|
|
 Expert
Posts: 1343
  
Location: Oklahoma | I understand with specialized breeding that barrel horses are faster today, than say 15 to 20 years ago. But I have heard it said that the 1D horses of 15-20 years ago would be 3D or 4D horses today, which I vehemently deny. What do you think? |
|
| |
|
 Expert
Posts: 5290
| They are not really faster , there are just more horses that would be 1D horses. My mom went to the NFR In the 1960s, 70s,80s. The horses she ran frequently ran low 17 second runs on a WPRA standard pattern. A low 17 is still a tough run today. There are just more horses running those times now. Lol |
|
| |
|
I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Horses today generally have a lot better ground to run on, too. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2121
Location: The Great Northwest | The timing equipment is more efficient today too! |
|
| |
|
Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
Posts: 2869
Location: SE Missouri | I think that the very top tier are faster. The next tier, thanks to advancements in breeding and people understanding and learning better techniques, have higher numbers.
That’s just my two cents which won’t get ya much, lol. |
|
| |
|
Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
| ground and better understanding of feed better shoing better may not be the best word but yiu get my drift |
|
| |
|
Married to a Louie Lover
Posts: 3303
| I think because of breeding, feed, shoeing, ground etc there there Te more fast horses who are consistently fast. |
|
| |
|
Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| OhMax - 2018-12-25 11:05 AM
I think because of breeding, feed, shoeing, ground etc there there Te more fast horses who are consistently fast.
And vetting options... |
|
| |
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 306
| Arena record at the NFR says something for today's horses....
|
|
| |
|
 Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12704
| Maybe also that today we can choose the horse for the type of ground we will be running on most, i.e., rodeo horses don't always do great on the same ground as the big 4/5D super shows. Rodeo horses are almost a breed apart in that they have to stand up on any ground and thrive on atmospheres that would drive the more sensitive big show horses crazy. Big show horses have scary fast speed through the pattern but can't always do those big moves in bad ground. |
|
| |
|
Gettin Jiggy Wit It
Posts: 2734
| Flashin The County - 2018-12-25 12:59 PM
Arena record at the NFR says something for today's horses....
the debate about the arena record at the NFR is tough because yes the horses and riders are amazing but the pattern size and ground is slightly different from year to year. To many different variables IMO for that pen... Now go to an arena that always has the same ground and lasers for barrel markers, then an arena record becomes truly relevant. |
|
| |
|
 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| Considering that there are different arenas and the timer may be set in different places for different races there isn’t much of a way to judge. Many of the arenas that are used today were not around 10 years ago and many of the old arenas aren’t used much any more. Josey’s does not have the same dirt as years ago. Now it is artificial. I have no idea how you get fake dirt. One arena around here is way faster after 300-400 people run. I have a friend that used to enter late and then ride her horse to the arena to run late at night. Since she was usually in the top 3, I would say she had it figured out. I will say that people have become more aware of faster bloodlines and have taken advantage these. I do think if you plan to run mainly at local events, ride what makes you happy. |
|
| |
|
"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
Location: Kansas | Not meant to be a slam at all as I have the highest regard for Scamper but would he have won the world 10 times in a row with today's fast and super athletic barrel horses? I'll bet even Charmayne would be in doubt.
|
|
| |
|
 Elite Veteran
Posts: 1031
Location: Oklahoma | Frodo - 2018-12-25 2:17 PM Not meant to be a slam at all as I have the highest regard for Scamper but would he have won the world 10 times in a row with today's fast and super athletic barrel horses? I'll bet even Charmayne would be in doubt.
I was thinking about this very thing during this year’s NFR. Not just Scamper but how all the horses at the 1988 or 1998 NFR would have competed with the horses there this year. |
|
| |
|
Location: Not Where I Want to Be | By and large they are faster, stronger and more athletic than they were 20-30-40 years ago.
No different than human athletes. Science is facilitating the improvement and will continue to do so.
|
|
| |
|
I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Quick3 - 2018-12-25 2:36 PM
Frodo - 2018-12-25 2:17 PM Not meant to be a slam at all as I have the highest regard for Scamper but would he have won the world 10 times in a row with today's fast and super athletic barrel horses? I'll bet even Charmayne would be in doubt.
I was thinking about this very thing during this year’s NFR. Not just Scamper but how all the horses at the 1988 or 1998 NFR would have competed with the horses there this year.
Put them on the bad ground that Scamper and the rest had to run in and it would be interesting how they would do, especially in the average. I really hate to compare these great athletes though. Both sets of horses are such great athletes with so much grit. Really it isn’t fair to compare with so many variables. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 141
| Flashin The County - 2018-12-25 12:59 PM
Arena record at the NFR says something for today's horses....
We must have peaked last year and are on a downward trend then... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
| I think the biggest difference is drugs being used! Look at Thoroughbred horse racing. The times have not changed that much. They are improving their genetics, shoeing, nutrition, and training methods too just as barrel horse owners/breeders are. I have seen a difference just in the last 15 yrs in barrel racing. I see ppl shoot them up right before running and they admit they are giving adrenalin and it lasts 30 sec. SO yes i'm sure we are improving the horses, but not that much. |
|
| |
|
 Saint Stacey
| I do think today’s horses are slightly faster, on average. But not even close to being a full 1/2 second or more as this poll has. Prior to the early 90’s, they really didn’t have arena drags. Certainly nothing like what we have today. Arena drags back then consisted of an old box spring mattress with a few large rocks thrown on it. They didn’t even hand rake at jackpots. Ground conditions have vastly improved. As has veterinary medicine. Back in the early 90’s, vets knew more about chickens than they did horses. That’s a direct quote from a lameness vet I used. Let’s not forget trailers. Now we have air ride suspension, werm flooring, etc. Prior to the early 90’s, not so much. Those horses traveled HARD miles. Everyone that hauls a lot knows that hauling is what cripples a horse more than the running does.
I think those great horses would still be great today. I don’t think the Sister’s or Louie could blow the likes of Bozo or Scamper out of the water.
Edited by SKM 2018-12-26 8:23 AM
|
|
| |
|
 Pres. ViaGen
Posts: 46
| Information is more accessible allowing for more informed breeding decisions plus improved health care, etc. Shipping semen, embryos, etc allows for more horses to be produced with desirable genetics. The depth at the top end is definitely increased versus 20 years ago. The outliers of the past could likely compete with today's top end, but the potential of the top third has increased signficantly. |
|
| |
|
Good Ole Boys just Fine with Me
Posts: 2869
Location: SE Missouri | lucky2 - 2018-12-26 7:06 AM
I think the biggest difference is drugs being used! Look at Thoroughbred horse racing. The times have not changed that much. They are improving their genetics, shoeing, nutrition, and training methods too just as barrel horse owners/breeders are. I have seen a difference just in the last 15 yrs in barrel racing. I see ppl shoot them up right before running and they admit they are giving adrenalin and it lasts 30 sec. SO yes i'm sure we are improving the horses, but not that much.
The breeding is sped up in other breeds due to AI, ET which used to keep bloodlines regional. Now We see different bloodlines mixed at a much quicker rate to see if it works. IF AQHA and APHA were live cover only like JC, I don’t think you would see this top tier be faster and it would be back to pockets of these top horses..
To say drugs are the only reason Barrel horses are faster is a slap in the face to anyone raising quality barrels and rolling the dice to improve the breed. Better veterinary care and care over all- for sure but just straight up drug use is just BS.
I do think the top tier/super stars of the past would still get their fair share anytime.
Edited by abrooks 2018-12-26 8:39 AM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 489
| I think the bad cats of yesteryear would still be bad cats today. They were animals that were superior for their time- they usually blew the competition out of the water. Today, they would still be competitive and winners, but maybe not as dominant - because there are a lot more quality animals/riders/trainers today than years gone by. If you brought the past super winners into this era and gave them the same playing field (better vets and therapy treatments, better shoeing, better ground,better trailers)- they would definitely be faster now than they were then. No doubt in my mind they would still be competitive. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 350
| You've misunderstood my point. Yes the breed is getting better, and kudos to breeders in general for producing the amazing horses out there. I have the utmost respect for breeders. All i'm saying is that yes it does play a part, it might be a small part, but it's still there. When you have a sport that has virtually no rules/regulations against drug use u are really kidding yourself to say it is not going on. And as far as JC only using live cover on TB, you have to understand that the majority of your best studs and mares reside in Kentucky so its not a matter of not having the best genetics, please. You take care, i did not mean to ruffle feathers, just something to think about. |
|
| |
|
Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12704
| lucky2 - 2018-12-28 12:08 AM You've misunderstood my point. Yes the breed is getting better, and kudos to breeders in general for producing the amazing horses out there. I have the utmost respect for breeders. All i'm saying is that yes it does play a part, it might be a small part, but it's still there. When you have a sport that has virtually no rules/regulations against drug use u are really kidding yourself to say it is not going on. And as far as JC only using live cover on TB, you have to understand that the majority of your best studs and mares reside in Kentucky so its not a matter of not having the best genetics, please. You take care, i did not mean to ruffle feathers, just something to think about.
There has always been, and will always be, a bad element in any sport where money is on the line. The drugs then may have been different, but adrenaline has been available for how long? Many many years. There was then and is now some that think other drugs help with a horses speed performance, be it on the track or on the pattern.
But I still don't think illicit drugs are that much a problem, or the reason we have reshaped the bell curve with barrel horses. I've hung with the top tier crowd enough to see that they are using lasix, vitamin B cocktails, and some other vitamin/mineral cocktails, electrolytes, clembuterol/albuterol, banamine, etc. I've seen the bottles they are drawing from and unless they are going to super extremes (not saying they couldn't have been) it's just the usual cocktails.
|
|
| |
|
 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | lonely va barrelxr - 2018-12-28 10:39 AM lucky2 - 2018-12-28 12:08 AM You've misunderstood my point. Yes the breed is getting better, and kudos to breeders in general for producing the amazing horses out there. I have the utmost respect for breeders. All i'm saying is that yes it does play a part, it might be a small part, but it's still there. When you have a sport that has virtually no rules/regulations against drug use u are really kidding yourself to say it is not going on. And as far as JC only using live cover on TB, you have to understand that the majority of your best studs and mares reside in Kentucky so its not a matter of not having the best genetics, please. You take care, i did not mean to ruffle feathers, just something to think about.
There has always been, and will always be, a bad element in any sport where money is on the line. The drugs then may have been different, but adrenaline has been available for how long? Many many years. There was then and is now some that think other drugs help with a horses speed performance, be it on the track or on the pattern.
But I still don't think illicit drugs are that much a problem, or the reason we have reshaped the bell curve with barrel horses. I've hung with the top tier crowd enough to see that they are using lasix, vitamin B cocktails, and some other vitamin/mineral cocktails, electrolytes, clembuterol/albuterol, banamine, etc. I've seen the bottles they are drawing from and unless they are going to super extremes (not saying they couldn't have been) it's just the usual cocktails.
Completely agree. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1031
Location: Oklahoma | What is pretty amazing is how long a lot of those past horses stayed sound and competitive without all things we have available now. I remember listening to an interview with Kristie Peterson about Bozo. She said pretty much all she did for him back in the day was try to run cold water on his legs after every run. Someone else mentioned how much more comfortable our trailers are now, etc. Without many aides to help, Scamper, Bozo and others, longevity was pretty amazing.
Edited by Quick3 2018-12-30 10:23 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 5290
| Quick3 - 2018-12-30 8:20 AM
What is pretty amazing is how long a lot of those past horses stayed sound and competitive without all things we have available now. I remember listening to an interview with Kristie Peterson about Bozo. She said pretty much all she did for him back in the day was try to run cold water on his legs after every run. Someone else mentioned how much more comfortable our trailers are now, etc. Without many aides to help, Scamper, Bozo and others, longevity was pretty amazing.
Totally totally agree!!! Horses used to die sound !!! Seems like today they don’t stay sound near as well. And this is having all these new things that are supposedly so much better. My hunch , it’s the FEED. I think we are slowly killing our horses from
The inside out. |
|
| |
|
  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | So my thoughts are this. If the horses years ago had the better groomed arenas, better vets & farriers, bleeder meds, all the crazy therapy products we do, air ride trailers and better fitting tack, I think they would be just as fast if not faster. IMO we have bred the soundness out of a lot of our bloodlines. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 141
| wyoming barrel racer - 2018-12-30 7:33 PM
So my thoughts are this. If the horses years ago had the better groomed arenas, better vets & farriers, bleeder meds, all the crazy therapy products we do, air ride trailers and better fitting tack, I think they would be just as fast if not faster. IMO we have bred the soundness out of a lot of our bloodlines.
Maybe these "advances" are allowing inferior horses to compete at a level they couldnt have in the past and its just to much for them long term? |
|
| |
|
Saint Stacey
| lonely va barrelxr - 2018-12-28 8:39 AM
lucky2 - 2018-12-28 12:08 AM You've misunderstood my point. Yes the breed is getting better, and kudos to breeders in general for producing the amazing horses out there. I have the utmost respect for breeders. All i'm saying is that yes it does play a part, it might be a small part, but it's still there. When you have a sport that has virtually no rules/regulations against drug use u are really kidding yourself to say it is not going on. And as far as JC only using live cover on TB, you have to understand that the majority of your best studs and mares reside in Kentucky so its not a matter of not having the best genetics, please. You take care, i did not mean to ruffle feathers, just something to think about.
There has always been, and will always be, a bad element in any sport where money is on the line. The drugs then may have been different, but adrenaline has been available for how long? Many many years. There was then and is now some that think other drugs help with a horses speed performance, be it on the track or on the pattern.
But I still don't think illicit drugs are that much a problem, or the reason we have reshaped the bell curve with barrel horses. I've hung with the top tier crowd enough to see that they are using lasix, vitamin B cocktails, and some other vitamin/mineral cocktails, electrolytes, clembuterol/albuterol, banamine, etc. I've seen the bottles they are drawing from and unless they are going to super extremes (not saying they couldn't have been) it's just the usual cocktails.
I don’t think drugs that are a problem on the track are used much in the barrel pen. Mainly because a horse is lucky to last 5-8 starts on that crap. They run for big money as a 2 year old so longevity isn’t something they think about. Barrel horses can’t make the huge money in just a few starts that a race horse can.
I do think the biggest drug problem in the barrel industry is people that block right before a run. Especially those futurity colts. But I’ve known more than a few nice rodeo horses that were simply blocked until they were too crippled to compete anymore. |
|
| |
|
Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | joemama - 2018-12-30 10:49 PM
wyoming barrel racer - 2018-12-30 7:33 PM
So my thoughts are this. If the horses years ago had the better groomed arenas, better vets & farriers, bleeder meds, all the crazy therapy products we do, air ride trailers and better fitting tack, I think they would be just as fast if not faster. IMO we have bred the soundness out of a lot of our bloodlines.
Maybe these "advances" are allowing inferior horses to compete at a level they couldnt have in the past and its just to much for them long term?
I think so on some. And to open another can of worms I think running them as 3's really shortens their careers. So what if one or 2 make the NFR in the future, think of the hundreds that compete as 3 in the Slot Races and do well (throw out the ones that were never competitive to start with) that are done physically at 4 or 5. I think horses in the past were faster for longer and given the advance in today's medicine and therapy, those same horses would have crazy longevity and blow today's records out of the water. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 141
| wyoming barrel racer - 2018-12-31 11:40 AM
joemama - 2018-12-30 10:49 PM
wyoming barrel racer - 2018-12-30 7:33 PM
So my thoughts are this. If the horses years ago had the better groomed arenas, better vets & farriers, bleeder meds, all the crazy therapy products we do, air ride trailers and better fitting tack, I think they would be just as fast if not faster. IMO we have bred the soundness out of a lot of our bloodlines.
Maybe these "advances" are allowing inferior horses to compete at a level they couldnt have in the past and its just to much for them long term?
I think so on some. And to open another can of worms I think running them as 3's really shortens their careers. So what if one or 2 make the NFR in the future, think of the hundreds that compete as 3 in the Slot Races and do well (throw out the ones that were never competitive to start with ) that are done physically at 4 or 5. I think horses in the past were faster for longer and given the advance in today's medicine and therapy, those same horses would have crazy longevity and blow today's records out of the water.
I agree, and I love futurities. |
|
| |
|
 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 433
Location: The Lone Star State | Back then most horses were "Cow Bred" now they are all almost straight "Running bred" I definitely feel they are faster now. Add to that the supplements, feeding programs, ground conditions = faster times.
Put Scamper or Bozo up against Dash to Fame who do you think would win? |
|
| |
|
 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Ticktock - 2019-01-02 8:40 AM Back then most horses were "Cow Bred" now they are all almost straight "Running bred" I definitely feel they are faster now. Add to that the supplements, feeding programs, ground conditions = faster times. Put Scamper or Bozo up against Dash to Fame who do you think would win?
Now everybody realizes that Dash ta fame is only 2 years younger than bozo. Ticktock, you also realize that DTF wasn't a barrel horse right? |
|
| |
|
Reaching for the stars....
Posts: 12704
| Whiteboy - 2019-01-02 9:50 AM Ticktock - 2019-01-02 8:40 AM Back then most horses were "Cow Bred" now they are all almost straight "Running bred" I definitely feel they are faster now. Add to that the supplements, feeding programs, ground conditions = faster times. Put Scamper or Bozo up against Dash to Fame who do you think would win? Now everybody realizes that Dash ta fame is only 2 years younger than bozo. Ticktock, you also realize that DTF wasn't a barrel horse right?
WB - funny you bring that up. Back in 1997 I bought my first QH Journal since the 70's. I was browsing to look into sires to start by barrel horse breeding program. DTF caught my eye only because he was so UGLY! I could see he was throwing really nice race babies but didn't want to take the chance at getting that head or those crooked legs in my program. I went with Zan Par Deck, who was a 4 time AQHA barrel champ, a multi event ROM horse, and conformationally correct. Look what 20 years of DTF has done for the barrel breeding world! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 433
Location: The Lone Star State | Whiteboy - 2019-01-02 8:50 AM
Ticktock - 2019-01-02 8:40 AM Back then most horses were "Cow Bred" now they are all almost straight "Running bred" I definitely feel they are faster now. Add to that the supplements, feeding programs, ground conditions = faster times. Put Scamper or Bozo up against Dash to Fame who do you think would win?
Now everybody realizes that Dash ta fame is only 2 years younger than bozo. Ticktock, you also realize that DTF wasn't a barrel horse right?
yes I know he was not a barrel horse but a very prolific sire. His speed and ability put into todays barrelhorses is what I was referring too. Just my opinion. |
|
| |
Are today's barrel horses THAT much faster?