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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 387
 
| has anyone ever had a mare that tests positive for this?
my best friend bought a young bred mare (she is all cutting bred and bred to a cutting stud) and bought her for a very pretty penny, shipped her 20 hours to us and she was due to foal a few months later. we noticed some weird patches of loose skin on her back and questioned the previous owners.
the plan was once the foal was weaned to start riding her, she had 10 rides before they bred her and she was only 3 so she is now coming 5.
the previous owners said that it was just an injury that she came in from pasture with, and we've never delt with herda before so didnt think of it.
she had the foal and then she got some more sores on her back and the vet was coming and they looked and said it was rain rot...
kicked momma and the colt out to pasture for the summer and brought them back in to wean and started working with momma. sent her off to the trainers and while he was brushing her back with a soft brissle brush a massive chunk of skin fell off...
took her to the vets and he said right away that it looks like herda...
we requested a dna test and are awaiting the results, but the more research i do and pictures we look at its defiantly herda.
we talked with the old owners and they never had the stud or mare tested since she was bred before 2015 when it wasn't required. but the stud she was bred too is 4 panel negative carrier for gbed. so its a waiting game for the colt.
anyhow.. my question is, our only options are euthanasia correct?
its such a shame, such a waste of talent, and theres always the risk of her passing this along to her colts if she was to continue to breed?
this is all very new to us, a lesson learnt to do more research before buying, just trying to decide what the best option for her horse is.
her back is healing... but she will never be able to be a saddle horse since it will get worse.
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 My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
 
Location: Arkansas | Bump |
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| If she is slugging skin she is almost certainly H/H. It will get worse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 387
| Whiteboy - 2018-11-28 10:19 PM
If she is slugging skin she is almost certainly H/H. It will get worse.
She sent away the results just to confirm 100%, but her skin is quite loose everywhere on her back, I'll see if i can get a pic
we always knew about about the 5 panel tests but never really understood what each test meant. its eye opening, and a hard lesson learnt
there's nothing to do other than euthinsia? can she live a life?
the way I understand it, even if she was bred to a negative stud for herda the colt will still have a 25% of having the genetic disease and 50% chance of being a carrier? |
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 The One
Posts: 7997
Location: South Georgia | Whiteboy - 2018-11-28 11:19 PM If she is slugging skin she is almost certainly H/H. It will get worse. I believe HH is commonly used in regards to HYPP. For HERDA, it would be HRD/HRD, if she is affected. But yes, it's not a good scenario. I haven't really seen a whole lot about HERDA, so I am interested in following this thread.
Edited by horsegirl 2018-11-29 9:21 AM
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 Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | zansbeunogal_2268 - 2018-11-29 6:57 AM
Whiteboy - 2018-11-28 10:19 PM
If she is slugging skin she is almost certainly H/H. It will get worse.
She sent away the results just to confirm 100%, but her skin is quite loose everywhere on her back, I'll see if i can get a pic
we always knew about about the 5 panel tests but never really understood what each test meant. its eye opening, and a hard lesson learnt
there's nothing to do other than euthinsia? can she live a life?
the way I understand it, even if she was bred to a negative stud for herda the colt will still have a 25% of having the genetic disease and 50% chance of being a carrier?
There have been some people who "say" they have Hrd/Hrd horses that are still alive and doing well. But I'm not sure I believe them.
If this mare is Hrd/Hrd, she would 100% give a single copy of the gene to any foal she has if she is bred to a stallion that is N/N for herda. A single copy of the gene produces no adverse affects in the horse. The only time the 25% affected statement is true is when both parents have a single copy. When one is homozygous for it, they pass it 100% of the time. |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | If she ends up being HERDA positive, then yeah, she won’t be a riding horse and will end up euthanizing her at some point. It’s a terrible disease. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | Can you post pictures? |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | December 2011 Equus magazine had an article on a HERDA positive mare that was doing driving and showing in hand. She had a very dedicated owner and had been diagnosed as "moderate." I went to the website that said it was chronicling her story, but it didn't seem to be the same website anymore. She was 2 at the time of the article. Such a terrible disease |
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Member
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| I own a HERDA affected (HRD/HRD) mare and have worked with the top research vet, who is out of Michigan State (she has seen my mare twice in the past 6 years). I would be happy to answer any of your questions.
Please don't breed her, she will always pass at least 1 copy of the gene to her foals (this implies you breed her to a N/N stud). Also, like humans who have this genetic defect (EDS in humans), there can be a higher chance of pregnancy complications with HERDA affected horses (women with EDS have a higher incidence of pregnancy complications).
If she was mildly affected, you could keep her around as a companion but there are some management things you would need to do.
Just let me know how I can help.
Robin
I own Penelope, the mare that was featured in the December 2010 issue of EQUUS. I took down my website but plan to get it updated and back online next year. |
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 Go go girl
| Robin Davison - 2018-12-02 12:55 PM I own a HERDA affected (HRD/HRD) mare and have worked with the top research vet, who is out of Michigan State (she has seen my mare twice in the past 6 years). I would be happy to answer any of your questions. Please don't breed her, she will always pass at least 1 copy of the gene to her foals (this implies you breed her to a N/N stud). Also, like humans who have this genetic defect (EDS in humans), there can be a higher chance of pregnancy complications with HERDA affected horses (women with EDS have a higher incidence of pregnancy complications). If she was mildly affected, you could keep her around as a companion but there are some management things you would need to do. Just let me know how I can help. Robin I own Penelope, the mare that was featured in the December 2010 issue of EQUUS. I took down my website but plan to get it updated and back online next year.
Are you comparing HERDA to EDS (Ehlers Danlos Syndome)? If so, how is this comparison being made? I have EDS and had two successful pregnancies and healthy children (although one shows signs of having my same type of EDS). I was told of higher risks of complications with EDS, mostly dislocations, luckily I didn't have too much trouble. Are there different variations of HERDA as there are in EDS?
Sorry this is off topic, just caught me by surprise seeing the two being compared. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Robin Davison - 2018-12-02 1:55 PM
I own a HERDA affected (HRD/HRD) mare and have worked with the top research vet, who is out of Michigan State (she has seen my mare twice in the past 6 years). I would be happy to answer any of your questions.
Please don't breed her, she will always pass at least 1 copy of the gene to her foals (this implies you breed her to a N/N stud). Also, like humans who have this genetic defect (EDS in humans), there can be a higher chance of pregnancy complications with HERDA affected horses (women with EDS have a higher incidence of pregnancy complications).
If she was mildly affected, you could keep her around as a companion but there are some management things you would need to do.
Just let me know how I can help.
Robin
I own Penelope, the mare that was featured in the December 2010 issue of EQUUS. I took down my website but plan to get it updated and back online next year.
How is Penelope? My heart hurt reading that article. . . |
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Member
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| My mare, Penelope is 10 years old now and is doing well. Her progression has been slow because I have managed her condition. As with all genetic defects, the severity is unique to each individual. |
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Member
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| Penelope is doing well overall. The disease has progressed slowly because I have managed her condition and she was originally diagnosed as moderate. At 10 years old, she now has more loose skin areas along her topline, she has been lame on occasion, and last year she let us know that it was no longer comfortable for her to wear a blanket. Fortunately, I have her home for the rest of her days now so she get unlimited hay to keep her warm in the winter. She lives with a lovely horse companion and two goats. |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | Robin Davison - 2018-12-03 8:27 PM
My mare, Penelope is 10 years old now and is doing well. Her progression has been slow because I have managed her condition. As with all genetic defects, the severity is unique to each individual.
I'm glad you came on and gave an update. I remember when I read the article and wondered whenever I saw HERDA mentioned what had happened to Penelope. She's blessed to have such a caring owner.
Edited by Chandler's Mom 2018-12-03 9:04 PM
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Member
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| Right now there is only 1 type of HERDA (and yes, HERDA is compared to EDS). Research vets are studying EDS in horses now. I would be happy to get you more information on that if you would like. |
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Member
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| Thanks for the kind words. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | I don't feel breeding a horse that is Hrd/Hrd is any big deal. You will need to A-I her though. As any type of trauma to the skin would be very bad. There are 5546546951654651653 horses with one copy of herda who are perfectly fine and will not have any symptoms of that disorder. Just make SURE the other side of the mating is N/N for herda.
Edited by OregonBR 2018-12-04 9:47 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 387
| OregonBR - 2018-12-04 9:46 AM
I don't feel breeding a horse that is Hrd/Hrd is any big deal. You will need to A-I her though. As any type of trauma to the skin would be very bad. There are 5546546951654651653 horses with one copy of herda who are perfectly fine and will not have any symptoms of that disorder. Just make SURE the other side of the mating is N/N for herda.
I'll grab some pics of her today!
we don't 100 percent understand how the genes pass on...
We have been researching it and there are alot of horses out there with one gene.
for example my broodmare is 5 panel negative, and there is a stud that i like and he is 4 panel negative but for herda he is hrd/n, so he will still pass the gene on to the colt? but not have the slouching skin? (after this I'm really gunshy, I'm just sticking to 5 panel negative studs)
if she is hrd/hrd will she not potentially pass the skin defect onto the colt even if the stud is 5 panel negative?
a couple factors go into her decision, she cant afford to keep and manage a horse with this condition just as a companion, as much as she would love too she just cant afford it.
and if there is any chance of her passing this onto her colts she doesn't want that either, she is in the business to train and sell and doesn't want anyone to go through the same decision she is going through right now. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | zansbeunogal_2268 - 2018-12-05 9:25 AM
OregonBR - 2018-12-04 9:46 AM
I don't feel breeding a horse that is Hrd/Hrd is any big deal. You will need to A-I her though. As any type of trauma to the skin would be very bad. There are 5546546951654651653 horses with one copy of herda who are perfectly fine and will not have any symptoms of that disorder. Just make SURE the other side of the mating is N/N for herda.
I'll grab some pics of her today!
we don't 100 percent understand how the genes pass on...
We have been researching it and there are alot of horses out there with one gene.
for example my broodmare is 5 panel negative, and there is a stud that i like and he is 4 panel negative but for herda he is hrd/n, so he will still pass the gene on to the colt? but not have the slouching skin? (after this I'm really gunshy, I'm just sticking to 5 panel negative studs )
if she is hrd/hrd will she not potentially pass the skin defect onto the colt even if the stud is 5 panel negative?
a couple factors go into her decision, she cant afford to keep and manage a horse with this condition just as a companion, as much as she would love too she just cant afford it.
and if there is any chance of her passing this onto her colts she doesn't want that either, she is in the business to train and sell and doesn't want anyone to go through the same decision she is going through right now.
For your example of the 5 panel negative mare and the hrd/N stallion- the stallion has a 50% chance of passing the HERDA copy to the foal, and a 50% chance of not passing it.
For your question if shes hrd/hrd she will always pass one copy of the gene to her offspring. If bred to an N/N stallion, the foals will all be carriers but none will show clinical signs. If she breeds to a stallion who is a carrier, she has a chance of creating a hrd/hrd symptomatic foal.
It takes two copies to show clinical signs of disease. |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | casualdust07 - 2018-12-05 8:11 AM
zansbeunogal_2268 - 2018-12-05 9:25 AM
OregonBR - 2018-12-04 9:46 AM
I don't feel breeding a horse that is Hrd/Hrd is any big deal. You will need to A-I her though. As any type of trauma to the skin would be very bad. There are 5546546951654651653 horses with one copy of herda who are perfectly fine and will not have any symptoms of that disorder. Just make SURE the other side of the mating is N/N for herda.
I'll grab some pics of her today!
we don't 100 percent understand how the genes pass on...
We have been researching it and there are alot of horses out there with one gene.
for example my broodmare is 5 panel negative, and there is a stud that i like and he is 4 panel negative but for herda he is hrd/n, so he will still pass the gene on to the colt? but not have the slouching skin? (after this I'm really gunshy, I'm just sticking to 5 panel negative studs )
if she is hrd/hrd will she not potentially pass the skin defect onto the colt even if the stud is 5 panel negative?
a couple factors go into her decision, she cant afford to keep and manage a horse with this condition just as a companion, as much as she would love too she just cant afford it.
and if there is any chance of her passing this onto her colts she doesn't want that either, she is in the business to train and sell and doesn't want anyone to go through the same decision she is going through right now.
For your example of the 5 panel negative mare and the hrd/N stallion- the stallion has a 50% chance of passing the HERDA copy to the foal, and a 50% chance of not passing it.
For your question if shes hrd/hrd she will always pass one copy of the gene to her offspring. If bred to an N/N stallion, the foals will all be carriers but none will show clinical signs. If she breeds to a stallion who is a carrier, she has a chance of creating a hrd/hrd symptomatic foal.
It takes two copies to show clinical signs of disease.
This ^^^
I would rather breed a homozygous Hrd mare than I would two N/Hrd horses. You know for a fact that if the one parent is Hrd/Hrd, they WILL pass one copy on. If bred to a N/N horse that's the only outcome there can be. If you breed two N/Hrd horses, that's when you might get a homozygous foal (25% of the time). I would not take the chance of getting a Hrd/Hrd horse. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 387
| OregonBR - 2018-12-05 10:18 AM
casualdust07 - 2018-12-05 8:11 AM
zansbeunogal_2268 - 2018-12-05 9:25 AM
OregonBR - 2018-12-04 9:46 AM
I don't feel breeding a horse that is Hrd/Hrd is any big deal. You will need to A-I her though. As any type of trauma to the skin would be very bad. There are 5546546951654651653 horses with one copy of herda who are perfectly fine and will not have any symptoms of that disorder. Just make SURE the other side of the mating is N/N for herda.
I'll grab some pics of her today!
we don't 100 percent understand how the genes pass on...
We have been researching it and there are alot of horses out there with one gene.
for example my broodmare is 5 panel negative, and there is a stud that i like and he is 4 panel negative but for herda he is hrd/n, so he will still pass the gene on to the colt? but not have the slouching skin? (after this I'm really gunshy, I'm just sticking to 5 panel negative studs )
if she is hrd/hrd will she not potentially pass the skin defect onto the colt even if the stud is 5 panel negative?
a couple factors go into her decision, she cant afford to keep and manage a horse with this condition just as a companion, as much as she would love too she just cant afford it.
and if there is any chance of her passing this onto her colts she doesn't want that either, she is in the business to train and sell and doesn't want anyone to go through the same decision she is going through right now.
For your example of the 5 panel negative mare and the hrd/N stallion- the stallion has a 50% chance of passing the HERDA copy to the foal, and a 50% chance of not passing it.
For your question if shes hrd/hrd she will always pass one copy of the gene to her offspring. If bred to an N/N stallion, the foals will all be carriers but none will show clinical signs. If she breeds to a stallion who is a carrier, she has a chance of creating a hrd/hrd symptomatic foal.
It takes two copies to show clinical signs of disease.
This ^^^
I would rather breed a homozygous Hrd mare than I would two N/Hrd horses. You know for a fact that if the one parent is Hrd/Hrd, they WILL pass one copy on. If bred to a N/N horse that's the only outcome there can be. If you breed two N/Hrd horses, that's when you might get a homozygous foal (25% of the time ). I would not take the chance of getting a Hrd/Hrd horse.
oh thank you for the reply! she doesn't have a login so she will be happy to hear this!
and just because they have one gene doesn't mean it will affect the colt? |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Correct. Herda is recessive. It only affects an animal that has two copies. One from each parent. An animal with one copy will never have an adverse affect from it. That's the nature of recessive genes. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | zansbeunogal_2268 - 2018-12-05 10:49 AM
OregonBR - 2018-12-05 10:18 AM
casualdust07 - 2018-12-05 8:11 AM
zansbeunogal_2268 - 2018-12-05 9:25 AM
OregonBR - 2018-12-04 9:46 AM
I don't feel breeding a horse that is Hrd/Hrd is any big deal. You will need to A-I her though. As any type of trauma to the skin would be very bad. There are 5546546951654651653 horses with one copy of herda who are perfectly fine and will not have any symptoms of that disorder. Just make SURE the other side of the mating is N/N for herda.
I'll grab some pics of her today!
we don't 100 percent understand how the genes pass on...
We have been researching it and there are alot of horses out there with one gene.
for example my broodmare is 5 panel negative, and there is a stud that i like and he is 4 panel negative but for herda he is hrd/n, so he will still pass the gene on to the colt? but not have the slouching skin? (after this I'm really gunshy, I'm just sticking to 5 panel negative studs )
if she is hrd/hrd will she not potentially pass the skin defect onto the colt even if the stud is 5 panel negative?
a couple factors go into her decision, she cant afford to keep and manage a horse with this condition just as a companion, as much as she would love too she just cant afford it.
and if there is any chance of her passing this onto her colts she doesn't want that either, she is in the business to train and sell and doesn't want anyone to go through the same decision she is going through right now.
For your example of the 5 panel negative mare and the hrd/N stallion- the stallion has a 50% chance of passing the HERDA copy to the foal, and a 50% chance of not passing it.
For your question if shes hrd/hrd she will always pass one copy of the gene to her offspring. If bred to an N/N stallion, the foals will all be carriers but none will show clinical signs. If she breeds to a stallion who is a carrier, she has a chance of creating a hrd/hrd symptomatic foal.
It takes two copies to show clinical signs of disease.
This ^^^
I would rather breed a homozygous Hrd mare than I would two N/Hrd horses. You know for a fact that if the one parent is Hrd/Hrd, they WILL pass one copy on. If bred to a N/N horse that's the only outcome there can be. If you breed two N/Hrd horses, that's when you might get a homozygous foal (25% of the time ). I would not take the chance of getting a Hrd/Hrd horse.
oh thank you for the reply! she doesn't have a login so she will be happy to hear this!
and just because they have one gene doesn't mean it will affect the colt?
In this particular disease, one gene will not cause clinical signs. HERDA is a recessive disease, which means it only shows signs if the horse inherits two copies of the disease. Not all genetic diseases are recessive. For example, HYPP and PSSM1 are dominant diseases, where only one copy is required to cause clinical signs.
Edited by casualdust07 2018-12-05 12:41 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 127
Location: Nebraska | In Quarter Horses, there are five prevalent genetic diseases.
PSSM
HERDA
GBED
HYPP
MH
PSSM, HYPP, and MH are dominant. This means a horse only needs one copy of the gene to be symptomatic (although some horses with PSSM never show noticeable symptoms- doesn't mean they don't have the disease or that they won't pass it on).
HERDA and GBED are recessive. A horse needs two copies of the gene to express the disease. You sometimes have HERDA positive horses (like yours) but will never find a horse with two copies for GBED. Horses with GBED will die in utero or shortly after birth.
If bred to a stallion that does not have any copies for HERDA, the foal will not be symptomatic. But the probability of it being a carrier is 100% because it got that copy of the gene from the dam.
So she CAN breed the mare and have a healthy foal, but it means she will need to take a ton of precautions to make sure the mare is not in pain (including AI). It's not an ethical decision if it hurts the mare. She will also likely incur judgement of others- I myself don't see a problem as long as the mare is not uncomfortable and she tells buyers of the foal that it is a HERDA carrier. But some people are adamantly against breeding Hrd/Hrd horses. |
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Expert
Posts: 1409
Location: Oklahoma | Wow I have never heard of these diseases until the last 2 years! and now Im hearing bout HERDA! I cant imagine having a horse skin coming off! how in the world do you manage that! Sometimes God blesses the ignorant! Meaning me! I had a mare that I loved and when she could no longer run I bred her and I picked the stallion by his looks and how he was bred! and I never had cameras and so forth. Course Im not in the breeding business nor do I desire to breed another! I was very blessed with what I got! These diseases and tests and everything is so stressful! Don't get me wrong I know diseases exist and so forth but I didn't think how to breed to prevent. My bad! But that's one of the things I like bout BHW because you can learn! Praying for your friend's horse! You definitely made me more aware! |
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HERDA positive question..