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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| My sister has an 11 year old gelding, 15.3hh big guy. Hasn't done a whole lot i.e. been worked hard. He came to us as a prospect with a solid foundation and started on barrels. We've had him for a few years now and in the last couple years my sister has gotten a lot more serious on him. She's had some jockeying issues on her part and him still being seasoned but we're starting to wonder if it's something more than that.
Had his hocks injected Dec 12th 2017 as he looks like he hops on his back end, he never quite gets up under himself and dies out on the backside or completely blows it off in faster runs. Previously we equated it to her not setting him up for it but a friend and I have since tuned on him post hock injections and run him and he still does it. Stifles? Still hocks? Or just not cut out for barrels?
Videos are in order and have lots more if needed:
May 2016 https://youtu.be/BnJnbIjnbJI
July 2017 https://youtu.be/mW1rP0opSGA
Aug 2017 https://youtu.be/5ZA65jJAHK0
Oct 2017 Day 1 of 2 day race https://youtu.be/mh-VbgpZciM
Oct 2017 Day 2 https://youtu.be/oNCtKFUkXJc
Jan 2018 (Post hock injections) https://youtu.be/GmtQEl12U5Y
Jan 2018 at Home https://youtu.be/UA7ortTjzHQ
ETA more videos.
Edited by WiscoRacer 2018-02-15 9:19 PM
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 The One
Posts: 7997
   
Location: South Georgia | I had a horse do this and it ended up being that one of her hips was out, as well as the diagonal shoulder. It cost me $70 for an adjustment when the vet was out. She was completely sound and no longer hopping two days later. I had done everything I knew. I had her hocks injected as well, thinking it was it. That vet used the lameness locator and everything and didn't detect it, but I could feel it under saddle. Leave it to our routine vet to catch it and fix her instantly. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 534
Location: Ohio girl moved to PA | IMO it looks like hes still hurting. But in some runs it also looks to be a training issue. There wasnt much for pockets for him to actually turn around the barrels when you were actually asking for speed. At home the patterns were much cleaner. Did you have his hocks x-rayed? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| He's had chiro work quite a few times in the past so I don't believe that's it but I'll give it a whirl again for sure.
Yes I agree, she tends to let him cut off his pocket but he also likes to dump on his front end and cuts it off himself if she lets him. He's been trained pretty extensively, especially the last couple years and you'd think by now something should come together. He's a fast horse, she should be at least hitting the 3D at smaller shows and she just can't seem to get there. She's been to clinics, taken lessons, it's not like she just hops on and goes.
We did not have them xrayed as we didn't feel the need, just got him injected uppers and lowers.
We also watched older videos of him as a 4 year old and even loping a circle he tended to die out and not be up under himself. Which makes me think he's just going to be a big clunky gelding.
On another note, we did start him on previcox and will be continuing that the next couple of weeks to see if it makes a difference. Just wanted to post here and see if someone sees something I'm not.
Can also post a run of me or my friend running him too and maybe someone will notice something there that's not jockey related. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| Or maybe just not a good horse/jockey combo? And now that he's gotten away with blowing off barrels he just does it?
Edited by WiscoRacer 2018-01-31 8:39 AM
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  JMHO
Posts: 1869
Location: Oklahoma | Have you tried a differed saddle? Have you tried just sliding your saddle back an inch or 2?
It was tuff to see, but looked like your saddle was up over his shoulders limiting his movement.
Have you run him on bute? |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | He's not using his hind-end at all. If you notice he's dragging his right hind leg quite a bit. Have you had his back xrayed? It might be that or maybe even stifles or SI's. He wants to work, but he's not using his hind at all. It looks painful for him. I would take him to a lameness vet and have them go over him. Something's not right. |
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Sock Snob
Posts: 3021
| have you checked for epm |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | so may of 2016-july 2017 he developed a tail switch that looks to me like a real pain issue. it also looks to me like he's so sore he forgot to switch his tail in later runs, then there's a bit of hope after the injections. If you watch the home video you can see the horse trying to stride out on the back end, which shows he wants to work (though I'm also pretty sure he had some tuning that day for pocket and finishing his turns>|???)
If that tail switch comes back-get him in agian for an exam-do not wait-I'm afraid you will be "fixing" some of his mental issues for quite awhile-until he realizes that running barrels doesn't hurt.
as a side note there seemed to be one of the runs where I got the impression the horse was foot sore-be sure you're keeping a good eye on his trims/shoe jobs-whichever you're doing. Get a second opinion or ask someone you trust what they think of the horses feet and go from there. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| Dreamin of 3cans - 2018-01-31 11:10 AM
Have you tried a differed saddle? Have you tried just sliding your saddle back an inch or 2?
It was tuff to see, but looked like your saddle was up over his shoulders limiting his movement.
Have you run him on bute?
He's been rode in multiple different saddles and this one fits really good.
We started him on previcox. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| LIVE2RUN - 2018-01-31 11:18 AM
He's not using his hind-end at all. If you notice he's dragging his right hind leg quite a bit. Have you had his back xrayed? It might be that or maybe even stifles or SI's. He wants to work, but he's not using his hind at all. It looks painful for him. I would take him to a lameness vet and have them go over him. Something's not right.
Actually good to hear. We have not had xrays of any kind done being it's hard for us to tell whether or not it's jockey error, and the way he runs differs from day to day.
When my friend got on him last night I really noticed him dragging that hind which is partially why I posted. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| LMS - 2018-01-31 2:52 PM
so may of 2016-july 2017 he developed a tail switch that looks to me like a real pain issue. it also looks to me like he's so sore he forgot to switch his tail in later runs, then there's a bit of hope after the injections. If you watch the home video you can see the horse trying to stride out on the back end, which shows he wants to work (though I'm also pretty sure he had some tuning that day for pocket and finishing his turns>|???)
If that tail switch comes back-get him in agian for an exam-do not wait-I'm afraid you will be "fixing" some of his mental issues for quite awhile-until he realizes that running barrels doesn't hurt.
as a side note there seemed to be one of the runs where I got the impression the horse was foot sore-be sure you're keeping a good eye on his trims/shoe jobs-whichever you're doing. Get a second opinion or ask someone you trust what they think of the horses feet and go from there.
Which is really interesting because he literally has done nothing but sit in the pasture and be legged up occasionally before then. But he is a dumb gelding so who knows what he did. He's also kind of ****y in general which is why I've wrote off the tail wringing. He'll do it on the ground if you smack him for being naughty and has been thus way since we got him.
Yes, we do a lot of tuning at home because he constantly blows off his barrels so I'm sure that's partially why.
I've had him to 3 different farriers in the last year and really working on backing his toes up. He's got good feet but he does toe out pretty good in front and I've had farriers try to correct that by showing him different unfortunately.
I'll definitely be getting him looked at, thanks for the opinions! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 477
Location: Lost in the swamps | I'd get a full lameness work up on him.
Check into kissing spines.
And check his si, stifles.
He's got something going on. |
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Veteran
Posts: 264
| Poor guy is trying! Definitely get him to a quality lameness vet. Something is definitely going on but I say higher up than hocks. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| He goes in for a full lameness exam on Tuesday! Keep the suggestions coming! |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Idaho | He wants to work for you, he looks like he has a lot of heart. But as much as he is trying he is not getting under himself. Glad you're getting him into a vet :) I'm sure he will appreciate it in the long run! |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | WiscoRacer - 2018-01-31 1:37 AM My sister has an 11 year old gelding, 15.3hh big guy. Hasn't done a whole lot i.e. been worked hard. He came to us as a prospect with a solid foundation and started on barrels. We've had him for a few years now and in the last couple years my sister has gotten a lot more serious on him. She's had some jockeying issues on her part and him still being seasoned but we're starting to wonder if it's something more than that. Had his hocks injected Dec 12th 2017 as he looks like he hops on his back end, he never quite gets up under himself and dies out on the backside or completely blows it off in faster runs. Previously we equated it to her not setting him up for it but a friend and I have since tuned on him post hock injections and run him and he still does it. Stifles? Still hocks? Or just not cut out for barrels?
I agree that she could be jockeying him better and setting him up better for the turns, but he looks like he's trying his hardest and that something HURTS, by the way he's moving that hind end (even after injections).
I'm glad you have a lameness eval set up because that's where you need to start.
If you've not done hock x-rays, you need to do them. Injections sometimes help certain issues, but sometimes they do not take away all the pain.
I would also pay close attention to stifles. Bony changes are pretty uncommon but if he flexes sore, you may consider doing x-rays of them too, just to make sure.
Hopefully you are scheduled with a GOOD lameness vet who can help give you some direction, based on flexions and observing the horse. I would also bring or send the barrel racing videos to the vet, so they can see what the horse is doing.
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The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | WiscoRacer - 2018-01-31 9:01 PM
He goes in for a full lameness exam on Tuesday! Keep the suggestions coming!
Keep us posted on what you find out! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| r_beau - 2018-02-02 2:52 PM
WiscoRacer - 2018-01-31 1:37 AM My sister has an 11 year old gelding, 15.3hh big guy. Hasn't done a whole lot i.e. been worked hard. He came to us as a prospect with a solid foundation and started on barrels. We've had him for a few years now and in the last couple years my sister has gotten a lot more serious on him. She's had some jockeying issues on her part and him still being seasoned but we're starting to wonder if it's something more than that. Had his hocks injected Dec 12th 2017 as he looks like he hops on his back end, he never quite gets up under himself and dies out on the backside or completely blows it off in faster runs. Previously we equated it to her not setting him up for it but a friend and I have since tuned on him post hock injections and run him and he still does it. Stifles? Still hocks? Or just not cut out for barrels?
I agree that she could be jockeying him better and setting him up better for the turns, but he looks like he's trying his hardest and that something HURTS, by the way he's moving that hind end (even after injections).
I'm glad you have a lameness eval set up because that's where you need to start.
If you've not done hock x-rays, you need to do them. Injections sometimes help certain issues, but sometimes they do not take away all the pain.
I would also pay close attention to stifles. Bony changes are pretty uncommon but if he flexes sore, you may consider doing x-rays of them too, just to make sure.
Hopefully you are scheduled with a GOOD lameness vet who can help give you some direction, based on flexions and observing the horse. I would also bring or send the barrel racing videos to the vet, so they can see what the horse is doing.
Yup, I was planning on xraying hocks and for sure checking stifles.
Also noticed today just trail riding at a walk in the deep sand that he almost "falls in a hole" with his hind end even when theres not one there which I know can be indicative of either stifles or SI.
Got him in with a state of the art facility, they have every machine you'd ever need to diagnose lameness.
I will for sure update! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| Got him in today and it seems he has a multitude of issues, most likely stemming from one sole issue.
Blocked his left front as vet said he seemed to be a 1/5 trotting on the pavement. Very slight but it was there. Finally blocked sound from the fetlock down which revealed he was also lame even more slightly on the right front. Blocked that as well and from pastern down was sound. Also viewing him from the back he has an ever so slight hip dip on the left. We blocked his left stifle and that seemed to disappear.
The left front makes a lot of sense to me, we watched his videos in slow motion and especially turning to the left (which have always been the barrels he blows off most) he's trying to stay off that left front and use his right which throws him off balance and his hind end blows out.
He's scheduled for an MRI next Tuesday so hopefully we get a definitive answer. 
ETA: Also did X-rays on knees as he had some fluid build up (most likely from compensating for so long, his right knee was the worst), the left stifle and his front feet. Waiting on results from those.
Edited by WiscoRacer 2018-02-06 5:58 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| MRI results are in and he's got a myriad of issues. Both stifles are very irritated and have some bony changes, the left being much worse than the right.
He has a slight tear in his left front collateral ligament and has fairly severe navicular changes to both fronts, with the left being worse and the navicular bursa being slightly irritated. The navicular changes are not causing a lot of problems right now though.
We used IRAP therapy on his left navicular bursa, his left fetlock for the ligament, and his left stifle. He'll continue to go back for treatments on docs orders and we may use IRAP on his right navicular bursa and right fetlock just to get it taken care of. If that doesn't work, vet recommended stem cells for his ligament.
We'll be using Osphos for both navicular bones to hopefully get some bone back in there.
Still waiting on the full write up as far as rehab goes and we're unsure on what his prognosis is.
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Bless your heart. I guess the good part is you have a starting point now? Prayers for your boy and a good outcome |
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Member
Posts: 34
| What is the IRAP supposed to do for Navicular? |
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Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | ugh, I thought he was sore but not to that extent-sure is affirmation that pain causes issues. Hope you have luck getting him back on track as much as you can. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | lttllace - 2018-02-16 8:10 AM What is the IRAP supposed to do for Navicular?
Reduce the inflammatory cause. |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| WiscoRacer - 2018-02-15 9:18 PM MRI results are in and he's got a myriad of issues. Both stifles are very irritated and have some bony changes, the left being much worse than the right. He has a slight tear in his left front collateral ligament and has fairly severe navicular changes to both fronts, with the left being worse and the navicular bursa being slightly irritated. The navicular changes are not causing a lot of problems right now though. We used IRAP therapy on his left navicular bursa, his left fetlock for the ligament, and his left stifle. He'll continue to go back for treatments on docs orders and we may use IRAP on his right navicular bursa and right fetlock just to get it taken care of. If that doesn't work, vet recommended stem cells for his ligament. We'll be using Osphos for both navicular bones to hopefully get some bone back in there. Still waiting on the full write up as far as rehab goes and we're unsure on what his prognosis is.
Wow, poor guy, he was trying his best, a lot of horses with this much going on would have gone down the fence line, bucked or come unglued. Good luck with him |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 516
| rodeomom3 - 2018-02-16 9:41 AM
WiscoRacer - 2018-02-15 9:18 PM MRI results are in and he's got a myriad of issues. Both stifles are very irritated and have some bony changes, the left being much worse than the right. He has a slight tear in his left front collateral ligament and has fairly severe navicular changes to both fronts, with the left being worse and the navicular bursa being slightly irritated. The navicular changes are not causing a lot of problems right now though. We used IRAP therapy on his left navicular bursa, his left fetlock for the ligament, and his left stifle. He'll continue to go back for treatments on docs orders and we may use IRAP on his right navicular bursa and right fetlock just to get it taken care of. If that doesn't work, vet recommended stem cells for his ligament. We'll be using Osphos for both navicular bones to hopefully get some bone back in there. Still waiting on the full write up as far as rehab goes and we're unsure on what his prognosis is.
Wow, poor guy, he was trying his best, a lot of horses with this much going on would have gone down the fence line, bucked or come unglued. Good luck with him
He definitely was and I feel bad  Must be one tough SOB. I knew I always liked him for a reason, lots of heart. |
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Lameness? Or not cut out for barrels? Update 2