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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
   
Location: North Dakota | Background: Horse is 7 years old, 15.3 hands. Last year was his first full year running barrels. We had a late start this year because I had a baby at the end of February. I dropped him off at the reining trainer for the month of May. Then picked him up and went to a barrel race the next day!
We did an exhibition that morning of the barrel race, but despite not seeing a barrel since Labor Day, and not yet having the air in his lungs yet, I was pretty darn proud of him. I was actually shocked that he was excited about getting in there, so I cut him some slack with throwing his nose around as we came in. I normally don't like any head throwing, but I did let it slide. Besides getting past the first barrel a bit, and a little miscommunication going to the second, I was pleased as heck with him for our first run of the year.
https://youtu.be/2HHVwYbyHeY
I won't post our run from the next day, because I was very NOT happy with my riding. So let's just not go there, LOL.
Tuesday night this week we had our 3rd run of the year. I had meant to, but still have not done any slow work at home (life gets in the way...or rain makes an arena muddy... I won't bore anyone with the details). And we did NOT do an exhibition b/c I literally rolled in with the trailer as the race was starting. We again got by the first barrel. Then I did not have my hand placed correctly on the rein for the second barrel (should have been farther up) so that was my fault for not having a smooth quick turn. But all-in-all, I am still very happy with how he worked. We lost a lot of time on that first barrel. He'll be right up there when we can figure that out.
https://youtu.be/72NXCtJMfyU
So I suppose my main question is how to guide him on that first barrel? He's really discovered some speed this year, which I'm not used to, so I really didn't anticipate he'd be the type of horse I'd have to rate down for the first barrel. But obviously I need to help him shut down for that first barrel because he's rolling in too hot! I'm thinking I need to stay two handed longer, and softly "check" him as we're coming up.
Any particular exercises that folks like to do in slow work, to really help a horse inhale that first barrel?
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| For the record, I know nothing...
Im pretty sure our "mentor" lady would say to back him down for a month or two and let the speed come more naturally. Make the pattern as perfect as possible before you ask for more. |
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 Party Girl
Posts: 12293
Location: Buffalo, Wyoming | Like you said I think you are going to have to softly ask him for that turn. He isn't really going in there to turn until you ask him on the back side. Ask him one or two strides out and I think you will have the first barrel you are looking for. |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24953
Location: WYOMING | In both videos you rate him 2 handed about four strides from the barrel. He roots his nose both times (in each video) you ask him to rate. You then immediately drop to one hand which is way to soon.
Rating so early then giving him back his head (going to one hand) is allowing his brain to not think turn and allowing him to increase his speed again between the rate point and the turn.
First that nose root is opposite of what you should be getting when you ask him for a response. Second you are rating way too soon especially for the slower speed you are going. Third dropping to one hand too soon you loose the ability to rate him at the proper spot. All these things are causing him to not be ready to make that turn properly.
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| I think you are expecting too much. If the horse has been at a reining trainer, it is very different from a barrel horse trainer. |
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 The best bad guy on the internet
Posts: 3519
Location: Arizona | It doesn't look like you are asking him to turn, you just drop to one hand...you need to driver him up more closer, sit harder, and ask him....he's just running on by! |
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 Saint Stacey
| geronabean - 2018-06-21 2:13 PM
In both videos you rate him 2 handed about four strides from the barrel. He roots his nose both times (in each video) you ask him to rate. You then immediately drop to one hand which is way to soon.
Rating so early then giving him back his head (going to one hand) is allowing his brain to not think turn and allowing him to increase his speed again between the rate point and the turn.
First that nose root is opposite of what you should be getting when you ask him for a response. Second you are rating way too soon especially for the slower speed you are going. Third dropping to one hand too soon you loose the ability to rate him at the proper spot. All these things are causing him to not be ready to make that turn properly.
To add to this, you are also late with looking around to the next barrel. Watch your shoulders, especially in the slo mo. He doesn’t come around until you turn. You’re locking your shoulders instead of looking where you need to be. Horses almost always go where the jockeys shoulders are pointing. You’re late in the turn so he is too. |
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 The Bling Princess
Posts: 3411
Location: North Dakota | I think you should capitalize on all the collection Chad instilled in your horse and work on perfecting your rate. I think he needs more than a bump since he's not finished and needs you to not be in such a forward position with your body. In slow work I'd long stride between and then gather him up at your rate and then go up and around the turn. I literally talk to myself during my slow work. I'll say to myself, "long stride long stride, shorten the stride (collect them up and drive them forward), when I get to my rate point with Teddi Carlos. I'm also not afraid to use cones at my rate point so when I'm reinforcing rate/collection I'm doing consistently in the same spot where he needs it. |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24953
Location: WYOMING | Every reiner trained horse Ive ridden did the opposite of rooting their nose against pressure. Usually the are very verticle flexed. Maybe your trainer can talk headgear with you? Could be the bit, mouth piece, etc.. |
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| SKM - 2018-06-21 3:51 PM
geronabean - 2018-06-21 2:13 PM
In both videos you rate him 2 handed about four strides from the barrel. He roots his nose both times (in each video) you ask him to rate. You then immediately drop to one hand which is way to soon.
Rating so early then giving him back his head (going to one hand) is allowing his brain to not think turn and allowing him to increase his speed again between the rate point and the turn.
First that nose root is opposite of what you should be getting when you ask him for a response. Second you are rating way too soon especially for the slower speed you are going. Third dropping to one hand too soon you loose the ability to rate him at the proper spot. All these things are causing him to not be ready to make that turn properly.
To add to this, you are also late with looking around to the next barrel. Watch your shoulders, especially in the slo mo. He doesn’t come around until you turn. You’re locking your shoulders instead of looking where you need to be. Horses almost always go where the jockeys shoulders are pointing. You’re late in the turn so he is too.
I agree with all of this, he isn't using his hiney... hes pushing into the bridle, going to front end before dropping on his butt to turn around. He needs to use that butt! |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | GeronaBean: While I agree he is not as soft as he should be in the second most recent video on our approach to the first barrel, I don't see that he did anything wrong on the first video? I see him getting really heavy in front, especially on the first barrel, but I don't see him rooting.
He has never been a really "flexy" horse and he never will be. But yes, I can gather him up, ask for that vertical flexion, etc etc when riding. I run him in a smooth 3-piece mouth Jr. Cowhorse, and his regular riding bit is simliar (without gag). I do also ride him English sometimes, in a smooth mouth 3-piece snaffle bit. He'll give me his nose fine in that too. No, he's not perfect at all times and we certainly have room for improvement, but as long as he does what I ask him to do when we are running and listens to me, I don't mind that he prefers to hold his nose out when he runs. I don't need him vertically flexed while we are running.
Keep in mind he was only at the reining trainer for 30 days. He had him in a few different bits while he was there.
SKM: Especially on the first barrel, I do feel I am guilty of not "turning" with my own shoulders when I need to. I feel I did a much better job on the second barrel on the more recent run, than I did on the second barrel in the first video, with "looking" with my body. I never seem to have a problem on the 3rd barrel, so I actually did try to mentally tell myself they are all 3rd barrels on our most recent run. It almost worked.....
Might be a bit of an "excuse" but I still don't feel like I have my balance and core strength back where it was yet after baby. He'll be 4 months old next week. It's getting better, but I don't quite feel like my old self yet.
WYO: I'm determined to get some slow work in this weekend!!
Edited by r_beau 2018-06-21 10:31 PM
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24953
Location: WYOMING | r_beau - 2018-06-21 11:28 PM
GeronaBean: While I agree he is not as soft as he should be in the second most recent video on our approach to the first barrel, I don't see that he did anything wrong on the first video? I see him getting really heavy in front, especially on the first barrel, but I don't see him rooting.
He has never been a really "flexy" horse and he never will be. But yes, I can gather him up, ask for that vertical flexion, etc etc when riding. I run him in a smooth 3-piece mouth Jr. Cowhorse, and his regular riding bit is simliar (without gag). I do also ride him English sometimes, in a smooth mouth 3-piece snaffle bit. He'll give me his nose fine in that too. No, he's not perfect at all times and we certainly have room for improvement, but as long as he does what I ask him to do when we are running and listens to me, I don't mind that he prefers to hold his nose out when he runs. I don't need him vertically flexed while we are running.
Keep in mind he was only at the reining trainer for 30 days. He had him in a few different bits while he was there.
SKM: Especially on the first barrel, I do feel I am guilty of not "turning" with my own shoulders when I need to. I feel I did a much better job on the second barrel on the more recent run, than I did on the second barrel in the first video, with "looking" with my body. I never seem to have a problem on the 3rd barrel, so I actually did try to mentally tell myself they are all 3rd barrels on our most recent run. It almost worked.....
Might be a bit of an "excuse" but I still don't feel like I have my balance and core strength back where it was yet after baby. He'll be 4 months old next week. It's getting better, but I don't quite feel like my old self yet.
WYO: I'm determined to get some slow work in this weekend!!
Here you go. it's very quick and very subtle but he DOES root his nose. Its not a response to pressure you need when asking for the opposite. He is not doing what is asked, thats just it... I know you don't need one vert flexed when running but you dang sure need them to give when asked and not the exact opposite. After 30 days a horse should be giving to pressure. Take it for what it is, you asked and thats what I see. Good luck!
Edited by geronabean 2018-06-22 6:07 AM
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 The Worst Seller Ever
Posts: 4138
Location: Oklahoma | You aren't really asking him to turn. Like you said he isn't finished, so he needs help.
My horses have a siffer turn, but they give to the bit when I pull. I don't care if they stay at a higher elevation as long as they are correct in their turn.
Your horse is bracing against the bit when you touch him. |
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 Expert
Posts: 1857
| geronabean - 2018-06-21 3:13 PM
In both videos you rate him 2 handed about four strides from the barrel. He roots his nose both times (in each video) you ask him to rate. You then immediately drop to one hand which is way to soon.
Rating so early then giving him back his head (going to one hand) is allowing his brain to not think turn and allowing him to increase his speed again between the rate point and the turn.
First that nose root is opposite of what you should be getting when you ask him for a response. Second you are rating way too soon especially for the slower speed you are going. Third dropping to one hand too soon you loose the ability to rate him at the proper spot. All these things are causing him to not be ready to make that turn properly.
I agree with all of this! |
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 Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | My trainer would say to me...... why are you going out there and trying to run him like an open horse? First of all, loose the hand crop, if you can’t turn perfect and on top of your barrels then why are you whipping your horse or asking for more speed. I bet if you slowed him down a LOT and focused on your turns you would probably be the same speed of not faster.
In the first video he looks very lost and mis cued going to the second barrel, he is new at this and looking to you for guidance still, you’re not Helpong him in his turns at all. That doesn’t mean you have to be heavy handed but IMO your reins are also way to long.
Sounds like you have a lot of excuses for not riding or doing slow work, and that’s okay, believe me I know life gets in the way but you HAVE to make a point to ride in between, or make it early enough for exhibition especially for the colts and one who needs rate work.
My advice, slow back down, Slow and correct is faster then speed and bad turns. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I see a horse thats not getting any help to rate the first barrel, I think if you helped him to rate he'll get that first barrel better, I agree on the slow work thou.
Edit to add here, I think hes a cute fella 
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2018-06-22 4:23 PM
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 Georgia Peach
Posts: 8338
Location: Georgia | I am not an expert by any means so you can take this with a grain of salt. He still seems very green to barrels and needs good guidance. I agree with whoever said lose the whip and really focus on YOUR riding. Your hands are a little sloppy and you may be sending him some mixed cues. If he was at a reining trainer, he should be well versed on leg cues which you could use to your advantage. I think the main thing here is that he needs to be worked more at home. Not even on the pattern, but on being responsive and not lazy about cues. When you ask him to turn, he needs to turn right then and not run 4 strides past the barrel. That’s a big no no. Especially if it happens 2 or 3 runs in a row. The nice thing about young horses is that they can still be molded but you can not let them continue to do the same wrong thing over and over or it will become a bad habit. Find the time to work him at home and you will be amazed at the difference. |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | GeronaBean: I suppose a matter of semantics, but I guess I don't call that rooting. I do understand what you mean though.
RnRJack: Not that I need to explain myself, but let me clarify that I did NOT say I haven't been riding him. I do ride most nights after work. I just have not been able to work in the arena on the pattern. So we ride on the trail for conditioning and general training. It has been raining (thank goodness, we need it!) and the arena just has not been dry enough to be safe to do some good pattern work. I'm not going to risk injury to him if the ground isn't right. I can't control the weather.
I also had to take a week off from riding due to tendonitis in my right arm. I couldn't even change my own clothes, it was so bad. No way I was going to be able to saddle and ride a horse. I sure didn't like letting him sit for an entire week but there was nothing I could do until it got better.
Yeah I know "excuses" but I'm doing the best I can with things I can't control.
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Veteran
Posts: 277
| Whenever you ask for critique or advice you get very defensive and argumentative... |
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 Quarter Horse HIstorian
Posts: 2878
Location: Aubrey, Texas | You’ve gotten some really good advice on this thread. The only thing that I would add is that, if he were mine, I wouldn’t enter him again until he’s truly ready to run. I certainly would take advantage of manicured ground and go work slow exhibitions, even if you have to wait until the jackpot is over, increasing speed as he becomes more solid. If you enter, or even compare your time to others’, you’re going to slip into competitive mode and push him before he’s ready. |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24953
Location: WYOMING | r_beau - 2018-06-22 5:43 PM
GeronaBean: I suppose a matter of semantics, but I guess I don't call that rooting. I do understand what you mean though.
RnRJack: Not that I need to explain myself, but let me clarify that I did NOT say I haven't been riding him. I do ride most nights after work. I just have not been able to work in the arena on the pattern. So we ride on the trail for conditioning and general training. It has been raining (thank goodness, we need it!) and the arena just has not been dry enough to be safe to do some good pattern work. I'm not going to risk injury to him if the ground isn't right. I can't control the weather.
I also had to take a week off from riding due to tendonitis in my right arm. I couldn't even change my own clothes, it was so bad. No way I was going to be able to saddle and ride a horse. I sure didn't like letting him sit for an entire week but there was nothing I could do until it got better.
Yeah I know "excuses" but I'm doing the best I can with things I can't control.
Sounds lke you got it all figured out. |
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 Peecans
| If you look at this picture of you (o gosh i hope it loads) look at your upper body position, your shoulders are set to keep going to the fence, he's set and actually wanting to work but can't with the way you are positioned. I can also see how stiff your leg looks when you go to the horn, and again I can see him want to get down and work but when he does you pop on his back and shoot him forward.
You can work on this on the trail, I practice my perfect barrel all the time at a walk adound a rock, branch, clump of grass ext. This post has a lot of great advice much of wi h I needed to read too!
I would really work on you and your core (boy do I know what babies do to that) I think he looks like a great honest little horse. Best of luck to you.
I give up with the picture you can PM me if you want it via email lol
Edited by della 2018-06-22 6:43 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1612
Location: Cocoa, Florida | geronabean - 2018-06-22 5:47 PM
r_beau - 2018-06-22 5:43 PM
GeronaBean: I suppose a matter of semantics, but I guess I don't call that rooting. I do understand what you mean though.
RnRJack: Not that I need to explain myself, but let me clarify that I did NOT say I haven't been riding him. I do ride most nights after work. I just have not been able to work in the arena on the pattern. So we ride on the trail for conditioning and general training. It has been raining (thank goodness, we need it!) and the arena just has not been dry enough to be safe to do some good pattern work. I'm not going to risk injury to him if the ground isn't right. I can't control the weather.
I also had to take a week off from riding due to tendonitis in my right arm. I couldn't even change my own clothes, it was so bad. No way I was going to be able to saddle and ride a horse. I sure didn't like letting him sit for an entire week but there was nothing I could do until it got better.
Yeah I know "excuses" but I'm doing the best I can with things I can't control.
Sounds lke you got it all figured out.
I wasn’t trying to sound rude but its better to not beat around the bush, I ride with some pretty awesome trainers who don’t sugar coat anything. I’m taking basic colt starting lessons from a Reiner now and oh boy the things I’m learning are quite amazing, and it can all be applied to the barrel pattern. Sorry for getting on a rant but I know what the struggle of running young horses when you’re still learning yourself is like! Take it from me, it’s not easy but we’re jhsy trying to help.
I’m sorry about your tendinitis but maybe like someone said just exhibition for a while, or take it real slow until it’s correct. I know what it’s like to want to go out and make a run believe me, I only have one running horse right now and it stinks having just one but I’d rather that horse last me many years.
Do you have anyone that helps you at the races? |
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | Meep.Meep - 2018-06-22 4:47 PM Whenever you ask for critique or advice you get very defensive and argumentative...
And I seem to recall you feel the need to post this exact comment every time. Are you mad or something I didn't reply to the private message you sent me?
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Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | Della: Your picture isn't showing. I'll shoot you my email. Yes, I need to work on my upper body position.
Not quite sure I know what you mean (or where exactly in the run) about me bouncing and "shooting" him forward. Can you say the time on the video? ...... I know ... my arse still has a good extra 10 pounds on it. Darn babies!
Oh, we are doing walking and trotting small circles on the trail. I mess with him all the time like that, among other things. But I know where I need the practice the most is at a lope, and I don't feel safe doing anything other than large circles (no barrel sized circles) on the grass and amongst the gopher/mole holes.
Ha. And he's not little.  He's 15.3 hands!
RnRJack: I didn't take you as rude. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I wasn't just not riding him at all.
Most certainly when I ask for a critique here, I am not expecting sugar coated answers, nor do I want them.
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | What kind of saddle are you riding in? I think the twist may be wide for you to were you cant keep your seat, you bounce out of the seat quite a bit and have alot of movement going on, so to me the twist of the saddle is to wide for you.. I think going to a clinic would be a good thing for you to help you with your timing. I would slow this horse back down, he dont look like hes really for the speed that you are trying to ask of him, hes does look confused, especially going to the second barrel in that first video, maybe hes feeling you moving around in the saddle and going with your movements.
But I would look into a good clinic in your area or look for someone that can help you out with your horse and yourself. |
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Veteran
Posts: 277
| r_beau - 2018-06-23 8:50 AM
Meep.Meep - 2018-06-22 4:47 PM Whenever you ask for critique or advice you get very defensive and argumentative...
And I seem to recall you feel the need to post this exact comment every time. Are you mad or something I didn't reply to the private message you sent me?
I have never posted on any of your threads before that I can recall....And no, not mad you didn't reply, just gave you some advice you can take it or leave it and from your responses to everyone's advice I can tell you will leave it 
Edited by Meep.Meep 2018-06-23 10:24 AM
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 Famous for Not Complaining
Posts: 8848
Location: Broxton, Ga | I would slow work some at a walk stopping let him rest in that rate spot.........as for you....you nailed it 2 hands longer you are going to the horn way to soon and literally throwing him away to turn on his own....I would gather him up a tad more and then go the the horn.....and he is trying. I like his style.... |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | RnRJack - 2018-06-22 10:07 PM geronabean - 2018-06-22 5:47 PM r_beau - 2018-06-22 5:43 PM GeronaBean: I suppose a matter of semantics, but I guess I don't call that rooting. I do understand what you mean though.
RnRJack: Not that I need to explain myself, but let me clarify that I did NOT say I haven't been riding him. I do ride most nights after work. I just have not been able to work in the arena on the pattern. So we ride on the trail for conditioning and general training. It has been raining (thank goodness, we need it!) and the arena just has not been dry enough to be safe to do some good pattern work. I'm not going to risk injury to him if the ground isn't right. I can't control the weather.
I also had to take a week off from riding due to tendonitis in my right arm. I couldn't even change my own clothes, it was so bad. No way I was going to be able to saddle and ride a horse. I sure didn't like letting him sit for an entire week but there was nothing I could do until it got better.
Yeah I know "excuses" but I'm doing the best I can with things I can't control.
Sounds lke you got it all figured out. I wasn’t trying to sound rude but its better to not beat around the bush, I ride with some pretty awesome trainers who don’t sugar coat anything. I’m taking basic colt starting lessons from a Reiner now and oh boy the things I’m learning are quite amazing, and it can all be applied to the barrel pattern. Sorry for getting on a rant but I know what the struggle of running young horses when you’re still learning yourself is like! Take it from me, it’s not easy but we’re jhsy trying to help. I’m sorry about your tendinitis but maybe like someone said just exhibition for a while, or take it real slow until it’s correct. I know what it’s like to want to go out and make a run believe me, I only have one running horse right now and it stinks having just one but I’d rather that horse last me many years. Do you have anyone that helps you at the races?
I didnt see you as being rude, I saw it as you giving your opinion, there's alot of great advice on here |
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11493
Location: 31 lengths farms | You had some really good advice on here but I'm gonna chime in because I've been thru these growing pains myself on a horse that isn't seasoned and a few mild fractures in my back but no baby at home to have to schedule around. Reining training is great but doesn't really teach them to rate a barrel, especially if we go one handed too soon. You may want a tad more bridle so you can leave him be headed to the first, ride him up there, ask for rate and give IF he rates and doesn't push back on your hands. Remember your reining training, ride back to front. I think he just needs to be held together a bit more at this point, maybe 2 handed thru the turns a few times. He looks like he wants to get along and try for you. |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| From what I see in the videos the horse has no rate.
From what I read in the comments, you say the arena is too wet to work in.
You start teaching rate at a walk. You do not need good footing to start teaching the basics of rate.
Crappy ground even grass can do a lot to teach a horse balance and shortening the stride.
You don't need barrel work to teach rate, I suggest going back to dry work and teaching rate, he has the run down, but nothing else. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Maybe I've missed it... And I do agree he needs help like other posters say but, on another note before he is drilled on slow work, has he had a lameness? He looked better to the left two barrels in both videos and maybe not helping him is doing it on the first barrel... But he was dumping on the front end when rating. So much he looked like he was going to fall. He seemed reluctant to stick the inside right hind in the ground. Like I said it maybe seasoning or a matter of helping him more type of thing but if you haven't already, I'd get a quick lameness done on him first. |
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