Geez,

So are we going to have to start asking for a ladies only futurity? Flame me if you want but I have an issue with this.  I only saw a couple of women on the entries. It is getting to the point where its almost usless to try to even compete against the men. It even makes my husband mad to see me competing against them and he hardly rides.  Just had to say something.  Let the flames begin...  

From the results of futurities I have seen, there are alot of male riders.  These guys are riding many horses in these futurities.  Maybe there just fewer women entering on only a few horses instead of 6 or 8 head. 

we'll go to our grave disagreeing on this one...LoL

I'm not flaming, but I am disagreeing...   You have a couple of men who happen to be very good at what they do...and they currently have good horses to ride.

As far as men being stronger and having an unfair advantage...my only reply would be so....women have better balance.    Does that give them an unfair advantage over the males other than Crumrine or Coffey (sp?)?   Possibly...but I'd say line'em up...and let the horses decide!  

Not to mention we have a HUGE weight ADVANTAGE over these guys, our horses can really fly with our little butts on them!!!!! LOL

As far as muscle being an advantage, I'll arm-wrestle any one of those guys for a pink slip to their horse!!!

Not to mention we have a HUGE weight ADVANTAGE over these guys, our horses can really fly with our little butts on them!!!!! LOL

I completely disagree!  Troy, Chris, Jaime Hunt, are very skinny small men.  And this may tick some women off but I see more overweight women in this sport than any of the men.  To me the men take it very seriously like real jockeys and keep their weight down.  Most of the women don't.  I for one think the likes of Charmayne and Sherry are much classier in the saddle than ANY man running barrels. 

I agree with you CARLOS, I WOULD  LOVE to see a match race between the top 10 women(most money won) & the top 10 men! Maybe we could get something going here on BHW & sponsor something like this. Wouldn't that be neat! We could web cast it too. You would have both men & women watching to see who would be the best!

So are you saying you don't want to run against men, or just against men who enter more than one horse.   

If you go to a barrel race and see that Kelly Yates, or any other top pro,  has entered multiple horses, do you draw out because she has a better chance of getting a check?

I'll be honest, some of these guys riding styles do nothing for me. But it works for them. People pay them a lot of money to train & run their horses.  They have multiple horses running because people pay them to do it. 

Ok, now that I've had some sleep! When I saw the topic, I was picturing guys on a rotisserie, for GP.(Guess it was the Rainy days and men topic). This morning I was "DUH! Turn and Burn Futurity"   Anyhooo, yep, it looks like the guys have taken over the gals hobby. Eons ago, I remember guys having their own class at futurities and there were "maybe" less than a half dozen. Notice also, this was about the same era that women were crying about equal rights, yadda, yadda. Well, just goes to show, be careful what you wish for! JMO All in all, I liked it better when it was segregated. My hubby also agrees about guys running against gals, he does'nt like it either, but since it's here, he just makes sure our horses have enough handle on them so I don't have to out muscle the guys. (yes, most of those man driven horses are being yanked around, pictures don't lie, nor do my eyes, again, JMObservation) As far as the weight issue, how many of the guys have had kids? or have to take care of household stuff, chase kids around, work all the horses...you have to eat something to keep up strength...oh, genetics play in there somewhere too. I'm not saying all are "voluptuous" due to this, Krispy Kremes pop in the picture quite often! I'm not at my young age weight either and no matter how much I try, I'll never get there unless I quit eating all together, nor can I lop off about 6 inches off my 5'8 height, so I just accept it and ride harder. Guess what I'm trying to say, altho I don't agree with what's going on nowadays, it's probably not going to change, so I just buck up and keep on keeping on, and accept things for the way it is now. Rodeo has also changed so much since the old days, but if you want to compete, you need to conform. I'm not going to flame anyone for difference of opinion, and guys, please don't take offense, we're just voicing our thoughts.

All butt-jokes aside, my real opinion as to why we are seeing more men is MONEY.  Face it, there is a ton of cash at these futurities and not to mention the sale of the horse they are running.  Barrel racing is big time money in the futurity arena and gender aside they are there to get a piece of it too. 

Really, do you think we would be seeing as many men if they were just running for a buckle??

JMO don't hurt me!!!

 You took the words

It's always been my view that if you start crying about how unfair it is....you have already lost and you may as well get a new hobby.  Life is not fair. 

You have to work harder to equalize the playing field if you don't have as many blessings as the next guy/gal.  

Replying to cowgirlup's post:

I'm not saying I completely disagree with your post...I understand what it's like to get sick of the political issues in the horse show world.  But really, if one wants more "coverage" if they're a 3D/4D rider, why don't they run NBHA or some divisionally-formatted race rather than a straight-up AQHA race? You're making a lot more money for winning or placing in some division of a 3D race than you are even winning an AQHA barrel race. 

My main opinion toward the "clique" issue at shows...that's always been around, and it will always be around, so whether one is making a living out of showing, or is a weekend warrior out there just to have fun, they should just get used to it.  One that's out there to make a good name for themself and to get something done at a race should just ignore the "political" aspects of this industry.  You're more than likely going to get something accomplished to receive that coverage you want when you're focusing more on your horses and races, instead of the yahoos in their cliques.  JMHO :) Have a nice day guys! 

I read this post three times now and I am still not sure I am understanding it. I've seen the word "Segragation" used. I've read "Weight" issue, I also read "Pro" issue?

For those that are complaining about men I think your issue is not the gender it's how many most of them are able to ride in one race. I think it is called making  a living. They are "Pro's" and this is their job, a lot of the folks that are at these futurities are "hobby runners and living a dream".  Odds are against you on numbers yes, but I feel it doesn't have to do with gender.(How soon we forget Kim Landry )

Weight.....I call this a no brainer. We all know the lighter you are the better off we are and the horses are. We have weight allowances at the track for a reason....and when they pack in the lead on the saddle of the favorite race horse it's called handicapping for a reason.

I think that the barrel racing world has accommodated all walks of life and if you enter wisely it's a great ride.

 I know I have limits I don't need someone kicking it to remind me.

No flames just facts...Sharon Smith Kim Landry, Alona James, Kim Thomas, Jackie Dube, Betty Roper, the list goes on and on of successful female futurity riders. Most also rode/ride multiple horses. If you are intimidated by the male riders, unless you can overcome it, you will not outrun them. Take my word for it, anybody who is winning at the futurities has made lots of sacrifices and put in many more hours than you could imagine to get there.

Originally written by K O on 2004-04-11 10:16 PM

I have to agree.  Until they limit the # of horses people can ride nothing will change.

Huh?  

I'd like to see the sport cleaned up too, but don't kid yourself, with this much money at stake, it's not just the men using drugs, or mistreating their horses.  One of the worst cases of physical abuse at a futurity that I personally witnessed was by a top woman rider, who obviously only cared about the finals money, and not the welfare of her horse!

 I have to agree with fatchance here....Men might be stronger, but gender has absolutly nothing to do with it. These men have a lot more good horses available at their fingertips than the average person. I do not have a problem with letting men compete, they same way we do.

The fact of the matter is, if they were losing, no one would have a problem with it. JMO.

I myself, like the pride in accomplishment in training my own, and seasoning my own, then competing on my own.  I guess  these people competing on everyone elses horse, I don't look up to as much as I do the ones that do it all them selves on something they actually own.  Maybe they should make that a rule,,,he he he, I find it funny but up here, men get laughed at for being a memeber of the "Iowa Mens Barrel Assoc" I guess most people view it as a "womens sport" I know I admire the styles of more women than men, but it doesn't bother me to run against either, no matter who they are and what they are riding, I just take pride in owning what I am on.  JMO  I do like to watch men in other sports, saddle bronc, cutting, racing, roping etc. but I also don't think women "should" nessicarly be doing any of those things professionally either. JMO, well, cutting and racing not so much, I admire those who do anything and do it well, no matter the gender.

Marne Loosenort rides as many, if not more, horses than any of the men. I haven't noticed anything "manly" about her.

Maybe people consider her to be drugging and cowboying the horses? Maybe they want her segregated out of competition, too?

I prefer to think she has talent, just as the men that are at the top have.

I ran into a old friend recently that used to be a horse show announcer at all the big shows in Ky and Tn. He said, "you've been doing pretty good over the last years haven't you?" I replied that I had been very lucky, he said, "I figured you had, I head some people bad-mouthing you not long ago".

He meant it as a joke, but, there is a ton of truth in his statement.

I tried to poke fun with the butt comment early on in this post........Main reason being that I have never and probably will never run in a futurity.  Therefor, the politics that surrounds that end of the sport does not affect me directly.  In other words, my opinion is really not based on any experience whatsoever, I was just trying to keep it on the light side.

I do know that the reason I no longer attend the pleasure shows was because of politics but that is a whole different ballgame when a judge's opinion is what decides the class and not an un-biosed timer.

Futurities are getting to be as big of a business as the racing industry is and with that you will have the heavy hitters.  It is a great boost for our sport, finally barrel racing is being taken seriously, not just as "something for the women to do"

Me and my NBHA mare (part-time rodeo) are happy to be where we are and if that's all we'll ever be, that's fine with me.  I can't afford now and probably never will be able too run with those "big dogs"

I agree with you Tx3.  I think a few people hit on why it might be hard for a woman to get the mounts, or the same quality of horses as the guys.  It all depends on your priorities and what your goals are.  If your goal is to get the satisfaction of training and competing on your home raised colt, then you probably have a statistically lesser chance of coming up with a top 5 futurity colt becaus you ar putting all your eggs in one basket.  I know it can be done...look at Carissa Shearer, but I also think that maybe the futurities should make the non-pro division for owner/riders only.  That would help the people who have 1 colt a year to train and compete on.   A lot of women don't want to devote the time to training colts, and choose to rodeo instead, but the guys don't have that option.  Plus, there are a lot more guys East of the Mississippi that run barrels, so talking about all the guys at Turn N Burn would be a lot different than talking about the guys at a futurity in California.

On the other hand, if your goal is to win as much $$$ as you can because barrel horses and futurities are your profession, and you have a family to feed, then you ride the best colts you can find, and as many as you can find, no matter who trained them.  There's no disgrace in having the talent to jump on a strange horse and run one of the fastest times of the day.  I've always felt that the argument, "I don't have as much respect for those who compete on horses they didn't train", has sort of a tone of jealousy to it.  It takes as much talent to ride a top futurity horse too.  

It's true that a lot of women have kids and a family to care for, and that keeps some of them from spending as much time with their horses as they'd like, but barrel racing at the futurity level is a sport that you need a lot of support from your family and friends to be a winner.  It's so time comsuming training and hauling colts.  Most of the women winning at the top now don't have kids to worry about and they can devote 100% of their focus on their horses.  It's a matter of choices.  I still think if your family is behind you and will help you and support your efforts, that you can also be a top futurity rider. 

At the level we are talking about, to win, you have to be able to have a program in place where you are great at picking talented horses, and know when to quit one and go on to another one that is better suited to futurity competition.  I think more women tend to stick with one horse no matter what, even if it's a mediocre colt, and then they get outrun by someone who knows exactly what is needed to win, and they keep looking until they find that special horse to go to the futurities with.  One of the benefits of being a talented trainer or rider is that owners will bring you their colts to try, and you can pick the best ones to either ride or buy.  So, if your goal is to win at the futurity level, you need to work hard to prove yourself as a good trainer, or a talented jockey first, then the rest will fall in place.

Most of you from around Fort Worth, Texas will remember when Larry Stevens was around hers they started a whole other barrel racing association just so he could run.  All the others were for women only.  I always thought it was a crock because he was allowed to run at all the barrel races but just couldn't belong to them.  I honestly believe running against him helped shape my competativeness and stepped it up a notch.  I knew if he was there I had to ride hard and aggressive to win.  I ran against Larry on such horses as Magic(the paint that Charmayne owned later) Fretta, great mare, and Dr Nick Bar.  You can all agree that these were great horses and I won against Larry many times on my own home raised and trained horse.  He actually wanted to run her.

I don't futurity so alot of this doesn't affect me.  I have seen alot of men in the 4-D's.  I was surprised to see all the men entered at the Better Barrel Racing finals in OKC.  They met the requirements and came for the money.  It's as simple as that.  Money talks.

If you consider anatomy, it's the abdomen and lower body strength that will help you be a better rider, not upper body strength.  I don't think huge muscles are needed, just the strength to be confident enough to ride hard.  I also want to ride a horse that I don't have to pull on, and I think Kansas is right when she says that us women have a great advantage over the men because of our weight and we tend to train more correctly, so we need to capitalize on those things and get guttier and tougher mentally, and make our horses work for us more.

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!

Not every horse they are riding is winning.  But barrel racing is a gamble & any horse can put a run together & win some money @ some point.  Especially a youngster.

We have had lots of traffic in our facility the past few weeks.  One was once the head of the USTPA.  He personally couldn't understand how a barrel race could be fair with several jockeys riding outrageous numbers either.  EVERY assoc. limits except for the futurities.

I mean why would you play cards with a 8 armed man?...  Heeeheee!!!!  Get it he has got more hands than you!!!  Hahaha!!!

I think you read my mind!!!

One thing people need to remember is that a Futurity is based on each horse, not each rider. The Kentucky Derby has had multiple enteries from the same trainer, but they all run at the same time so using the same jockey certainly wouldn't work. If you run at a rodeo, it is based on the rider, and you can run the same horse as someone else.

I hope your colt is doing better Kendall! I see Buggies Jet everyday and he is looking great! Debbie and him are figuring each other out. I think they will be quite the team at the end of the summer. She is just taking it slow on the nice colt she got from you.

AMEN!!  

I think women have an advantage riding a finished (ie well trained) horse because we stay out of their way more than most men.  Most of the men I see lack finesse.  They're pulling on heads and throwing their weight around.  That can work to their advantage on a young horse, but they lose that advantage with the older horses.  The men that I consider to be good riders "ride like a woman"; soft hands, in the middle of their horses.

I have never ever gone to a barrel race and thought, "oh no, there's a lot of men here, I'm not going to win anything."  The gender of the riders absolutely does not cross my mind.  IMO, if it does, you're looking for an excuse.

This is going to be a long topic, so I only want to say this about # of horses, men, etc. 

1) A good friend of ours is a male rider (he is an older one) and years ago I remember him telling us that he starts off each season with 25 or more horses, then we starts working them he weeds them down to which horses he's going to futurity that next year.  He says he knows by 60 days of riding.  Well when you start off with that number you're really going to get what kind of horses you like and what your looking for.  I think people who don't do this for a living are at a more less advantage because they don't have the time and money to invest in a multiple number of horses to do this. 

2) Yes, men have more body strength then women do, and I for one do think they do man handle the horses around barrels (that's why it's so hard to see a futurity horse after the futurity year go on and be something else).  But I also think that if the arenas weren't so small the barrels wouldn't be set on the fence for the horse to bounce off of either, then I would like to see those guys try to run.  But it's a race like anyother.  And you can choose where you want to go and what you want to do.  With that being said:

3) I think a lot of people (women) running futurities feels this way.  That's why the 4D's are getting huge.  More people are happier taking their futurity colts to 4D's or 4D futurities because they can run their horses at their own pace and have a horse for the future. 

Now with all that out, Ok you can flame me if you want, but that's my one serious post for the day, I'm going to back to torturing you guys now!!! 

If you don't want to run against the top male riders at the futurities, go rodeo. Guess what -  You won't be able to beat the top riders there either.  Male or female it takes dedication to the be the best. 

 Do the guys have more muscle to bend some horses around - yeah.  We have to do what we've always done  - out think, out train, out ride.

I also think some guys snatch their horses, that's why many of us have said that women tend to train more correctly and we just need to add the guts to that to beat the men.  A more correctly trained, speedy horse with a rider that has guts will ourun them!  This is the reason we don't see some of these guy's top futurity horses winning as 10 yr. olds.  They are done with them, and the riders that follow them don't ride like that. 

 I have to differ with you on the small patterns.  Speedhorse at Tulsa was a measured standard WPRA pattern with barrels nowhere near a fence, and the winners were running 16.9's and 17.0's on those same horses.  They pick hard running horses with no resentment that will come the second they ask, so they will turn a barrel in any size pattern and win.

It only takes ONE good horse to outrun them and be at the top.  If you have chosen your horse wisely, trained it well and correctly, and can ride it competitively and confidently, you have a HUGE advantage over these guys with less weight and a better trained horse!  I don't understand why you think you can't compete against them.  There's no difference in Troy with 10 horses and Jackie with 6...if you have the better horse and can ride it well, you will be ahead of ALL of them with the $$$ in your pocket, or at least in between his horses.  What if there were 10 different riders on those same horses, would you enter then?  Think of it as HORSES entered...not riders, and it might change your focus.  You have to go in there with the attitude that you have the best horse and THEY have to outrun YOU.  Get gutty and get the blood in your eye, and want the win like your next meal depends on it.  I'm sure you already know what type of horse it takes to win a futurity, so if you are prepared ahead of time, and winning, you surely will have the confidence to go for it and feel like you can do it.... don't be so negative or you will get beat for sure. 

<i>If you don't want to run against the top male riders at the futurities, go rodeo. Guess what -  You won't be able to beat the top riders there either.  Male or female it takes dedication to the be the best.</i>

When I first read the initial post I took it as a small rant against fate and the fact that some of us can't be full time or ride 10-20 horses. I think it has gotten a bit out of hand with insults.

Not everyone can do the same and not everyone should. Personally men excell at many, many sports and they also win the majority of equine sports including reining and cutting more often than women. I took the post as "dang, I wish there were less men sometimes."

I don't think it's right to question someone's dedication based on a simple post where someone may have had an off day and wanted to vent a little.

JMO - and I think most of the posts had great points on both sides of the fence....

 Thats all that needs to be said!!! You put the whole barrel racing/competing world in that 1 paragraph!

I would think that too except the original poster came back and clarified her position. 

I think what some of us are trying to get across is that whatever you are after, it's hard work.  Some of us are not blessed with the same talents as others...that's where hard work comes in.  People who make it to the top of their sport work their  off to get it done. 

Male or Female...there are a set of limitations and advantages that come with each.  If you know your limitations, you can work to overcome them.  It takes sacrifice and single minded passion to reach the top.  A perfect example is Lance Armstrong.  That man is a maniac...any "normal" person would have rolled over and died or used his cancer as an excuse to quit.  What an inspiration to human will!!

YEAH...to what Cindy said.

So now making an observation makes you a negative person? Im not a negative person at all.  I am a realist however.  I have and will continue to compete against all of them.  I would just like to see a more even playing field especially with the number of horses allowed to enter. 

Justme, most of the trainers riding mulitple horses are hired by different owners to jockey their horses. Each horse is entered under those owners as an entry. If you limit the amount of horses ridden by a certain rider, you would actually be limiting the owners to entering which does'nt make sense. About the only way to do what you're wanting would be to have a breeder/owner/rider division. When you have to fork out that kind of $$ for expenses throughout, it would put the type of limits you're talking about in the classes, but then you would'nt have near the amount of $$ to run for.

I'm not flaming, and I know exactly how you feel, but the fact is that it will never change, so if you want to be competitive at futurities, you'll have to accept that to gain any advantage, you have to work hard to make your one horse be beter than any of his 10 horses.  I do think your comment about Troy is extremely negative, and affects your confidence right from the start.  If  you see Troy coming and immediately get frustrated because you don't have the same advantages, he's already beat you.  The brain is a very powerful motivator, or un-motivator, and it's up to you to decide to not worry about who's entered, or how many horses they have, and just go do your job and outrun them.  Don't even look at the list, just prepare, enter, and go make your best run and get the money. 

You say that one of his advantages is that he has a no holds barred win attitude...so you'll have to get tough and get that same attitude.  The pattern is the same for everyone, so that makes the playing field even.  You just have to find a way to get from point A to point B faster than he can.  If you mean that you don't have the advantage of riding 10 horses, then I would start doing all I could to make my one horse better than any of his 10.  What if there were 10 guys riding those horses, all as good as Troy...then what could you do?   Forget about all his horses and do your own thing.  If you have a quality colt with plenty of speed, and condition him so well that he can do his best, and then ride him tough, what have you got to lose?  Go for it!

Sounds like a "lifes not fair thing" to me! Of course it is not fair. It is not fair that some people have enough money to pay for expensive horses, trainers, and entry fees, when some of us can not even dream of having half of what they have. But the fact of the matter is, that the barrel racing industry is growing all the time. That means more men, more kids, and more women at these shows.

Sure it sucks that I can not load up 10 horses and make my way to a futurity, win, and then do the same thing the next weekend. But the fact of the matter is, that to continue showing at this level, you have to accept it.....the more entries that a race has, the more money it makes, while still paying out a fixed amount.

I doubt that it will ever come down to: you can only enter this many horses in this event. That means money loss and/or lesser payouts which equals disaster for the show producers.

I hate to lose as much as the next person, but if we limited any sport to a single sex it would decrease the entries. Take all the men away from barrel racing would be like shooting the sport in the foot. Yes it would take away a lot of competition, but with that it also takes away a lot of entries, added money, interest, snowballing down into breeding's, foal prices, etc..

If you don't like riding with men come on up to SD, they still get the "queer, fagot, gotta play with girls do ya sissy" attitude.. Keeps most of them out, but also keeps our pay back very low.. :) I will say it has gotten better, but nothing like what I was use to..

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I could not and would not send any of my horses to some of the men racing today. Simply put I couldn't ride like them nor would I want to. I want a horse to last me, not be a one hit wonder. I'm old school and I believe you shouldn't need "muscle" to get a horse around a barrel. Train that horse right and he knows where he is going to turn, just keep um moving..

We all have to start somewhere and the next top rider just could be you!

Snazzy - I bought a horse that Add Waddell trained several years back.  She ran her heart out for me and I rode her with practically nothing in her mouth.  I would NOT hesitate to buy from him or have him train one of mine.  He not only rides light handed and does a great job with his horses, he is great to work with and very helpful.  Just FYI.

Last I heard, winning was outrunning the competition. Seems to me if you ban everyone that is outrunning you, that ain't winning anything. You just take the sport out of the sport.

Thanks for your response...I know it is a little off topic here.

I will say if anyone hauls 10 horses to a show,,,,,,,it makes me tierd just thinking about it all! 

Holy smokes,   When I see someone that I read their name in the papers all the time, is entered at the same place as me, usually the thing that comes to my mind is, not "oh great, look who is entered" it's "humm, lets just see how close I can come to that horse and rider"  I may never blow um away, but I will sure give it my best, and call me lame, but I will hold my head up high and stick my chest out a little when I can say, I ran a half second off of any of um!!   JMO I just take pride in what I accomplished, and enjoy watching a good run, no matter who makes it, it does kinda suck when I have to sit there and smile as they take my money!  he he he he 

Makes ya try harder too...doesn't it??   You're only as good as your competition.  

Some people or horses aren't futurity material, that's why the 4D's are so big.  I know that's hurt the entries, but the non-pro divisions should give them a place to make money...and Troy can't qualify for that.  At Speedhorse in Tulsa, the fastest qualifying futuity time was a 17.0, and it took an 18.1 or less to qualify for the non-pro finals.   That's a 3-D time, folks....the money's there for the non-pros, all ya gotta do is enter and not be skeered!! 

AMEN!!!!!

I never meant this as an insult to anyone.  I just don't see how limiting someone's entries can make a difference in how you do at a barrel race. You're racing against time. Who cares who else is there or how many horses they have? You have to ride your own without worrying who shows up or you're beat before you unload your horse.

No bashing intended so please don't make me go to the "other" board.......

Is the bar  open yet?