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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
        Location: Kansas | Failed the drug test. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Common sense would dictate Baffert wants no part of a mistake that would cost him his status in the industry, and this would do it. As a trainer you gain your fame with winning horses and the owners of good horses send their horses to your stable. Huge deterrent if you cheat. |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
      Location: Tulsa, Ok | Not like this his first bad test. Let the legal wrangling begin. |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
       Location: Opelousas, LA | I wonder if not being allowed to use lasix in this years derby affected the withdrawal times of common meds, the amount they found was not very significant even if it was double the permitted level. I feel bad for the connections of Medina Spirit, the new corticosteroid rules are pretty hard to work around. |
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 Popped
Posts: 20421
        Location: LuluLand~along I64 Indiana | Did they pull the same samples from the second and third place horses? Do they get tested if they are moved up in the winners order? How does setting time affect the samples..... i have so many questions. |
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Expert
Posts: 1207
  
| Question: Do the horses get tested BEFORE the race? |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Barnmom - 2021-05-09 10:53 PM
I wonder if not being allowed to use lasix in this years derby affected the withdrawal times of common meds, the amount they found was not very significant even if it was double the permitted level. I feel bad for the connections of Medina Spirit, the new corticosteroid rules are pretty hard to work around.
I think thats a good question about the Lasix. I know nothing about the Horse Racing world, but I feel really bad for the Jockey, Medina Spirt and the owners/owner of Medina Spirt, this horse worked really hard for that #1 Spot.  |
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7550
     Location: In The Land of Cotton | https://pastthewire.com/the-lab-used-for-the-kentucky-oaks-and-derby-testing-had-their-churchill-downs-contract-terminated-before-the-races-but-were-still-used/ |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
      Location: Tulsa, Ok | Barnmom - 2021-05-09 10:53 PM I wonder if not being allowed to use lasix in this years derby affected the withdrawal times of common meds, the amount they found was not very significant even if it was double the permitted level. I feel bad for the connections of Medina Spirit, the new corticosteroid rules are pretty hard to work around. In this case the question is mute because Baffert says he was never treated with betamethasone
Edited by SC Wrangler 2021-05-10 12:48 PM
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | Frodo - 2021-05-09 12:40 PM
Failed the drug test. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Common sense would dictate Baffert wants no part of a mistake that would cost him his status in the industry, and this would do it. As a trainer you gain your fame with winning horses and the owners of good horses send their horses to your stable. Huge deterrent if you cheat.
Baffert's horses have failed drug tests FIVE times in the last year....Arkansas suspended him but then later walked it back and just fined him .... He is NOT an amateur at using drugs! |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
        Location: Kansas | SC Wrangler - 2021-05-10 12:47 PM Barnmom - 2021-05-09 10:53 PM I wonder if not being allowed to use lasix in this years derby affected the withdrawal times of common meds, the amount they found was not very significant even if it was double the permitted level. I feel bad for the connections of Medina Spirit, the new corticosteroid rules are pretty hard to work around. In this case the question is mute because Baffert says he was never treated with betamethasone Evidently even if the horse had been treated weeks ago it could still show up in his system in a tiny quantity. It's an anti-inflammatory. I don't see the problem but the battle ain't over til it's over. Baffert feels he still has a good chance of beating it. I'm sure he has a lot of employees including assistant trainers who make decisions on their own. An injection could have happened without him knowing it. Also Betamethasone is legal at Churchill Downs but only if you declare usage 14 days before the race. Baffert was on FOX this morning and was a well of information.
Edited by Frodo 2021-05-10 1:59 PM
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  The Original Cyber Bartender
          Location: Washington | This is a fair/good read. https://pastthewire.com/things-can-happen-fast-in-horse-racing-when-they-involve-bob-baffert-and-not-always-on-the-racetrack/?fbclid=IwAR3kTsQIuaDhOhQGWM0gHlKdbfff0mUKqQyIoHL-KLQevzMgwLfybN7HKnU
Edited by fatchance 2021-05-10 9:06 PM
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  The Original Cyber Bartender
          Location: Washington | Another good/fair read. https://pastthewire.com/the-lab-used-for-the-kentucky-oaks-and-derby-testing-had-their-churchill-downs-contract-terminated-before-the-races-but-were-still-used/?fbclid=IwAR238r1r8n4rCkd2B8UHMfKjpdHSJZEZXK2VFZqyzpoBbdBFknmvkbAIx80 |
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 Popped
Posts: 20421
        Location: LuluLand~along I64 Indiana | Your right fatchance.... that was a very informative read. |
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 Veteran
Posts: 106
 Location: Da Booshes | https://www.drf.com/news/medina-spirit-was-treated-ointment-containing-betamethasone-derby Not confirmed but it looks like the horse was treated with an antifungal cream containing Betamethasone. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 560
   Location: Where the buffalo roam |
And there lies the problem with drug testing if there is not a completely controlled environment - that was always a concern at the NFR because someone could just walk by and swipe a horse with an ointment containing a "controlled substance" (benzocain was always one that people mentioned) and it would be too late once it was discovered. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
        Location: Kansas | Medina Spirit gets to run in the Preakness this weekend. Good to hear. |
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 Saint Stacey
            
| Baffert at first blamed cross contamination with the theory that a groom was taking cold medicine, maybe urinated on the hay and the horse ingested it. Because the horse had never been given any bethamethasone.
Then he admitted that it came to his attention that they had been using Otomax on the horse for dermatitis prior to and on Derby day. Right there on the label, plain as day it says betamethasone. The withdrawal period prior to a race for betamethasone is 14 days. Baffert had been in trouble for bethamethasone back in September. That medication should have been high on his drug radar. No groom just does something to a horse without being told to and handed the medication. The responsibility of ALL horses lays entirely on the shoulders of the trainer and the help HE hires. Claiming ignorance when you have been training for decades just doesn't fly. Did Baffert willing cheat? Doubful. Was it an honest mistake? More than likely yes. Does that mean he's innocent? No. Drug rules are there for a reason. He knew the microscope racing is under. Being the head trainer, he should have been going over every med going on or in those Derby horses in particular with a fine tooth comb. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Frodo - 2021-05-12 5:31 AM
Medina Spirit gets to run in the Preakness this weekend. Good to hear.
Thats so great to hear, will he still be under Bob Baffert? Medina Spirit will have all eyes on him for sure.  |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | I watched Bob Baffert being interview on Fox News and when he said the hay must have been urinated on by a groon taking meds for a cold and Medina Spirit ate that hay and then his story changed to giving the horse Otomax for Dermatitis. My horses are so picky about hay, I cant see a horse eating hay thats been urinated on by human or any other type of animal, pee stinks to high heaven. Right there that was a red flag to me with that statement Baffert made.. I'm really sad that he made up these stories. Even Bill Hemmer on Fox knew something was up.
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2021-05-12 8:45 AM
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
        Location: Kansas | Southtxponygirl - 2021-05-12 8:19 AM
Frodo - 2021-05-12 5:31 AM
Medina Spirit gets to run in the Preakness this weekend. Good to hear.
Thats so great to hear, will he still be under Bob Baffert?
Medina Spirit will have all eyes on him for sure. 
I think he's only suspended at Churchill so assume he's the named trainer at the Preakness. |
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
       
| The horse had .000000000009 grams (that is trillionths of a gram). of betamethszone in him. Betamethszone is a steroid used to treat skin conditions, an ointment. The horse had an irritation on his rear end. It is far from a performance enhancing drug and was obtained from a vet. What this all boils down to is the horse was bred in Florida. Kentucky people don't want anything but Kentucky horses winning. Don't know where HotRod Charlie was from but you can't disqualify all of them. Same thing happened to the Massachusetts horse in 2019. |
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 Saint Stacey
            
| streakysox - 2021-05-14 11:30 PM The horse had .000000000009 grams (that is trillionths of a gram). of betamethszone in him. Betamethszone is a steroid used to treat skin conditions, an ointment. The horse had an irritation on his rear end. It is far from a performance enhancing drug and was obtained from a vet. What this all boils down to is the horse was bred in Florida. Kentucky people don't want anything but Kentucky horses winning. Don't know where HotRod Charlie was from but you can't disqualify all of them. Same thing happened to the Massachusetts horse in 2019. The amount is irrelevant. It's also not just for skin irritation. It's used in hock injections. In premature human infants it's used to help lung function. There is a zero tolerance policy. Baffert tried to blame everyone. Going as far as to say that a groom might have urinated on the hay while on some type of meds, the horse ate the hay, hence the contamination. But he's done that numerous times with other failed drug tests.
The ointment they were using on the horse clearly stated BETAMETHASONE. Baffert isn't a freshmen trainer. He knows better and he knows to check labels. It's hus barn, his horses, his responsibility. That's the bottom line. It's irrelevant where the horse is from. The rule states ZERO tolerance. It doesn't state, "Zero betamethasone tolerance except for in the case of Baffert using an antifungal cream that contains betamethasone ".
Edited by SKM 2021-05-15 7:57 AM
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
        Location: Kansas | Don't be so quick to condemn. Jockey Mike Smith is an honest Christian guy very well spoken. He said the amount of steroid in this horse's system was equivalent to one drop of water in three Olympic size pools. It could have been hanging in his system for weeks. Even D Wayne Lucas defended his competitor and said the rules have become so complicated it's hard to know what's right. The amount is extremely relevant.
Edited by Frodo 2021-05-15 8:47 AM
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  The Original Cyber Bartender
          Location: Washington | IF every barrel racer out there haven't bought this super cream they are missing out! Just a little dab will make your horse a super star! Just sayin...... |
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 Saint Stacey
            
| I haven't seen one single source saying the trace amount of betamethasone is why the horse won. That is beyond ludicrous. It's the FACT that it IS a steriod. Betamethasone is a corticosteroid, meaning it’s a man-made steroid that resembles cortisol, a natural hormone produced by the adrenal gland. While legal as a therapeutic aid for horses, it is illegal when found in the blood on race day because it’s considered a possible performance-enhancer. Again, zero means ZERO. So if you let the 21 picograms slide because it's Bob Baffert, what else do you let slide? Baffert KNOWS better. He isn't some rookie and claiming ignorance doesn't justify a potential bad test. Especially when he told the world what was used on the horse. |
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    Location: South Dakota | SKM - 2021-05-15 2:06 PM
I haven't seen one single source saying the trace amount of betamethasone is why the horse won. That is beyond ludicrous. It's the FACT that it IS a steriod. Betamethasone is a corticosteroid, meaning it’s a man-made steroid that resembles cortisol, a natural hormone produced by the adrenal gland. While legal as a therapeutic aid for horses, it is illegal when found in the blood on race day because it’s considered a possible performance-enhancer.
Again, zero means ZERO. So if you let the 21 picograms slide because it's Bob Baffert, what else do you let slide? Baffert KNOWS better. He isn't some rookie and claiming ignorance doesn't justify a potential bad test. Especially when he told the world what was used on the horse.
Maybe some ridiculous over the top rules, need to be tossed...horse racing will gone, if people squabble over every little thing...opening the door to media circus, peta agenda. Focus on what truly matters for the horses well being. |
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 Saint Stacey
            
| ridejg - 2021-05-15 1:46 PM
SKM - 2021-05-15 2:06 PM
I haven't seen one single source saying the trace amount of betamethasone is why the horse won. That is beyond ludicrous. It's the FACT that it IS a steriod. Betamethasone is a corticosteroid, meaning it’s a man-made steroid that resembles cortisol, a natural hormone produced by the adrenal gland. While legal as a therapeutic aid for horses, it is illegal when found in the blood on race day because it’s considered a possible performance-enhancer.
Again, zero means ZERO. So if you let the 21 picograms slide because it's Bob Baffert, what else do you let slide? Baffert KNOWS better. He isn't some rookie and claiming ignorance doesn't justify a potential bad test. Especially when he told the world what was used on the horse.
Maybe some ridiculous over the top rules, need to be tossed...horse racing will gone, if people squabble over every little thing...opening the door to media circus, peta agenda. Focus on what truly matters for the horses well being.
Is it ridiculous and over the top? Racehorse trainers many years ago used vitamin C and something else to make it wherecertain drugs wouldn't test. I'd have to look back in my notes, but it was discussed right here on BHW with the daughter of a trainer. There are too many people out there that are full blown chemists when it comes to horse racing. Many get away with it because you can't test for something unless you know what to look for. That usually only comes to light when someone tells officals what the concoction of the month is. Then the develop a test to actually find it. Case and point...frog huice and red bull. Hence the zero tolerance policy. |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Fingers cross for Medina Spirit!!!!
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Thats so cool about Ram.  |
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Well pooo, I was really pulling for Medina Spirit....  It was cool to listen and see his breeder, she seems to be a hoot  |
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 Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
       Location: Opelousas, LA | Frodo - 2021-05-15 8:45 AM Don't be so quick to condemn. Jockey Mike Smith is an honest Christian guy very well spoken. He said the amount of steroid in this horse's system was equivalent to one drop of water in three Olympic size pools. It could have been hanging in his system for weeks. Even D Wayne Lucas defended his competitor and said the rules have become so complicated it's hard to know what's right. The amount is extremely relevant. The rules have become very complicated. Barrel racers that go get a horses hocks injected, then run in a barrel race three weeks later, have no idea how hard it is to comply with the rules now. I just had two of my race mares worked on and we used Depo in thier hocks because Vetalog and Beta just don't last in hocks. I can't race for at least 30 days, state vets actually suggest longer but there really are no hard and fast stats on how long it takes for depo to clear. To be absolutely safe, I really should wait 60 days and only because they have not had any other joints injected with Depo for the last 6 months because it can build up in thier system. If I had used depo in another set of injections within the last 3-4 months it could be longer. Vets practicing on the racetrack will not even use depo at all, which often results in joints having to be injected more frequently with other less effective products. Of course we all know every time you go in to a joint you take a risk, and other products such as vetalog and betamethasone can build up also and cause a bad test, so it's not like these rules are actually helping horses in my opinion. One more thing, there was not a zero tolerance rule for Beta, the allowable level was 10 picograms, MS had 21 picograms. Not being able to run on lasix could have easily made that difference. Having a lasix-free triple crown series probably means none of these horses will run back very well. MS ran the race of his life two weeks ago with no lasix, anyone who thinks his performance yesterday is due to no betamethasone in his system is an idiot.
Edited by Barnmom 2021-05-16 1:15 PM
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | Barnmom - 2021-05-16 1:07 PM
Frodo - 2021-05-15 8:45 AM
Don't be so quick to condemn. Jockey Mike Smith is an honest Christian guy very well spoken. He said the amount of steroid in this horse's system was equivalent to one drop of water in three Olympic size pools.
It could have been hanging in his system for weeks. Even D Wayne Lucas defended his competitor and said the rules have become so complicated it's hard to know what's right.
The amount is extremely relevant.
The rules have become very complicated. Barrel racers that go get a horses hocks injected, then run in a barrel race three weeks later, have no idea how hard it is to comply with the rules now. I just had two of my race mares worked on and we used Depo in thier hocks because Vetalog and Beta just don't last in hocks. I can't race for at least 30 days, state vets actually suggest longer but there really are no hard and fast stats on how long it takes for depo to clear. To be absolutely safe, I really should wait 60 days and only because they have not had any other joints injected with Depo for the last 6 months because it can build up in thier system. If I had used depo in another set of injections within the last 3-4 months it could be longer.
Vets practicing on the racetrack will not even use depo at all, which often results in joints having to be injected more frequently with other less effective products. Of course we all know every time you go in to a joint you take a risk, and other products such as vetalog and betamethasone can build up also and cause a bad test, so it's not like these rules are actually helping horses in my opinion.
One more thing, there was not a zero tolerance rule for Beta, the allowable level was 10 picograms, MS had 21 picograms. Not being able to run on lasix could have easily made that difference. Having a lasix-free triple crown series probably means none of these horses will run back very well. MS ran the race of his life two weeks ago with no lasix, anyone who thinks his performance yesterday is due to no betamethasone in his system is an idiot.
I don't see anyone stating that it was zero tolerance for the drug .... but zero tolerance for BREAKING THE RULE ! ! |
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
      Location: Tulsa, Ok | I personally am sick of people that think the rules don't app!y to them. Who you are should have no impact on flaunting the rules. Just because you disagree with them does not make you right or exempt you. If you screw up and make a mistake that is on you. The rest of theworld shouldn't have to accomodate. If you don't want to play by the rules, take your toys and go home. Enuff with the whining and attorneys. And that applys well beyond the track. |
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"Heck's Coming With Me"
Posts: 10794
        Location: Kansas | If you folks knew how many rules are broken in horse racing you'd laugh at how miniscule this incident is. When a trainer doesn't want a youngster to break his/her maiden but wants the animal to have an out or two until they can find a suitable purse to win, they simply pull them up just enough to lose the race. It happens all the time. Does the betting public know this.....nope. That's just one example. My relation trained at the big tracks. Sadly I know these things.
Edited by Frodo 2021-05-16 9:31 PM
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 A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
              Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Frodo - 2021-05-16 9:25 PM If you folks knew how many rules are broken in horse racing you'd laugh at how miniscule this incident is. When a trainer doesn't want a youngster to break his/her maiden but wants the animal to have an out or two until they can find a suitable purse to win, they simply pull them up just enough to lose the race. It happens all the time. Does the betting public know this.....nope. That's just one example. My relation trained at the big tracks. Sadly I know these things. Thats what we call sand bagging here in Texas and pretty sure in other places to, happen alot at NBHA in the early days and a few people got into hot water over holding up their horses to stay in a certain D.
Edited by Southtxponygirl 2021-05-16 9:42 PM
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Nut Case Expert
Posts: 9305
      Location: Tulsa, Ok | Frodo - 2021-05-16 9:25 PM
If you folks knew how many rules are broken in horse racing you'd laugh at how miniscule this incident is. When a trainer doesn't want a youngster to break his/her maiden but wants the animal to have an out or two until they can find a suitable purse to win, they simply pull them up just enough to lose the race. It happens all the time. Does the betting public know this.....nope. That's just one example. My relation trained at the big tracks. Sadly I know these things.
My husband trained quarter horses for years. We owned and ran many of our own as well as clients horses. I am very familiar with things that go on at the track. With that being said, the rules are what they are and there needs to be a zero tolerance across the board for all the connections. There is no equitable way for rules to be enforced in degrees depending on what horse is involved, who the owners and trainer are and what mood the stewards are in on any given day. |
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Defense Attorney for The Horse
   Location: Claremore, OK | Barnmom - 2021-05-16 1:07 PM
Frodo - 2021-05-15 8:45 AM
Don't be so quick to condemn. Jockey Mike Smith is an honest Christian guy very well spoken. He said the amount of steroid in this horse's system was equivalent to one drop of water in three Olympic size pools.
It could have been hanging in his system for weeks. Even D Wayne Lucas defended his competitor and said the rules have become so complicated it's hard to know what's right.
The amount is extremely relevant.
The rules have become very complicated. Barrel racers that go get a horses hocks injected, then run in a barrel race three weeks later, have no idea how hard it is to comply with the rules now. I just had two of my race mares worked on and we used Depo in thier hocks because Vetalog and Beta just don't last in hocks. I can't race for at least 30 days, state vets actually suggest longer but there really are no hard and fast stats on how long it takes for depo to clear. To be absolutely safe, I really should wait 60 days and only because they have not had any other joints injected with Depo for the last 6 months because it can build up in thier system. If I had used depo in another set of injections within the last 3-4 months it could be longer.
Vets practicing on the racetrack will not even use depo at all, which often results in joints having to be injected more frequently with other less effective products. Of course we all know every time you go in to a joint you take a risk, and other products such as vetalog and betamethasone can build up also and cause a bad test, so it's not like these rules are actually helping horses in my opinion.
One more thing, there was not a zero tolerance rule for Beta, the allowable level was 10 picograms, MS had 21 picograms. Not being able to run on lasix could have easily made that difference. Having a lasix-free triple crown series probably means none of these horses will run back very well. MS ran the race of his life two weeks ago with no lasix, anyone who thinks his performance yesterday is due to no betamethasone in his system is an idiot.
What barrel racing association, (besides the WPRA) has such strict drug use rules ? Most steroids aren't detectable after 3 days, for sure, 7.
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  Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7617
    Location: Dubach, LA | fatchance - 2021-05-15 9:44 AM
IF every barrel racer out there haven't bought this super cream they are missing out! Just a little dab will make your horse a super star!
Just sayin......
Where do I buy? I need some. Maybe for me. |
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  Keeper of the King Snake
Posts: 7617
    Location: Dubach, LA | Southtxponygirl - 2021-05-16 9:40 PM
Frodo - 2021-05-16 9:25 PM
If you folks knew how many rules are broken in horse racing you'd laugh at how miniscule this incident is. When a trainer doesn't want a youngster to break his/her maiden but wants the animal to have an out or two until they can find a suitable purse to win, they simply pull them up just enough to lose the race. It happens all the time. Does the betting public know this.....nope. That's just one example. My relation trained at the big tracks. Sadly I know these things.
Thats what we call sand bagging here in Texas and pretty sure in other places to, happen alot at NBHA in the early days and a few people got into hot water over holding up their horses to stay in a certain D.
It still happens. All one needs to do is know how fast his or her horse runs on the straights. You glance up at the clock when you turn the third and you know exactly what to do. |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16572
       Location: Displaced Iowegian | In its decision, the NYRA said it took into account failed drug tests in the recent past by horses trained by the Hall of Fame trainer, resulting in penalties leveled by regulators in Kentucky, California, and Arkansas. https://www.racingpost.com/news/bob-baffert-suspended-from-having-runners-at-aqueduct-belmont-park-and-saratoga/490500 |
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