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Elite Veteran
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| Has anyone ever had any experience with this? Feedback?
A girl that boards her horse at my barn ran into a lady who sells these. She is letter her try it to see if it help her horses fracture. I have never heard of the product but apparently its a low frequency laser therapy system.
Just wondering if it was worth the purchase for her of $1200.00? It is rechargable and you can get insurance on it for $198/yr and it is good to use all over their body for pain.
you can google it for more info as well. | |
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | If I were you, I would save my money. I seriously question the usefulness of this device. Some quack probably cleverly recognized that lasers are not very well understood, albeit fascinating to the average person....almost like one of those devices Dr McCoy used to use in Star Trek....the one that made this odd, high pitched noise....and voilla, cured!
This is a very questionable treatment modality, in my opinion. (I'm trying to say this in a "nice" way!) | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 667
| I kind of agree with you. I was skeptical and of course the lady only had one sucess story. Everyone these days is coming up with something new that miraculously(sp?) heals.. I appreciate your honesty and opinion :)
it was something that i had never heard of before and there is not a lot on the web about it either...
The horses owner asked me to see if i could find out more so i thought i would come here to hear options. Thank you!!  | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | TNcowgirl88 - 2014-08-28 12:27 PM
I kind of agree with you. I was skeptical and of course the lady only had one sucess story. Everyone these days is coming up with something new that miraculously (sp? ) heals.. I appreciate your honesty and opinion : )
it was something that i had never heard of before and there is not a lot on the web about it either...
The horses owner asked me to see if i could find out more so i thought i would come here to hear options. Thank you!!
That's smart thinking on your part. They always have "stories" up to wazoo but seldom to they have good evidence that it actually works, and often they can't explain it on a way that makes sense. There is a virtual industry out there preying upon horse people with expensive gimmicks. Everyone hopes that some device will make Nellie turn into Bozo. Lots of myth and lore in the horse world. Kudos to you! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| The Ultra Oz is a GREAT piece of equipment. I have a lot of clients using them with great success. Hagard and other vets have also used them. I have a few videos on my website that explain more about themhttp://www.brandenburgequinetherapy.com/shop/UltrOZ/
Edited by Troy Brandenburg 2014-08-28 5:38 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-28 5:34 PM
The Ultra Oz is a GREAT piece of equipment. I have a lot of clients using them with great success. Hagard and other vets have also used them. I have a few videos on my website that explain more about themhttp://www.brandenburgequinetherapy.com/shop/UltrOZ/
Serious question here, Troy. Can you provide any links to any studies that have been conducted? I'm talking scientific studies. I still would be very reluctant to recommend that someone spend $1200 on this without some good evidence, besides testimonials, that it actually works. We aren't talking about magnets here. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Hmmm Magnets ?? I guess you must think us all country hicks compared to you. The Quacks you talk about who made this machine is called Cornell University. Sorry but i don't know to many who would call them quacks other then you. The machine is being used in a few vet clinics like Hargard and Rood& Riddle to name 2. As for case studies http://www.brandenburgequinetherapy.com/ultroz-therapeutic-ultrasou... . Then there are some reviews http://www.brandenburgequinetherapy.com/ultroz-elite-system-rave-re... . I am sorry but if a few people on here would do some research they might find that NOT all things are crap, There are a lot of things out side Barrel horse world that DOES work. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| By the way from your past history i expect you to disbelieve all this. Thank you. | |
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 I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I sure wouldn't hesitate to rent this system for a month in a heartbeat if I had a use for it. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Are you talking about ultrasound, or lasers? Ultrasound therapy has been around for a long time. All I am asking is for some scientific validation that your laser device actually works. I might even consider renting one for a month or two myself, Troy.
You have a lot of great things on your website. I just am very skeptical of laser therapy the way it is promoted. You are selling it, so obviously you would react to my posts the way you have. I understand this.
Links to advertisements are no substitute for peer-reviewed scientific literature. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| You would love the ease of it. Every one i have rented to has bought one, its so easy to use. Put the wrap on, its the button and walk away. I have a lot of success stories and if any knows me Iam not just saying this because i sell them. I sell them because they work.
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Well you had read the anything about machine then you knows a ultrasound machine. Why would you comment if you did not read what it is?
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| UltrOZ™ Elite is a wearable ultrasonic therapy system for the treatment of common musculoskeletal conditions in horses. Low intensity ultrasound therapy [LITUS] was originally developed as a bone fracture repair therapy for non-union fractures. Scientists and clinicians found that longer duration, low intensity therapy helped to increase the natural healing rate of the body. LITUS therapies later expanded into soft tissue healing applications like tendon and ligament healing. Ultrasound therapy has been used by Veterinarians for decades to treat common soft tissue and bone fracture injuries. Issues treated using ultrasound include: | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Troy, I have to ask...Have you used it on yourself for the injuries you sustained in your car accident? I would love to try this on my osteoarthritis knee. It would be cheaper to buy this then to get a series of orthovisc injected into my knee. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy I don't have a problem with ultrasound. The OP is who I responded to and she asked about lasers. You do sell laser equipment don't you? Since the OP referenced lasers, I commented on this as a therapy for pain. Like I said I don't have a problem with ultrasound at all. It's the use of lasers that is pretty controversial, as far as I know. In other words, the jury is still out.
Maybe it does work...maybe it doesn't. If I have $6000 laying around to spend, I can think of a lot more things. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| I have not only because i don't want to interfere with what the PT people have been doing. Like most things they have a plan and i trying to follow what they have outlined. They have created a machine that is the same and this is approved by the FDA. HOTBEARlvr i am sorry if i offended you but a lot of people follow what you say and its clear you did not read what the machine was to start with and then you did not read the studies that you asked for, A lot of people might might not find the machine they need because you did not take the time to read. You off all people tell every to study what they talk about. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| If you read her Title its Ultra OZ and i do sell Lasers and herbs as well as a lot of stuff that you don't believe in but a lot of other people do.
Edited by Troy Brandenburg 2014-08-28 9:34 PM
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Sure sounds interesting.
When you rent one do that apply that towards a new one? | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy, I wasn't interested in the "brand name" of the device, rather, I was commenting on the use of "LLLT" or "low level laser therapy" for pain. I didn't know the "Ultra-Oz" was being sold be you. There are all kinds of brand names for the same devices. It's the actual technology that I am interested, not the brand name. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| That is no excuse for not reading the studies that you asked for. If you had read Any of the studies i posted you would have read ultrasound. You have not said once why you did not read what you asked for?? And i am just repeating what you have said MANY times. I think a few people will be disappointed in you for not doing YOUR research. I know i will be very wary of you claim from now one and from the messages i am getting i am not the only one. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I don't know how I can make myself any more clear, Troy. I've already explained myself. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| No you did not, Why did you not read the studies you asked for ? Thats the big question. Every one says ultrasound. You either did not think i had them, or was wasting my time. I am sorry but you give people Hell every time for not reading and doing there research and here it is you did not read the Full story from the OP but even worse, you did not read the studies that YOU asked for. Wasted my time. Thank you very much. Any way i think we have proved that this machine does work and is not a piece of fad. We also proved that you should do your own research because some people just talk and do always know what they are talking about. Night all. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Oh yes I did Troy. Sorry if I touched a nerve. You are selling very expensive products, and that includes LLLT devices, which was my original focus because the OP asked about lasers. You posted links to your web site.
After all, you are selling $6000 lasers, aren't you? Posting a link to YOUR site is a far cry different than posting references to actual respected, scientific, peer reviewed literature. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | The other thing is I clicked on your links, and I did not see any scientific studies. I saw endorsements and advertisements. A couple of the sites on your link I couldn't see because of a web filter. One was some holistic journal. Regardless, those links were regarding ultrasound, which I said I don't have a problem with. It's lasers. Am calling into question. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| The nerve was that you trashing a product that you did not even know what it was. The Heading was ULTRA OZ. You just assumed some thing that you did not fully go it to. You asked for studies and i am sorry if the quickest way to get the studies was from my web site. I have them on there so that people fully understand about the machine. I am having to revamp the full site with more information about all the products for people to learn. Again proves that you did not even bother to read any thing. Yes i do sell lasers and a lot of other equipment, some expensive and some cheap. Heck i even sell used equipment so people can afford what they want. I believe in every thing i use and sell, i could make a lot of money selling other so called therapy equipment but i don't, because i donut believe in them. You may not like Laser therapy but there are a lot of educated people that do. believe. A lot of vet use them so is that mean they are wrong? The point being here you have set your self up as a knowledgeable person and a lot of people believe what you say. Today you have not even taken the time to read The full post for the OP but you also wasted my time by not even reading the studies that you asked for because they were linked to my site. I know wonder what other products you have trashed because you did not want to read any thing other then what you write. For a educated man you fell short today. i learnt a long time ago. when some things that know it all and don't think they need to read and learn more with a open mind, well maybe that person is not that smart. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Like i said earlier , you would find something wrong with any thing that does not go with what you think. Go look at the case studies from rood&riddle. Its ok to admit that you was wrong and you commented before you looked at what they was talking about. But thats a waste of my time waiting. I think there will be a look of people questioning what you say now and thats a shame. Good night all, this is going no where. The equipment is good and some one was wrong in his comments because he had no idea of the equipment he comment about. Hope this helps the OP with her questions, | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-28 11:17 PM
Like i said earlier , you would find something wrong with any thing that does not go with what you think. Go look at the case studies from rood&riddle. Its ok to admit that you was wrong and you commented before you looked at what they was talking about. But thats a waste of my time waiting. I think there will be a look of people questioning what you say now and thats a shame. Good night all, this is going no where. The equipment is good and some one was wrong in his comments because he had no idea of the equipment he comment about. Hope this helps the OP with her questions,
Case studies are not scientific evidence. You are right....the world is full of a lot of highly educated people who profit from quackery. I didn't see any scientific evidence on those sites, but for the umpteenth time, I don't have a problem with ultrasound.
Do you want to discuss LLLT therapy? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Do you eery notice how people change the subject when its not making them look good? What is the point of discussing anything. You are set in your ways and someone will prove that you are wrong and you would not believe. The point here is the OP ask about Ultra OZ, you did not read the full post and just went about saying it was crap. You wanted studies, I sent them to you but you did not read. After ll this when you find out that you are not getting your way you decide to go back and make excuses. if you had read from the start instead of mouthing off you would know what everyone else knew. Now its have been found out that you don't read what people post you want to change the subject. You are a way smarter man and more educated then me in so many ways but i have one thing going for me that you either don't have or forgotten. Always think with a open mind and be able to accept that there is more going on then we will ever know and MAYBE we don't know it all and can be wrong. By the way , Thanks for reminding me why i stopped reading Barrel horse world. This should be a place to discuss things not see things trusted for NO reason.
Edited by Troy Brandenburg 2014-08-29 12:16 AM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Sorry Troy. I should have known Ultra Oz is an ultrasound device and not a laser device.
As I said, your web page really didn't have scientific data anyway. Not the sites I was able to view anyway. In other words, if I were a skeptic of ultrasound and your UltraOz (which I'm not) nothing there would have been compelling anyway.
I am a skeptic of your $6000 "laser shower" device. It looks good, and sounds like it works, if you believe the ad and usual propaganda, but I need to see something that impresses me of it's efficacy before I sink that much into it. Endorsements and "case studies" won't do it for me. As far as I'm concerned it's a quack device until proven otherwise.
Sorry if I really touched a nerve. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Here's something to chew on when considering a "cold laser" or LLLT device for $6K:
Cold Laser Therapy
Posted on May 26, 2010 by skeptvet
A popular therapy among chiropractors who treat pets is low level laser or “cold laser” treatment. It is an impressive bit of showmanship to pull out a complex-looking device and with a serious expression wave a beam of light over a patient, but the evidence to suggest it is anything more than showmanship is weak at best.
An example of the enthusiasm, and irrationality, of some proponents of this treatment can be found at the joint web site of the International Association of Veterinary Chiropractors and American Animal Adjusting Association.
The article on cold laser begins by anticipating and defying criticism:
Invariably a new technique or process is often fraught with counter-intentions that are usually seen throughout the field of study and across the board. The relative benefit of such a process or new technology is directly proportional to the amount of consternation, doubt, and criticism that, it in fact receives….This author has seldom seen a technology as valuable and inspiring, as this particular technology appears to be. Suffice to say you are witnessing the emergence of a completely new age in healing and certainly a total paradigm shift in veterinary health care.
So the existence and strength of opposition to the technique should be seen as evidence of its benefits? Interesting logic. And if I haven’t mentioned it before, the use of the term “paradigm shift,” not to mention “completely new age,” are not only examples of ludicrous hyperbole, they are highly correlated with quackery, if not pathognomonic for it.
The underlying theory presented to explain the benefits of cold laser treatment is a bit of pseudoscience known as the Biophoton or Ultraweak Photon Emission idea. It is possible to detect very low energy photons emitted from living cells as the result of biochemical reactions. The significance, if any, of this for health and disease has never been demonstrated, which makes it a gap in real scientific knowledge into which all kinds of mystical nonsense can be stuffed, much like the pseudoscientific misuse of quantum physics. The veterinary chiropractic site advertising this treatment explains it this way:
It has been proven that cells communicate through coherent light. When a sperm and ovum fertilize, they immediately give off coherent light at precisely 632.8 nanometers.
Cells in the living matrix also communicate throughout the total body living things via a coherent light, and that communication is done instantaneously through the living matrix to direct all aspects of healing, growth, regulation of metabolism, and general cell survival.
To be able to dial into this communication process via an artificial methodology such as a cold laser is the ability to emulate the exact methodology is that the cells themselves use to heal themselves and also to grow, to change, and to survive. It has been said, “it is the way God talks to all cells, tissues, organisms and creatures.”
None of this is based on any sound science. It is merely vitalist, mystical speculation, which does not, of course, limit in any way the certainty and authority with which the fantasy is presented as scientific fact. This is yet another example of how chiropractic is fundamentally a pseudoscience based on imaginary “energy” and fake abnormalities like the “subluxation.” As such, it is open to any similar sounding nonsense, and any benefits it might have in practice are accidental and unrelated to the irrational and bogus underlying principles.
Like most pseudoscientific therapies, cold laser not only addresses the one true underlying cause of disease, it can also be applied in almost any way. Directly over diseased organs, in the general area of a symptom, even on acupuncture points associated with the meridians connected to the problem area. And since the proponents here are chiropractors, we should not be surprised to find that the use of lasers “is particularly effective in rehabilitating the effects of vertebral subluxation complex and their effects on the myofascial tissues affected by these subluxations.”
What else do these folks claim cold laser can do?
These protocols are designed to enhance a particular disease therapy or can be used in a general sense as the sole treatment of choice.
If a practitioner were to master only these protocols and use only these, he would be still far more effective than any of his colleagues to date using methods other than cold laser.
They list a number of general protocols first:
Arthritis/Spondylitis/Myelopathy Protocol
Neuropathy Protocol
Immune Protocol
Lymphatic Drainage Protocol
Pre and Post Surgical Protocol
Liver Detox Protocol
Hormone Balance Protocol
Acute Pain-Injury Protocol
Sympathetic-Parasympathetic (S-PS) Balance Protocol
Acupuncture Meridian Balance Protocol
Infection Protocol
Allergy Protocol (Specific or General)
If one prefers a slightly more specific indication for the treatment, they can also provide protocols for laser treatment of:
Feline-
Abscesses
Chronic Inflammatory Bowel Disease (CIBD)
Feline Hyperthyroidism,
Feline Skin-Spinal Reflex, Feline Neurodermatitis, Endocrine Alopecia, Milliary Eczema
Kidney Disease, FUS, FLUTD
Megacolon
Pyorrhea
Canine-
Canine Hip Dysplasia Syndrome
Canine Idiopathic Epilepsy
Chronic Inflammatory Bowel Disease
Cushing’s Disease
Canine Wobbler’s Disease
Hypothyroid
Progressive Degenerative Myelopathy
Urinary Incontinence
Equine-
Arthritis, (General or Focal) Sore Back etc.
Bleeder (exercise induced naso-pharyngeal hemorrhage) Elevated Blood Pressure
Bronchitis, Bronchopneumonia, Pneumonitis
Bruising, Subcutaneous Hemorrhage, Wound Reorganization
Bursitis
Colic (all kinds), Bloat
Bone Injury, (splint bone and acute boney injuries)
Dermatosis, Urticaria, Hives, Rain Scald
Ear and Guttoral Pouch Disease
Edema, (general, hypostatic, ventral, extremities)
Equine Protozoal Myelitis (EPM)(see also Neurotropic Herpes)
Facial Nerve Paralysis, Lip Paralysis
Fear, Terrors, Miss-emotion, Training Problems
Hepatitis, Hepatosis
Hock Distension
Heart and Heart Related Conditions
Focal or General Inflammation
Lacerations
Lack of Focus in Training
Laryngeal Hemiplegia
Kidney Disease
Malignant Hyperthermia
Navicular Disease and Laminitis
Neurotropic Herpes (West Nile Virus?)
Proud Flesh, Excessive Granulation Tissue
Sepsis, (General or Focal)
So what is the truth behind all of these claims? Despite the nonsense of the underlying theory, is there any evidence cold laser therapy might have real benefits?
The answer for the vast majority of conditions is “No!” For a few conditions, the answer is more appropriately a “Maybe, but probably not much.”
Extensive reviews of the human literature have been done by the Cochrane Collaboration and the insurance companies Aetna and Cigna. These have found mixed but generally poor evidence for benefit as follows. A review of the veterinary literature on the subject can be found in Ramey 2004.
1. Cochrane Review for rheumatoid arthritis: 6 studies with a total of 660 people were examined. There was limited evidence for a small benefit, with an improvement in self-reported pain of 1.1 points on a 10 point scale. The studies were short term and methodologically weak and inconsistent, and the conclusion was, as usual for Cochrane reviews, that no firm conclusion can be drawn and more research is needed.
2. Cochrane Review for osteoarthritis: This examined 6 studies, three of which found no effect and three of which found a benefit. The studies were methodologically weak and inconsistent and more research was recommended. The review has since been withdrawn pending analysis of additional evidence and correction of some statistical errors.
3. Cochrane Review for nonspecific low back pain: 7 studies of 384 people. Three studies (168 people) showed very small improvement in pain compared with fake laser. Three studies (102 people) found no difference. All the studies used different treatment protocols and short-term evaluation, so no firm conclusions could be made.
4. Cochrane Review for tuberculosis: One poor quality study from India was available and did not meet even basic methodological standards, so no conclusion could be drawn.
5. CIGNA Review: References 1-36
A. Musculoskeletal Conditions: A number of studies and reviews in addition to the Cochran Reviews were examined. Generally, they showed no effect from most treatments for most measures but small benefits for a few measures in some trials. Overall, the evidence was weak and of poor quality, and it suggested some small benefit for discomfort and range of motion might be possible.
B. Wound Healing: Several systematic reviews were discussed, none of which showed convincing evidence of benefits for wound healing.
C. Oral Mucositis: Two small studies were reviewed, one of which showed a benefit to laser therapy and the other of which did not.
D. Other Medical Conditions: Reviews of laser use for temperomandibular joint disease and acute and chronic Achilles tendinitis found no clear evidence of benefit.
Summary: Low-level laser therapy (LLLT) has been proposed for a wide variety of uses, including wound healing, tuberculosis, and musculoskeletal conditions such as osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, fibromyalgia and carpal tunnel syndrome. There is insufficient evidence in the published, peer-reviewed scientific literature to demonstrate that LLLT is effective for these conditions or other medical conditions.
6. Aetna Review: References 37-81 (duplicates with CIGNA deleted)
” Although the results from large, uncontrolled, open trials of low-energy lasers in inducing wound healing have shown benefit, controlled trials have shown little or no benefit. The analgesic effects of low-energy lasers have been most intensely studied in rheumatoid arthritis. Recent well-designed, controlled studies have found no benefit from low energy lasers in relieving pain in rheumatoid arthritis or other musculoskeletal conditions. Furthermore, although positive effects were found in some earlier studies, it was not clear that the pain relief achieved was large enough to have either clinical significance or to replace conventional therapies.”
Published reviews indicate a lack of evidence for effectiveness for the following conditions:
chronic wounds, arthritis, tuberculosis, tinnitus, pain, smoking cessation, epicondylitis, Achilles tendinitis, plantar heel pain, back pain, and carpal tunnel syndrome.
Some evidence of benefit was found for the following conditions:
Raynaud’s phenomenon, pain following endodontic procedures, palpation sensitivity and passive extension in patients with shoulder pain (but not other measures), swelling following dental extraction when used in combination with steroids, tennis elbow pain in combination with plyometric exercise
Most of these studies were small and had methodological weaknesses, an most of their authors conclded that the treatment was promising but more research was needed to conclusively demonstrate a benefit.
7. Ramey 2004: References 82-100
Some studies have found evidence of improved wound healing in diabetic mice, dairy cattle, and laboratory rats. Other studies in rats and rabbits find small but clinically insignificant effects, and several studies have found no evidence of any effect on wounds in rats, guinea pigs, pigs, beagle dogs, and horses. A couple of poor quality studies of tendon and ligament injuries in horses have had conflicting results, one showing benefit and the other not. Other unblinded or uncontrolled studies in horses have suggested benefit for a variety of conditions. “Laser acupuncture” has been examined in uncontrolled and unblinded studies in horses, with the expected claims of benefit. Overall, there is weak evidence to suggest possible benefit in wound healing (though this conflicts with the results of higher quality studies in humans), and many claims made based on studies so poorly designed as to be no different from mere anecdotes. There is no good quality clinical research on which to base firm conclusions, or to support the dramatic claims of laser therapy proponents.
Overall, then, the theoretical foundations for low power laser therapy range from questionable to completely nonsensical pseudoscience. The in vitro research does suggest some real effects on living cells, but it does not indicate that such effects would be achievable or beneficial in actual patients. The human clinical research is extensive but of generally poor quality with no consistency to the laser treatment methods investigated, and it provides only very weak evidence of any clinically meaningful effects. The veterinary research is even more limited and of poor quality, ad it to is mixed with little convincing demonstration of real clinical benefits. All of this suggests an appropriate stance towards this therapy would be neutral to somewhat pessimistic, though certainly better quality research could identify some meaningful clinical benefits. The evidence does not support, and in some cases directly contradicts the claims made by the chiropratic organization website and much of the marketing materials on cold laser therapy veterinarians receive.
References-
1. Arora H, Pai KM, Maiya A, Vidyasagar MS, Rajeev A. Efficacy of He-Ne Laser in the prevention and treatment of radiotherapy-induced oral mucositis in oral cancer patients. Oral Surg Oral Med Oral Pathol Oral Radiol Endod. 2008 Feb;105(2):180-6.
2. Bingol U, Altan L, Yurtkuran M. Low-power laser treatment for shoulder pain. Photomed Laser Surg. 2005 Oct;23(5):459-64.
3. Bjordal JM, Lopes-Martins RA, Joensen J, Couppe C, Ljunggren AE, Stergioulas A, Johnson MI. A systematic review with procedural assessments and meta-analysis of low level laser therapy in lateral elbow tendinopathy (tennis elbow). BMC Musculoskelet Disord. 2008 May 29;9:75.
4. Bjordal JM, Lopes-Martins RA, Iversen VV. A randomised, placebo controlled trial of low level laser therapy for activated Achilles tendinitis with microdialysis measurement of peritendinous prostaglandin E2 concentrations. Br J Sports Med. 2006 Jan;40(1):76-80.
5. Bjordal JM, Couppe C, Chow RT, Tuner J, Ljunggren EA. A systematic review of low level laser therapy with location-specific doses for pain from chronic joint disorders. Aust J Physiother. 2003;49(2):107-16.
6. Bjordal JM, Johnson MI, Lopes-Martins RA, Bogen B, Chow R, Ljunggren AE. Short-term efficacy of physical interventions in osteoarthritic knee pain. A systematic review and meta-analysis of randomised placebo-controlled trials. BMC Musculoskelet Disord. 2007 Jun 22;8:51.
7. Brosseau L, Gam A, Harman K, Morin M, Robinson VA, Shea BJ, et al. Low level laser therapy (Classes I, II and III) for treating osteoarthritis (Cochrane Review). In: The Cochrane Library, Issue 3, 2004.
8. Brosseau L, Robinson V, Wells G, Debie R, Gam A, Harman K, et al. Low level laser therapy (Classes I, II and III) for treating rheumatoid arthritis. Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2005 Oct 19;(4):CD002049.
9. Brosseau L, Wells G, Marchand S, Gaboury I, Stokes B, Morin M, et al. Randomized controlled trial on low level laser therapy (LLLT) in the treatment of osteoarthritis (OA) of the hand. Lasers Surg Med. 2005
Mar;36(3):210-9.
10. California Technology Assessment Forum (CTAF). Low-energy laser therapy for the treatment of carpal tunnel syndrome. Technology Assessment. San Francisco, CA: CTAF; February 15, 2006. Accessed
June 7, 2009. Available at URL address: http://ctaf.org/content/general/detail/499
11. Chou R, Huffman LH; American Pain Society; American College of Physicians. Nonpharmacologic
therapies for acute and chronic low back pain: a review of the evidence for an American Pain Society/American College of Physicians clinical practice guideline. Ann Intern Med. 2007 Oct 2;147(7):492-504.
12. Chou R, Qaseem A, Snow V, Casey D, Cross JT Jr, Shekelle P, Owens DK; Clinical Efficacy Assessment Subcommittee of the American College of Physicians; American College of Physicians; American Pain Society Low Back Pain Guidelines Panel. Diagnosis and treatment of low back pain: a joint clinical practice guideline from the American College of Physicians and the American Pain Society. Ann Intern Med. 2007 Oct 2;147(7):478-91.
13. Crossley K, Bennell K, Green S, McConnell J. A systematic review of physical interventions for patellofemoral pain syndrome. Clin J Sport Med. 2001 Apr;11(2):103-10.
14. Cullum N, Nelson EA, Flemming K, Sheldon T. Systematic reviews of wound care management: (5) beds; (6) compression; (7) laser therapy, therapeutic ultrasound, electrotherapy and electromagnetic therapy. Health Technol Assess. 2001;5(9):1-221. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Again it comes down to the fact No one was talking about a a laser .If you had taken the time to read the full post from OP and any of the studies that you asked for(even with out dates the never talk about Laser therapy) You sould have know that it was ultra sound. Instead you get on and say it was invited by quacks and no good. Face the fact that you all you did is start telling people facts that you had no idea about and now you got caught you want to chance the subject.You have given people so much grief about not knowing what they are talking about and when you get caught you you want to change subject. Sorry I will call your BS. Just admit that you started trashing a product with out even knowing what it was. Trust me i am not the only one thinking this might not be the first time you have done it.Please stay with the subject the OP posted about ,the ULTR OZ ultrasound machine. I am not sure what i sell has to do with this either. Yes i sell lasers ,so do other people on the site. I also sell a lot of other inexpensive tools that do great work. I don't see you getting on here asking for studies of some other so called Therapy equipment that is talk about all the time .
Edited by Troy Brandenburg 2014-08-29 6:59 AM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | The OP said "apparently it's a low frequency laser", and that was what caught my attention more than the UltOz.
The C&P I posted from SkeptVet contains the sort of thing I was looking for, especially references, of which I only posted about half.
Why aren't you commenting on the remarks on lasers.....the kind you are selling? Do you agree with him? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Because this was never about a laser, This was about the ULTRA OZ . The heading was Ultra OZ and she said apparently a low frequency laser. The work Apparently should have you thinking that maybe it could be something other then laser.
You trusted it with out even knowing any thing about it and now you want to change the subject. Hey i am just doing what you tell people every day, Read the whole thing and know what you are speaking about BEFORE you trash a subject.
Edited by Troy Brandenburg 2014-08-29 7:29 AM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-29 7:26 AM
Because this was never about a laser, This was about the ULTRA OZ . The heading was Ultra OZ and she said apparently a low frequency laser. The work Apparently should have you thinking that maybe it could be something other then laser.
You trusted it with out even knowing any thing about it and now you want to change the subject. Hey i am just doing what you tell people every day, Read the whole thing and know what you are speaking about BEFORE you trash a subject.
To repeat....the OP said "apparently it is a low frequency laser", and that was what caught my eye. When I went to your web page I found your "laser shower" device. To repeat myself, I don't have a problem with the use of ultrasound, because I know it has legitimate usefulness. Where I DO have a problem is when someone tries selling expensive remedies and gimmicks that are of very questionable utility. If I can get even one or two people to look at these devices carefully before spending thousands of dollars on junk, then it's worth it to me.
We ALL use things or even ingest things that are of questionable value. For instance, I THINK my PHT blankets make my horses feel better, and I have a few theories as to how they may work, but I am not going to sit here and mislead people into thinking they have necessarily been "scientifically proven". There's a big difference between a $300 magnetic blanket and a $6000 machine. I take 500mg of Turmeric a day......the evidence that it does any good is still evolving, but it's inexpensive, and I take it anyway.
I like BOT products as well, but I am not going to lie to people and tell them they have been definitely been shown to do this or that.
I don't have a dog in this fight....there is no profit motive in my case. In fact, if anything, it costs me. You, Troy, profit immensely from the sale of these things. Like I said, I think you sell a lot of good things, but not all of it is as advertised, in my opinion. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-29 7:26 AM Because this was never about a laser, This was about the ULTRA OZ . The heading was Ultra OZ and she said apparently a low frequency laser. The work Apparently should have you thinking that maybe it could be something other then laser. You trusted it with out even knowing any thing about it and now you want to change the subject. Hey i am just doing what you tell people every day, Read the whole thing and know what you are speaking about BEFORE you trash a subject.
The heading was the product name, but the OP said it was a laser therapy. Sooooo.... that's what he went from. That's what I assumed as well- that she was asking about cold laser therapy (off the top of reading).
I see some published studies done on ultrasound therapy, but only case studies for equine subjects, not a full study or clinical trial. Do you know of any published studies regarding equine use? By published, I mean published in a peer-reviewed and respected scholarly journal.
As a side note, I have seen many people use products and certainly "believe" they work. That is sometimes not truly the case. As humans, our observations are ALWAYS biased. Scientific studies are so important because the remove the bias of the observer and provide measurable, objective evidence that a medication, therapy, or protocol is working, and at what percentage success that a given protocol has.
I wouldn't take someone asking for a true study as any sort of insult. I work in a heathcare based career as well, and if we offer a new test to patients, we must go through an exnstensive validation process to prove any new laboratory test will work properly and give accurate results. A lot of people tend to extend that thinking into our lives to see if our purchases, especially the more expensive ones, are worth the money. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| So now you are saying i am misleading people with some of the things i sell?? Here is all i will say. if YOU had read the Full post tittle included instead of assuming you know it all we may not have been having this discussion. You asked for some studies and as i was at a airport the easiest way to give them was from my phone off my website. Because i mislead people and sell stuff that don't work you decided not to even read it or you would have seen that you was wrong about the therapy machine she asked about. Then when you realize that you may be wrong you go back and look but instead of saying ok i was WRONG you want to change the subject. Here is some facts about me, Yes i do sell the equipment that i use. Yes i do have some expensive products but i also have products that are less expensive and work just as good as the products you use. I have talked a lot of people out of buying products because i don't think they need them, so that makes me a bad sales person. You are fixed on one product that YOU don't like so you want to throw that in my face. For every thing that people say are good you will find some one say they are bad. its just a matter of who's paying or how some one feels about that subject. Some times its hard to know whats right. Yes people believe in products and think they get results, I see that a lot in the barrel racing world. But this is fact here, you mouthed off about a product that you had NO idea about. You have been found out and now you want to change the subject. You are the one always telling people to do there research yet here you was caught out. You are a man that a lot of people listen to on here, and if you trash some thing people will not even think about that product. For that reason you should have looked into it more before you spoke. Maybe the next time you give some one grief about something you might think twice. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | barrelracr131 - 2014-08-29 7:51 AM
Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-29 7:26 AM Because this was never about a laser, This was about the ULTRA OZ . The heading was Ultra OZ and she said apparently a low frequency laser. The work Apparently should have you thinking that maybe it could be something other then laser. You trusted it with out even knowing any thing about it and now you want to change the subject. Hey i am just doing what you tell people every day, Read the whole thing and know what you are speaking about BEFORE you trash a subject.
The heading was the product name, but the OP said it was a laser therapy. Sooooo.... that's what he went from. That's what I assumed as well- that she was asking about cold laser therapy (off the top of reading).
I see some published studies done on ultrasound therapy, but only case studies for equine subjects, not a full study or clinical trial. Do you know of any published studies regarding equine use? By published, I mean published in a peer-reviewed and respected scholarly journal.
As a side note, I have seen many people use products and certainly "believe" they work. That is sometimes not truly the case. As humans, our observations are ALWAYS biased. Scientific studies are so important because the remove the bias of the observer and provide measurable, objective evidence that a medication, therapy, or protocol is working, and at what percentage success that a given protocol has.
I wouldn't take someone asking for a true study as any sort of insult. I work in a heathcare based career as well, and if we offer a new test to patients, we must go through an exnstensive validation process to prove any new laboratory test will work properly and give accurate results. A lot of people tend to extend that thinking into our lives to see if our purchases, especially the more expensive ones, are worth the money.
I doubt you will get an answer, Alison. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| Really ?? man you have got so arrogant. Allison i am heading to PT and when i get home i will you a message. This all comes down to people speaking out with out knowing all the facts. Its s shame but there is to much bashing on this page rather then go throughout the facts first. I understand he just went with laser therapy but the OP did say APPARENTLY laser therapy . so that means she was not sure. Every one on here has seen the person bash people for not having all the facts. I guess he does not like it coming back at him. Shame if he had only take a minute to look before he spoke.
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-29 8:10 AM So now you are saying i am misleading people with some of the things i sell?? Here is all i will say. if YOU had read the Full post tittle included instead of assuming you know it all we may not have been having this discussion. You asked for some studies and as i was at a airport the easiest way to give them was from my phone off my website. Because i mislead people and sell stuff that don't work you decided not to even read it or you would have seen that you was wrong about the therapy machine she asked about. Then when you realize that you may be wrong you go back and look but instead of saying ok i was WRONG you want to change the subject. Here is some facts about me, Yes i do sell the equipment that i use. Yes i do have some expensive products but i also have products that are less expensive and work just as good as the products you use. I have talked a lot of people out of buying products because i don't think they need them, so that makes me a bad sales person. You are fixed on one product that YOU don't like so you want to throw that in my face. For every thing that people say are good you will find some one say they are bad. its just a matter of who's paying or how some one feels about that subject. Some times its hard to know whats right. Yes people believe in products and think they get results, I see that a lot in the barrel racing world. But this is fact here, you mouthed off about a product that you had NO idea about. You have been found out and now you want to change the subject. You are the one always telling people to do there research yet here you was caught out. You are a man that a lot of people listen to on here, and if you trash some thing people will not even think about that product. For that reason you should have looked into it more before you spoke. Maybe the next time you give some one grief about something you might think twice.
Yes, and he apologized... or did you not read all of that?
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | So you don't want to talk about the $6K flashlight to are trying to sell to people? Go ahead and call me names, Troy. I think Alison pointed out how you yourself missed a few things. You are no different than a lot of naturopaths......call them on their quackery and they get madder than a junkyard dog.
That's what your laser shower is.....quackery. Buyer beware! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 667
| EEEKKK.. Sorry to stir this up. I did "mis-state" in the OP. One of my customers is trying the Ultr-Oz. The low frequency ultrasound?? Lasers were brought up in the "sales pitch" (confusing to me obviously)
I think that I will just let her make the decision to buy or not buy. I will not be purchasing. ((Just for the record..)) Lasers/Ultrasounds whichever it may be. LOL | |
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  Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
Location: Displaced Iowegian | This has certainly been a VERY interesting thread.......If I were the seller or involved in the promotion of this product, I would be MORE concerned with explaining the product and it's uses..... rather than conversing with one person......that WAS the OP's question wasn't it???? | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| OK, I am doing this on my phone as i sit here at PT. Allison there are some studies been published in the vet journals. As i am on the phone at the moment its hard for me to get hold of when i get them. I will forward them to you when i get them. The point of this whole post was asking about the Ultra Oz machine. This person trashed the machine with out even knowing what it done. He asked for information that i supplied.I understand that he thought it was Laser therapy but even when it was pointed out it was Ultra sound therapy he wanted to divert the conversation to laser therapy. This was to cover up the FACT that he trashed a product that he had no idea about. All he had to do was admit that he was wrong and should not say any thing about a product that he did not know about. The Op asked about a $1200 ultrasound not a laser. I was not on here selling ANY thing just making sure the right information was given, so i don't think i need to defend any thing i am selling on my site unless i get here and try to sell it. As far as Quackery, i don't have a problem with that because this person called Cornell University and haggard quacks so i am in good company. All i have pointed out is a lot of people listen to what he says so he should be more careful what he says and get the facts. he does not like to be wrong. I hope this post is all deleted because its got away from the OPs question. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16571
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Troy Brandenburg - 2014-08-29 11:01 AM OK, I am doing this on my phone as i sit here at PT. Allison there are some studies been published in the vet journals. As i am on the phone at the moment its hard for me to get hold of when i get them. I will forward them to you when i get them. The point of this whole post was asking about the Ultra Oz machine. This person trashed the machine with out even knowing what it done. He asked for information that i supplied.I understand that he thought it was Laser therapy but even when it was pointed out it was Ultra sound therapy he wanted to divert the conversation to laser therapy. This was to cover up the FACT that he trashed a product that he had no idea about. All he had to do was admit that he was wrong and should not say any thing about a product that he did not know about. The Op asked about a $1200 ultrasound not a laser. I was not on here selling ANY thing just making sure the right information was given, so i don't think i need to defend any thing i am selling on my site unless i get here and try to sell it. As far as Quackery, i don't have a problem with that because this person called Cornell University and haggard quacks so i am in good company. All i have pointed out is a lot of people listen to what he says so he should be more careful what he says and get the facts. he does not like to be wrong. I hope this post is all deleted because its got away from the OPs question.
That was MY point exactly.....trying to divert YOU.... BACK to the original question....however, I see that you are more intent on kabitzing about HBL......I guess we will never actually see the answer to her question......carry on with your nonsense....... | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Again, for the umpteenth time, I don't have a problem with ultrasound, and didn't mean to trash it. I explained myself over and over, but Troy wants to perseverate on the same thing. The reason he does is because of my views on naturopathy and it goes back a long time. Since the OP mentioned lasers, that's what caught my attention....hence my comments on the "laser shower" device. I think it is quackery and Troy as side stepped that part of this discussion. Troy sells a lot of good products, but I also think a lot of his naturipathic products are not a good investment, so, as a consumer and critic with NO vested interest and a science background, I speak out on such matters often. Troy, on the other hand, DOES have a vested, financial interest...hence his absence of objectivity. A lot of people fall prey to slogans, clever words, and gimmicks when it comes to Naturipathy....if they say something like "get your natural detoxifier here and support your horse's immune system to optimize his performance". That just grabs attention....and it works, all too often, in my opinion. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 620
Location: Bixby, Ok | Wow Troy this is really over the top. HOt Bear apologized and explained himself and you won't let it go. I think the real issue is that you don't understand what peer reviewed scientific study actually consists of. The links on your page are nothing more than testimonials. They do come from respected sources but they are still not scientific studies! A scientific study is a blind study meaning there are horses treated with the new therapy and others treated with old methods or with no treatment and the results such as length of healing time and degree of return to soundness are measured by proven scientific formulas by individuals who are not privy to which horses received which treatment until after it is published. This ensures that there is no bias in the results. I can find no such studies on the lasers Hot Bear was orginally discussing. There are studies on ultrasound and as Hot Bear stated there is evidence to suggest that ultrasound has a place in medicine and treatment. I think you need to step back and cool off and realize this was never an attack on you personally. I don't believe in all of the hype of certain things on the market either but I don't take those that do as a personal attack on me. JMHO | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Probably the most important development in today's clinical research is the double-blind, placebo control study. It virtually eliminates bias. Pharmaceutical research relies on this all the time. Imagine, if you will, what healthcare would be like if all we relied on was anecdote and testimonial? Healthcare would be Russian roulette, basically. The naturopaths say they do not study their remedies using the same scientific method because such study would drive the cost of their herbs and potients up. That's a convenient excuse, and I think it's a travesty. The truth of the matter is why should they? They have a sweet deal going. They don't have to be controlled or regulated by the FDA. They don't have to adhere to the same quality control standards. All they need to do is get some testimonials from people with a degree from a respected university, or perhaps some athletes or celebrities. I mean, after all, if Kim Kardashian says it works, or if some rodeo competitor says it works, surely it must, right? Never mind the fact that they get paid to say what they say. The problem is if a person sells a device that is unproven, and you attempt to debunk the myths about that device, you are goring their Ox and you can expect a viscious response.
I've had my own Ox gored a time or two as a surgeon. Here's a classic example. During my training and for the first 6-7 years of my practice, the "gold standard" for treating gallbladder disease was the standard open cholecystectomy. Here's what it entailed: you make an incision anywhere from 5 inches to 10 inches long in the right upper quadrant of the abdomen, just below the rib cage. You cut and burn through all the muscle layers of the abdominal wall. You insert devices to pry the abdomen open as wide as possible so you can see the gallbladder. The gallbladder is grasped and removed from the undersurface of the liver, either with cautery or scissors. Often times the "bed" of the gallbladder beneath the liver oozes a lot so you literally burn that surface until the bleeding stops, sometimes leaving behind mountains or charred dead flesh. Fortunately the human body has amazing healing abilities, so usually there is no consequence. Often times you leave a plastic drain to drain the serum, blood, and fluid from the space formerly occupied by the gallbladder. Because this is such a traumatic operation, the bowel is temporarily paralyzed....a so-called ileus. This meant you had to have an NG tube through your nose into your stomach, or else you will retch and vomit with a painful fresh incision....not fun. After a day or two, perhaps longer, the NG tube and the drain are removed. If you are lucky, you are allowed to drink liquids by the 2nd or 3rd day, and maybe you will go home in 5-7 days....maybe. The operation was actually very safe and serious complications were pretty uncommon.
In the late 80s they started doing these laparoscopically and this was widely criticised, initially in the surgical community. "Why do they have to go through all this to do an operation that is already proven and easy?" was the usual retort. Within 2-3 years it started catching on like wildfire. Instead of a big barbaric incision, you had 4 tiny stab holes. There was no drain or no NG tube. People went home the next day, and now it is very common for them to go home the same day. They eat regular food almost right away. Complications are fewer. Mortality is less. The operation takes less time. Are there exceptions and complications, certainly, but the for the vast majority this was just a bump in the road. Within a couple days people were back at work.
Now, it is the "gold standard". In fact, within a few short years it became the gold standard. How is this possible? Scientific analysis and peer reviewed studies in reputable journals. Testimonials and endorsements had no place. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
| I walked away from this because it was going no were but i felt that hot bear was attacking me because i pointed out that he was wrong in trashing a product that he had NO idea about. Second he kept wanting to bring the laser up to lead people away from the fact that he was wrong and was talking about something with out doing the full research, a fact he does not have a problem telling every one else to do. In fact this is a classic case of a so call educated man who people believing in misleading people. Yes research can be read in many different ways and NONE of us know all the facts. Some things work for some people and not for all. Every day there is research being done to prove and disprove things we all believe in. It is a fact that there are products and therapies that do work with very little research because people have not put the money into it. But forget research and get back to the facts in this case. I pointed out that he should have at lest looked at the whole picture before he trashed the product. I told him that people listen to what he says and FOR THAT REASON he should know all the facts first. I understand he only read Laser therapy but is that a Excuse to trade something? I feel he was attacking me because i pointed out that he spoke out of turn and it made him look bad. It should not matter what i sell on my site, Yes i sell lasers, Magnetic equipment even herbs. All things he does not believe in so that means they don't work. He might not believe them but there are a LOT of people that do, Vets and other research people use them every day, so does that mean they are Quackers to? Not the thing that really got me was when he said i had a vested interest in this because i sell equipment. Yes i do but if he even knew ANY thing about me he would know i am a bad sales person. I have save people lots of money and time by either advising them that they don't need this equipment or telling them what they can use for a less expensive price. Oh and i don't always have the equipment i advise them about. I have even give equipment to people to use because they had no money and the horse needed it. It is a known fact that i will do the best for the horse not for me. I don't feel he was apologizing for trashing the product by keep referring to my laser. This will be the very last time i will every go near barrel horse world because its becoming a lot of bullies. I know thats why some people don't come on her. This site could have been a great place to share information but what a shame. Go ahead people Flame away but if you think its ok then thats your right. I finished on here and if you have a problem with me feel free to call. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Troy, I have said that I think you sell some good products. You can just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. I've already explained myself. As has been pointed out by someone else, you don't really understand very much when it comes to knowing what constitutes scientific research and peer reviewed scientific literature.
You refuse to offer any defense of my statement that your $6000 laser shower device is unproven quackery -basically buyer beware. I posted my evidence in support of my position.....you posted nothing. All you did was try to deflect what has been my focus right from the start. | |
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Expert
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | readytorodeo - 2014-12-27 7:32 AM Bump
Why did you bump this arguement? LMAO! | |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| Trying to get info on it from people who have one | |
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Ultr-oz???? Anyone?