In attempt to find that "perfect feed" to my 3 horses, Safe choice Sr. was suggested. I have 2 barrel horse mares in competition  age 7 and one retired gelding and really wanted to find the best feed for all. They have access to pasture and or good quality hay 24/7. I love renew gold and the concept of it but concerned about vitamin/minerals. The two mares do not need a feed that makes them hot for sure. I like that the Safe Choice Sr. Is a complete feed but see that the protein is higher than in most others. 
Other feed I have looked at is Strategy Healthy Edge and Ultimum. My horses are pretty easy keepers and have no ulcer issues which I'd like to continue. There are so many choices between Nutrenia and Purina which is all that is available in my area.

I recently switched from Safechoice Senior to Pro Force Senior and I love it! My old man is 31 and started losing his top line around Thanksgiving so I made the switch. He's since put on some weight even though it has been pretty cold and he looks really good. It's beet pulp based so I dont have to add that like I was before with the Safechoice Sr. It's a little more expensive, but really worth it in my opinion. Since he is so old, I do soak it in water to prevent choking. 

If you like Renew Gold but you feel like they need more in the way of vitamins/minerals you could always add one in. There are so many to chose from. Platinum,  MVP, DAC, Equipride,  just to name a few off the top of my head. I'm guessing if you're hay is of excellent quality,  you may not need to add any extras unless you are supplementing for something very specific. 

This. Added vitamins will not be needed if hay quality is good. Added mineral only if you are in an area that has a specific deficiency. 

No matter how good the quality of your hay, pasture, or Renew Gold, you HAVE to have added mineral and vitamins. You will not get all the needed requirements through forage and renew gold itself. Ever.

MVP has an awesome complete vitamin and mineral supplement for both grass and alfalfa diets. I recommend those two. Get your hay tested, because some high quality grass hay can be the equilivent of low quality alfalfa.

But you HAVE to have an added vitamin and mineral.

I feed Timothy pellets, coastal hay 24/7, Renew Gold, and a mineral supplement for my horse's crappy feet. He recently cut his fetlock bad enough we had to put him in a cast. It was supposed to be for 3 weeks, but he had healed so well at one week when they took his cast off to put a new one on, they decided he did NOT need a second cast. My vet was shocked at how well he is healing. I feel like if he was vitamin/mineral deficient he would not be healing so quickly and so well. We go back Friday for a check up to see if he can get out of stall jail. 

Simply. Not. true. If your horses hind gut is working properly and they are receiving quality forage, they will get all the vitamins and minerals they need. How would a wild horse , grazing on a range , order a vitamin and mineral product to take ???  Lol

Have to have a vitamin or mineral for what?   To be competitive? Longevity?  

Really!! Never heard this in my whole life of owning horses. 

There is a lot of differences between wild horses and domestic horses.   One is only the stronge and lucky servive and the other is controlled by humans. 

If you are competing or even just riding a horse daily, they need to have ALL vitamins, minerals and amino acids to give them the best OOPMF possible throughout their lifetime and career. Good hay and say, a rice bran/coconut aka renew gold, is not supplying all amino acids, vitamins AND minerals an active horse truly needs to be competing, active, etc. Though you are getting a good majority of certain things, you're still missing some essentials and off balancing key items that will affect the horses skeletal build and longevity in the long run. If feeding horses was that simple, there wouldn't so many studies today! And athletes wouldn't need a higher and denser diet in order to compete and KEEP competing, staying physically sound for years.. People AND horses, it goes hand in hand.

It's basic equine nutrition. And I STRONGLY encourage the Feed Room Chemist podcast by Dr. Jyme Nichols of Bluebonnet feeds. There's lots on the Colorado State page, Bluebonnet's website, A&M. Even youtube has a lot you can learn from. Most vets don't get into as far of detail as a true equine nutritionist does, so referring to a vet may not do you any good unless they actually take courses for 'equine nutrition'. It's a rabbit hole I think a lot of horse owners jog by because the old timers just fed hay, pasture and oats, right? Well. Just because a horse looks good and feels good now, doesn't mean it truly does on the inside. Equine nutrition is a booming industry right now, you need to have self-research under your belt and be open to learning. New things are getting discovered and published every single day.

Just because it's worked for decades doesn't mean it truly did. Because we are just now learning about the ins and outs, how to prevent this and that, etc in 2020. 

In both of my equine nutrition classes, we got this Equine Nutrition Management Manual from Alberta Argiculture & Rural Development and we based a lot of our northern plains forages, grains, etc off that. It is a good place to start if you are curious into equine nutrition!

Edit to add: Another good podcast to listen to is Married With Horses and Horse Poor Podcast. Some goodies in Straight from the Horse Doctor's Mouth. 

BlueBonnet feeds also has webinars you can replay on their website that goes over a lot of this and that nutrition, but their youtube channel is amazing. They're not biased or sugar coating the science just to sell their products. Definitely a good place to start for those learning without a class.

Very very big difference both genetically and nutritionally between a domesticated horse doing everything unnatural to them (competing, riding, even just being a domesticated horse on a specific piece of land being fed whats only bought for them) and a wild horse that is just eating, pooping, breeding, and migrating for a living. 

I'll attach some good articles. Keep in mind, look for .gov, .edu, .org (in few cases, some organizations are biased!) when researching. Some good ones that give a very very broad overview to balancing a complete equine diet.

https://aaep.org/horsehealth/hay-quality-and-horse-nutrition-evaluating-your-horses-nutritional-needs

https://esc.rutgers.edu/fact_sheet/the-basics-of-equine-nutrition/

https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B1355&title=How%20to%20Feed%20a%20Horse:%20Understanding%20the%20Basic%20Principles%20of%20Horse%20Nutrition

https://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex9622/$FILE/feeding-working-and-performance-horses.pdf

**This is the manual we referred to a lot! Lots and LOTS of goods in here :)

https://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex12189/$FILE/460_51-1.pdf

I still disagree. Have you seen the rough country most wild horses live in? Many ranch horses are on pasture as well as bucking stock and they look and perform very well. But again, my horse wouldn't be healing as well and quickly as he is if he was not getting all the nutrients he needs, per my vet. He is on hay and renew gold diet with an ulcer med because the antibiotics and stress of staying in a stall gave him ulcer symptoms. 

And that's fine. Your opinion is your opinion. 

Most ranchers DO keep a form of mineral and salt out for their horses; tubs, blocks, etc. 

A horse will survive without all the requirements being met, but that is where longevity and elder issues will come into play in the future :) I for one never fed anything but alfalfa rounds and pasture until I started diving into equine nutrition. Made a huge difference in my personal horses performance and health once I got the hay tested and minerals and vitamins balanced. Not everyone can do that, so I'm thankful I can, but it's interesting the new correlations these new studies are getting. 

It will be interesting to see how our industry and the longevity of our athletes change with new science being published. 

I agree too GLP, I have know rought stock to be out on pasture when good pasture is avaliable if not good grass then round bales.. My horses have always been on a good balance diet, to me with all the new vits. out there its overwhelming and I think alot of horse owners over do it with all the new Vits and they can cause problems. If your horses are on a good balance diet and healthy you dont need to be adding extra vits. If on a poor diet poor hay yept these added vits can help, but its a healthy balance diet that works. And all livestock owners do add salt and mineral blocks to their livestock, that is a no brainer right there, heck I even leave salt blocks out for the deer. And like GLP is saying her horse is doing very well, hes on a good balance diet.

Heck I even know some rope horses that is on a all hay diet with no added vits doing well in the rope pen. Its good quality hay with their salt and mineral blocks. My horses never touch their mineral blocks out in the pastures but the deer like them so I keep them out for who ever wants them. Anybody should know that salt is needed in any diet.. 

You would be shocked! Salt seems to be missed a lot in the diet. Mine personally refuse to eat salt blocks, so I have to hide it in their alfalfa pellets or ration balancer. Salt and electrolytes are huge, especially so if you have a bleeder on lasix.

But yes Cattle ranchers almost take better nutritional care of their cattle than most average horse owners. But cattle nutrition has been explored and studied for ages since its a 'necessary food industry' to better production vs horses where people are really just recently diving into perfecting the equine diet for better performance and longevity.

Agree agree agree.

I hope Mr Win comes back on to talk more about the science etc, behind this.

I have a friend that has cutting horses, and years ago a local girl borrowed her palomino gelding to take to the National High School finals rodeo in CO for the cutting class.  They won. . . Copey was probably in his mid to late teens then---been a cutter for years. . . Guess what--no supplements, just on grain and hay and pasture and salt block.  Not to be argumentative, but I don't see HAVING to have a supplement and/or vitamins.   

There is nothing better for a horse than unimproved pasture grass. Pastures with more than one kind of grass. And it's a little talked about fact that many weeds are actually very helpful. That is why the wildies don't need feed or supplements. Plus the dirt rocks they lick provides minerals. I truly believe if you can put your performance horse in that kind of environment, that is all they would need. Trouble is, so very few of us can do that. So Miss Debra, I believe you. 
of course this is a generalization. There is no one program that fits every horse.

I will post on this at greater length when I have access to my computer, and don't have to type at length on my phone. 

while I have formulated vitamin / mineral formulas for a number of national brands, I have moved away from them in most cases based on blood work from horses on a grain free or greatly grain limited forage based diet. If you do not feed this way, supplementation may be of value. 

The key is the elimination of grain, corn and soy from the diet. One size does not fit all, but in most cases, the best return on your feed dollar is better quality roughage, not further supplementation. 

There are areas where certain minerals are short in the roughage. This needs to be addressed. In general, if grain based feeds are eliminated from the diet, and roughage quality is high, added vitamins make little or no difference apparent in the blood work. 

Super curious which mineral/vitamin supplement brands you formulated and why you steer away from them? Using one that is fit to your tested forage and or pasture shouldn't hurt anything. A balanced diet with the needed vitamins and minerals isn't going to hurt anything unless they have a problem from the beginning making levels toxic or unbalanced. Your findings would be a good discussion in the equine nutrition forums! 

Totally agree!!!   I feel so blessed to have a large pasture where my horses can roam and graze 24 hours a day; I didn't realize how lucky I am until hearing of the stories and possible issues on here about owners that had to stall their horses or only had small acreage on which to keep them.   

I tell people all the time that if it makes you sleep better I have no issue with people using a quality vit/min since excess is eliminated. However, I would just rather see that money spent on better roughage. Significant starch and sugars that are fed (grain based feeds) in amounts that allow it to reach the hind gut, undigested, can greatly alter water soluble vitamin production. Eliminating that excess starch and sugar improves that vitamin production. If you can't do that, added support is justified. My point is simply that added supplementation of vitamins is not required in every horse diet. If the basic diet is disruptive, added vit/min may benefit. The better solution is to change the diet to one that provides the fat soluble vitamins, allows production of the water soluble vitamins and is not mineral deficient on its own without added supplements. My most identifiable vit/min formulation was Gro Strong mineral for ADM. 

You seem like a good one to pick the brain of!

So I'm plain jane curious. You don't have to reply! LOL I just love these discussions!

So since hay and pasture depends 110% on where you are environmentally, what about the lacking numbers in selenium, or especially Vitamin E now that we know some of the long and short term results of vit e deficiencies? Or unbalanced calcium:phosphorus ratios affecting growth and longevity in the skeletal system? I feel like there's lots of reasons today why someone should be open to testing their hay and pasture and look into balancing the hay and grass diet with the correct ratios and amounts to meet a complete vitamin and mineral requirement, whether that be a lick, tub, pellet or lose mineral supplied (not specifically a grain), so it seems odd to me to tell people to not worry about it? (Oh, as always with salt!)

I know we were personally taught in class that an IDLE horse (meaning that of one with little to no workload, just walking to and from the water tank, grazing, etc) for the most part gets the needed protein and a good percentage of the nutrients they need for their daily 15-16mcals of energy from JUST hay and pasture (Dr. Phillips in Horse Poor Podcast touches on this as well) :) Even a horse that is just getting rode here and there can get by and look great with a fat body, shine and good feel. But as a barrel horse forum, that's not what my comment is aimed at. My comment/advice those should take with a grain of salt, is mainly for the AVERAGE competitive barrel horse program (getting rode 1-2 hours daily 5-6x a week as well as competing 1-2x a week or even every other). Because there is a HUGE difference between a low/idle horse vs a horse that is in work, competing, hauling, etc. A horse that is truly getting conditioned, worked and competing is depleting almost all that its eating and 'taking in' fat, vitamins and minerals faster to keep the muscles and body up to par during such a program, than that of a pasture pet/occasional trail horse (which is why supplements and grains ARE available for those on the road not being able to graze a pasture 24/7 or have the same perfect hay at every state) . I think a NO GRAIN diet is truly the best way to go personally, if you can, but a ration balancer or a vitamin and mineral to BALANCE your diet for a competitive horse should still be 'key'.  But then, keep in mind that there also comes the horses that only thrive on a sweet feed high in sugars and starch that look and feel amazing, whereas some get just a handful of it and they practically get every health issue on the planet..

Every horse is different. I agree not EVERY horse NEEDS a complete diet, because some truly don't. But for someone who is spending $1000's to run and travel, having everything on the competitive edge seems to be the focus. And with the immune system basing in the gut, the gut, aka the diet, will affect performance present day and in the future.

Again, no shade. I have no Masters or Doc Degree. Just certificates and hoping to gain more as I go! Just wanting to learn another point of view!!

You bring up all good points and only miss a few that are important to me. Here is my point of view.

I do strongly believe in forage testing. In my 30+ years as a bio chemist who focuses primarilay on equine nutrition I have done and reviewed over 30k hay and pasture analysis. You will notice in my answer above that I strongly stress the need for the highest quality roughage available, and that acquiring that should be the number one priority when it comes to your feed dollars. Clearly hay analysis can be a great aid in identifying this hay, and many quality hay suppliers provide analysis information to customers who purchase enough for that informaion to be meaningful for the hay that they bought. I also mention that regional mineral defeciencies (selenium is a good example) need to be addressed. However, addressing mineral defeciencies with a typical vitamin / mineral formulation is impossible. Selenium can not be added to feed, or a general vitamin / mineral package in high enought amounts to balance a selenium poor region since that same formula may well go to a region that exibits selenium toxicity. In cases of specific regional mineral issues a specific supplement, not a general one, is the only way to address that issue. The Pacific North West is a good example here.  In my clinics and seminars the first thing that you will hear me say is that "we feed horses into trouble, then try to supplement them out of it". My reference to a balanced diet is one  that fits the horses digestive system with the least negative impact while eliminating feed inclusions that include corn, wheat, soy, oats and molasses. These ingredients, in higher feed rates, negatively impact digestive effeciency. The term "balanced diet" would include adiquate Vitamin E levels, (supplied by Renew Gold) addresses a proper cal/phos ratio, (normally met with high quality mixed roughage and Renew Gold), a proper Omega 3 to Omega 6 ratio of the entire diet, and proper digestible energy for the level of effort needed by the specific horse. I only refer to Renew Gold here as you state that feeding that program will not meet the above requirements. Elimination of grain based feeds, while incorporating a more energy dense non grain replacement results in more digestive effeciency and significantly lower risk of digestive upset. 

Most clinical feed studies done in Universities today are underwritten by conventional feed companies. I know, I consulted and formulated for conventional feed producers for a number of years.  Since most of those companies are deeply and  financially commited to formulations that include the least expensive sources of protein, starch and sugars available, those types of feeds are promoted as "normal and proper" for horses. The problem with this is that while those ingrediets do provide raw numbers for reaching calorie goals, they do not take into consideration the disruption of digesive effeciency of those ingredients and how they effect the horses hind gut effeciency and proper processing of the most important part of the diet, the roughage. As a result, it is possible that a significant amount of roughage sourced calories, vitamins and minerals end up on the ground behind the horse. Those lost roughage nutrients were purchased, hauled, stored, fed, eaten, and then not captured. As a result of this ineffeciency, water soluble vitamins are not properly produced, calories are not captured, and analysis results make it look like the answer is more grain based feed and a vitamin/ min supplement. Eliminate the ineffeciency in absorbtion, take away inflammation, normalize microbes in the hind gut and normalize the ability to make water soluble vitamins, and that need to add more calories and supplements greatly goes away.

This is my basic princiapl of normalizing a system that is amazingly effecient if allowed and supported to function naturally. Provide that vast majority of the horses energy needs from the highest quality roughage and/or pasture available. Provide needed additional energy and fat soluble vitamin needs in the smallest, least disruptive, package possible while supporting normal digestive function through the entire system. Regional minieral deficiencies need to be supported by specific supplementation, not general vitamin/ mineral formulas. Very high energy needs can be met by increasing both roughage and natural vegatable fat calories without introducing disruptive levels of starch and sugar. Useable levels of NSC is another topic completely. I try to keep additional concentrates, if available roughage leaves me no other choice based on hay quality, to under 1.5 pound per feeding. 

I am not against ration balancers when hay quality is low and quality roughage simply can't be found.  I am not against mineral support if roughage is deficient. My preference in both situations is to fix the cause of the shortfall with better roughage. When this simply can't be done, supplementation may be the only solution, it is just not the best one, or only one. 

please excuse typos. Still working from my phone.

Win

I LOVED this response!

Also stealing this quote: we feed horses into trouble, then try to supplement them out of it. It seems like it was/is such a fad to add 900 supplements to a feed.. I won't lie, I was that girl too a few years ago! Loved your ideal balanced diet too! Just an awesome response. Thank you!

Giving this a bump up