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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Hello all! I'm new to this board. I recently purchased an appendix gelding who is way on the thoroughbreddy side. He has low heels and long toes, (I'm working with my farrier to try and help this situation) anyways, he has suggested Natural balance shoes. How many of you out there have had any luck good or bad with them? Also, if you have put them on your horses, did you follow suit all the way around, or did you put just Natural balance shoes on the front, followed by a regular rim shoe on the back? Thanks in advance for any ideas.
Edited by Deuce22 2004-03-29 10:39 AM
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 Barrel Racing Barbie in Training
Posts: 9438
        Location: Somewhere Down in Texas | Its always been my un derstandoing that Natural Balance is a type of shoeing more than the shoes. And in my experience with it its hurt more horses than it has helped. The Shoer needs to be very qualified to do it. (Not saying your isn't) But I've seen a few really good hrses screwed up around here by a couple of shoers claiming to be Natural Balance Gurus. |
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 Sexy Bee Yacht
Posts: 5849
      Location: WA | My experience with the NB shoes was good. It helped my mare get up off her heels and erect like she should be. BUT, he didn't do much different on her procedure wise, and I hear this is the rarity. She had on the flat front shoes, that are wider than regular shoes. She had them all the way around. My only complaint was that they were really tight on her heels, so I am sure that was not good. But she started growing out better with these on than the regular rims, fluke or not, who knows. Then I moved and my shoer here was not going to do it and he has had more progress with just the regular rims, regular trimming of the feet before resetting shoes, etc., nothing special. Both of my farriers (The one who did NB and the current) are good farriers. So..... don't know if this helped you any! |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Yes, that does help! I was also concerned about the tightness in the heel dept. I will have to wait and see how it goes, hopefully they will help him regain a normal setting. Did you notice your mare was moving better in the NB shoes? |
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 Straight Shooter
Posts: 5725
     Location: SW North Dakota | Hi! Glad to see you here! Hope you get some good advice on your horse, I am sure you will! |
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 Sexy Bee Yacht
Posts: 5849
      Location: WA | I had them done last spring..... I had not worked her hard before they were done and the day they were done, I took her out to an arena and worked her pretty good (she has never gotten sore on me, so I felt ok doing this). She moved a lot better and her stride seemed better to me. I am always cautious attributing results to one single thing, but it SEEMED to help her.... once they were removed she retained this better stride and movement, so I am not 100% on what the cause was..... |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Time will tell I guess! Thanks for your insight! |
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  Potato Soup Queen
       Location: Alabama | Since I use them in my business I guess I'll answer this one also. NB shoeing is a technique along with using a special shoe. If you have a farrier familiar with the application then you are all set. Otherwise you could run into some problems if he/she isn't. There is a right way to apply them, they are not the same as traditional shoes. Second, there are 2 distinct types of NB shoes. Aluminum and the Steel NB. If you look at them, the two are not the same at all. The aluminum is a much better shoe than the other as the web is much wider all around and at the toe callous area which is where the tip of the coffin bone sits. I use aluminum on the fronts and either a rim shoe or NB Steel behind. What I don't like about them is when you do shape them to the hoof, you make a bend in the aluminum ones and you have to knock it back out at the toe pillars. I try to "fit" the shoe at the toe pillar area and NOT close in the heels as long as the horse has heel support under him with the shoe. What is wrong with leaving it wide? It's actually better for the horse to leave as much shoe as you can for a base of support. If they stick out too much, put bell boots on the horse. I am just against too much of shaping a shoe to a pathological hoof, it sort of defeats the purpose when trying to reshape a hoof to achieve proper hoof form and function. What I find myself using more of than the NB is Cytek Shoes. I really really like this shoe a lot! Sometimes though on horse's that are quite contracted, I have to go to a NB so I can shape it some at the heels. Therapeutically, they are both pretty equal in their approach. They address breakover, which is what you want. (Esp. if you have an underrun long toed horse which is what you have by your description) At least you have a farrier that recognizes the problems your horse has and has a way to help solve it. He/she is advising the correct approach so you are in good hands it sounds like. Debi |
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 "Sweetheart of the Rodeo"
     Location: Montana | I have used Natural Balance Shoes on some of my horses and I really think that this shoe, just like all the other shoes, might not fit a horse in particular. I have one horse that does well with Natural Balance and one horse that we tried with Natural Balance to correct a problem, and it didn't work for him. I think you should try it. I've seen Natural Balance do wonders, but you need a qualified farrier. Best of luck! |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The problem I see with the NB shoes and any other pre-shaped keg shoe that are not supposed to be and usually can't be reshaped, is that they aren't shaped properly for a front foot. They are shaped for a long narrow hoof (like the hind). Front feet are supposed to be nearly round, not long and narrow. The trim is the single most important part of a good shoe job. When viewed from the side, the angle of the coffin bone MUST be at the same angle as the pastern bone. When viewed from the front the hoof should have balance from one side to the other, heels always the same length. The pairs should match (front to front and hind to hind) each other. 
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  Potato Soup Queen
       Location: Alabama | Originally written by OregonBR on 2004-03-29 1:24 PM The problem I see with the NB shoes and any other pre-shaped keg shoe that are not supposed to be and usually can't be reshaped, is that they aren't shaped properly for a front foot. They are shaped for a long narrow hoof (like the hind). Front feet are supposed to be nearly round, not long and narrow. 
The NB shoe is made to be shaped if needed. It's aluminum and therefore harder to shape, but, you can still shape them. Of course the Steel NB can be shaped just like all other keg shoes. I don't agree though that they come shaped long and narrow like a hind shoe, they are round like a front hoof should be shaped. I'm looking at a brand new one right now. I also have other types of shoes here such as kerkhardt, St. Croix, and Cytek and all the front shoes are round compared to the rear shoes, with the exception of the Cyteks...they are all the same shape front and rear. Debi |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Wow! thanks for all that great info Debi. He went and put steel NB's all the way around. Don't know whether that will be good or not. I was never offered the option of the aluminum, nor did I realize that they were available in aluminum. Have you ever used steel NB's on the fronts? This horse is not lame in any sense, he just thought it would be a good option for him because of the way his feet are set. |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Originally written by Farrierlady on 2004-03-29 11:38 AM Originally written by OregonBR on 2004-03-29 1:24 PM The problem I see with the NB shoes and any other pre-shaped keg shoe that are not supposed to be and usually can't be reshaped, is that they aren't shaped properly for a front foot. They are shaped for a long narrow hoof (like the hind). Front feet are supposed to be nearly round, not long and narrow. 
The NB shoe is made to be shaped if needed. It's aluminum and therefore harder to shape, but, you can still shape them. Of course the Steel NB can be shaped just like all other keg shoes. I don't agree though that they come shaped long and narrow like a hind shoe, they are round like a front hoof should be shaped. I'm looking at a brand new one right now. I also have other types of shoes here such as kerkhardt, St. Croix, and Cytek and all the front shoes are round compared to the rear shoes, with the exception of the Cyteks...they are all the same shape front and rear. Debi The ones (aluminum) that I have had my hands on didn't take kindly to reshaping. They twisted. I have held them up to a trimmed foot ready to shoe before and they are usually too narrow for my horses feet and/or stick out the back too far. So YES they are shaped too long and narrow for my horses.
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 Straight Shooter
Posts: 5725
     Location: SW North Dakota | bumping this up, JIC... |
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  Potato Soup Queen
       Location: Alabama | Yes I have used the steel NB on the fronts and I like them, just not as much as the aluminum. The aluminum simply offer more support to the coffin bone and the web is wider for all around support. They are difficult to shape, but, it can be done with some practice. I know I "ruined" a few before I learned how to do it. Maybe that's why your farrier didn't offer them to you...they can be tricky. In your case, if I were your farrier, I would have done the same thing in theory, so you are on the right road. Debi |
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  Potato Soup Queen
       Location: Alabama | /QUOTE] The ones (aluminum) that I have had my hands on didn't take kindly to reshaping. They twisted. I have held them up to a trimmed foot ready to shoe before and they are usually too narrow for my horses feet and/or stick out the back too far. So YES they are shaped too long and narrow for my horses.
I totally agree they are very tricky to shape. I've ruined a couple of them before I got the hang of it. If you ever decide you needed them in the future, the easy thing to do is find the size that fits across the toe pillar area and if it's too long at the heels simply grind off the heels shorter. I do this sometimes and it works well. But, I have to agree with you as I've run into the same situation as you before. Debi |
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 Best of the Badlands
          Location: You never know where I will show up...... | I have one horse that likes running in NBS shoes but the rest of the horses I have run in "normal" shoes. My vet is not a big fan of NBS shoes. But I think they help some horses, like the one I have. Your farrier has to know what they are doing though, to apply them, but they should know what they are doing if they are shoeing any horse LOL! |
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 Keeper of the Watch
        
| My farrier is at www.hooftalk.com He can talk to you too via e-mail if you go to his website. He definitely has a different opinion about NB shoes that I'm sure he will share with you. P.<>< |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Thanks to all who replied to this query. Here is what's happening 3 days into riding with these new NB shoes: He is moving fine on the front, but seems to be having trouble on his backs. He is forging a bit,and not stopping as well on his hind end as before the shoes. He does have some previous heel bruising (cherries). remember this is a thoroughbreddy horse with low flat heels and long toes (which farrier is trying to correct) My question is this: if he's moving fine on his fronts, should I remove the shoes in back and let him go barefoot in the backs til the remainder of the bruising(cherries) is healed or should I try and put him back in a regular rim shoe with more support? The bruising shows no obvious pain on palpation, he will occasionally 'kick out' a hind leg after exercise. Now I am assuming it's the heel bruising that's causing some ouchiness as his hocks appear good and have been xrayed clean. Anyone have a horse who has or has had heel bruises? This is the first one I've dealt with. Any suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks!
Edited by Deuce22 2004-03-31 11:22 AM
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 Keeper of the Watch
        
| Did your farrier dub off his back hooves too? If so, this will cause a horse to forge even more. Please e-mail my farrier at www.hooftalk.com His name is Bergy, he's been a farrier for a very long time and he will be glad to answer your questions via e-mail. |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Yes he did dub his backs off. thanks for the info Pam, I will send off an email to your farrier and see if he has any suggestions for me. |
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 Keeper of the Watch
        
| You are welcome! Keep us updated! P.<>< |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 518
 Location: Wyoming | I have a big quarter horse that has those dang thourobred feet. I am constantly fighting underslung heals. What a pain. My husband is my shoer. We use St. croix lite rims all the way around. He shoes him full trying to get those heals to follow the shoe. He also leaves a bit of a trailer for support. By the 2nd or 3rd shoeing he looks pretty good. I can't leave the shoes off him for long or he goes back. Just thought I would put my 2 cents in for what it's worth. |
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 Keeper of the Watch
        
| Originally written by lynn 3 on 2004-03-31 11:59 AM
I have a big quarter horse that has those dang thourobred feet. I am constantly fighting underslung heals. What a pain. My husband is my shoer. We use St. croix lite rims all the way around. He shoes him full trying to get those heals to follow the shoe. He also leaves a bit of a trailer for support. By the 2nd or 3rd shoeing he looks pretty good. I can't leave the shoes off him for long or he goes back. Just thought I would put my 2 cents in for what it's worth. Deuces, Just to clarify. Please don't let your farrier leave "trailers" on the fronts or you can get killed running barrels! Lynn3 I'm not trying to be a "know it all" here just trying to keep Deuces safe. Hope I didn't offend you in any way- no harm was intended. P.<>< |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 518
 Location: Wyoming | Thanks Pam, its all about learning and discussing what works and what doesn't. Thanks for the advice. As of yet I haven't had a problem other than he will pull a shoe now and then in the mud. I will mention that to my hubby next time. Another thing I was going to mention was that because his walls are so thin we went to using a slim nail or a race nail. |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Lynn, did you have a problem with heel bruising with him? This is the first horse I've had with feet like this. ps. your two cents is appreciated! |
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 Hero of the Year
Posts: 10767
       Location: Haslet, Texas | I started using nbs shoes on my horse because my vet advised me to. He has all his horses shod this way. It helped take alot of undue stress off my horses ankles by giving him the support he needed. He has a much smoother walk and break over than he did before. Made him alot quicker in his turns. My husband has shod my horses since we have been married and we went to the vet clinic and shod the horse per my vets instructions and have never had a problem. Anytime I put a regular set of shoes on him I can tell the difference in the way he travels in the front. I use the steel shoes. I know the alum. have more cover area but they just look to flimsy to us. We usually use the keirkart sx8 shoes. If you know what they are, they are a wide, heavy shoe and have always had the best of luck with them. I use them on the back. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 518
 Location: Wyoming | Originally written by Deuce22 on 2004-03-31 11:51 AM
Lynn, did you have a problem with heel bruising with him? This is the first horse I've had with feet like this. ps. your two cents is appreciated! Very seldom will he come up with a bruise on his heels. He will have a bruise now and then on his frog. Nothing that seems to bother him but they are there. What I have problems with are bruises on the toe. He bruises easily. These flat thourobred feet are a big pain in the butt and take maintenence far more than good quarter horse feet as you probably well know. FYI I had another horse a few years ago with the same type of feet. At the time my brother in law was shoeing her. He hot shoed her to drive the blood back. Sure seemed to toughen her feet up. |
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  Potato Soup Queen
       Location: Alabama | Originally written by lynn 3 on 2004-03-31 1:53 PM Originally written by Deuce22 on 2004-03-31 11:51 AM
Lynn, did you have a problem with heel bruising with him? This is the first horse I've had with feet like this. ps. your two cents is appreciated! Very seldom will he come up with a bruise on his heels. He will have a bruise now and then on his frog. Nothing that seems to bother him but they are there. What I have problems with are bruises on the toe. He bruises easily. These flat thourobred feet are a big pain in the butt and take maintenence far more than good quarter horse feet as you probably well know. FYI I had another horse a few years ago with the same type of feet. At the time my brother in law was shoeing her. He hot shoed her to drive the blood back. Sure seemed to toughen her feet up. Hi Lynn, Not wanting to start anything for sure here, but, thought I'd state some points on your post. Hope you don't mind. If you have bruising at the toe, are you talking about the white line had blood in it when the horse is trimmed to have his shoes reset? If so, that is not actual bruising. It's blood that has seeped into the laminae and it will show at the toe area. Sometimes it will happen if too much leverage is on the toes of the horse. And hot shoeing a horse (as a rule) is done on bad feet that dont' hold a shoe well, or real wet feet. It won't 'drive the blood' back up into the foot though, at best it might cortorize(sp?) it if it's bleeding. The other reason a farrier might choose to hot shoe is to level the hoof prior to shoe application. As for the foreging issue if you really think about it, it has more to do with the front feet than the rear in most cases. It usually happens because the horse is leaving the front hoof on the ground too long, thus letting the hind hit it as it comes up. Makes me wonder if the NB shoes were set correctly on your horse Duece. Sometimes, believe it or not, a horse that has never worn these shoes before will forge as a result of the "feeling" he gets with them on. They are no longer supported to the end of their toes, as the toe is off the ground with the shoes on and hangs over the front of the shoe. Makes some horse's feel like they are tipping over and they will leave the foot on the ground longer than they should be until they get used to it. This is usally a temporary situation AND it rarely happens. (And it's usually younger horse's that have this tendency) Debi |
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Regular
Posts: 51
  Location: Under the Northern Lights | Wow, very interesting. That maybe what is going on, just not sure of his new feet yet. I was able to get ahold of my farrier this evening and will take my horse in tomorrow morning. we are going to try some web shoes on his backs instead for support. Hopefully the problems will end with that. Thanks to all again for your replies and helpful information! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 518
 Location: Wyoming | Hi debi,No he bruises on the sole. I haven't had problems this year yet especially considering all the frozen stuff that was around. I disagree on the hot shoeing. It sure toughened up that mares feet. I also want to say what an idiot I am. My horse is not shoed with trailers on the front. Jeez you would think I would know that since I pick up his feet everyday. He is just shod very full. Sorry. I had to edit this. I had my group come in and had to get to work. On the hot shoeing I totally agree with you on why farriers use it. I just wanted to add that it helped to toughen her up. Thank you for the info on the toe bruising to. I will definately keep an eye on that and pass along the info. You will have a hard time starting anything with me. The more I learn, and I have been around horses all my life and feel fairly competent, the more I realize I don't know. I love to learn. Thank you so much for the information. javascript:smilie('51',' ');javascript:smilie('51',' ');
Edited by lynn 3 2004-04-01 1:05 PM
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
       Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Originally written by Farrierlady on 2004-03-31 8:33 PM If you have bruising at the toe, are you talking about the white line had blood in it when the horse is trimmed to have his shoes reset? If so, that is not actual bruising. It's blood that has seeped into the laminae and it will show at the toe area. Sometimes it will happen if too much leverage is on the toes of the horse. And hot shoeing a horse (as a rule) is done on bad feet that dont' hold a shoe well, or real wet feet. It won't 'drive the blood' back up into the foot though, at best it might cortorize(sp?) it if it's bleeding. The other reason a farrier might choose to hot shoe is to level the hoof prior to shoe application. As for the foreging issue if you really think about it, it has more to do with the front feet than the rear in most cases. It usually happens because the horse is leaving the front hoof on the ground too long, thus letting the hind hit it as it comes up. Debi I agree completely with you Debi. I have also noticed the bruising on the toe of horses feet that have been left too long in the toe.  Most shoers dub the hind toe off (speeding up the break over) instead of speeding up the front foot breakover to combat forging and over reaching. I have a hard time understanding their thinking (backassward to me).  I had a mare that was really thin soled. When I was competing on her at rodeos where the ground was prone to being cloddy and rocky, I cauterized her hind feet instead of padding them. I used iodine crystals and turpentine to create a chemical reation and burned the sole to create a tough barrier.  |
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