
Posts: 4430
| pepsi - 2018-01-24 12:06 PM Dodge 629, If you don't mind sharing, can you tell us what your horse was doing, how long before you started treatment and what was the lasting damage. Our mare, looked great and moves fine at the walk and trot. Thank you.
He was tense through his lower back, just gradually getting worse despite chiro, accupuncture, etc. He started looking "roach backed".. went through saddle fit, pelvis issues, all the usual suspects.. vets said it may take time, did exercises, therapy, BOT blanket, etc. Then it went to laziness, unwillingness to work. His right hind leg is effected. It was hard to see until now when I know what I'm looking at. Most noticeable when you back him from the ground and watch the path of his hindlegs... he has never ever backed straight and that's why. It's also noticeable at a lope on a circle, that leg will gradually fall off cadence and every now and then, there's a skip where he has to "catch up" with it. It was over a year before he was diagnosed and treated. Within a couple of weeks, the tension fell out of his back. And he quit beating up my other horses (another symptom.. aggression!). | |
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Veteran
Posts: 174
Location: Wisconsin | Dodge629 - 2018-01-24 1:39 PM pepsi - 2018-01-24 12:06 PM Dodge 629, If you don't mind sharing, can you tell us what your horse was doing, how long before you started treatment and what was the lasting damage. Our mare, looked great and moves fine at the walk and trot. Thank you. He was tense through his lower back, just gradually getting worse despite chiro, accupuncture, etc. He started looking "roach backed".. went through saddle fit, pelvis issues, all the usual suspects.. vets said it may take time, did exercises, therapy, BOT blanket, etc. Then it went to laziness, unwillingness to work. His right hind leg is effected. It was hard to see until now when I know what I'm looking at. Most noticeable when you back him from the ground and watch the path of his hindlegs... he has never ever backed straight and that's why. It's also noticeable at a lope on a circle, that leg will gradually fall off cadence and every now and then, there's a skip where he has to "catch up" with it. It was over a year before he was diagnosed and treated. Within a couple of weeks, the tension fell out of his back. And he quit beating up my other horses (another symptom.. aggression!).
Thank you for sharing. I agree with your advise. If you think there is any chance that it may be EPM, get them tested. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | FlyingJT - 2018-01-24 1:18 PM
I'm very confused with some of the comments on this post. EPM is a neurological issue, attacks the nervous system, which causes the uncoordinated movements, lose of feeling, muscle atrophy, along with other neuro effects. A horse that is experiencing pain wouldn't scream EPM to me at first. Yes they get sore, but usually from over compensating from the lack of feeling somewhere else. If lameness is the only thing happening, no neurological symptoms, I would be looking for other reasons first. Just crossing one's legs wouldn't make me suspect EPM either, it would be a combination of unexplainable symptoms. The stumbling is usually consistent, they don't usually stumble once and then never again.
I have treated two horses for EPM. One I went and had a muscle biopsy done to confirm. He had visible muscle atrophy and stumbling in the hind end. When running a pin over the left side he had very little reaction to none.
The other, came off the track, had been treated before for it and I kind of did a blind faith with the treatment. He was loosing weight rapidly, been treated for Ulcers, drooping of the right side of his face. Once I treated he improved.
I feel like EPM has become a catch all. Yes, its very common, but I think we sometimes rush to EPM way to quickly.
“I feel like EPM has become a catch-all”
I sense the same thing....kinda like “navicular”.
When our colt was at his worst with neurological symptoms, we had a real good vet come out and examine him, methodically. He started some empirical treatment right away and also drew blood for WNV, etc... His working diagnosis was “rule out EPM”. We thought we were going to lose him.
It turned out he had WNV, and he recovered remarkably quickly.
In my opinion, this is not something where I want to shoot from the hip without a proper evaluation. I don’t want to take shortcuts.
Yes, you might end up treating empirically, but I think it’s a good idea to just do it right. | |
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EMP or just paranoid?