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Extreme Veteran
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Location: United States | Would love to read opinion and discussion. If an owner had a proven, solid 1D horse with no name pedigree - 5 panel N/N and bred to a Pink Buckle Stallion, would this be desirable to the market to assist in expansion of the gene pool and give random pedigree a chance to bloom with the $$$ incentive? |
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  Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | pippy - 2018-10-10 7:18 AM
Would love to read opinion and discussion. If an owner had a proven, solid 1D horse with no name pedigree - 5 panel N/N and bred to a Pink Buckle Stallion, would this be desirable to the market to assist in expansion of the gene pool and give random pedigree a chance to bloom with the $$$ incentive?
When buying prospects people want a pedigree they can be proud of and that they know they can get along with. This is coming from a seller. It doesn't matter what the people with no money want. |
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 Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | OregonBR - 2018-10-10 9:51 AM pippy - 2018-10-10 7:18 AM Would love to read opinion and discussion. If an owner had a proven, solid 1D horse with no name pedigree - 5 panel N/N and bred to a Pink Buckle Stallion, would this be desirable to the market to assist in expansion of the gene pool and give random pedigree a chance to bloom with the $$$ incentive? When buying prospects people want a pedigree they can be proud of and that they know they can get along with. This is coming from a seller. It doesn't matter what the people with no money want.
Agreed. Anyone looking to buy a prospect are looking for specific pedigrees to buy, market, and resell. They want to be able to predict that horse and since they are the son of, daughter of, etc they can easily predict the temperment, riding style, training time, etc. It leaves little to guess/chance.
A horse with no name on the mother's side MAY sell to the right person but you won't get your money's worth compared to the others in the same category. If you get the prospect sold that is. If you do ge them sold for the lower price is that new owner going to have the time, money, resources, and experience to get your Mare's baby to the winners circle? More than likely no if we are honest with ourselves.
Accomplishments of the mare mean nothing to certain people if she isn't a daughter of a So and So.
I think there will be people to reply that will tell you the exact opposite but honestly those people have more than likely never had to market a prospect to someone with a no name mare right beside a prospect out of an own daughter of...
My opinion of course.  |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality.
When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning.
This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. |
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Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AMThis is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. Agreed. We are not saying known bloodlines is not an important part when picking a prospect but very little to unknown lines excelling in the sport is important too. It opens a new door to the longevity and future of the industry.
Edited by WetSaddleBlankets 2018-10-10 11:52 AM
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives. |
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 Miss Laundry Misshap
Posts: 5271
| Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives.
I'll bite...
Perceived quality would be that Dash Ta Fames tend to be 1D barrel horses. I know a few who's mind went out the window and are now trail nags. Now, the statistics on Dash Ta Fames tell us that as a sire, he's definitely top notch, but buying a yearling doesn't equate 1D. Too many variables, but people pay 25K for one on the perceived notion that it has better odds of being 1D. But the variables have to line up in order to make the colt into a superstar.
When the DTF doesn't end up 1D, and it's their first DTF, they may end up hating the bloodline because they paid 25K for a trail nag. They end up liking the Genuine Doc grandson because he met whatever expectations they had and Mesa Leavitt's Junior horse was one they watched for years. |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM
joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives.
Any 6 yo and younger stud enrolled in the PB is an example of perceived quality unless it ran and won, not to mention all the 3d turds running around that people brag about based solely on their papers.
Irrational people would rather breed a well papered do nothing mare vs a proven 1D winning mare, that should say something about the industry. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-10 10:32 AM
Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM
joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives.
Any 6 yo and younger stud enrolled in the PB is an example of perceived quality unless it ran and won, not to mention all the 3d turds running around that people brag about based solely on their papers.
Irrational people would rather breed a well papered do nothing mare vs a proven 1D winning mare, that should say something about the industry.
It says a LOT about the buyers who say one thing and do another. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first. |
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Expert
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Location: The best kept secret in TX | Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple. I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-) As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
There in lies the problem.
Market an unproven prospect with a no name mare on the bottom side for the PB... Next to impossible to do and get your money's worth.
I don't think this thread is about riding papers as most of the comment shave shifted towards.. I think the OP was talking about buyers being open to the idea that a no name mare could produce a winner for the PB. I don't see many buyers who know how to make a winner interested in a prospect like this. No prospect is proven... but pedigrees with winners on top and bottom seem to make people feel better about taking that chance because those pedigrees are predicatable. |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
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Location: North Dakota | Whiteboy - 2018-10-10 12:04 PM joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors. I'm interested in some examples of Perceived Quality. I think there are all sorts of combinations out there that appeal to different folks. Some may want a true 1D stallion others may want a playday horse that is pretty. For me it all comes to statitics. Something concrete where I can compare like alternatives.
I have a 10 yr old grandson of Frenchmans guy. ALL of his siblings (6-8 I believe) are running in the 1D. This horse is a freak-he's huge (16 hands 1500 pounds) he's won the 2D at an indoor race. He's a 3 1/2D horse-falls in the cracks most of the time. I paid more for him than any other horse I've ever bought as an unbroke 2 yr old-because of how he's bred. Don't get me wrong-he's a super nice animal-is a better heading horse than he will ever be a barrel horse and he's safe/fun. I know he has the ability to run 1D times (because honestly your comment about some may want a true 1D stallion kind of rubbed me the wrong way-who doesn't want to win wherever they go??) This horse does not have the heart end of story. Why? He's afraid, unconfident, Why? I'm not sure, he will put you in the right spot with ease when I'm heading steers-and I hate heading steers but I like riding him so, I head steers because he likes it :) sorry, a little off the OP's original question but I find myself wanting what is in the forefront of social media ALL the time, it's a trap! |
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 Saint Stacey
| PB is going to benefit the mediocre stallions that have been standing for a number of years with no real success get wise yet. The stallions already producing true 1D winners that are booked full year after year? Those ones won’t benefit much. I can’t see any barrel racer paying a $40,000 stud fee on One Famous Eagle just to have a PB foal. Or paying what his yearlings bring.
People are always talking about the shrinking gene pool. But if you go back in history, outcrosses seem to pop up. Even horses people say are outcrosses still go back to the same popular lines from the 1950’s and 60’s. Go back through all the Stallion Registers starting in the late 70’s, early 80’s and it was all DFC, EJ, SE. now you can’t hardly find a son by any of those stallions. Everything is now Corona Cartel, Mr Jess Perry. Barrel horses are still the most diverse pedigree wise because you can pull from race, cutting, reined cow horse, etc and still have a successful barrel horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | Hmmm... too bad their isn’t an incentive program for registered nobody mares bred to Pink buckle Stallions. It could encourage proven mare owners to step out of comfort zone and put faith in their horses that aren’t fiscally appreciated because of their “lack of” breeding. I’m not being sarcastic, I’d love to see the nobodies utilized. |
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I Am a Snake Killer
Posts: 1927
Location: Golden Gulf Coast of Texas | If this no name bred mare has a big time record then I say yes it would be marketable. If just a local 1D mare then u might need to campaign the first one. The good thing about the PB is you don’t have to be in the 1D to get a good check. Also if the mare has really good confirmation it will help. I have been looking and I have seen some nice ones and some not so much to look at. |
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Saint Stacey
| pippy - 2018-10-10 5:20 PM
Hmmm... too bad their isn’t an incentive program for registered nobody mares bred to Pink buckle Stallions. It could encourage proven mare owners to step out of comfort zone and put faith in their horses that aren’t fiscally appreciated because of their “lack of” breeding. I’m not being sarcastic, I’d love to see the nobodies utilized.
Just because a mare runs in the 1D, that doesn’t mean she has the genetic ability to pass it onto her foals. That’s one reason why people like papers. Certain sires are known for their ability to produce daughters that produce winners. Royal Quick Dash, Bully Bullion, Dash Ta Fame, Tres Seis. That’s exactly why stallion owners give considerations to daughters of certain sires. While they might not all produce, you increase your odds on a certain bloodline.
Plus people are barn blind. How many times does a person go on the internet, asking for conformation opinions just so people will gush over the horse? Meanwhile people that have raised more than a few successful horses don’t say anything because they don’t see the same “beautiful horse” others see. Sorry, that’s just the reality.
Plus the fact from the day of conception to when the horse competes is anywhere from 4-6 years minimum. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | joemama - 2018-10-10 11:44 AM This is one of the problems with barrel horses right now, its not about quality, its about perceived quality. When a "no name" bred horse wins people make excuses as to why its winning and when a well bred horse isnt running good at all people make excuses as to why it isnt winning. This is just propaganda, publicity, marketing 101. Hopefully barrel racing people will wake up at some point and see through the smoke and mirrors.
Agree 100%  |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | pippy - 2018-10-10 7:20 PM Hmmm... too bad their isn’t an incentive program for registered nobody mares bred to Pink buckle Stallions. It could encourage proven mare owners to step out of comfort zone and put faith in their horses that aren’t fiscally appreciated because of their “lack of” breeding. I’m not being sarcastic, I’d love to see the nobodies utilized.
If they are truly performers,,,,,,,they are not nobodies.
Pukes are pukes, no matter how many playdays they win |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | I wish 100% of the time mare power was taken more seriously when thinking of breeding. We have all seen SOME of the best bred bloom into nothings and yes there are many variables to a horses successes or lack of... We have also seen MANY non desirable no name yuckies, too. I take time to look at a mare, the way she runs, uses herself, her mind. I believe that someone who breeds a proven "no name mare" to a 5K plus stud strongly believes in their future abilities. As far as I am concerned, their offspring opportunity is the same as a unproven, pretty granddaughter that was injured in training that was "going to be a 1D". Of course its a free market, we can breed to stallions we want, and a horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay but it seems like the emphasis is an awful lot on the stallion. And to the person who mentioned the PB payout is great in all divisions, you nailed it. |
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Worlds Greatest Laugh
Location: North Dakota | While the stallions get paid into Pink Buckle, its really about the mares. Why do I think this, because I have ridden get out of mares that I have ridden. I believe talent and ability comes ALOT from the mare. There are exceptions but breeding Dash Ta Fame or Frenchmans Guy to a donkey still gets you a mule. I think the studs get too much credit and then again too much fault. #MarePower |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Runnincat - 2018-10-11 9:06 AM While the stallions get paid into Pink Buckle, its really about the mares. Why do I think this, because I have ridden get out of mares that I have ridden. I believe talent and ability comes ALOT from the mare. There are exceptions but breeding Dash Ta Fame or Frenchmans Guy to a donkey still gets you a mule. I think the studs get too much credit and then again too much fault. #MarePower
Actually you get a hinny, but we get what you are saying. |
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Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I’d be curious to actually see the mare’s papers. There’s no recognizable name in sight, and then there’s lines that people seem to forget about that have produced super solid athletes.
Example - how many average barrel racers who don’t breed and don’t spend a pile of time studying pedigrees do you think would recognize the name Harlan? Far fewer probably than would recognize Firewater Flit or Letta Hank Do It even though they are Harlan grandsons. We’ve had extremely good luck with Harlan bred horses and I can’t wait to start entering the colt I have in the barn right now.
I’m a barrel racer with champagne taste and a beer budget. These are the kind of horses we’re willing to take risks on if they’re priced right - especially if the pedigree also includes some cow because we rope as well. We can usually make something of them in one arena or another and if they’re level headed enough for a youth horse we always seen to have folks looking for those. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | pippy - 2018-10-11 9:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
I’m not trying to discourage you about breeding to a PB stud, I’m just warning you, you might not make the premium that some others do (when out of an unproven mare). |
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 Expert
Posts: 1520
Location: Illinois | For me if I was considering a colt out of a PB stallion and a no name mom, there would be 2 things I'd look at. First I'd check the mare power on the stallions side, I'm a full believer that mares pass more down to the baby than studs do. If he's got a strong maternal line, I'm more apt to want a baby by him. Next I check the mare. I'm also a firm believer in proven mares. I have one of my own with a good mix of bloodlines that I have stallions in mind for when I do breed her, but if she doesn't make a 1D horse herself, she won't be having babies for me. I like to really do my research on mares, I'm not one that likes to jump on the big names solely because they're what's hot right now or proving themselves currently. If there's nothing I recognize I'm going to research, I look up everything I can about every horse on her pedigree and look up any babies by the rest as well. The I'm going to think about how I expect those lines to cross. The deciding factor on the mare is stats, I want to see stats. If she's running in the 1D, but not winning on the 1D then I'm now more turned off. If you can only provide me stats of her running in the 1D against 1-100 horses, I'm still on the fence. Show me one that's winning in the 1D on a larger scale and consistent, can hold her own in the top 10 at a 200+ horse race, and I think she would cross well with that stud then I would probably take a chance as a buyer. But that's a lot of check marks you have to pass before I buy your colt, and there's a lot of people who would bypass long before I would. It would take the right buyer. I think the buyers in the market of pink buckle horses right now are going to stick with what they know and not branch too far out. I myself would love to see some new faces and variety, but I don't think the Pink Buckle market is where to start with it.
Edited by JLazyT_perf_horses 2018-10-11 10:01 AM
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | pippy - 2018-10-11 7:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
The incentives CAN be awesome if you have the money to play. Mostly it's the riders/owner when they compete that come out ahead. The stallion owners are the ones footing the lions share of the bill year after year.
Just a thought. Just because a stallion has the luck to be owned by a person who can afford to pay them into the most expensive barrel incentive ever conceived, doesn't make that stallion worth anything to breed for a barrel racing prospect. I haven't studied the PB stallion list. But some of them haven't got foals on the ground, let alone anything performing on the track or the arena. Just because they might run on the track, doesn't make them automatically a barrel racing sire. Plus I think the stud fees on all those horses went up to cover the cost of the incentive. That's just how it has to be.
I think it's possible/probable that these PB eligible foals will have an inflated selling price based on the possibility they could earn more money in the PB races. But that's only one race a year. Obviously, people will have to weigh all the facts and choose for themselves. But expect to pay more for the stud fees and the foals in an artificially inflated market. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 502
Location: United States | OregonBR - Awesome response - thank you for your insight!
Edited by pippy 2018-10-11 10:06 AM
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: United States | JLazyT_perf_horses - 2018-10-11 11:00 AM
For me if I was considering a colt out of a PB stallion and a no name mom, there would be 2 things I'd look at. First I'd check the mare power on the stallions side, I'm a full believer that mares pass more down to the baby than studs do. If he's got a strong maternal line, I'm more apt to want a baby by him. Next I check the mare. I'm also a firm believer in proven mares. I have one of my own with a good mix of bloodlines that I have stallions in mind for when I do breed her, but if she doesn't make a 1D horse herself, she won't be having babies for me. I like to really do my research on mares, I'm not one that likes to jump on the big names solely because they're what's hot right now or proving themselves currently. If there's nothing I recognize I'm going to research, I look up everything I can about every horse on her pedigree and look up any babies by the rest as well. The I'm going to think about how I expect those lines to cross. The deciding factor on the mare is stats, I want to see stats. If she's running in the 1D, but not winning on the 1D then I'm now more turned off. If you can only provide me stats of her running in the 1D against 1-100 horses, I'm still on the fence. Show me one that's winning in the 1D on a larger scale and consistent, can hold her own in the top 10 at a 200+ horse race, and I think she would cross well with that stud then I would probably take a chance as a buyer. But that's a lot of check marks you have to pass before I buy your colt, and there's a lot of people who would bypass long before I would. It would take the right buyer. I think the buyers in the market of pink buckle horses right now are going to stick with what they know and not branch too far out. I myself would love to see some new faces and variety, but I don't think the Pink Buckle market is where to start with it.
Awesome Response - Thank you!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1520
Location: Illinois | OregonBR - 2018-10-11 10:00 AM
pippy - 2018-10-11 7:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
The incentives CAN be awesome if you have the money to play. Mostly it's the riders/owner when they compete that come out ahead. The stallion owners are the ones footing the lions share of the bill year after year.
Just a thought. Just because a stallion has the luck to be owned by a person who can afford to pay them into the most expensive barrel incentive ever conceived, doesn't make that stallion worth anything to breed for a barrel racing prospect. I haven't studied the PB stallion list. But some of them haven't got foals on the ground, let alone anything performing on the track or the arena. Just because they might run on the track, doesn't make them automatically a barrel racing sire. Plus I think the stud fees on all those horses went up to cover the cost of the incentive. That's just how it has to be.
I think it's possible/probable that these PB eligible foals will have an inflated selling price based on the possibility they could earn more money in the PB races. But that's only one race a year. Obviously, people will have to weigh all the facts and choose for themselves. But expect to pay more for the stud fees and the foals in an artificially inflated market.
I think there's a couple of the studs on there that even though don't have a name for themselves as producers yet, have good things to offer the industry. I think most are just taking the gamble to get their foot in the door because they see the potential. There's a couple on there I'd like to have a colt out of myself if I had the right mare to cross. I had my eye on Roarrr long before he was Pink Buckle, I'm sure a lot of people look at him and wonder who the heck he even is & what he's done. I think Lucky Wonder Horse has the potential to be a top stud, the mare power behind him is strong. However it will be awhile before we see babies do anything, but they're going to enroll him now to get his foot in the door. Some of the others are just hoping it generates more interest in their studs and a lot of them still have more than reasonable stud fees. Gives people a chance to get a PB eligible colt with a lower price tag & I think they're marketing for people in all divisions of that open race. The people who want to win at the top are going to go with tried and true and pay more, but for those who are just fine with 3/4D, they're gonna be able to find something to fit their needs on the beer budget and still be able to participate. |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | I hope it is a success, I applaud people that are willing to stick their neck and checkbook out there and take a chance, but for me, the math just doesn't add up. |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
Location: Claremore, OK | joemama - 2018-10-11 12:36 PM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
I get where you’re coming from in the breeding.
As far as sending your horse, no matter how it’s bred, to a great trainer, you can send a donkey to the best and it’s still a donkey. There are some trainers I know that don’t ride some certain bloodlines (winning trainers)/ certain pedigrees. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-11 10:36 AM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
The best of the best trainers will not waste their time on something they don't want to ride.
You can't MAKE a horse be what they aren't. You can't make a cutting horse be a race horse, a race horse a cutter, etc... |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| OregonBR - 2018-10-11 2:17 PM
joemama - 2018-10-11 10:36 AM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
The best of the best trainers will not waste their time on something they don't want to ride.
You can't MAKE a horse be what they aren't. You can't make a cutting horse be a race horse, a race horse a cutter, etc...
But you can make either be a winning barrel horse. |
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Veteran
Posts: 141
| AND, its not about wasting time, its about the money people are paying them to train and the money they can get from selling the papers regardless of performance.
I know one trainer posted this year that she trained a really good off name horse and it seemed to me people around the trainer were making excuses as to why the horse was clocking so well and why the trainer "wasted" her time on the horse instead of using their mind and seeing it for what it was. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-11 12:30 PM
OregonBR - 2018-10-11 2:17 PM
joemama - 2018-10-11 10:36 AM
Liana D - 2018-10-10 2:39 PM
I don’t think it’s as much about “perceived quality “ as it is the old “riding the papers” deal. Call it what you want but in today’s market people will pay a premium for proven bloodlines. Racehorse people and cutters have been doing it a long time. Barrel racers, not so much. You can watch the Heritage and NCHA sales and clearly see that a strong top and bottom pedigree with proven winners will out sell a no name pedigree or weak pedigree all day long. Barrel racing is becoming the same way. Everyone wants to increase their odds of winning, pure and simple.
I’ve won a lot on horses that weren’t flavor of he month but I’ve also taken a powder in that type of horse if he doesn’t make it ;-)
As for broadening the gene pool or outcrossing, that’s fine but they need to be proven first.
Lots to reply to in this post, not that I disagree with most of it...
I thought cutters, reiners and track horses bred mostly to winning studs, studs that actually performed and performed well? Am I wrong?
If you want to increase your odds, pay a multi winning futurity trainer to train and run your horse regardless of the papers.
The best of the best trainers will not waste their time on something they don't want to ride.
You can't MAKE a horse be what they aren't. You can't make a cutting horse be a race horse, a race horse a cutter, etc...
But you can make either be a winning barrel horse.
Of course we draw horses from other disciplines that make excellent barrel horses. When you brought up race, cutting and reining horses, you didn't specify they make barrel horses. So I didn't follow your thought process. They don't cross over between those disciplines but some of them would cross over to barrels.
There are success stories. Especially on the aged horse level, local level & rodeo. Many more don't make anything more than local jackpot, playday, 3D and lower horses too. Everyone has different goals. Of all the disciplines that are being bred for, horses bred for barrels are the most diverse in pedigree. We draw from the race track, cow breds, and everything in between. Most of the best barrel horses today are a blend. FG is a blend of race and cowbreeding.
Many people don't have time to re-invent the wheel. They want something that has a greater than 10% chance of being a good horse. People with money want better than 10% success rate and they don't want to mess with the other 90%. So they choose on pedigree, conformation, disposition, etc... You obviously have an agenda against discipline specific horses and that's your right. Nobody can or should tell you how to spend your money or time. But my purpose is to raise horses that not only have the right tools to get the job done, I have to be able to sell them. |
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Champ
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Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | joemama - 2018-10-11 12:35 PM
AND, its not about wasting time, its about the money people are paying them to train and the money they can get from selling the papers regardless of performance.
I know one trainer posted this year that she trained a really good off name horse and it seemed to me people around the trainer were making excuses as to why the horse was clocking so well and why the trainer "wasted" her time on the horse instead of using their mind and seeing it for what it was.
Go talk to a leading snaffle bit trainer and let me know if you got your horse out of Texas by trailer in his stable. Heck even if they are kind of well bred but you aren't anybody he knows about. Let me know how that works for you.
He only has so many spots and he's not going to waste it on a horse he doesn't want to ride.
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I think you have somewhat of a market, OP.
The key is if your mare made a solid impression locally or regionally, your babies may be worth a lot to that niche. I have a mare who is bred really well but its not designer. She's a daughter of Strawflyin Buds out of a daughter of Rare Form. She was a solid 1D horse with a record of winning races of 150-200 horses by 0.2 to 0.4 seconds regularly. She was a 2D money earner at big shows like ANHA and Wrapn3. However, her pedigree isn't popular right now. I bred her to a really solid race stallion and her foal is the only foal I've sold as a weanling. Everything else seems to sell when they are yearlings, but I had two local people almost get into a bidding war over this dude just because of his mom.
I also feel that people will have an open mind about a mare's record when looking for a baby... If you breed a no name, non performing mare to a PB stallion, it's not going to command a premium price. If you breed a "non designer" bred mare with a 1D record to a PB stallion, you should have some market but again, you may not be the high seller of the sale if that makes any sense. I would pick accordingly with your stallion choices, and maybe not go for the stallion who stands for $6000 (random example) on your first foal because its HARD to make your money back on horses as it is. So I would maybe pick a junior stallion that looks really impressive, take the risk, and see what you get. Sell it to the best home you can, and pray they follow through with its training. It will take you 5-6 years before you see if your mare can produce, in the barrel world, regardless of her papers. So you're likely to be on baby #3 or #4 before the first one hits the arena, and you pray that he leaves an impression.
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I also want to mention that breeding incentives should never be your sole reason for picking a stallion. I better really really really want to breed to the stallion for EVERY other reason and then on top of that its in the incentives. You always have to make sound breeding choices. When you just go for stallion X because he's paid into something, without looking into his temperament, conformation, record, offspring, etc.. you may end up with a horse that does nothing. It's a tough enough gamble as it is when they have all of the right pieces, sometimes they still don't make a good horse.
I would really research this and get opinions from people outside of the internet and social media. Talk to people who are actually breeding and selling barrel horses. And buying them.. Be realistic about your goals. Everyone wants to have a futurity horse until they see how much it costs to play the game. Not every horse has to be bred to be a FUTURITY horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: United States | casualdust07 - 2018-10-11 5:52 PM
I also want to mention that breeding incentives should never be your sole reason for picking a stallion. I better really really really want to breed to the stallion for EVERY other reason and then on top of that its in the incentives. You always have to make sound breeding choices. When you just go for stallion X because he's paid into something, without looking into his temperament, conformation, record, offspring, etc.. you may end up with a horse that does nothing. It's a tough enough gamble as it is when they have all of the right pieces, sometimes they still don't make a good horse.
I would really research this and get opinions from people outside of the internet and social media. Talk to people who are actually breeding and selling barrel horses. And buying them.. Be realistic about your goals. Everyone wants to have a futurity horse until they see how much it costs to play the game. Not every horse has to be bred to be a FUTURITY horse.
Thank you for your excellent insight and advice. The two stallions that I want to book to have been on my radar for the past few years, they just happened to enroll as PB. I have learned an awful lot from this thread and I thank everyone who offered opinion. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 953
| OregonBR - 2018-10-11 10:00 AM
pippy - 2018-10-11 7:16 AM
I fully believe in stallion incentives and PB is awesome! I wish the answer was YES, breeding a PROVEN, healthy mare to PB stallion will help the value of the foal and industry. I feel we all need to practice open mindedness and educate ourselves on a mares physical abilities and not just genetics. Opportunity that could benefit a broad field shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not saying a proven nobody bred mare is the answer, it just shouldn't be an automatic turnoff - there could be value.
The incentives CAN be awesome if you have the money to play. Mostly it's the riders/owner when they compete that come out ahead. The stallion owners are the ones footing the lions share of the bill year after year.
Just a thought. Just because a stallion has the luck to be owned by a person who can afford to pay them into the most expensive barrel incentive ever conceived, doesn't make that stallion worth anything to breed for a barrel racing prospect. I haven't studied the PB stallion list. But some of them haven't got foals on the ground, let alone anything performing on the track or the arena. Just because they might run on the track, doesn't make them automatically a barrel racing sire. Plus I think the stud fees on all those horses went up to cover the cost of the incentive. That's just how it has to be.
I think it's possible/probable that these PB eligible foals will have an inflated selling price based on the possibility they could earn more money in the PB races. But that's only one race a year. Obviously, people will have to weigh all the facts and choose for themselves. But expect to pay more for the stud fees and the foals in an artificially inflated market.
Well said!! |
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 Left Out
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Location: Silex Missouri | I agree with you. I can say that I hear "the futurity trainers won't ride them unless they are in the.... incentive". I'm happy for the trainer. but they are not the one footing the bill. I would love to have the $25,000 a year for 5 years to put our stallion in just one incentive. But, lets face it. The people who benefited most from the PB program are the ones who already had 3, 4 or 5 year olds already running. They have had to pay one or two payments, in total, to get to run. The ones with weanlings will pay for 4 years to get to run. That is a huge gambil. Also, try flipping the coin. If the mare owners had to pay $25,000 a year to make the mares foals eligible it would never happen. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | willyturnit - 2018-10-22 12:10 PM
I agree with you. I can say that I hear "the futurity trainers won't ride them unless they are in the.... incentive". I'm happy for the trainer. but they are not the one footing the bill. I would love to have the $25,000 a year for 5 years to put our stallion in just one incentive. But, lets face it. The people who benefited most from the PB program are the ones who already had 3, 4 or 5 year olds already running. They have had to pay one or two payments, in total, to get to run. The ones with weanlings will pay for 4 years to get to run. That is a huge gambil. Also, try flipping the coin. If the mare owners had to pay $25,000 a year to make the mares foals eligible it would never happen.
But a mare has maybe a few babies per year IF she’s being ETed. A stallion can book 50-100 in a year no problem. That kind of money doesn’t make sense for a mare owner to pay annually. |
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Left Out
Posts: 6797
Location: Silex Missouri | I have to point out the "book 50-100 mares a year no problem". Most stallions MIGHT cover 30-50 mares a year. When you talk about 100 you are talking Dash Ta Fame, A Streak A Fling (only 5 years his numbers were over 100 in 2018 according to AQHA he is at 53) and One Famous Eagle (5 years at over 100 in 2018 at 20 according to AQHA), Slick By Design (5 years standing at stud, 3 years over 100 2018 according to AQHA 47) I am sure there are others. Some of the stallions that are in the PB are syndicated which spreads the cost out over all of the owners, making it much more affordable to pay stallions in. I didn't go through the whole list of stallions and I know there are a portion of them that are not syndicated. But another thing to point out, from a stallion owners point of view, and with what has been said before. Foal owners have to pay them in. And many don't. A stallion owner doesn't make much money a year in awards from these programs, and even less if the eligible foals aren't paid into the programs. Additionally, mare owners call and ask for discounted stud fees. It's hard to pay the bills paying out $25,000 to PB, $2800 to FF, $5000 to Blue Collar and paying for advertising at around $15,000 a year. At some point in time the Stallion owners are going to have to raise stud fees substainally just to cover paying them into all of these incentives.
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That's White "Man" to You
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| I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100. But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart. Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it. |
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That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| And unfortunatly, the incentives become basic expectation. Adding no value in price, but without you aren't going to get any attention. So the stallion owners are adding long term cost but no long term return.
Edited by Whiteboy 2018-10-22 4:15 PM
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 "Mom"
| Off topic but I need to inject something.
Conversations like this is why BHW Forums were created. This is a fantastic read! Thanks for keeping it civil and informative.
TALK ON! :) |
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Whiteboy - 2018-10-22 5:10 PM I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100. But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart. Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it.
IMO---winning is what gets attention. Getting the horses into the hands of people that will make them shine is the biggest obstacle we run into as a breeder. Selling a foal just to get the cash does no good in the long term, as a breeder you are better off to bite the bullet early and either pay to get them to a quality trainer that will make them shine or sell them at a huge discount and the benefits will be huge down the road. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Mighty Broke - 2018-10-23 6:31 AM
Whiteboy - 2018-10-22 5:10 PM I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100. But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart. Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it.
IMO---winning is what gets attention. Getting the horses into the hands of people that will make them shine is the biggest obstacle we run into as a breeder. Selling a foal just to get the cash does no good in the long term, as a breeder you are better off to bite the bullet early and either pay to get them to a quality trainer that will make them shine or sell them at a huge discount and the benefits will be huge down the road.
When you sell one to someone for a discount, USUALLY what they do is flip the horse for a profit and you're never going to see that horse excel anywhere. Because they aren't as picky as you are who buys them. It's not their program they're trying to build. They sell for the money and not for the horse's or your programs well being/benefit.
I have a young horse I chose to keep. I have $8K in training so far and he's not close to ready to compete. I figure I'll have another $8K into him before I'm done.
ETA: I completely agree with winning gets attention.
Edited by OregonBR 2018-10-23 10:55 AM
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Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | OregonBR - 2018-10-23 11:53 AM Mighty Broke - 2018-10-23 6:31 AM Whiteboy - 2018-10-22 5:10 PM I agree that very few cover over 50 a year, let alone 100. But now that there is a stallion on every street corner, they have to do something to set themselves apart. Other than progeny performance and incentives, there are not alot of other ways to do it. IMO---winning is what gets attention. Getting the horses into the hands of people that will make them shine is the biggest obstacle we run into as a breeder. Selling a foal just to get the cash does no good in the long term, as a breeder you are better off to bite the bullet early and either pay to get them to a quality trainer that will make them shine or sell them at a huge discount and the benefits will be huge down the road. When you sell one to someone for a discount, USUALLY what they do is flip the horse for a profit and you're never going to see that horse excel anywhere. Because they aren't as picky as you are who buys them. It's not their program they're trying to build. They sell for the money and not for the horse's or your programs well being/benefit. I have a young horse I chose to keep. I have $8K in training so far and he's not close to ready to compete. I figure I'll have another $8K into him before I'm done. ETA: I completely agree with winning gets attention.
Agree---that is a possible scenario and I have ran into that also, just gotta weigh the risk vs reward type thing. |
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Gene Pool and Pink Buckle Incentives