Runninbay - 2018-12-11 2:48 PM

Hi guys! It’s been a while since I’ve been on here but I need the knowledge of BHW. I’ve been riding my coming 5 year old in a Lynn McKenzie special but it leaves dry spots (the hair is rubbed) on her whithers and she has become cinchy recently and just generally ill when riding. She is mutton withered and slightly downhill. I did a lot of research and went up to a local western store and purchased a Martin FX3 with a 7” gullet. Well I put it on her today and it definitely doesn’t fit. I sat in it with a pad on and it felt even worse than it looked. I was very leaned forward and she seemed even more ill than normal. Where do I go from here? Based on the pictures, what changes need to be made?

Note: She is standing in a hole. She isn’t quite this downhill.

 
 

Southtxponygirl - 2018-12-11 6:13 PM I have no pictures 

                                                

FLITASTIC - 2018-12-11 6:00 PM I have 2 pretty mutton withered horses and went through several saddles. My Charmaine James Wide trees fit amazing! I use them with saddleright pads. Are you sure its the tree thats not fitting or maybe the seat that YOU don't like?

Southtxponygirl - 2018-12-11 6:31 PM OK your bottom link is working and I will see if I can post the pictures for you.. 

okhorselover - 2018-12-11 9:08 PM What pad & size are you using ? I personally like the 1/2 inch pad. The thinnest pad the better fit if your saddle fits well. JMHO. Maybe talk to Rocky Road about pad fit to a saddle. She is wonderful.

Runninbay - 2018-12-11 5:25 PM


Everything I have read says you should be able to fit no more than 3-4 fingers between the withers and the pommel. Well I can fit about 6 on this one. 

WetSaddleBlankets - 2018-12-12 12:27 AM   something about it is too wide. The tilting forward and not sitting level. The pommel might just be built higher for a sail fin withers allowing it to have enough clearance even though the saddle is to wide... You can see where the end of bars are in the front are sitting down to much on the shoulder... The bar angle is probably to wide along with the gullet width.

WiscoRacer - 2018-12-12 2:07 AM Too wide of gullet and the wrong bar angle. You can see it doesn't match the horses angles just from the photo.

Runninbay - 2018-12-12 9:23 AM Also, here is the way my Lynn McKenzie fits. This is an older LM that I've had for 15 years.

And I'm going to attach a picture of her sweat marks after a ride. Thought on how this fits? Also too wide?

fulltiltfilly - 2018-12-12 9:57 AM This looks like its sitting down too but not as much as the other one. She has a dry spot on her wither so I would say the saddle is putting pressure there.  

Runninbay - 2018-12-12 9:05 AM That makes sense. So probably the same issue as the Martin, just not quite as bad?  My other issue with the LM is how long it is. I think I need a round skirt on this mare because she is short backed. I emailed the Martin rep that I originally spoke with to determine how the bars are built on the FX3 and to see if any of their other saddles had bars with different angles. My sister in law has a CJ that I can try because of what FLITASTIC said and I've heard in the past that CJ's can be a good fit too. 

Southtxponygirl - 2018-12-12 10:17 AM Yep I would try a CJ or even a  Pozzi Double J wide. I know Martins do have different bar angles that you can special order.  

Does your sister in law have a Cactus CJ or is it a Double J? I know these two can fit different. 

Edit to say I would go with a round shirt too, but the Lynn M by Double J do have a longer skirt and the Martins have a deeper skirt, so I think a round skirt would be a better fit. I have one that is short backed too and need to go to a round skirt on him. 

Runninbay - 2018-12-12 9:48 AM Thank you for confirming my thoughts about the round skirt. Im about 99% sure she has a Cactus CJ. I spoke with her and will hopefully get it tomorrow to try. I have often though about trying the Pozzi Wide fit because I have always been a Double J fan anyway. The word "wide" concerns me now though because im not sure what that entails. Can you or someone explain what makes a tree "wide"? I might reach out to Double J and see about trying one. It's a little pricey to demo one but it might be worth it.

Southtxponygirl - 2018-12-12 11:12 AM Its the angle of the bars for the wide fit saddles. There is a Pozzi extra wide and I think the bar angle is 35* degree with a 7" gullet and a wide is a 43 degree bar angle with a 7 inch gullet. 

If I were you and looking at a Double J wide I would call and talk to someone there that knows their saddles, I have a Double J wide with a 43 degree bar and works with my thick gelding with nice withers and I have a 10# tree and a Standard I have no complaints on these saddles. 

Runninbay - 2018-12-12 10:56 AM


The other day I used a metal hanger and basically molded it to her withers. Based on that, I deermined her shoulders were around 70 degree angle. Does that sound right? What type of tree would this be?
 

Runninbay - 2018-12-12 9:48 AM


Thank you for confirming my thoughts about the round skirt. Im about 99% sure she has a Cactus CJ. I spoke with her and will hopefully get it tomorrow to try. I have often though about trying the Pozzi Wide fit because I have always been a Double J fan anyway. The word "wide" concerns me now though because im not sure what that entails. Can you or someone explain what makes a tree "wide"? I might reach out to Double J and see about trying one. It's a little pricey to demo one but it might be worth it.

OhMax - 2018-12-12 8:52 PM The frustrating thing about it is - “wide” is whatever that particular saddle maker deems it to be... if their “standard” is 6.5” gullet then a 6.75” might be their wide, and the bar angle may not really be any different between the two. Or frankly the gullet could be the same and the bar angle could be what determines regular or wide (not usually the case, but could be). Bar angle is arguably more important than gullet. A lot of folks get into wider gullets and find the saddle dumping forward. The gullet is what holds the bars in the proper position on the back - if it’s too wide everything sits too far down in the front. A horse can be a complete beefcake and still wear a “smaller” gullet if the bar angle is correct. Our rope saddles are on a 6.5” gullet but the bar angle is flatter to fit a bigger shouldered thick cowy horse, as well as accommodate the thicker pads that we use. I really do think that Martin’s Axis tree is one of the most frustrating things that ever happened to the used saddle market. People have no clue how to properly measure a saddle gullet (and frankly you can’t do it accurately once it’s built) and want to go straight across the front and think they need “at least an 8” gullet”. And since Martin makes one (with a completely different fit theory than other saddle makers) people think they need one...it actually makes it really hard I think to sell mid range quality saddles that are normal 6.5-7” gullets. But I digress. It’s frustrating. I love my Burns and their customer service is second to none IMO if you ever get somewhere that they are doing fittings. They are pricey, but you can run a Martin or a Dbl J into the same price range with fancy smancy add ons - and I’ve never seen bling trip a timer any faster. Even if you don’t buy one, you’ll learn a lot about saddle fit and what you should be looking for when you fit other brands. I also think since most of us have been there at one time or another that the best thing you can do is get an idea of what you want to try and ask if anyone has it locally on a Facebook event page or local group. I would venture to say that as long as you’re understanding of their schedule, polite, and gracious that most folks would let you fit a saddle of theirs on your horse at an event - I know I would and have.

WiscoRacer - 2018-12-12 2:51 PM And that statement right there is why I went through 2 dozen saddles trying to find one for my guy  Good luck is all I have to say! Hours of research and reading, buying a saddle I think would work then reselling. And going to shows and bugging people to try their saddles! A lot of saddle makers won't give out the bar angles because they don't want it to be copied; some do which is great but most won't tell you. Saddlemakers.org is a GREAT place to start. It gives you a very good knowledge base to learn about saddle fit and the many different factors. And BHW of course is a wonderful resource too. On another note, the LM looked like a much better fit to me minus the small dry spot. I definitely think the FX3 sat down too far on her shoulders and gave you that dumping feeling.  

r_beau - 2018-12-13 2:41 PM I know it's tough, but if you said she was standing in a hole, it makes it much harder to access saddle fit from pictures if she's not standing square.



I do feel like the Martin is a bit too wide. No bad, by any means. But I think you could do better. Of course, keep in mind that your horse is coming 5 and she WILL CHANGE in shape as she continues to fill out and "finish" growing.



Don't worry about how many fingers you can fit under the gullet. That really means nothing. Different saddles have different gullet heights. What you want to pay attention to is how the bars of the tree are fitting her back.



The LM doesn't look quite right. At first glace it looks too narrow, but it might just be that the twist is wrong, which makes sense for the dry spots. I agree - not a good fit (too long too).



After many saddles for 3 different horses, I have come to the conclusion that the Circle Y Flex2 saddles are amazing. I love them. I have the WIDE for my horse Red (beefy QH with little withers) and the REG for Shotgun (high withers and big shoulders) and for Dexter.  They just fit awesome, sweat marks are perfect, and I personally love how they ride.  Yeah, leather quality could be better compared to some of the other saddle brands, but I am so happy with the fit that I am okay with it.  So I would be curious how one of these would look on your mare. You said she is mutton withered but does she have a very "flat" type of back too? If so, you might want the wide.