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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Was he armed? Is this another version of "Hands up....don't shoot?" | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| One FB account said the protesters were not threatening but I have not read anything yet that I consider a reputable source. The article did not detail what led to guns bring fired. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | He was not armed. Whether or not he was complying depends on who you talk to | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | It's pretty odd that I haven't seen any detailed account of what happened from a reputable source. FB is loaded with "eyewitness accounts" of what sounds like an execution. | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bear - 2016-01-27 5:43 PM It's pretty odd that I haven't seen any detailed account of what happened from a reputable source. FB is loaded with "eyewitness accounts" of what sounds like an execution.
why is that odd?
You can rest assured that the Powers that be have no interest in you knowing what's going on out there.
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Oh the reputable sources will come out with the story.......once everything has been done to be certain everyone is on the same page. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Darla posted this just a while ago on FB..
Dennis Michael LynchLike PageBUNDY SHOT Just got off the phone with a Bundy brother. Here is the story he shared. Aamon Bundy, his brother Ryan, and a few protestors went to meet with the ...FBI. They were pulled over and told to get out of the car. They did so with their hands up. AZ Rancher Lavoy Finicum informed FBI and local authorities he did not have a gun. Something happened, not sure what, but whatever it was shots were fired at Finicum. He is dead. Ryan Bundy was shot as well. Aamon Bundy says they were peaceful and there was no reason for the gun fire. Apparently, ABC NEWS has it all on video. I will be covering this story tomorrow on UNFILTERED and will keep you up to date throughout the day. I HAVE THE EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH MEL BUNDY TONIGHT ON UNFILTERED 9pm ET, NewsmaxTV | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here ya go...naturally, I've been following this closely as much of what they're fighting affects me & mine (it affects every American, however, most don't realize it). I've been ready at any time to change my mind if the facts demand I do so. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wA18O_6dgw&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
There's also some videos going around with the 'eye witnesses' mentioned above and I at first thought they were somewhat valid, even though they were far away from the actual killing, with more research I realize that those 2 have been accused prior to this of being fbi informants. Who knows? I doubt it's over. There's no doubt they were ambushed. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Check this one out...you can get a real feel for who the haters are and there's links in the comments. Sheriff Ward must be real proud of his followers...just know that you will not find the truth in mainstream media and they've arrested the one independent that was covering it. https://www.facebook.com/Harney-County-Sheriffs-Office-1053081328076653/?fref=nf | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's a link that's a little more 'compressed'! I want to say that we need to be careful about forming an opinion without facts, afterall, an opinion is only a matter of if you 'feel or think ' that green is prettier than blue. And even if you don't agree with the tactics or if you despise these men for whatever reason, please look at the 'rule of law'...as far as I can tell they have not broken one single Constitutional Law. Out west we have a slew of 'agents' with various bureaucratic agencies who think they're 'lawmakers', note that they don't even work for an agency that has one elected official! They're appointed by the executive (presidential) branch...they come with an agenda and it's all extremely corrupt. http://21stcenturywire.com/2016/01/27/eyewitness-says-feds-ambushed-bundys-100-shots-fired-at-passengers-lavoy-finicum-killed-with-hands-up/ | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 8:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
While I'm reserving judgement just yet until I have more info and don't really trust either side to tell the complete unvarnished truth because both sides have an agenda... Your post sounds much like something a good Loyalist would have said back in the day. There absolutely has been a miscarriage of justice in the Hammond case, and while I don't agree with the tactics being used to call attention to it, our govt has got to be reined in somehow. At least they're trying. | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | This is the other story from the FBI and they said video will be released so I am by no way saying they were in the right but lots of things circulating.. http://www.ktvz.com/news/oregon-occupiers-details-on-traffic-stop/37677078?platform=hootsuite | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
But allowing Illegals to rape and torture and into our country illegally is ok and when it involves Blacks and they riot its ok.. from your liberals perspective anyway.. smh | |
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 9:00 AM 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
But allowing Illegals to rape and torture and into our country illegally is ok and when it involves Blacks and they riot its ok.. from your liberals perspective anyway.. smh
I wouldn't expect people with a narrrow minded, myopic view of the world to understand.
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 7:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
What part of "we the people" do you not understand? The govt is supposed to serve us through elected leadership, not rule us. | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 9:09 AM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 9:00 AM 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
But allowing Illegals to rape and torture and into our country illegally is ok and when it involves Blacks and they riot its ok.. from your liberals perspective anyway.. smh I wouldn't expect people with a narrrow minded, myopic view of the world to understand.
Me either, maybe you should get your head out of the sand..lol because its been there for YEARS. | |
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Meanest Teacher!!!
Posts: 8552
Location: sunny california | funny the right wing people I know are all educated and the democrats generally are not, but some did major in underwater basket weaving... | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | I'd really encourage everyone to take the time to listen to Greg Walden address the House on the situation up there. Please research just a bit what they've done to the Hammonds. People have been trying to go thru legal channels and NOTHING is getting done. The BLM is a very scary agency that is totally out of control. There are many stories like the Hammonds - it's WRONG! It makes me ill that the government is treating citizens this way.
Check out the youtube channel LaVoy had - there is no doubt in my mind they murdered him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4ocLdWE90&sns=fb
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! |
You are right that there's a lot of different stories circulating. A ton of videos too, including Ammon speaking with the FBI, it's quite interesting and telling(it's not a youtube, the only place I can find it is on the Bundy fb right now): https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/?fref=ts
Lavoy saying just the day before that the attitudes from the fed had changed: http://www.westernjournalism.com/watch-the-haunting-words-oregon-protester-said-the-day-before-he-was-killed/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=WesternJournalism&utm_content=2016-01-27&utm_campaign=manualpost This one also makes you think:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYsIrtbtWE And this one! http://katu.com/news/your-voice-your-vote/your-voice-your-vote-the-showdown-at-the-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge
The truth is, the fed have been desperate to avoid another Free Waco, especially because the Oathkeepers have more than 100k ready to do what they must...it would/will start a civil war and nobody wants that...so, let's think about it, the fed 'invited' Ammon and group to the meeting they were on there way to, then ambushed them...there's no doubt about that. It's possible that it happened exactly how the witness with Lavoy said, they were stopped, Ryan Payne got out of the pickup to say they were going to where the sheriff was, he was shot at, Lavoy took off (I can't tell whether she said Payne was arrested at the first stop?) cops started shooting at the vehicle, pursuit followed, Lavoy ran into a snow bank while going around the road block further up the road, jumped out of truck with his hands in the air yelling, "Just shoot me!" and they did...in the face, then 5 or 6 times more after he was on the ground, then started shooting at pickup, occupants got on floor board, Ryan Bundy was shot in the shoulder...they stopped shooting when they realized that the 'murder plot' backfired as the protesters weren't shooting back...there was no 'shoot out' as originally reported. The reaction the fed expected and counted on didn't happen...they screwed up. Now they are tweeking their story. They've kicked out ALL media, have a no-fly zone set up and if you look at sheriff ward you can see the truth written all over his face. This is what it looks like to me...so far.
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | kwanatha - 2016-01-28 7:27 AM funny the right wing people I know are all educated and the democrats generally are not, but some did major in underwater basket weaving...
Lmao...I needed that! And it's true! Can I steal it? lol | |
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Veteran
Posts: 291
| The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | river runner - 2016-01-28 8:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
^^EXACTLY!!!
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BHW's Simon Cowell
Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | So funny reading 1dsoon's posts. If anyone thinks that 1Dsoon is what she or he or it says they are, they might want to rethink that. I guess they need someone to stir the pot. Got to have that person every 4 years on here. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! |
(funnykwanatha.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- funnykwanatha.jpg (88KB - 159 downloads)
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BHW's Simon Cowell
Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 7:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
You are so full of crap. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | MS2011 - 2016-01-28 8:42 AM I'd really encourage everyone to take the time to listen to Greg Walden address the House on the situation up there. Please research just a bit what they've done to the Hammonds. People have been trying to go thru legal channels and NOTHING is getting done. The BLM is a very scary agency that is totally out of control. There are many stories like the Hammonds - it's WRONG! It makes me ill that the government is treating citizens this way. Check out the youtube channel LaVoy had - there is no doubt in my mind they murdered him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4ocLdWE90&sns=fb
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | river runner - 2016-01-28 8:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
We don't deal with the BLM, but we are very familiar with the EPA and their underhanded crap. #ditchtherule | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:07 AM So funny reading 1dsoon's posts. If anyone thinks that 1Dsoon is what she or he or it says they are, they might want to rethink that. I guess they need someone to stir the pot. Got to have that person every 4 years on here.
We're being played? Say it ain't so! LOL I wondered if POE's Law was at play, but considering Finney is totally serious, I wasn't sure. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:07 AM So funny reading 1dsoon's posts. If anyone thinks that 1Dsoon is what she or he or it says they are, they might want to rethink that. I guess they need someone to stir the pot. Got to have that person every 4 years on here.
Couldn't have said it better....... | |
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Veteran
Posts: 280
| river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM
The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
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Hugs to You
Posts: 7546
Location: In The Land of Cotton | Bear - 2016-01-28 10:40 AM I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
I also have not paid too much attention to it, due to no computer at home to read, (other then phone). And, reading on the phone is hard. I would need to start at the beginning of the burning of the BLM land, etc.
However, I am interested to see the police version of their video of what happened. And, if the man was gunned down with his hands up in the arm as stated by some. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 291
| Bear - 2016-01-28 9:40 AM
I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
When I was in grade school we were held in our local grocery store because AIM members and law enforcement were having a chase/shoot out that kept going up main street. One of my classmates dad was one of the AIM members, I remember thinking, "wow, *****'s dad must be mad at the cops today"! | |
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Hawty & Nawty
Posts: 20424
| I'm amazed at how little press this is getting. I'm amazed that Obama weighed in on the Oscar debate but hasn't said a thing about this needless killing. | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Here's a good summary of the Hammond case - http://www.tsln.com/news/18837869-113/where-theres-smoke Where there's smoke Expand Photo Photo courtesy Hammond family | Two members of the Hammond family, pictured left to right Earlyna, Steven, Susan, Dwight, Claire, Corbin and Emery, reported to prison Monday for setting fires to federal grazing lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond were originally convicted three years ago for setting fires in 2001 and 2006, according to the Associated Press, but after serving their original sentences, were sent back to prison because of a ruling in an appeals court. Their case sparked the latest outcry against government-held public lands, and a group of militia protesters took over a plot of land at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., about 300 miles from Portland. The story could be the plot for a western-style soap opera. The latest scene involved two ranchers being sentenced to five years in federal prison for inadvertantly burning about 140 acres of Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) rangeland in two separate fires. That is an area big enough to feed about three cow-calf pairs for a year in that neck of the woods. “I call it ‘as the sagebrush burns,’” said Erin Maupin, a former BLM range technician and watershed specialist and rancher in the area, of the long history involving the Bureau of Land Management (BLM ), special interest groups and the cattle ranchers on the Steens Mountain of Oregon. Dwight Hammond, 73 and son Steven Hamond, 46, admitted in a 2012 court case to lighting two different fires. Both fires started on Hammonds’ private property. The Harney County ranchers are paying the BLM $400,000 for the costs of fighting fires the BLM claims they set. “The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area,” said a Department of Justice news release. “The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightening storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt to save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by the BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons,” continued the DOJ release. The two men were sentenced to prison in 2012. Steven served eleven months and Dwight three. The men were charged with nine counts, including conspiracy, using aerial surveillance of sites they intended to burn, and burned, attempting to destroy vehicles and other property with fire, and more. Dwight and Steve were found guilty of two counts – the two fires they readily admitted to starting on their own property. In order to draw the original court case to a close, the two men, in a plea deal, agreed that they would not appeal the 2012 sentence. The Department of Justice news release said arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. Judge Michael Hogan, however, did not give the two men the minimum sentence called for under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, saying it would have been “grossly disproportionate” to the crime. He added that a longer sentence would not meet any idea he has of justice and that he didn’t believe congress intended that act to be applied in cases like the Hammond one. A longer sentence than the few months he gave them would “shock his conscience” he said. The Department of Justice appealed for a full sentence. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to a review of the case and District Chief Judge Ann Aiken went ahead with a full sentence – five years in federal prison for both men, minus time already spent. The fires The first fire, in 2001, was a planned burn on Hammonds’ own property to reduce juniper trees that have become invasive in that part of the country. That fire burned outside the Hammonds’ private property line and took in 138 acres of unfenced BLM land before the Hammonds got it put out. No BLM firefighters were needed to help extinguish the fire and no fences were damaged. “They called and got permission to light the fire,” Dwight’s wife, Susan, said, adding that was customary for ranchers conducting range management burns – a common practice in the area. “We usually called the interagency fire outfit – a main dispatch – to be sure someone wasn’t in the way or that weather wouldn’t be a problem.” Susan said her son Steven was told that the BLM was conducting a burn of their own somewhere in the region the same day, and that they believed there would be no problem with the Hammonds going ahead with their planned fire. The court transcript includes a recording from that phone conversation. In cross-examination of a prosecution witness, the court transcript also includes an admission from Mr. Ward, a range conservationist, that the 2001 fire improved the rangeland conditions on the BLM property. Maupin, who resigned from the BLM in 1999, said that collaborative burns between private ranchers and the BLM had become popular in the late 1990s because local university extension researchers were recommending it as a means to manage invasive juniper that steal water from grass and other cover. “Juniper encroachment had become an issue on the forefront and was starting to come to a head. We were trying to figure out how to deal with it on a large scale,” said Maupin, whose family neighbored the Hammonds for a couple of years. “In 1999, the BLM started to try to do large scale burn projects. We started to be successful on the Steens Mountain especially when we started to do it on a large watershed scale as opposed to trying to follow property lines.” Because private and federal land is intermingled, collaborative burns were much more effective than individual burns that would cover a smaller area, Maupin said. Maupin said prescribed burns to manage juniper were common in the late 1990s and early 2000s, best done late in the fall when the days are cooler. Prescribed burns on federal land in their area have all but stopped due to pressure from special interest groups, Maupin said. As a result, wildfires now burn much hotter due to a “ladder” of material on the ground – grass, brush and trees. “The fires now burn really hot and they sterilize the ground. Then you have a weed patch that comes back.” Maupin said planned burning in cooler weather like the Hammonds chose to do improves the quality of the forage, and makes for better sage grouse habitat by removing juniper trees that suck up water and house raptors – a sage grouse predator. Susan said the second fire, in 2006, was a backfire started by Steven to protect their property from lightning fires. “There was fire all around them that was going to burn our house and all of our trees and everything. The opportunity to set a back-fire was there and it was very successful. It saved a bunch of land from burning,” she remembers. The BLM asserts that one acre of federal land was burned by the Hammonds’ backfire and Susan says determining which fire burned which land is “a joke” because fire burned from every direction. Neighbor Ruthie Danielson also remembers that evening and agrees. “Lightning strikes were everywhere, fires were going off,” she said. Charges The Hammonds were charged with nine counts in the original court case. The BLM accused the Hammonds of several 2006 fires, including a large one known as the Granddad, which blazed about 46,000 acres. According to the 2012 sentencing document, the jury found the men innocent or were deadlocked on all but two counts – the two fires the men admitted to starting – burning a total of about 140 acres. Judge Hogen dismissed testimony from a disgruntled grandson who testified that the 2001 fire endangered his life and that of local hunters, saying the boy was very young and referencing a feud that may have influenced the testimony. “Well, the damage was juniper trees and sagebrush, and there might have been a hundred dollars,” he added. More to the story? During her tenure as a full time BLM employee from 1997-1999, Maupin recalls other fires accidentally spilling over onto BLM land, but only the Hammonds have been charged, arrested and sentenced, she said. Ranchers might be burning invasive species or maybe weeds in the ditch. “They would call and the BLM would go and help put it out and it was not a big deal.” On the flip side, Maupin remembers numerous times that BLM-lit fires jumped to private land. Neighbors lost significant numbers of cattle in more than one BLM fire that escaped intended containment lines and quickly swallowed up large amounts of private land. To her knowledge, no ranchers have been compensated for lost livestock or other loss of property such as fences. Gary Miller, who ranches near Frenchglen, about 35 miles from the Hammonds’ hometown, said that in 2012, the BLM lit numerous backfires that ended up burning his private land, BLM permit and killing about 65 cows. A YouTube video named BLM Working at Burning Frenchglen-July 10, 2012 shows “back burn” fires allegedly lit by BLM personnel that are upwind of the main fire, including around Gary Miller’s corrals. The fire that appeared ready to die down several times, eventually burned around 160,000 acres, Miller said. Bill Wilber, a Harney County rancher, said five lightening strikes on July 13, 2014, merged to create a fire on Bartlett Mountain. The fire flew through his private ground, burned a BLM allotment and killed 39 cows and calves. While the fire could have been contained and stopped, BLM restrictions prevent local firefighting efforts like building a fireline, so only after taking in 397,000 acres did the fire finally stop when it came up against a series of roads. The issue isn’t limited to Oregon. In 2013, two South Dakota prescribed burns started by the U.S. Forest Service--over the objections of area landowners-- blew out of control, burning thousands of acres of federal and private land. Ranchers that suffered property damage from the Pautre fire in Perkins County, South Dakota filed extensive tort claims in accordance with federal requirements, but will receive no compensation because USDA found the U.S. Forest Service not responsible for that fire. Why the Hammonds? “The story is like an onion, you just keep peeling back the layers,” Maupin said. In an effort to stave off what they feared was a pending Clinton/Babbitt monument designation in 2000, a group of ranchers on the scenic Steens Mountain worked with Oregon Representative Greg Walden, a Republican, to draft and enact the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act that would prevent such a deed. The ranchers agreed to work with special interest “environmental” groups like the aggressive Oregon Natural Desert Association and others to protect the higher-than 10,000-foot peak. A number of ranchers at the top of the mountain traded their BLM permits and private property for land on the valley floor, allowing Congress to create a 170,000 acre wilderness in 2000, with almost 100,000 acres being “cow-free.” “The last holdouts on that cow-free wilderness are the Hammonds,” said Maupin. Though some still have BLM grazing permits, the Hammonds are the last private landowners in the area. “It’s become more and more obvious over the years that the BLM and the wildlife refuge want that ranch. It would tie in with what they have,” said Rusty Inglis, an area rancher and retired U.S. Forest Service employee. The Hammonds also lost their ability to water cattle on one BLM permit when refuge personnel drained a watering hole that the Hammonds had always used. Maupin said the government scientists and resource managers working “on the ground” supported the Hammonds’ use of the water but that the high level bureaucrats backed special interest anti-grazing groups. “There is a huge disconnect between employees on the ground and the decision-makers.” She said that divide builds tension between ranchers and federal agencies. In the Hammonds’ plea agreement in the 2012 trial, the BLM obtained the first right of refusal should the family have to sell their private land, Maupin added. The Maupins themselves had a small lease that also bordered the “cow-free wilderness” and the Oregon Natural Desert Association was “relentless in their pursuit to have us off, in order to expand the cow-free wilderness,” Maupin said. The group would criticize the ranchers’ water usage, causing them to pipe water to their cattle, which in turn instigated more complaints from the group. Eventually the Maupins sold their permit and moved. But the Hammonds remained. Steve and Dwight Hammond will turn themselves in for their prison sentences in early January, Susan said. The family has sold cattle. Their BLM permit has not been renewed for two years, leaving them unable to use a large amount of intermingled private land. The family is in the “last challenge” to re-obtain their grazing permit. “I don’t know what happens after that,” Susan said. “We have done everything according to their rules and regulations and there is no reason that they should not give us back our permit. We don’t understand how a federal land management agency can ‘take’ personal private property (checkerboarded with BLM land ) in this manner. “We’ve been fighting it for five years. We don’t want to destroy people as we are fighting it even if it is a BLM employee,” she said, “They live in our community and they have families. We respect that.” The situation could get even more ugly but “it’s not going to be our fault,” she said. “The Hammond family is not arsonists. They are number one, top notch. They know their land management,” said Inglis, who spent 34 years with the USFS and now ranches about 40 miles from the Hammonds and is unique in the area, operating strictly on private land. Inglis, president of his county Farm Bureau and a member of the Oregon Cattlemen’s Association said both groups are working to help gain media attention for the Hammond case. The state Farm Bureau group gathered signatures online for a petition to show widespread support for the family. “Enough is enough,” Inglis said. “We are not in Nazi Germany. We are in the United States of America.” The five-year prison sentence sets a worrisome precedent for area ranchers, Maupin said. “Now the sky is the limit. It doesn’t have to be fire, it can be trespass with cattle.” Another precedent – one for fire that burns beyond expectations – should apply to everyone, including federal employees, Maupin points out. The People Maupin talked about the Hammonds helping her and her husband with ranch work like hauling cattle and lending portable panels, not expecting repayment. Wilber recalled them hauling 4-H calves to the fair for neighbors and Inglis said Dwight once offered to lend him money because he thought he needed help. “Here’s a guy with $400,000 in fines and legal bills I can’t imagine, worrying about my welfare,” said Inglis. “I think that’s the biggest point of all of this – how can you prosecute people as terrorists when they aren’t a terrorist?” Property rights attorney Karen Budd-Falen from Cheyenne, Wyoming, agrees. “What totally amazes me is what these guys did – they burned 140 acres. If you compare that to the EPA spill in Colorado, it amazes me that nothing will happen to those EPA employees. You have cities down there with no drinking water. The Hammonds didn’t do anything like that,” Budd-Falen said. “It’s going to get worse before it gets better,” said Maupin. The BLM deferred all questions to the Department of Justice, who shared their official news release but did not respond to emailed questions as of print time. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM
river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM
The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/
People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire year before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
Edited by cyount2009 2016-01-28 11:05 AM
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BHW's Simon Cowell
Location: The Saudia Arabia of Wind Energy, Western Oklahoma | cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 10:56 AM
cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government.
I am not saying you don't but the private land leases and government land leases are two total different beasts. | |
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Industrial Srength Barrel Racer
Posts: 7263
| 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 7:48 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media.
I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
If YOU are DUMB enough to believe ANYTHING the government has to say, I would venture to say that YOU are the "nut job." A tiny bit of common sense goes a long ways. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:56 AM cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds. We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government.
It's so much deeper than even that. For quite some time the collusion between the fed (blm/forest service) and the environmental groups has been beyond imagination. The absolute corruptness is sickening, federal judges who are besties with ceo's of these non-profit organizations or who has a family member who works for them or the fed, a sheriff who's an ex blm agent, blm agents who are trained snipers, ex cia, secret service...the threats and fines. It's a land grab that is full of deceipt, smoke and mirrors. It's not just about cattle, it's about the states, the locals, having no control over any of our resources and being forced to deal with bureuacrats that have an agenda. It's about how we're denied state sovereignty...equal footing. It's about our Constitutional Rights. All of us. If we have none...neither do you.
There's enough info out there that can be used to justify any opinion a person may choose to have! Just remember that opinions and facts are two different things...that leaves us delving into the what transpired to create this mess...who has something to hide? How did it get this far? Who's being the most transparent? Pete Santilli (arrested independent media) posted all the evidence from the trials of the Hammonds, including what wasn't 'allowed' by the judge....it's floating around out there, I don't have time to search for it. Happy hunting! | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 11:19 AM ksjackofalltrades - 2016-01-28 9:56 AM cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 10:54 AM wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them. Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/ People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds. We rent from private land owners that have restrictions on how many we can graze. That is not only used by the government. It's so much deeper than even that.
For quite some time the collusion between the fed (blm/forest service) and the environmental groups has been beyond imagination. The absolute corruptness is sickening, federal judges who are besties with ceo's of these non-profit organizations or who has a family member who works for them or the fed, a sheriff who's an ex blm agent, blm agents who are trained snipers, ex cia, secret service...the threats and fines. It's a land grab that is full of deceipt, smoke and mirrors. It's not just about cattle, it's about the states, the locals, having no control over any of our resources and being forced to deal with bureuacrats that have an agenda.
It's about how we're denied state sovereignty...equal footing.
It's about our Constitutional Rights. All of us. If we have none...neither do you.
There's enough info out there that can be used to justify any opinion a person may choose to have!
Just remember that opinions and facts are two different things...that leaves us delving into the what transpired to create this mess...who has something to hide? How did it get this far? Who's being the most transparent?
Pete Santilli (arrested independent media) posted all the evidence from the trials of the Hammonds, including what wasn't 'allowed' by the judge....it's floating around out there, I don't have time to search for it.
Happy hunting!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Those federal prosecutors and all involved with this for 140 acres are likely going to Hell, in my opinion. But there the fire will be twice as hot and there wont be any putting it out. They should think about that before laying their heads down on the pillow tonight.
Our Government is out of control, from the city councils on up to the tippity top....but Trump is going to fix all of this and make America great again, right? Fat chance. People on all sides will believe whatever they want to, by the pushers of promise.
Edited by Tdove 2016-01-28 11:31 AM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | MS2011 - 2016-01-28 9:31 AM Here's a good summary of the Hammond case -
http://www.tsln.com/news/18837869-113/where-theres-smoke
Where there's smoke
Expand Photo Photo courtesy Hammond family |
Two members of the Hammond family, pictured left to right Earlyna, Steven, Susan, Dwight, Claire, Corbin and Emery, reported to prison Monday for setting fires to federal grazing lands. Dwight and Steven Hammond were originally convicted three years ago for setting fires in 2001 and 2006, according to the Associated Press, but after serving their original sentences, were sent back to prison because of a ruling in an appeals court. Their case sparked the latest outcry against government-held public lands, and a group of militia protesters took over a plot of land at Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., about 300 miles from Portland. The story could be the plot for a western-style soap opera. The latest scene involved two ranchers being sentenced to five years in federal prison for inadvertantly burning about 140 acres of Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) rangeland in two separate fires. That is an area big enough to feed about three cow-calf pairs for a year in that neck of the woods. “I call it ‘as the sagebrush burns,’” said Erin Maupin, a former BLM range technician and watershed specialist and rancher in the area, of the long history involving the Bureau of Land Management (BLM ), special interest groups and the cattle ranchers on the Steens Mountain of Oregon. Dwight Hammond, 73 and son Steven Hamond, 46, admitted in a 2012 court case to lighting two different fires. Both fires started on Hammonds’ private property. The Harney County ranchers are paying the BLM $400,000 for the costs of fighting fires the BLM claims they set.
“The jury convicted both of the Hammonds of using fire to destroy federal property for a 2001 arson known as the Hardie-Hammond Fire, located in the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area,” said a Department of Justice news release. “The jury also convicted Steven Hammond of using fire to destroy federal property regarding a 2006 arson known as the Krumbo Butte Fire located in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and Steen Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Area. An August lightening storm started numerous fires and a burn ban was in effect while BLM firefighters fought those fires. Despite the ban, without permission or notification to BLM, Steven Hammond started several “back fires” in an attempt to save the ranch’s winter feed. The fires burned onto public land and were seen by the BLM firefighters camped nearby. The firefighters took steps to ensure their safety and reported the arsons,” continued the DOJ release.
The two men were sentenced to prison in 2012. Steven served eleven months and Dwight three. The men were charged with nine counts, including conspiracy, using aerial surveillance of sites they intended to burn, and burned, attempting to destroy vehicles and other property with fire, and more. Dwight and Steve were found guilty of two counts – the two fires they readily admitted to starting on their own property. In order to draw the original court case to a close, the two men, in a plea deal, agreed that they would not appeal the 2012 sentence. The Department of Justice news release said arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. Judge Michael Hogan, however, did not give the two men the minimum sentence called for under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, saying it would have been “grossly disproportionate” to the crime. He added that a longer sentence would not meet any idea he has of justice and that he didn’t believe congress intended that act to be applied in cases like the Hammond one. A longer sentence than the few months he gave them would “shock his conscience” he said. The Department of Justice appealed for a full sentence. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals agreed to a review of the case and District Chief Judge Ann Aiken went ahead with a full sentence – five years in federal prison for both men, minus time already spent. The fires The first fire, in 2001, was a planned burn on Hammonds’ own property to reduce juniper trees that have become invasive in that part of the country. That fire burned outside the Hammonds’ private property line and took in 138 acres of unfenced BLM land before the Hammonds got it put out. No BLM firefighters were needed to help extinguish the fire and no fences were damaged. “They called and got permission to light the fire,” Dwight’s wife, Susan, said, adding that was customary for ranchers conducting range management burns – a common practice in the area. “We usually called the interagency fire outfit – a main dispatch – to be sure someone wasn’t in the way or that weather wouldn’t be a problem.” Susan said her son Steven was told that the BLM was conducting a burn of their own somewhere in the region the same day, and that they believed there would be no problem with the Hammonds going ahead with their planned fire. The court transcript includes a recording from that phone conversation. In cross-examination of a prosecution witness, the court transcript also includes an admission from Mr. Ward, a range conservationist, that the 2001 fire improved the rangeland conditions on the BLM property. Maupin, who resigned from the BLM in 1999, said that collaborative burns between private ranchers and the BLM had become popular in the late 1990s because local university extension researchers were recommending it as a means to manage invasive juniper that steal water from grass and other cover.
“Juniper encroachment had become an issue on the forefront and was starting to come to a head. We were trying to figure out how to deal with it on a large scale,” said Maupin, whose family neighbored the Hammonds for a couple of years. “In 1999, the BLM started to try to do large scale burn projects. We started to be successful on the Steens Mountain especially when we started to do it on a large watershed scale as opposed to trying to follow property lines.” Because private and federal land is intermingled, collaborative burns were much more effective than individual burns that would cover a smaller area, Maupin said. Maupin said prescribed burns to manage juniper were common in the late 1990s and early 2000s, best done late in the fall when the days are cooler.
Prescribed burns on federal land in their area have all but stopped due to pressure from special interest groups, Maupin said. As a result, wildfires now burn much hotter due to a “ladder” of material on the ground – grass, brush and trees. “The fires now burn really hot and they sterilize the ground. Then you have a weed patch that comes back.” Maupin said planned burning in cooler weather like the Hammonds chose to do improves the quality of the forage, and makes for better sage grouse habitat by removing juniper trees that suck up water and house raptors – a sage grouse predator.
Susan said the second fire, in 2006, was a backfire started by Steven to protect their property from lightning fires. “There was fire all around them that was going to burn our house and all of our trees and everything. The opportunity to set a back-fire was there and it was very successful. It saved a bunch of land from burning,” she remembers. The BLM asserts that one acre of federal land was burned by the Hammonds’ backfire and Susan says determining which fire burned which land is “a joke” because fire burned from every direction. Neighbor Ruthie Danielson also remembers that evening and agrees. “Lightning strikes were everywhere, fires were going off,” she said. Charges The Hammonds were charged with nine counts in the original court case. The BLM accused the Hammonds of several 2006 fires, including a large one known as the Granddad, which blazed about 46,000 acres. According to the 2012 sentencing document, the jury found the men innocent or were deadlocked on all but two counts – the two fires the men admitted to starting – burning a total of about 140 acres. Judge Hogen dismissed testimony from a disgruntled grandson who testified that the 2001 fire endangered his life and that of local hunters, saying the boy was very young and referencing a feud that may have influenced the testimony. “Well, the damage was juniper trees and sagebrush, and there might have been a hundred dollars,” he added.
More to the story?
During her tenure as a full time BLM employee from 1997-1999, Maupin recalls other fires accidentally spilling over onto BLM land, but only the Hammonds have been charged, arrested and sentenced, she said. Ranchers might be burning invasive species or maybe weeds in the ditch. “They would call and the BLM would go and help put it out and it was not a big deal.”
On the flip side, Maupin remembers numerous times that BLM-lit fires jumped to private land. Neighbors lost significant numbers of cattle in more than one BLM fire that escaped intended containment lines and quickly swallowed up large amounts of private land. To her knowledge, no ranchers have been compensated for lost livestock or other loss of property such as fences.
Gary Miller, who ranches near Frenchglen, about 35 miles from the Hammonds’ hometown, said that in 2012, the BLM lit numerous backfires that ended up burning his private land, BLM permit and killing about 65 cows. A YouTube video named BLM Working at Burning Frenchglen-July 10, 2012 shows “back burn” fires allegedly lit by BLM personnel that are upwind of the main fire, including around Gary Miller’s corrals. The fire that appeared ready to die down several times, eventually burned around 160,000 acres, Miller said. Bill Wilber, a Harney County rancher, said five lightening strikes on July 13, 2014, merged to create a fire on Bartlett Mountain. The fire flew through his private ground, burned a BLM allotment and killed 39 cows and calves. While the fire could have been contained and stopped, BLM restrictions prevent local firefighting efforts like building a fireline, so only after taking in 397,000 acres did the fire finally stop when it came up against a series of roads.
The issue isn’t limited to Oregon. In 2013, two South Dakota prescribed burns started by the U.S. Forest Service--over the objections of area landowners-- blew out of control, burning thousands of acres of federal and private land. Ranchers that suffered property damage from the Pautre fire in Perkins County, South Dakota filed extensive tort claims in accordance with federal requirements, but will receive no compensation because USDA found the U.S. Forest Service not responsible for that fire.
Why the Hammonds?
“The story is like an onion, you just keep peeling back the layers,” Maupin said. In an effort to stave off what they feared was a pending Clinton/Babbitt monument designation in 2000, a group of ranchers on the scenic Steens Mountain worked with Oregon Representative Greg Walden, a Republican, to draft and enact the Steens Mountain Cooperative Management and Protection Act that would prevent such a deed. The ranchers agreed to work with special interest “environmental” groups like the aggressive Oregon Natural Desert Association and others to protect the higher-than 10,000-foot peak. A number of ranchers at the top of the mountain traded their BLM permits and private property for land on the valley floor, allowing Congress to create a 170,000 acre wilderness in 2000, with almost 100,000 acres being “cow-free.” “The last holdouts on that cow-free wilderness are the Hammonds,” said Maupin. Though some still have BLM grazing permits, the Hammonds are the last private landowners in the area. “It’s become more and more obvious over the years that the BLM and the wildlife refuge want that ranch. It would tie in with what they have,” said Rusty Inglis, an area rancher and retired U.S. Forest Service employee. The Hammonds also lost their ability to water cattle on one BLM permit when refuge personnel drained a watering hole that the Hammonds had always used. Maupin said the government scientists and resource managers working “on the ground” supported the Hammonds’ use of the water but that the high level bureaucrats backed special interest anti-grazing groups. “There is a huge disconnect between employees on the ground and the decision-makers.” She said that divide builds tension between ranchers and federal agencies. In the Hammonds’ plea agreement in the 2012 trial, the BLM obtained the first right of refusal should the family have to sell their private land, Maupin added.
The Maupins themselves had a small lease that also bordered the “cow-free wilderness” and the Oregon Natural Desert Association was “relentless in their pursuit to have us off, in order to expand the cow-free wilderness,” Maupin said. The group would criticize the ranchers’ water usage, causing them to pipe water to their cattle, which in turn instigated more complaints from the group.
Eventually the Maupins sold their permit and moved. But the Hammonds remained. Steve and Dwight Hammond will turn themselves in for their prison sentences in early January, Susan said.
The family has sold cattle. Their BLM permit has not been renewed for two years, leaving them unable to use a large amount of intermingled private land.
The family is in the “last challenge” to re-obtain their grazing permit. “I don’t know what happens after that,” Susan said. “We have done everything according to their rules and regulations and there is no reason that they should not give us back our permit. We don’t understand how a federal land management agency can ‘take’ personal private property (checkerboarded with BLM land ) in this manner.
“We’ve been fighting it for five years. We don’t want to destroy people as we are fighting it even if it is a BLM employee,” she said, “They live in our community and they have families. We respect that.” The situation could get even more ugly but “it’s not going to be our fault,” she said. “The Hammond family is not arsonists. They are number one, top notch. They know their land management,” said Inglis, who spent 34 years with the USFS and now ranches about 40 miles from the Hammonds and is unique in the area, operating strictly on private land. Inglis, president of his county Farm Bureau and a member of the Oregon Cattlemen’s Association said both groups are working to help gain media attention for the Hammond case. The state Farm Bureau group gathered signatures online for a petition to show widespread support for the family. “Enough is enough,” Inglis said. “We are not in Nazi Germany. We are in the United States of America.”
The five-year prison sentence sets a worrisome precedent for area ranchers, Maupin said. “Now the sky is the limit. It doesn’t have to be fire, it can be trespass with cattle.”
Another precedent – one for fire that burns beyond expectations – should apply to everyone, including federal employees, Maupin points out.
The People
Maupin talked about the Hammonds helping her and her husband with ranch work like hauling cattle and lending portable panels, not expecting repayment. Wilber recalled them hauling 4-H calves to the fair for neighbors and Inglis said Dwight once offered to lend him money because he thought he needed help. “Here’s a guy with $400,000 in fines and legal bills I can’t imagine, worrying about my welfare,” said Inglis. “I think that’s the biggest point of all of this – how can you prosecute people as terrorists when they aren’t a terrorist?” Property rights attorney Karen Budd-Falen from Cheyenne, Wyoming, agrees. “What totally amazes me is what these guys did – they burned 140 acres. If you compare that to the EPA spill in Colorado, it amazes me that nothing will happen to those EPA employees. You have cities down there with no drinking water. The Hammonds didn’t do anything like that,” Budd-Falen said. “It’s going to get worse before it gets better,” said Maupin.
The BLM deferred all questions to the Department of Justice, who shared their official news release but did not respond to emailed questions as of print time.
Note that the fed has 'first right of refusal' if the Hammonds sell their land. Also know that the Hammonds were threatened with a 'tough time in jail' if they publicly supported the protesters. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Copied from a fb page SO THE "CONSTITUTIONAL SHERIFF" WHO WAS SO OPEN TO MR BUNDY AND HIS GROUP AND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT A TOWN HALL MEETING WAITING ON BUNDY TO JOIN THEM IN GRANT COUNTY IS A LIAR HE SET THEM UP !!!! HOW CAN YOU BE AT A MEETING WAITING FOR THEMALITIA TO BE WELCOMED WHEN YOUR OUT ON THE SCENE WHILE THEY ARE BEING MURDERED AND SHOT..........................................................Grant county Sheriff Sheriff Glenn Palmer (left) carries a shotgun back to his patrol vehicle, which was serving as part of a roadblock. Highway 395 was blocked at Seneca between John Day and Burns by Oregon State police officers the evening of Tuesday, H
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-28 11:34 AM
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Attachments ---------------- sheriff palmer.jpg (31KB - 151 downloads)
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | The question that stands out in my mind is this: What transpired to cause the FEDS (BLM/FBI) to use deadly force on an unarmed group?
Also, I recommend reading "Storm Over Rangelands" in regards to researching the background to Western States Land Ownership vs. The Federal Government. Plus look into the background of The BLM and Federal Forest Service and see where they evolved from. Another item to research is The Federal Land Office and what their purpose was. The answers lie in this research and it is absolutely scary!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | It kind of sounds like that scene in Braveheart, with the council for peace....
It is VERY telling that this is hush hush except for non mainstream media. If this was another event with other players, more favorable to the agenda, it would be round the clock coverage with everyone trying to get the latest information on exactly what happened. But with this its, like.....just the facts.....we don't know anything at this time... and that is all that is said.
To me that is telling. I would like to know what really did happen, but we will probably never know and that does point the finger of shame at the Government. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Like Musikmaker keeps saying research the ties between the Feds (BLM/Forest Svc) and Environmental Groups. The ties are astounding!
And the corruption of these groups knows no bounds! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | foundation horse - 2016-01-28 10:34 AM The question that stands out in my mind is this: What transpired to cause the FEDS (BLM/FBI) to use deadly force on an unarmed group? Also, I recommend reading "Storm Over Rangelands" in regards to researching the background to Western States Land Ownership vs. The Federal Government. Plus look into the background of The BLM and Federal Forest Service and see where they evolved from. Another item to research is The Federal Land Office and what their purpose was. The answers lie in this research and it is absolutely scary!
Yes it is scary. Since the founding of our nation there have been groups out to destroy it just as there have been groups out to save it. I see this as a meeting of two such groups. Although it hasn't gotten a lot of media hype...the media HAS been there throughout most of this, they aren't reporting on it, though...it's been kept 'quiet' except for say...Santilli, Talk Network and a few others. A lot has happened, they've had local ranchers who once only visited them at night finally find the courage to visit in the day light...KrisAnne Hall, the constitutional attorney, went and gave classes there last week, here in Utah we had Jason Chaffetz, Rob Bishop, Chris Stewert (Mia Love couldn't make it...other committments) and others meet with the public & Utah commissioners/ranchers/environmentalists (they-enviros-had to be told to behave or leave) & this issue was discussed, that evening 8 ranchers cancelled their permits with the BLM & forest service...suffice it to say that the protesters have had an impact! One in which the fed needed to shut down asap. It is much much bigger and more dangerous to our Nation than anything else right now. Simply put...we need to abolish agencies and nullify laws that are not Constitutional.
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 12:00 PM foundation horse - 2016-01-28 10:34 AM The question that stands out in my mind is this: What transpired to cause the FEDS (BLM/FBI) to use deadly force on an unarmed group? Also, I recommend reading "Storm Over Rangelands" in regards to researching the background to Western States Land Ownership vs. The Federal Government. Plus look into the background of The BLM and Federal Forest Service and see where they evolved from. Another item to research is The Federal Land Office and what their purpose was. The answers lie in this research and it is absolutely scary! Yes it is scary.
Since the founding of our nation there have been groups out to destroy it just as there have been groups out to save it. I see this as a meeting of two such groups.
Although it hasn't gotten a lot of media hype...the media HAS been there throughout most of this, they aren't reporting on it, though...it's been kept 'quiet' except for say...Santilli, Talk Network and a few others. A lot has happened, they've had local ranchers who once only visited them at night finally find the courage to visit in the day light...KrisAnne Hall, the constitutional attorney, went and gave classes there last week, here in Utah we had Jason Chaffetz, Rob Bishop, Chris Stewert (Mia Love couldn't make it...other committments) and others meet with the public & Utah commissioners/ranchers/environmentalists (they-enviros-had to be told to behave or leave) & this issue was discussed, that evening 8 ranchers cancelled their permits with the BLM & forest service...suffice it to say that the protesters have had an impact! One in which the fed needed to shut down asap.
It is much much bigger and more dangerous to our Nation than anything else right now.
Simply put...we need to abolish agencies and nullify laws that are not Constitutional.
AGREED! And while I personally question the recreational use of Marijuana, Colorado and Washington have exercised their 10th Amendment RIGHT to nullify unConstitutional Acts/Laws!
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Pete Santilli...the only 'free press' covering this story from beginning to his arrest. This is a video of his arrest. Now...theres' nobody documenting anything. http://www.amtvmedia.com/exclusive-footage-of-pete-santillis-arrest/ | |
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Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
Posts: 5400
| RidenFly - 2016-01-28 10:14 AM I'm amazed at how little press this is getting. I'm amazed that Obama weighed in on the Oscar debate but hasn't said a thing about this needless killing.
No surprise, tho oscars deal is about blacks so he is all over that | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | 3canstorun - 2016-01-28 7:44 AM
Bear - 2016-01-28 10:40 AM I'm still looking for a good, objective account of the incident. To be perfectly honest, I haven't paid that much attention to these incidents. They really aren't that new, but it wouldn't surprise me to see more and more of these sorts of conflicts, as the divisions in the U.S. become deeper. We've had Russell Means and the AIM movement, Gordon Kaul and Posse Commitatus, Waco, and Ruby Ridge. One of these days a real armed conflict will erupt, because I sense we are sitting on a powder keg.
I also have not paid too much attention to it, due to no computer at home to read, (other then phone). And, reading on the phone is hard. I would need to start at the beginning of the burning of the BLM land, etc.
However, I am interested to see the police version of their video of what happened. And, if the man was gunned down with his hands up in the arm as stated by some.
The problem actually begins WAY before the Hammonds. It's been building up to this for about 60 years and it's not just here in Oregon. It's all over. I have quite a collection of videos and articles about this and stories that are almost exactly the same perpetrated by the BLM, EPA and other alphabet agencies. These men were not wackos or terrorists. They were just like any hardworking American, trying to put food on the table and do their part. Until they either had to stand up or be broken. | |
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Hog Tie My Mojo
Posts: 4847
Location: Opelousas, LA |
Just like they arrested the guy who made the planned parenthood videos for mishandling government documents yet Hillary is still running for president. So much for free speech if you happen to be saying something the government would rather keep quiet. This is just the beginning, wish people would wake up. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's another video...very sad. I 'think' this is at the Hammond Ranch...fire set by BLM. Part of the reason why Bundy and friends got involved. eta: How about the FBI prove that Lavoy's pickup is not riddles with bullets? If they can... https://www.facebook.com/AmericanLandsCouncil/videos/964207073659086/?fref=nf
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-28 1:33 PM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm |
That's the fire the BLM set by the small town of Frenchglen. About 2012 I think. There was a big stink about this then. Nothing came of it. They get braver and braver. In this video, they burned up someones home and cattle, along with fence and corrals. This is an example of what they do. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | This young man has seen the corruption in the Burns area for many years and explains more of the background.
https://www.facebook.com/saved/?cref=28
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | More background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI9IlziWphY | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Sooooo.....thoughts on what to try to do? I hate sitting by while this drags on. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Eyewitness accounts of the roadblock and shooting of LaVoy. She's kind of rattled. The part that gets me is after he was shot in the FACE and was down, they shot him a few more times for good measure.
http://trentloos.podomatic.com/entry/2016-01-27T14_07_17-08_00 | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | OregonBR - 2016-01-28 12:42 PM Eyewitness accounts of the roadblock and shooting of LaVoy. She's kind of rattled. The part that gets me is after he was shot in the FACE and was down, they shot him a few more times for good measure. http://trentloos.podomatic.com/entry/2016-01-27T14_07_17-08_00[/quo...
Thanks for all your links! I just wish the FBI would...if they can...prove that Lavoy's pickup is NOT riddled with bullets...that should be easy enough to do, huh? Again...if they can. I really do wonder if the fbi started shooting expecting a different reaction and finally realized that there were no return shots and the shooters stopped...out of fear, refusal to murder innocents...who knows. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 11:56 AM
OregonBR - 2016-01-28 12:42 PM Eyewitness accounts of the roadblock and shooting of LaVoy. She's kind of rattled. The part that gets me is after he was shot in the FACE and was down, they shot him a few more times for good measure. http://trentloos.podomatic.com/entry/2016-01-27T14_07_17-08_00[/quo...
Thanks for all your links! I just wish the FBI would...if they can...prove that Lavoy's pickup is NOT riddled with bullets...that should be easy enough to do, huh? Again...if they can. I really do wonder if the fbi started shooting expecting a different reaction and finally realized that there were no return shots and the shooters stopped...out of fear, refusal to murder innocents...who knows.
They unloaded on the truck full of people. I have no doubt they were trying to get rid of all the witnesses. At that point the people in the truck were all on the floor hunkered down.
There's a video circulating of a woman interviewing LaVoy. She is saying "What if the people who took over the compound were of color? Muslim specifically." LaVoy refused to fall for that. But I will contend if that happened, Ovomit would send them food and supplies and apologize to them for the compound being so remote. He'd probably send them DVD movies so they didn't get bored. SMH What an upside down world we live in. Edited by OregonBR 2016-01-28 2:14 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 280
| cyount2009 - 2016-01-28 8:54 AM
wickedstepmother - 2016-01-28 9:20 AM
river runner - 2016-01-28 6:56 AM
The main stream media will never report what actually happened and anyone who does will be labeled "crazy and extremist". Just like the EPA, the BLM needs a check on it's powers. People from the eastern part of the US really have no idea what it is like to live with them.
Or the far west. Anyone west of the cascades tend to be extremely liberals and will never acknowledge or admit that the government is sending our county to hell on a shutter :-/
People who do not live in the West and who have never seen first hand the struggle between the ranchers and the BLM and Forest Circus will never understand. The authorities charge them for AUMs, then come in cut the number of cattle they can graze that summer into a third of paid allotment and the rancher is expected to pay the original lease AUM for ever, regardless of how many cows he is allowed to graze every year. Every year that number of cows is cut smaller and smaller until it gets to a point where the cattleman goes screw it! Some sell out some put their cattle out there any ways. They paid for it, they should get to graze it. It would be like paying rent for the entire year before hand and then the landlord coming in and saying only 1 of your family of 4 can stay in the house for the next 4 months because the faucet's leaky and the dishwasher doesn't work but you still have to pay the full months rent for the months they can't live there and there is no refunds.
I know. I live in central washington, in the biggest County in the state (with the smallest population, lol). Our entire County is cattle ranches and farmland. My best friends lease is over 70,000 acres last I checked. The ranch I'm leaving right now (I'm a cleaning lady for them) is similar in size. I'm very aware. I also am two hours from Portland and I will tell you, 90% of the people from West of the cascades just DO. NOT. GET. IT. they might as well be from new york. It's absolutely aweful. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | There are some of us on the west side of the Cascades that do get it. I live in the Willamette Valley and I'm for the farmers and ranchers. If they will do this kind of thing to them, they will do it to me when I'm in the way. It's only a matter of when. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj81iGwTlDM | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is from KrisAnne Hall's fb concerning the Fox news interview with an fbi negotiator. Sums up my feelings right now. Former FBI agent testimony on FOX: They warned Bundy that he would not be allowed to spread his message to other areas. “If you intentionally go someplace the police have told you not to go, you are provoking that confrontation. And it’s very clear that’s what they did here. They were trying to spread this protest, this unlawful activity, to another area, Law enforcement very clearly told them not to go.” So I guess, according to this former FBI agent... the PENALTY for of Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Press, The Right to Peacefully Assemble, and the Right to Petition your government for a redress of our grievances is... summary execution by federal agents. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! http://goo.gl/Q5EHkr (a flyer you can print out & a short video) I suppose FOX News is ok with that. After all, there was no shock in Jenna Lee’s voice that someone would be shot for “spreading a protest to another area.” I guess Jenna Lee is convinced that the 1st Amendment is only there to protect reporters and that the government would never shoot a FOX reporter for “spreading” a message unwanted by the government. I have never been more sick and ashamed of my countrymen than I am at this moment. Hey FOX I hope you enjoy operating in a place where you are free to spew your undying servitude. So please feel free to crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you. I feel no kinship with you and may our Posterity never know you as our countrymen. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | KrisAnne Hall is wonderful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE
^^^ about the Bundy's.
About the history of our constitution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2POwIwA8E
Both excellent. | |
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Member
Posts: 23
| No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property.
They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | permanent vacation - 2016-01-28 6:04 PM
No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property.
They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc.
Double standards ring a bell? | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Looks like this will becoming to an end soon. Reminds me of Waco and think it will end up as badly. http://freedomoutpost.com/2016/01/convoy-heads-into-oregon-refuge-including-heavily-armed-vehicles/
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | permanent vacation - 2016-01-28 6:04 PM No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property. They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc.
It's the liberal way...Only their causes are okay. Look what they did to Baltimore...What a joke. | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| Nevertooold - 2016-01-28 7:13 PM permanent vacation - 2016-01-28 6:04 PM No one arrested during "Occupy Oakland" or "Occupy Wallstreet" or "Occupy whatever". They too occupied federal property and private property. They openly did drugs, defecated in the streets and on sidewalks, and raped other occupiers. They were tolerated and not arrested and most certainly not shot for their "occupation" of federal buildings etc. It's the liberal way...Only their causes are okay. Look what they did to Baltimore...What a joke.
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Member
Posts: 14
| VOTE TRUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!
Edited by hereintexas 2016-01-28 7:35 PM
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-01-28 8:40 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | There was no audio on that video, but it looks like the way Biblia described it. It sure didn't look like he was shot multiple times. | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Full video.The FBI has released the full, unedited video of deadly confrontation with Oregon Militia - This is the complete video footage of a joint FBI and Oregon State Police traffic stop and OSP officer-involved shooting of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum on the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. This footage, which has only been edited to blur out aircraft information, was taken by the FBI on 01/26/2016 and released by the FBI on 01/28/2016. .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did. Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I dont know and none of us do.. so we can only speculate.tragic either way.. | |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM
Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did. Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him. | |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | musikmaker - 2016-01-28 11:29 AM
Copied from a fb page SO THE "CONSTITUTIONAL SHERIFF" WHO WAS SO OPEN TO MR BUNDY AND HIS GROUP AND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AT A TOWN HALL MEETING WAITING ON BUNDY TO JOIN THEM IN GRANT COUNTY IS A LIAR HE SET THEM UP !!!! HOW CAN YOU BE AT A MEETING WAITING FOR THEMALITIA TO BE WELCOMED WHEN YOUR OUT ON THE SCENE WHILE THEY ARE BEING MURDERED AND SHOT..........................................................Grant county Sheriff Sheriff Glenn Palmer (left) carries a shotgun back to his patrol vehicle, which was serving as part of a roadblock. Highway 395 was blocked at Seneca between John Day and Burns by Oregon State police officers the evening of Tuesday, H
Are they actually grinning in that picture????? | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Now they're saying he had a 9 mm in the pocket he was reaching for. Why do I have a hard time believing the official line? I do agree that his actions in the video gave them an excuse to shoot. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-01-28 9:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him.
He stopped a the first roadblock, Ryan Payne got out after they shot at him and missed...(and WAS arrested there according to the girls story AND the fbi), they said, and I have no doubt about this as it's what they've held to all along, is that they were going to the sheriff. This entire issue is over who has the jurisdiction and the DUTY to protect the people...the FBI is an investigative agency that was created to investigate the federal government, NOT the people, so the question is, "Are we the people answerable to unelected agencies?" The national gov't is to protect our bordrs, handle international trade, deal with state to state issues. The state is to protect the people within it's borders as well as handle the resources etc... The counties are to protect the people from the states! Very well thought out and offers several layers of protections for our rights. Sheirff Ward was and is guilty of 'dereliction of duty'...lest we forget WHY the protesters were there in the first place...they would not have been had the sheriff done his job from the beginning. So....Lavoy refusing to stop for a federal officer was absolutely expected and within his constitutional rights. Yes, he chose to take a bullet or 6...it's said that he was saying "Just shoot me..." as in JUST shoot me, nobody else. Another thing...the fbi spokesman concerning this video said that after Lavoy was shot they then shot the vehicle with 'rubber bullets' and gas...does that make one bit of sense? Why didn't they shoot Lavoy with 'rubber bullets'? Do they carry 2 guns and all switch at the same time? Preplanned to only shoot 'rubber bullets' at the vehicle? lol...sure. Dumb statement by him as it throws more doubt on everything he says. May God Bless America...she needs it. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 8:33 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-28 9:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him. He stopped a the first roadblock, Ryan Payne got out after they shot at him and missed...(and WAS arrested there according to the girls story AND the fbi), they said, and I have no doubt about this as it's what they've held to all along, is that they were going to the sheriff. This entire issue is over who has the jurisdiction and the DUTY to protect the people...the FBI is an investigative agency that was created to investigate the federal government, NOT the people, so the question is, "Are we the people answerable to unelected agencies?"
The national gov't is to protect our bordrs, handle international trade, deal with state to state issues.
The state is to protect the people within it's borders as well as handle the resources etc...
The counties are to protect the people from the states!
Very well thought out and offers several layers of protections for our rights.
Sheirff Ward was and is guilty of 'dereliction of duty'...lest we forget WHY the protesters were there in the first place...they would not have been had the sheriff done his job from the beginning.
So....Lavoy refusing to stop for a federal officer was absolutely expected and within his constitutional rights.
Yes, he chose to take a bullet or 6...it's said that he was saying "Just shoot me..." as in JUST shoot me, nobody else.
Another thing...the fbi spokesman concerning this video said that after Lavoy was shot they then shot the vehicle with 'rubber bullets' and gas...does that make one bit of sense? Why didn't they shoot Lavoy with 'rubber bullets'? Do they carry 2 guns and all switch at the same time? Preplanned to only shoot 'rubber bullets' at the vehicle? lol...sure. Dumb statement by him as it throws more doubt on everything he says.
May God Bless America...she needs it.
I had the same thoughts. They killed a guy with live ammo and then supposedly switched to rubber to shoot at the vehicle? How did the other dude get shot in the arm? | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | jbhoot - 2016-01-28 10:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him.
AGREED.........Watch the entire video......LE have to "assume" that he had a gun. This guy, who usually carried a gun, refused direct orders, fled the scene, RAN OVER a cop, ran around like a maniac and charged at the cops, reached to his waistband and was shot......gee....do you think, he MAY have contributed to his own death. Additionally, the statements about "rubber bullets and changing guns....how insane....there were over 10-15 cops, on site.....some "may" have only been armed with guns and rubber bullets..... He "could" have stepped out of the vehicle and laid down......AND would still be alive......... | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Here's a petition to the White House to try to free the Hammonds.
https://www.facebook.com/standwiththehammonds/?fref=nf Might not make much difference, but at least we can be heard. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder. What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 8:25 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-28 10:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-28 10:11 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-28 7:38 PM LIVE VIDEO>. he rammed a roadblock hit a agent and jumped out and reached to his waistband after running around erratic.. make your own conclusions .. horrible but this is why he was shot.One time.. and he did reach for his gun..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE
I didn't see where he hit an agent? Maybe I watched a different presentation that went over it a bit more...one that clearly shows the back window of the camper being shot out before he was hit, and some are saying he may have been gut shot first and always carried his gun on his right hip...for sure we know that the fed wouldn't release that video if it wasn't 'fuzzy' enough to convince the public...and we have to ask WHY did it happen that way? A complete set up! The plane, the roadblock...the invite. This story resembles the young girls much more than the fbi's original story did.
Jury still out for me. And I'm not alone...I still want to pics of the truck. The fbi's saying they shot 'rubber bullets,' whatever, why the hell would they do that in a 'shootout'? ha
Watch the full video. He was stupid. Had he not run the first stop and try to run the second he would be in jail and alive. I do agree with a lot of what he was protesting however his death is on him. AGREED.........Watch the entire video......LE have to "assume" that he had a gun. This guy, who usually carried a gun, refused direct orders, fled the scene, RAN OVER a cop, ran around like a maniac and charged at the cops, reached to his waistband and was shot......gee....do you think, he MAY have contributed to his own death. Additionally, the statements about "rubber bullets and changing guns....how insane....there were over 10-15 cops, on site.....some "may" have only been armed with guns and rubber bullets.....
He "could" have stepped out of the vehicle and laid down......AND would still be alive.........
You are right...he and the others should have just minded their own business like all good little minions. Stop trying to make this world a beter place, don't stand for own freedom and rights much less anyone elses...and certainly don't upset the leo's, especially those who use our money and our weapons against us...and get away with it every time. Why was Ryan Bundy shot with a 'live' round? Why was the front windshield shot out BEFORE they went off the road? WTH was Lavoy supposed to do? The girl said they fled the first roadblock becasue they were being shot at...so far, her testimony matches exactly the video...the fbi said at first that they only fired 3 shots. Liars. Swallow what you will...live in a oncrete box if you choose...I admire Lavoy for saying, "No thanks". Look at this and tell me he was reaching for a gun...remember, there's no audio, he ran FROM the vehicle to stop them shooting AT it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb | |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM
Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder. What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!!
What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers. Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them. Scary direction they're taking us... | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
I'm sorry but at about seven seconds of this video, he reaches to his waist and then it looks like he has "something" in his hand....perhaps someone can enlarge THAT still. pic.....
I realize that you are upset and outraged over this incident but the fact remains....Had he exited the vehicle and hit the ground he would be ALIVE...... | |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM
jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!!
What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers. Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them. Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you. | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | NJJ - 2016-01-29 10:31 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
I'm sorry but at about seven seconds of this video, he reaches to his waist and then it looks like he has "something" in his hand....perhaps someone can enlarge THAT still. pic.....
I realize that you are upset and outraged over this incident but the fact remains....Had he exited the vehicle and hit the ground he would be ALIVE......
I watched that video too and it looks like he was going for his waist a few times and it did look like he finally got something out, and I agree as soon as he got out of the truck he should had hit the snow and layed there. What a sad deal... | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 9:31 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
I'm sorry but at about seven seconds of this video, he reaches to his waist and then it looks like he has "something" in his hand....perhaps someone can enlarge THAT still. pic.....
I realize that you are upset and outraged over this incident but the fact remains....Had he exited the vehicle and hit the ground he would be ALIVE......
They were shooting at the vehicle before this...his attitude was Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death...no doubt about that, I admire it, myself, he said many times that nobody needed to die over this...our government is out of control. Period. I'm outraged at the willinigness of the people to get over it so easily...because, believe me, if we fail to hold our leo's, our government and our citizens responsible now then we're headed down Merle's hill like that snowball headed for hell.
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | jbhoot - 2016-01-29 10:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you.
These MEN were armed and strutted around with assault rifles DARING LE to intervene for weeks........If they were on a city street, they would have been gunned down long before now........ | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
| 1DSoon - 2016-01-28 8:48 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-27 9:41 PM www.oregonlive.com has covered the entire occupation. You probably shouldn't repeat things from anti-government militia websites unless you want people to get the wrong idea, like it depends on what color the victim is whether you stand with police force. You should take particular note of the video and testimony of the driver of one of the Bundy vehicles explaining what Finicum did prior to being shot. It is surprisingly similar to police accounts. As for where they were going, it was to John Day to promote more violence, not to meet agents. Please educate yourselves on the facts, and for the sake of real ranchers quit calling those idiot welfare queen, anti-American dirtbags "Ranchers" . It gives us all a bad name and the people who are home working and taking care of their stock and families don't deserve to be painted with the same brush in the national media. I'm glad to see at least one like minded socialist on this board.
I thought I was surrounded by uneducated right wing nut jobs.
Finney you are exactly right I have no idea why the Government is putting up with this nonsense. should have been ended weeks ago by any means necassary.
if everyone ignore this idiot they would go awy they thrive on controversy | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you.
There's a 'ton' of rules and regs that are not Constitutional that they broke...yup. Otherwise, I guess I'm not as smart as you think! lol... It was an ambush...they carefully laid the the trap and created a situation that would allow for the murder of American Citizens that had, perhaps, broken some vague rules, but, seriously, they were not 'criminals' in the sense of being dangerous to anyone except the powers that be...they were and are dangerous to someone I'd say, who do you think that is? | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 9:46 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 10:36 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:14 AM jbhoot - 2016-01-29 9:10 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 10:01 AM Here's a 13 second enhanced video of the murder.
What's insane is that our government does this to law abiding citizensw!!!! I'm outraged and disgusted...EF the 'brotherhood'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUzzrjBo_HU&sns=fb
Law abiding? Really !!! What 'law' did they break? OH...yeah...they are charged with conspiracy to impede the duties of officers.
Funny how they don't believe in 'conspiracies' until it suits them.
Scary direction they're taking us...
Oh come on you are way smarter than that. I can think of several and so can you. These MEN were armed and strutted around with assault rifles DARING LE to intervene for weeks........If they were on a city street, they would have been gunned down long before now........
Strutted around with ASSAULT rifles? Goodness...I don't know where you got that info. And, they HAVE been in the community, on the 'city streets', giving classes, talking to and educating the locals as to how they can get their ranches and land back, They've met with the sheriff, the fbi, media. I don't understand the visual you must have that men who are legally armed and have not threatened or harmed anyone could be 'gunned down' in our streets...or anywhere! I'm sorry...I cannot express what I feel and know to be true if there's not a 'spark' in anothers heart or head that is trying to 'grasp' it...what liberty means, what freedom and states rights represent. Have a good one...I will continue to hope and pray for everyone. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost.
If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
Edited by Bear 2016-01-29 11:29 AM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-29 11:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost.
The last time he reached down it did look like he had pulled something out and had it in his hand. I think he was wrong should had just droped to the ground and layed there. This may have been what he wanted, sad to think. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled. He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him... Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed. It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow. I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made. hmmm...guess that's just me! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | I think this sums it up...for me at least. Good day everyone, may we find our way and it be Blessed. The Great Challenge of 2016 - We the People vs. Corrupt Government - Burns, Oregon January, 2016. There has been an historic happening in our nation. It will either go down in history as a failed attack by a domestic terrorist militia group that resulted in all gun owners who dared speak of the excesses of government being branded as terrorists (just what this corrupt overreaching tyrannical government wants), OR it will go down in history as the establishing of a line drawn in the sands of an agonizing struggle between freedom and subjugation that was never erased and led to the liberation of the citizens of the USA and the re-establishment of a free Constitutional Republic. Which of these accounts is written in the annals of time depends on you and me. It totally depends upon whether we breathe a sigh of relief that we do not have to be distracted by the saga in Burs anymore and sink back into comfortable apathy as we continue to play the game of politics to see who can insult the others' candidate with the most vitriol and 'damaging evidence,' OR if we pick up OUR phones and OUR pens and sound a certain call for the end of this government's overreach and abuse of its people. What are you going to do in the aftermath of the Burns. Oregon Challenge of 2016? In the aftermath of a good man making the ultimate sacrifice for his (our) country? Just pretend nothing happened here? | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Just one more thing...from Ammon Bundy. Ammon Bundy – Malheur Wildlife Refuge Case 01.28.2016 – AMMON’S STATEMENT My message still remains. Turn yourselves in and do not use physical force. Use the national platform we have to continue to defend liberty through our constitutional rights in an Article 3 Court with an Article 3 judge. America must understand where we are at. We must make a choice now between freedom or force. Are we going to live free? I will not abandon all that we have accomplished in the name of liberty for the sake of my own personal freedom. We must choose the path of liberty which comes with freedom of choice. People must not be okay with what is going on. I am committed to freedom not force. Freedom not force. We are done with the culture of force. We are done with the government pointing guns at us to enforce their will upon the people. This is not liberty. This is not America. As much as I desire to see my own babies and my wife and to be the loving husband and caring father for my six children, and to be home with them caring for their needs and holding them in my arms, I must not desire this at the cost of freedom. I want to make sure the American people understand that we have a duty in our situation to further the defense of our God given rights. The world is listening. We will use the criminal discovery process to obtain information and government records. We will continue to educate the American people of the injustices that are taking place. We can do this through an Article 3 Court in front of an Article 3 judge. This is the Constitution. And it is ours to use and we will use it. When we were detained, we were traveling to Grant County to educate those people of their individual rights. We were prepared with computers, PA systems and projectors. We have been branded as armed occupiers. But for weeks we have spent endless hours visiting the people in Harney County and surrounding counties presenting to them solutions and choices for them to make. We were being very successful in educating people and getting them to move towards freedom. At the time that we were gaining momentum through education. For this the government once again chose force that turned lethal. We only had guns for our protection and never once pointed them at another individual or had any desire to do so. The people have a right to bear arms for their own protection. We never wanted bloodshed. We verbalized this many, many times and we continue to do so. I mourn Lavoy’s death. Lavoy was a man who put other’s needs and safety before his own. After we were arrested, the FBI agents that transported us said that Lavoy’s shooting would have been recorded on video. We are anxiously waiting to review this video. Questions must be answered. The choice is ours. Are we going to stand for freedom or are we going to fall by force. Statement by Lisa Bundy, Ammon’s Wife – 1/28/2016 Lisa made a statement (audio M4A) ay asking those remaining at the refuge to please go home.She has heard from Ammon and agrees. FULL TEXT: This is Lisa Bundy, Ammon Bundy’s wife. I spoke with Ammon’s lawyers yesterday and heard from his voice that those were his instructions: he wants people to go home; to go to their families. STATEMENT BY AMMON BUNDY – 1/27/2016 First I want to address my beloved friend Lavoy Finnicum. Lavoy is one of the greatest men and greatest patriots I have ever seen. His love for this country ran deep through the blood he gave yesterday. And I mourn for him and his family. I’m praying for you fervently in every prayer. We will have more to say later but right now I am asking the federal government to allow the people at the refuge to go home without being prosecuted. To those remaining at the refuge, I love you. Let us take this fight from here. Please stand down. Go home and hug your families. This fight is ours for now in the courts. Please go home. Being in the system, we are going to take this opportunity to answer the questions on Art. 1, Section 8, Cause 17 of the United States Constitution regarding rights of statehood and the limits on federal property ownership. Thank you and god bless America. END OF STATEMENT | |
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 11:46 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled.
He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him...
Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed.
It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow.
I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made.
hmmm...guess that's just me!
Yep he could have already been shot and just reaching for his side, but he could have just droped to the ground, just so sad all the way around..And just a waste of life.. | |
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Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
There is a link to a petition on behalf of the Hammonds posted I think on pg. 5. We should all be signing. I saw Rep. Greg Walden addressed the House on this very issue. He gave a great speech and it's so good to see a elected speaking on behalf of "We the people" of rural America. Also, everyone should go to youtube and type in LaVoy Finecum. There are alot of video's he himself put up from his ranch prior to this whole occupation deal. The out of control rogue agency of BLM has been harrassing him and his ranch for a very long time also. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group. "Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1898
| Southtxponygirl - 2016-01-29 11:58 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-29 11:46 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled.
He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him...
Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed.
It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow.
I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made.
hmmm...guess that's just me!
Yep he could have already been shot and just reaching for his side, but he could have just droped to the ground, just so sad all the way around..And just a waste of life..
I am not standing on either side at this point, you can consider me a fence chicken from here BUT if he was shot, before he reached for his waist/stomach/shoulder what have you, it is very likely dropping to his knees was not the first response he would have had and placing his hand over his wound is a very likely scenario. People just like animals do weird and unpredictable things when they are wounded, especially if they are wounded by surprise. Again I don't know, I wasn't there and there is no audio to go along with the video but I could not blame a man who covers a wound instead of dropping to his knees if that is in fact the correct scenario.
To me he looked very confused and frazzled when he exited the vehicle. He SHOULD have hit the ground at that point but I am sure his emotions were high. I am sorry he lost his life standing up for what he believed to be right. I am sure he did not die in vein. I am guessing the stances that will ensue will be many and great.
There are a lot of pieces of this that just don't make any sense to me, like the sheriff supposedly being at the meeting waiting on them and actually being at the road block. Deep down I feel like they were ambushed, that I am almost sure, was he shot in cold blood? I just don't know but sure didn't like what I saw in the statement from the FBI Special Agent, and hearing someone say there was a K-9 there makes it even more suspicious.
A part me wants to believe they made an example out of him, the other part of me wants to stand behind the LEO, they have orders to follow, they had to assume he was armed. (I read somewhere in this thread that someone had mentioned he never went to a meeting armed, he could have arrived there with a pistol and simply left it in the truck.) I am also wondering why the dash cam or body cam (if they had them) videos haven't been released yet? Why only this video that is so far away it's hard to see detail?
Edited by cyount2009 2016-01-29 12:25 PM
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A Somebody to Everybody
Posts: 41354
Location: Under The Big Sky Of Texas | cyount2009 - 2016-01-29 12:23 PM
Southtxponygirl - 2016-01-29 11:58 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-29 11:46 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 10:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
That looks correct until you realize that they were already shooting...the windshield was shot out when they were approaching the road block, a leo stepped in front of the vehicle, shot and Lavoy then drove off the road, he was braking prior to that, and they DID stop before and that's when the shooting started & why they fled.
He did not exit the vehicle with a gun in his hand as he would have if his intent was to kill and/or be killed. IF he tried to go for a gun it was after they already shot him...it's very possible he reached for his stomach because he was shot in the stomach. He likely figured that since they were going to kill him anyhow then he might try to take one with him...
Those that knew him said, and there are pictures to show, that he carried his gun on his right hip and never went to meetings armed.
It'll get spun however to keep the public from getting upset anyhow.
I'm still very appalled that anyone, anywhere, any race could be shot without an absolute life or death threat being made.
hmmm...guess that's just me!
Yep he could have already been shot and just reaching for his side, but he could have just droped to the ground, just so sad all the way around..And just a waste of life..
I am not standing on either side at this point, you can consider me a fence chicken from here BUT if he was shot, before he reached for his waist/stomach/shoulder what have you, it is very likely dropping to his knees was not the first response he would have had and placing his hand over his wound is a very likely scenario. People just like animals do weird and unpredictable things when they are wounded, especially if they are wounded by surprise. Again I don't know, I wasn't there and there is no audio to go along with the video but I could not blame a man who covers a wound instead of dropping to his knees if that is in fact the correct scenario.
To me he looked very confused and frazzled when he exited the vehicle. He SHOULD have hit the ground at that point but I am sure his emotions were high. I am sorry he lost his life standing up for what he believed to be right. I am sure he did not die in vein. I am guessing the stances that will ensue will be many and great.
There are a lot of pieces of this that just don't make any sense to me, like the sheriff supposedly being at the meeting waiting on them and actually being at the road block. Deep down I feel like they were ambushed, that I am almost sure, was he shot in cold blood? I just don't know but sure didn't like what I saw in the statement from the FBI Special Agent, and hearing someone say there was a K-9 there makes it even more suspicious.
A part me wants to believe they made an example out of him, the other part of me wants to stand behind the LEO, they have orders to follow, they had to assume he was armed. (I read somewhere in this thread that someone had mentioned he never went to a meeting armed, he could have arrived there with a pistol and simply left it in the truck. ) I am also wondering why the dash cam or body cam (if they had them ) videos haven't been released yet? Why only this video that is so far away it's hard to see detail?
I know we can try to figure this out all day long, like you said we were not there so dont know what happen, just so sad, I'm not taking sides on this either, just saying what my thought's were after watching some of the videos. | |
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Stinky Cat Owner
Posts: 4097
Location: Oregon | NJJ - 2016-01-29 10:21 AM Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice. They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group.
"Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward.
My point exactly. I was using the term 'help' loosely and being sarcastic. | |
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Desert Diva
Posts: 4946
Location: The birthplace of Honest Abe | I just want to say one thing, okay 2. First the windshield is not shot out. and 2 if he would have left his hands up or just laid down he would still be alive, they didnt shoot him until he dropped his hands down. | |
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Lived to tell about it and will never do it again
Posts: 5400
| I'm not convinced that he would be alive if he layed down. So far to me it seems to be a set up amd they wanted him dead. I also have to wonder if he knew something that they didn't want him telling or if they figure with him dead they get his land. Just some thoughts that are going on in my head. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-29 11:21 AM Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice. They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......
But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group.
"Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward.
I think it's a good time to ask what you, or anyone else, thinks thier AGENDA is? What exactly do they hope to gain for themselves? The Hammonds most certaily do support them...don't believe everything the mainstream tells kyou, they came out on the first day of the protest thanking, hugging and grateful for the support, Dwight Hammond said, "This is not about us, this is about America". The protesters never stopped pushing for the release of the Hammonds nor a 'redress of their grievences'. Please, many of you said you weren't following this and now you know all about it...from where? Mainstream media. I hope it doesn't divide the citizens even more... It's well known (if you look) that the Hammonds were threatened with a tough time in jail if they publicly supported the protesers. People can be so naive and gullable...don't be that! Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions or form an opinion too soon...thanks, I'm glad we have this forum to discuss and share. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Here ya go...it's a couple minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBNC-ZA9OKE&sns=fb | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | Katie's - 2016-01-29 10:07 AM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
^^ Agree!!
The website http://www.oregonlive.com has the video zoomed in and slowed way down. It does get super fuzzy, judge for yourself.
I see where LEO gave the suspect multiple opportunities to stand down. He choose not to, fully aware LEO had guns drawn and were prepared to shoot. WTH.
I think there is a ton of misinformation on this thread, which happens when we depend on biased websites for factual information, when in reality they are just out to spin the truth to suit their own agendas. What a huge disservice to the very real problem ranchers face. | |
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Common Sense and then some
Location: So. California | euchee - 2016-01-29 12:13 PM I'm not convinced that he would be alive if he layed down. So far to me it seems to be a set up amd they wanted him dead. I also have to wonder if he knew something that they didn't want him telling or if they figure with him dead they get his land. Just some thoughts that are going on in my head.
The deceased rancher was from Arizona. | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | People - regardless of what you think of LaVoy - please consider signing the petition to free the Hammonds. I don't think there is a way to defend what the BLM has done to them. At least don't let this death go in vain....research the Hammond's story and do what you can to help.
Consider what the government has done to these people to drive good people to desparate measures. They're not doing this for fun, they've been prosecuted for years.
Greg Walden addressing the US House https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx4ocLdWE90&feature=youtu.be
BLM/Oregon: Judge Grasty's Brother a BLM Agent and scandals of the BLM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrSz9xHYW1w&feature=youtu.be
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-is-the-oregon-standoff-really-about/ What the Oregon Standoff Is Really About Forget the Bundys and "terrorism"—the real crime is what federal bullies do to ranchers like the Hammond family. -
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The occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge in Burns, Oregon, by a group led by Ammon Bundy—yes, of those Bundys—was supposed to have focused attention on the plight of a rancher family that has been fighting decades-long efforts by federal officials to drive them off their land. Instead, this dramatic act of civil disobedience has done the opposite: amid debates over the Bundy family, their tactics, and ideology, the focus has been taken off the Hammond family, and their struggle to preserve their land and their way of life has been largely obscured. This is their story. Dwight Hammond and his wife Susan bought their ranch in 1964. The Hammond ranch consists of 6,000 acres, grazing rights in four areas on public land, and rights at three separate water sources. They live in a small ranch house—a beautiful structure of stone and hand-hewn wood—on the property. The land sits in Oregon’s Harney Basin, an area first settled at the tail end of the 19th century. While the narrative we are getting in the media depicts the ranchers as despoilers of the land, implacable enemies of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge established by Teddy Roosevelt in 1908, the true history of the region shows that the “cowboys” who lived there and ran as many as 300,000 head of cattle were in fact its best defenders. Without them, there would be no Malheur Wildlife Refuge. As the cattlemen developed an elaborate irrigation system in order to feed their herds, what had been a huge swampland surrounding Malheur Lake was transformed into rolling meadows, wildlife flocked to the area, and it became a favored spot for migratory birds. In 1913, however, the Oregon state legislature passed the Thompson Act, which authorized anyone who won approval from the Land Board to drain any lake and “reclaim” it for development. Drainage districts were established all over the state, and taxes were extracted from landowners in order to further approved development schemes. The Oregon Swampland Act created a “Reclamation Service,” which surveyed and facilitated the drainage of riparian areas, applying for title to lands owned by the federal government, which would then be turned over to developers who envisioned selling plots for agricultural purposes. (As it turned out, however, the land around Malheur Lake was too salty for crops to grow, but since no one had bothered to investigate, this wasn’t discovered until much later. ) In 1913, the year the Thompson Act was passed, there were no fewer than eight attempts to drain Malheur Lake filed with the Reclamation Service. These efforts were thwarted by the ranchers, represented by the Pacific Livestock Company, who contested the water rights and fought the developers to a standstill. As Nancy Langston puts it in Where Land and Water Meet: A Western Landscape Transformed: “What saved the Malheur Refuge from being destroyed by drainage along with other federal refuges in the region were precisely its tangled water rights and the stubbornness of local ranchers.” Yet the federal officials who today preside over the refuge don’t remember or don’t care to recall that it was the ranchers who saved the land from being despoiled. Imbued with what can only be described as an imperialistic impulse, the feds have relentlessly sought to expand the refuge, using every method, legal and illegal, to drive them off the land. As Ammon Bundy explains on his blog, in the 1970s the Bureau of Land Management (BLM ) and the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS ) launched their campaign of conquest: ranchers were informed that grazing was inimical to wildlife and had to be reduced, if not eliminated. Out of a total of 53 permits, 32 were revoked; grazing fees were raised sky-high, and many ranchers were forced to give up their land. The irrigation system they had created and which had attracted birds and other wildlife to the area was appropriated by the refuge. While the original refuge established by Teddy Roosevelt included only Malheur Lake, and neither the rivers whose waters flowed into it nor most of the land surrounding it, today it covers some 187,000 acres, completely surrounding the Hammonds’ ranch. Those who held on, including the Hammonds, were continually pressured to sell, but the hardscrabble ranchers—who had fought the developers, the state politicians, and the forces of nature to preserve their land and their way of life—were not about to surrender to an army of bureaucrats and the urban elites who ran the environmentalist lobby. Their answer was a firm: no way, no how. As 1980 rolled around, the feds came up with a new battle plan , taking a leaf from the playbook of the Israelis, who have seized Palestine’s water and dole it out in dribs and drabs to their Palestinian helots. The FWS was keen to acquire privately owned land on the nearby Silvies Plain, so the refuge diverted the water, channeling it into Malheur Lake. Water levels rose, soon doubling, and over 30 ranches on the plain were utterly destroyed: homes, barns, and the verdant pastures on which cows once grazed were under water. This broke the back of the rancher resistance: most came to the FWS and gave their land away for a song. It wasn’t until 1989 that the waters began to recede. By then the entire plain was in the grasping hands of the refuge. Still the Hammonds refused to sell, and along with a few other holdouts they began to develop a strategy of resistance. Susan Hammond, the matriarch of the family, began to research how the refuge managed its considerable resources. What she discovered was that the ostensible purpose of the refuge—to provide a habitat for birds that might otherwise be endangered—was ill-served by refuge personnel. She dug out a 1975 study conducted by the FWS itself (as Bundy’s blog notes), which showed that the policies pursued by the refuge and allied federal bureaucracies were driving the birds away. It turned out that private lands bordering the refuge provided a haven for four times as many geese and ducks as the federally held lands. Migrating birds turned up their beaks, so to speak, at the refuge and were 13 times more likely to alight and breed on ranchers’ land. One of the reasons for this is that federal overseers have allowed carp to take over the waters of Malheur Lake and the streams that feed into it. Massive numbers of carp have invaded and destroyed a habitat which once contained grasses and aquatic plants that provided birds and animals with a steady diet. No more. As Oregon Public Broadcasting put it: Scientists say Malheur Lake once provided expansive habitat for waterfowl and other migratory birds along the Pacific Flyway.That was before common carp were introduced to the lake. These fish are native to Eurasia. Malheur wildlife biologist Linda Beck says the common carp was brought to the lake as early as the 1920s, likely as a reliable food source for people living in this arid region… Now the shallow Malheur Lake is mostly brown, open water, free of the plants that provide food, shelter and nesting grounds for the birds… The lake’s estimated carp population runs in the millions. The refuge, the BLM, and the FWS profit from this disaster by hiring commercial fisherman to come in and catch the carp, which is then sold in areas of the country where immigrant communities for whom carp is a favored foodstuff buy it. Forget the birds: it’s the carp that bring in the money. Another big problem—one that would come to figure prominently in the Hammonds’ legal problems—is the invasion of junipers, which are crowding out other plant species and turning what were once fields—maintained by ranchers, who regularly cleared the land for grazing—into forests. Junipers suck up water at an amazing rate, and the result is that those fields have now turned into desert. For years, environmentalists objected to cutting down the junipers because it might encourage grazing on “public” lands, and the federal bureaucracy’s “no use” policies encouraged the juniper invasion, which has now conquered over 6 million acres. Finally, the BLM got wise to the problem, but as with the carp invasion, they reacted far too late. This is another reason why the refuge is not popular with the bird population, who are losing their habitat and being driven out—along with the ranchers. And it isn’t just the junipers that are hogging all the water. In the early 1990s the Hammonds applied for and were granted water rights in an area adjacent to the Refuge by the state authorities. The BLM and FWS went ballistic, with the latter challenging the water rights in Oregon State Circuit Court. They lost—and that’s when the bureaucrats really starting going after the Hammonds. Not long after being told by a judge to back off, the BLM and FWS fenced off the Hammonds’ water—a brazenly illegal act. The Hammonds struck back, dismantling the fence: the feds called in the Harney County sheriff, who arrested Dwight Hammond. Charged with “disturbing and interfering with federal officials,” a felony, Dwight was jailed for two days. Brought before a federal judge, he was released without bail: the hearing was at first postponed, and then it looks like the government was so embarrassed by the illegal actions of the BLM and FWS that they forgot to schedule another hearing date. The whole matter was dropped. But the feds had sent a message to the Hammonds—that the government would not be bound by the law. The lawless behavior escalated. The FWS declared that the Hammonds would no longer have access to a road that enabled them to get to the northern reaches of their land: the only road went through the refuge. The road was barricaded, and FWS officials threatened the Hammonds, warning that there would be consequences if they tried to use the road. But that tactic backfired in the feds’ faces when it was discovered that the road was owned by Harney County, not the refuge. Undeterred, the Energizer Bunnies of the federal bureaucracy revoked the Hammonds’ grazing permit without cause, bypassing any legal procedures. According to Oregon state law, owners of livestock are not required to keep herds within a fence or control their movements. But the law doesn’t apply to vindictive bureaucrats: a federal judge ordered the Hammonds either to fence their land or stop grazing. They were effectively forced to give up grazing on half their land. This was a major blow: it forced them to sell their ranch in order to feed their cattle. They purchased property with sufficient grass and with grazing rights on “public” land. The government soon counterattacked, however, and the grazing rights were arbitrarily revoked. When the new owner of the Hammond ranch suffered a heart attack, the Hammonds managed to reacquire it. But their battle was far from over. Indeed, it had just begun. In early fall 2001, the Hammonds called the local fire department and received permission for a controlled burn on their own property: this is a common method of controlling invasive growth, and in this case it was aimed at getting rid of the junipers that were invading from the neighboring refuge—where little effort had been made to eradicate them—and gaining a foothold on the Hammond ranch. That fire burned out of control onto refuge land; the Hammonds put it out with no help from the BLM or refuge personnel. They didn’t hear from the BLM or any other government agency until charges were brought 13 years later. Remarking on the incident, the judge said: Well, the damage was juniper trees and sagebrush, and there might have been a hundred dollars [in damages], but it doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t affect the guidelines, and I am not sure how much sagebrush a hundred dollars worth is. But I think … mother nature’s probably taken care of any injury. The Tri-State Livestock News quotes Susan Hammond as saying: “We usually called the interagency fire outfit—a main dispatch—to be sure someone wasn’t in the way or that weather wouldn’t be a problem.” Susan said her son Steven was told that the BLM was conducting a burn of their own somewhere in the region the same day, and that they believed there would be no problem with the Hammonds going ahead with their planned fire. The court transcript includes a recording from that phone conversation. Court testimony from a prosecution witness, a range conservationist, elicited the statement that the burn had “improved the conditions on the BLM property.” Environmentalists had put pressure on the BLM to cease controlled burns, and the conditions on the range had deteriorated, so that not only did the juniper invasion increase but fires that did break out due to lightning or other factors burned much hotter, sterilizing the soil and leading to a profusion of weeds. When the problems became all too apparent, the BLM started a program of controlled burns. According to Erin Maupin, a former BLM watershed specialist and range technician, due to the intermingling of public and private land, “collaborative burns” are much more effective, as opposed to trying to follow property lines. This is precisely what the first fire was all about: not “arson,” but rational land management. The second fire Dwight and Steven Hammond were charged with starting occurred in 2006: it happened during a lightning storm, and according to Susan Hammond the reason was to protect their home and property: “There was fire all around them that was going to burn our house and all of our trees and everything. The opportunity to set a back-fire was there and it was very successful. It saved a bunch of land from burning.” According to the feds, a grand total of one acre of federal land was affected, although how this conclusion was reached is hard to say because fires were burning all over the place during the fierce lightning storm. The Hammonds’ neighbor, Ruthie Danielson, confirms this: “Lightning strikes were everywhere, fires were going off,” she said. The morning after the fire, according to Ammon Bundy’s write-up, BLM agents filed a police report with the Harney County Sheriff’s office, charging Dwight and Steven Hammond with arson. A few days passed without any action on the part of the authorities, until a BLM ranger called Steven and asked to meet with him in the town of Frenchglen “for coffee.” As Steven was leaving the meeting he was intercepted by the sheriff and a BLM ranger, arrested, and told to go back and collect his father, who was also being charged. Both were booked on several charges—essentially the same charges that would be brought five years later, minus the “terrorism” angle. The case was reviewed by the district attorney, who deemed the accusations unworthy of prosecution: all charges were dropped. In a just world, that would have been the end of the story. In the world we are living in, however, it was the beginning of the end for the Hammonds. In 2011, the U.S. attorney’s office, responding to agitation from the usual suspects, filed charges against Dwight and Steven Hammond under the Clinton era “Anti-Terrorism Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996,” which carries a minimum sentence of five years in prison for doing damage to federal property. The “Death Penalty” part is included because that’s the maximum penalty: the bill was passed in response to the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building. The government brought nine charges against the Hammonds, including several alleged arsons over the years, conspiracy, utilization of aerial surveillance to further a “terrorist” act, and trying to destroy government property including vehicles and fences. Locals were kept off the jury: some jurors had to drive for close to four hours from Pendleton, 196 miles away. The prosecution was given all the time in the world to make their case: the defense was given a single day, and much testimony was disallowed. However, the testimony of Dwight’s estranged grandson, Dusty Hammond, who was 13 at the time of the fires, and was 24 when he testified, was permitted. Dusty had been having mental problems for some time, and the judge himself admitted that the grandson’s testimony was “unreliable.” Dusty’s testimony was the basis for the government’s assertion that the first fire was started in order to cover up evidence of poaching on federal land: he claimed that he was told to start a fire. Neither judge nor jury bought this testimony, yet it is being broadcast all over the place as “proof” the Hammonds are malicious “arsonists.” On June 22, 2012, the jury threw out or deadlocked on all the charges but two—the two fires the Hammonds admitted to setting. In sentencing them, Judge Michael Hogan declined to impose the minimum sentence, which is five years under the “Anti-Terrorism” statute, averring it would have been “grossly disproportionate” to the crime. He remarked that such a sentence would “shock my conscience,” and furthermore contended that Congress never meant to apply the act in cases like this one. Dwight Hammond was sentenced to three months: Steven was given a year and a day. The sentence was handed down contingent on the understanding that they would not appeal the court’s decision. They were also fined $400,000—this in spite of the judge’s admission that the total damage amounted to about $100. Failure to pay the fine would result in confiscation of their ranch by the BLM, which had been the goal of the government’s long war against the Hammonds all along. Both served their sentences and returned to the community. But the government wasn’t through with them—not by a long shot. In June 2014 Refuge Manager Chad Karges, BLM Field Manager Rhonda Karges, his wife, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni, who had prosecuted the Hammond case, filed an appeal of the sentencing with the Ninth District Federal Court, demanding that the full sentence of five years mandated by the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act be imposed. With Dwight and Steven out of the way, the ranch would be sure to fall into the government’s hands: failure to pay the $400,000 fine by the end of 2015 would result in confiscation of their ranch. To my knowledge, they’ve only paid half that. Furthermore, the Hammonds were forced to give the BLM the right of first refusal if they ever did sell their ranch in order to pay the fine. In either case, the land-grabbing BLM will have achieved their decades-long goal: seizure of the Hammond ranch. There is no resentencing in a case of this kind without the approval of the Justice Department: clearly the intent here was to make an example of the Hammonds, to send a message that any resistance to the federal government’s aggressive tactics in their long war against Western ranchers will be mercilessly crushed. The Ninth District judge, one Ann Aiken, got the message and ruled that the Hammonds be returned to jail for the full five year term, minus time already served. Another factor in the unusual sentencing appeal was the stance of Amanda Marshall, former U.S. attorney for Oregon, who while still in office denounced the original sentence as “ unlawful.” It was she who formally authorized the appeal. Marshall has an interesting history: she had never served as a federal prosecutor prior to her appointment by the Obama administration. Her previous employment was as a “children’s advocate” in the Oregon Department of Justice. Prior to that she was a deputy district attorney in Oregon’s Coos County. She resigned her U.S. attorney position last April, claiming to be suffering from “ post-traumatic stress disorder.” The “trauma” here was no doubt the scandal surrounding her stalking of Assistant U.S. Attorney Scott M. Kerin, who says she had been bombarding him with unwanted text messages, phone calls, and other communications for over a year. Kerin filed a hostile workplace environment complaint against her, claiming she followed him after work hours, and drove by his house, in addition to sending numerous emails. The Justice Department launched an investigation, withdrawing Marshall’s security clearance and essentially making it impossible for her to continue as U.S. attorney. A U.S. attorney whose mental stability is at least questionable, a vindictive cabal of government bureaucrats intent on stealing property they have long coveted under color of “law,” and now a howling lynch mob of left-leaning Twitterers, who hate rural folks and especially ranchers who are professed Christians—these are the people who are celebrating the martyrdom of the Hammonds, denouncing them as “arsonists” and “welfare bums” out to steal public land. While the focus among vaunted “civil libertarians” is the resentencing and mandatory minimums, the fact is that the Hammonds should never have been prosecuted to begin with. Their long agony is a clear case of government persecution motivated by avarice and politics—for this is a warning to anyone who opposes the federal government’s campaign to retain and expand its ownership of huge swathes of Western land. Consider the scope of their Western empire: they currently control more than 80 percent of Nevada; approximately half of California, Utah, Oregon, Idaho, Arizona, and New Mexico; 42 percent of Wyoming; 36 percent of Colorado; and 30 percent of Washington and Montana. And, as the Hammond case dramatizes, they want more. The response of the defenders who are rallying around the Hammonds and demanding the privatization of the refuge is an act of civil disobedience that is both heroic and pathetic: the former because it limns what would have been the response of ordinary Americans in better days, and the latter because those days are long gone. I would not be in the least surprised if the feds go in there, guns blazing, while our urban elites and their lower-middle-class imitators dance around the resulting bonfire, just as they did during the Waco massacre. Justin Raimondo is editorial director of Antiwar.com. This post has been updated. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Anniemae - 2016-01-29 1:29 PM euchee - 2016-01-29 12:13 PM I'm not convinced that he would be alive if he layed down. So far to me it seems to be a set up amd they wanted him dead. I also have to wonder if he knew something that they didn't want him telling or if they figure with him dead they get his land. Just some thoughts that are going on in my head. The deceased rancher was from Arizona.
Who is also fighting for HIS land...or was, I should say. That's why he was involved in this...he was offering his support & knowledge to FELLOW ranchers. | |
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I Drink Whiskey in Boys Shorts
Posts: 1882
| Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM
As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost.
If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
If these had been some black punks, then there would already be riots over this incident. It has happened time and again.
I am not certain where I stand on this incident just yet, because there is no clear cut footage. Most of what I have seen is to hard to discern what is actually happening and there is no audio. I want to see actual crime scene photos, real video footage complete with audio. I would be willing to bet that we will never see it though. I won't even speculate as to what went down due to the crummy videos.
I have to ask though. Lavoy has been labeled as a true patriot. Could he perhaps have decided to sacrifice himself to get people to pay attention to what is happening in our country? Had he had laid down quietly for this incident and been taken into custody, what would have come of this situation? Not a whole lot! It would have been a flash in the pan. His death has sparked a lot of interest now. There are going to be a ton of questions that have to be answered and it has forced people to pay attention.
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | NJJ - 2016-01-29 10:21 AM
Katie's - 2016-01-29 12:07 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 9:24 AM As far as I can tell, this guy was shot by the LEO because it appeared that he might have been making a move toward a shoulder holdster. Here we have a man who, rightly or wrongly, declared that he preferred to go down in a hail of gunfire rather than go to jail....a man who was felt to be most likely armed.....a man who ran through a roadblock and nearly plunked a LEO while attempting to run through a second. He exits the vehicle, arms raised, surrounded by LEOs. He reaches down with his right hand toward his left shoulder/chest. The LEO has less than a second to react. Given these circumstances, it seems to me that the cop acted appropriately. I cant say that I blame him. He screwed around and he should have known that he was taking a risk. If I am surrounded by cops with drawn weapons and am painted with laser dots, I'm going to raise my hands and drop to my knees or lay flat on the ground.......unless I want to take a chance at getting killed. He screwed around, he gambled, and he lost. If this same scenario had taken place in South Chicago or some ghetto, and if the man had been some black punk, I doubt many people would find fault in the cops shooting him.
YES! Exactly this ^^^ Also, this group has elevated this situation so much so that the main reason they were here to ‘help’ has been completely lost in the shuffle. The men that are having to go BACK to jail after already serving their time – THAT is the sad injustice.
They were NOT there to "help" the Hammonds....they were there to further their OWN agenda with the government.....In fact, the Hammonds didn't want their "help".....see excerpt from story early on ..... IF they truly wanted to help the Hammonds, they would have been working to raise money so that they (Hammonds) don't have to sell their ranch.......But the Hammonds said they don't want help from Bundy's group. "Neither Ammon Bundy nor anyone within his group/organization speak for the Hammond family," the Hammonds' attorney, W. Alan Schroeder, wrote to Harney County Sheriff David Ward.
Are you really that gullible? I've been reading and viewing all the material I could about this and what caused it for several weeks now. It was raised in one of those many pieces of material that the "law" threatened the Hammonds with a "tough" time in prison and that something might happen to Susie Hammond. You don't think that is plausible? I think you're unwillingness to listen and accept that there could be something more to this is disappointing. There is 48596165651356516 pieces of material on federal government alphabet men's overreach and lawlessness online. It's not just this one incident or just the last few years. It's been growing and happening to many people over several decades. They are more emboldened than ever because of the current social situation. Nothing makes sense anymore. Down is up. Lie is truth. Black is white. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm |
I just watched that clip again. Everyone is horrified LaVoy almost hit a cop. But the cop was by the police vehicle until LaVoy went around that vehicle. Lavoy would not have seen him in time to react either to hit or not hit him. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM
Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome.
Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This is Deb...she's with Pete Santilli, who was arrested...he's the only media that has covered this from the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswKblD41ww | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | OregonBR - 2016-01-29 4:34 PM I just watched that clip again. Everyone is horrified LaVoy almost hit a cop. But the cop was by the police vehicle until LaVoy went around that vehicle. Lavoy would not have seen him in time to react either to hit or not hit him.
Watch it again...the cop jumped out in front of the vehicle. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | OregonBR - 2016-01-29 4:39 PM geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome. Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have.
I just pray that people have a set of balls doesn't let the government come and take their guns. I don't care to be a slave to anyone. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 3:42 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 4:34 PM I just watched that clip again. Everyone is horrified LaVoy almost hit a cop. But the cop was by the police vehicle until LaVoy went around that vehicle. Lavoy would not have seen him in time to react either to hit or not hit him.
Watch it again...the cop jumped out in front of the vehicle.
That's what I said. The cop jumped out from beside the cop vehicle. There was no intention by LaVoy to hit him. There was no time to even react. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | geronabean - 2016-01-29 3:50 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 5:39 PM
geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM
Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome.
Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have.
Lolol the Govt DOES want what I have. Ever heard of eminent domain? Well ive become a pro about it, yet Ive still not putt myself in unlawful situations.
You've fought them in the court? Because all these ranchers have tried to fight the government in the court. The deck is stacked against them. The judge, prosecuter and the BLM is all willing to say and do anything to take the land away. The Hammonds were using commonly used techniques to try to manage (stop from burning down their house and feed for the cattle) a fire that was not set by them. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | geronabean - 2016-01-29 3:50 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 5:39 PM
geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM
Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome.
Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have.
Lolol the Govt DOES want what I have. Ever heard of eminent domain? Well ive become a pro about it, yet Ive still not put myself in unlawful situations.
Just a thought. Because we live in a Republic and not a democracy, the individual rights are more important than the government or the group. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T424sWq1SkE | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video.
Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy?
The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM
Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy?
The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS.
So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-29 7:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie.
In this case you've got the dangerous douche bags confused! Lmao...seriously! | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-29 8:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie.
The FBI ambushed them. They were suppose to be going to a meeting and the sheriff they were suppose to be meeting wasn't where he was suppose to be. I find that a problem. How can anyone trust the government anymore? I know I don't. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | I don't blame the officers for this shooting. I blame the government for setting up the ambush and putting these officers in this position. Watching the video...I would have shot. If I was the authority in control...I would have left them alone as they would have got tired and left. Funny how all those Liberal Occupiers in New York and all those looting and destroying in Baltimore were left alone. What harm were they doing being in a closed refuge? Nothing. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 7:20 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie. In this case you've got the dangerous douche bags confused! Lmao...seriously!
Everyone's ignoring the fact that they were already 'under fire'. He was shot before his hands came down...they had been shot at at the FIRST stop! It was an ambush! I shouldn't say it, but, it'll come out anyhow...the citizens in Grant County put together the meeting because they are all sick & tired of living in fear from the fed and the corrupt bs, judge gasty, from harney county, set up the ambush...they were trying to 'contain' the anti-faux-government ans it was gaining momentum, kinda like Trump, so they set up the ambush and assassinated Lavoy...they only stopped there because nobody was shooting back! How could they call it a 'shoot out' as they originally claimed? We all better get a lot more paranoid...cuz it's fixing to hit. btw: the CITIZENS of Burns are having a protest next Monday and have asked the Oathkeepers, the lll Perceters and all patriotic Americans to come, unarmed, so they may have physical support when demanding the sheriff & the judge resign and that ALL federal law enforcement leave their town asap. THEY finally have the courage to take back their community...and as sad as it is, it took a life to get there. Why would we question that? | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-29 8:32 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-29 7:20 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:00 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-29 7:47 PM Bear - 2016-01-29 7:14 PM So, let's say we're cops in Houston, and a call goes out for help at a certain address because of an alleged attempted carjacking by a young black male with a medium build, wearing a dark hoodie. We approach the scene and see a young black male with pants down past his ass, wearing a dark green hoodie. He's running. Two other squad cars pull up from different directions and shine their lights on him. He realizes he's cornered. He is ordered to stop, drop to his knees, and keep his hands raised over his head. At first he complies. You and two other cops approach the gangsta with guns drawn. He reaches inside his hoodie abruptly. You shoot him dead. The incident is caught on the dashcam video. Who screwed up? What's the difference between this scenario and the shooting of LaVoy? The difference is a tragedy. LaVoy was fighting the government that has over stepped their boundaries and he was fighting for the life that has been his for years. The gangsta took what didn't belong to him in the first place. One was a patriot and the other a POS. So it's OK to protect yourself from a dangerous suspect you are trying to apprehend by shooting him.....only if he happens to be a douche bag gangsta from the ghetto? If he happens to be "fighting the good fight" in your eyes, the officer should just roll the dice, use restraint, and hope he isn't going for a gun? I'm very surprised to hear this from you, of all people, Kathie. In this case you've got the dangerous douche bags confused! Lmao...seriously! Everyone's ignoring the fact that they were already 'under fire'. He was shot before his hands came down...they had been shot at at the FIRST stop! It was an ambush!
I shouldn't say it, but, it'll come out anyhow...the citizens in Grant County put together the meeting because they are all sick & tired of living in fear from the fed and the corrupt bs, judge gasty, from harney county, set up the ambush...they were trying to 'contain' the anti-faux-government ans it was gaining momentum, kinda like Trump, so they set up the ambush and assassinated Lavoy...they only stopped there because nobody was shooting back! How could they call it a 'shoot out' as they originally claimed?
We all better get a lot more paranoid...cuz it's fixing to hit.
btw: the CITIZENS of Burns are having a protest next Monday and have asked the Oathkeepers, the lll Perceters and all patriotic Americans to come, unarmed, so they may have physical support when demanding the sheriff & the judge resign and that ALL federal law enforcement leave their town asap.
THEY finally have the courage to take back their community...and as sad as it is, it took a life to get there. Why would we question that?
I stayed open minded on this until there were more facts. The facts are in. Our government has more blood on its hands and I think they just opened a real can of worms they wished they hadn't. It's time all of those western states get back their land. I see Utah is trying to do it right now. I pray they succeed. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 320
Location: Dubuque,IA | I don't know how to copy and paste but there is a lot og info out there and articles fromn the new york times that htere is uranium under all that land and the Clintons are behind selling out a lot of rights to the russians and the government needs to get control of that land. Then it all makes sense!! The governemnt we currently have!!! | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | This sums it up...
(12651294_1505426829765387_1460055864090368993_n.jpg)
Attachments ---------------- 12651294_1505426829765387_1460055864090368993_n.jpg (34KB - 173 downloads)
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/
Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | raisinrox - 2016-01-29 8:49 PM I don't know how to copy and paste but there is a lot og info out there and articles fromn the new york times that htere is uranium under all that land and the Clintons are behind selling out a lot of rights to the russians and the government needs to get control of that land. Then it all makes sense!! The governemnt we currently have!!!
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_ | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | raisinrox - 2016-01-29 6:49 PM
I don't know how to copy and paste but there is a lot og info out there and articles fromn the new york times that htere is uranium under all that land and the Clintons are behind selling out a lot of rights to the russians and the government needs to get control of that land. Then it all makes sense!! The governemnt we currently have!!!
That's what we've been trying to say. Thanks. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | As far as the multiple gunshot wounds, time will tell. I didn't see any evidence of multiple gunshots. He reached for his left side with his right hand and dropped like a rock. It should be pretty easy to tell if he was shot while both hands were raised. If he only has the one fatal wound on autopsy, then the FBI's version is going to be pretty hard to disprove, particularly since he was packing a loaded weapon. Even if he has more than one wound, it will still be hard to disprove their version.
This Russia-Clinton connection is extremely interesting, particularly considering the source, and in light of the most recent revelations about the extremely top secret emails and the quarrel heating up between the State Dept and CIA. The Democrat power brokers must be feeling the heat, because it's very late to get a Hillary replacement. | |
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | You know that the Feds had plenty of video cameras on this shootout that were close. The video we have all seen is far away. We want to see and hear the close up version. You can not protest against the Federal Government and win. They may be able to have guns as the 2nd Amendment buy when you take over a facility with guns that is threatening to the Government. I can not believe that they just didn't have dogs take him down but I believe the Government were just planning on killing them. | |
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Cold hands and Warm Heart
Location: oklahoma | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-01-29 10:52 PM You know that the Feds had plenty of video cameras on this shootout that were close. The video we have all seen is far away. We want to see and hear the close up version. You can not protest against the Federal Government and win. They may be able to have guns as the 2nd Amendment buy when you take over a facility with guns that is threatening to the Government. I can not believe that they just didn't have dogs take him down but I believe the Government were just planning on killing them.
There's a zoomed in version on YouTube. | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | geronabean - 2016-01-29 5:50 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 5:39 PM geronabean - 2016-01-29 2:30 PM Moral of the story for us who dont even know the whole story (which would be pretty much everyone) dont put yourself in situations where you are a know law hater and breaker and expect a good outcome. Ya that's one way to react. Hide and hope that the government doesn't want what you have. Lolol the Govt DOES want what I have. Ever heard of eminent domain? Well ive become a pro about it, yet Ive still not put myself in unlawful situations.
Please don't compare what they were protesting to eminent domain. These people were tried in court on ridiculous charges, jailed....did their time.....and then retried for the same **** charges and sent back to prison. The BLM fights dirty, they don't seize your land, but they make your life hell. If you'd like to know the whole story on the Hammonds, I'd be happy to send it to you. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM
https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/
Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles.
Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM
OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM
https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/
Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles.
Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[...
If you go to Oregonlive.com and watch interviews with Finicum without his coat on, you will see he wears a shoulder holster, which of course would mean his loaded weapon would be on his left side where he could reach it with his right hand. The gun in his "pocket" is most certainly a mischaracterization of where his pistol was actually located. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer.
Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Im going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow. https://www.facebook.com/steve.worthington.5/videos/1107996929231308/?fref=nf | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol. It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about... It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional. It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money... We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap... | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement.
It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all. | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24950
Location: WYOMING | Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM
I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement.
It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed.
Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:41 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[... If you go to Oregonlive.com and watch interviews with Finicum without his coat on, you will see he wears a shoulder holster, which of course would mean his loaded weapon would be on his left side where he could reach it with his right hand. The gun in his "pocket" is most certainly a mischaracterization of where his pistol was actually located.
As much as I hate to agree with Finney....lol.....I agree that he was reaching under the left side of his coat....and YES....I have watched and looked at every darn video (enhanced, etc).....
What the government is doing is wrong but what these men did was wrong TOO ! ! ! And it ended up with one of them being killed! | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all.
You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it. | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won?
You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:19 AM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all.
You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it.
Then, of course, there is this looming out there, and it's possible relationship to recent events. Far fetched? Maybe. Still, something to ponder. How is this related to Uranium? This story was originally from none other than the New York Times. Go figure.
http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/23/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as... | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol. It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about... It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional. It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money... We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it.
It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else.
Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis). | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:30 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol.
It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about...
It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional.
It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money...
We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it. It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else. Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis ).
Do your research - the Hammonds DID take the plea deal!!! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Please please watch this before it's removed...again. Who's the Virus? I'm going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for.
THIS is what it's about...nothing else. Please watch it...30 minutes out of your life, it will shed light on the fight! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 When we fall victim to lies it hurts everyone...most of this land out here that's considered 'public' is not habitable, can't be 'developed, mother nature made sure of that! | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:30 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol.
It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about...
It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional.
It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money...
We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it. It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else. Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis ).
Are the 'Politicans' highlighted not part of Government? | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| We all digress. I have to go feed now, but I think people should look seriously at the rise of militia groups in this country. They profess a willingness to kill or be killed. It's dangerous, and certainly does not garner any sympathy from "the masses" for ranchers, who up until now have had some kind of mystic and romantic appeal in an old west kind of way. You can see by the absence of conservative media and political attention this time around that the armed westerners fighting for their constitutional right from the big bad government is so yesterday for them. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:19 AM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all.
You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it.
WHY were they charged under a terrorist law? That question in and of it self has yet to be answered satisfactorily. Especially in light of the actions of The BLM in the same area! | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM
The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer.
Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds.
Finney, you claim to be educated and intelligent......................Please describe the original purpose of 'The Militia'. Historically speaking of course. If you can. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:41 AM We all digress. I have to go feed now, but I think people should look seriously at the rise of militia groups in this country. They profess a willingness to kill or be killed. It's dangerous, and certainly does not garner any sympathy from "the masses" for ranchers, who up until now have had some kind of mystic and romantic appeal in an old west kind of way. You can see by the absence of conservative media and political attention this time around that the armed westerners fighting for their constitutional right from the big bad government is so yesterday for them.
The 'mystic appeal' is a live and well! Just like with the natives...lol. I can attest to that being in the hospitality industry. Aside from that...it's not true that the western legislators have abandoned this, part of the problem is that we don't have the 'voice' in congress because we don't have the population! BECAUSE we can't 'grow' because the fed is claiming our land because...ugh. The willingness to die is simple...it's not that anyone wants to die...it's that many, including me, feel that we'd rather die standing than on our knees begging. What does it teach our children if we're cowards? What happens when you're old and your grandchildren ask you about the stories of freedom while you're standing in the soup line and then ask why you laid down and didn't protect it for them? "Give me liberty or give me death" is not a terrorist thought.
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:41 AM NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
You can quit posting the d*mn video....I HAVE watched it......and it has nothing to do with my statement about sympathy OR what those men could have expected....... | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24950
Location: WYOMING | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM
NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking.
Its unfair.
Its maddening.
Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr.
You can not unlawfully fight for what is right.
The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive.
Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting.
Edited by geronabean 2016-01-30 10:12 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| MS2011 - 2016-01-30 9:32 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:30 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:01 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. I'm the 1st one who 'liked' this...lol.
It became obvious during this occupation that the Hammonds are NOT the only victims that people care about...
It's a lot more complicated than what you summarized...they were charged as 'terrorists', yet, the BLM has destroyed much more land, cattle and homes with 'accidental' fires and aren't held to the same standard, kinda like the EPA/mine spill that happened in Colorado last year...there's no accountability for them, but, they use these laws in 'their' courts that oppress the people and provide for a massive land grab that is not constitutional.
It's a very dangerous road we're traveling...mainly because 'he who controls the land' controls the masses. Our food, our resources...jobs, money...
We need to get rid of mandatory minimums asap...
Granted the mine fiasco was bad, but rather than lay all the blame on the person who was cleaning it up, certainly some of the blame should be laid at the doorstep of the millionaires who polluted then cut and run when the profit gave out, and the politicians who gave them free rein to do it. It's tempting for people to blame "the government" for all their problems. It's amazing if you think long enough how you can justify any action and lay blame on somebody else. Isn't the conservatives mantra "Personal Responsibility"? That is until it's personal and their responsibility (see Flint, MI water crisis ).
Do your research - the Hammonds DID take the plea deal!!!
Sorry for the length of this.
FindLawCaselawUnited StatesUS 9th Cir.UNITED STATES v. HAMMOND
UNITED STATES v. HAMMOND
ResetAAFont size:Print 69
United States Court of Appeals,Ninth Circuit.
UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff–Appellant, v. Steven Dwight HAMMOND, Defendant–Appellee.
United States of America, Plaintiff–Appellant, v. Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr., Defendant–Appellee.
Nos. 12–30337, 12–30339.
Decided: February 7, 2014
Before RICHARD C. TALLMAN and CARLOS T. BEA, Circuit Judges, and STEPHENJ. MURPHY, III, District Judge.** Kelly A. Zusman, Assistant United States Attorney; S. Amanda Marshall, United States Attorney, District of Oregon, Portland, OR, for Plaintiff–Appellant. Lawrence H. Matasar, Lawrence Matasar, P.C., Portland, OR, for Defendant–Appellee Steven Dwight Hammond. Marc D. Blackman and Kendra M. Matthews, Ransom & Blackman, LLP, for Defendant–Appellee Dwight Lincoln Hammond, Jr.
OPINION
The government appeals the sentences of Steven and Dwight Hammond, whom a jury convicted of maliciously damaging the real property of the United States by fire, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 844(f)(1). The convictions carried minimum sentences of five years of imprisonment, but citing Eighth Amendment concerns, the district court sentenced Steven to only twelve months and one day of imprisonment and Dwight to only three months of imprisonment. Because the sentences were illegal and the government did not waive its right to appeal them, we vacate the sentences and remand for resentencing.
I. Background
The Hammonds have long ranched private and public land in Eastern Oregon. Although they lease public land for grazing, the Hammonds are not permitted to burn it without prior authorization from the Bureau of Land Management. Government employees reminded Steven of this restriction in 1999 after he started a fire that escaped onto public land.
But in September 2001, the Hammonds again set a fire on their property that spread to nearby public land. Although the Hammonds claimed that the fire was designed to burn off invasive species on their property, a teenage relative of theirs testified that Steven had instructed him to drop lit matches on the ground so as to “light up the whole country on fire.” And the teenager did just that. The resulting flames, which were eight to ten feet high, spread quickly and forced the teenager to shelter in a creek. The fire ultimately consumed 139 acres of public land and took the acreage out of production for two growing seasons.
In August 2006, a lightning storm kindled several fires near where the Hammonds grew their winter feed. Steven responded by attempting back burns near the boundary of his land. Although a burn ban was in effect, Steven did not seek a waiver. His fires burned about an acre of public land.
The government ultimately prosecuted the Hammonds on charges related to these and other fires. After trial, the jury deliberated several hours and returned a partial verdict. The jury convicted Steven of two counts and Dwight of one count of maliciously damaging the real property of the United States by fire, in violation of 18 U .S.C. § 844(f)(1), based on their respective roles in the September 2001 and August 2006 fires. The jury also acquitted the Hammonds of some charges and failed to reach a verdict on others, including conspiracy charges brought against Steven and Dwight. The judge then instructed the jury to continue deliberating.
While the jury deliberated on the remaining charges, the parties reached an oral agreement and presented it to the court.1 The government told the court that the Hammonds had agreed to “waive their appeal rights”—except with respect to ineffective assistance of counsel claims—“and accept the verdicts as they've been returned thus far by the jury.” In return, the government promised to “recommend” that Steven's sentences run concurrently and agreed that the Hammonds “should remain released pending the court's sentencing decision.”
The Hammonds agreed with the government's summary of the plea agreement. Their attorneys also added that the Hammonds wanted the “case to be over” and hoped to “bring th[e] matter to a close.” According to the defense, the “idea” of the plea agreement was that the case would “be done with at the sentencing” and that the “parties would accept · the sentence that's imposed.” The district court then accepted the plea agreement and dismissed the remaining charges.
At sentencing, the court found that the guidelines range for Steven was 8 to 14 months and for Dwight was 0 to 6 months. Yet their convictions carried five-year minimum terms of imprisonment. See 18 U.S.C. § 844(f)(1). The government accordingly recommended five-year sentences of imprisonment and argued—both in its sentencing memorandum and at sentencing—that the court lacked discretion to impose lesser sentences.
The court, however, concluded that the Eighth Amendment required deviation from the statutory minimum. Observing that Congress probably had not intended for the sentence to cover fires in “the wilderness,” the court reasoned that five-year sentences would be grossly disproportionate to the severity of the Hammonds' offenses. The court then sentenced Steven to two concurrent terms of twelve months and one day of imprisonment and Dwight to three months of imprisonment.
II. Standard of Review
We review both a waiver of appeal and the legality of a sentence de novo. See United States v. Bibler, 495 F.3d 621, 623 (9th Cir .2007) (waiver of appeal); United States v. Dunn, 946 F.2d 615, 619 (9th Cir.1991) (legality of a sentence).
III. Discussion
A. Waiver
A threshold issue is whether the government waived its right to appeal the Hammonds' sentences in the plea agreement or otherwise failed to preserve its objection. We find no grounds for dismissing the appeal.
The Hammonds first argue that the government waived its right to appeal in the plea agreement. Because a plea agreement is partly contractual in nature, we interpret it from the perspective of a reasonable defendant. See United States v. De la Fuente, 8 F.3d 1333, 1337–38 (9th Cir.1993). But there is no ambiguity here to interpret. A reasonable defendant would expect that the absence of any statements on the government's right to appeal simply means that no waiver was contemplated. See United States v. Anderson, 921 F.2d 335, 337–38 (1st Cir.1990).
The Hammonds respond by arguing that the statements of defense counsel show that an all-around waiver of appellate rights was the sine qua non of the plea agreement. The record, however, belies that assertion. The statements made by defense counsel just before the judge accepted the plea agreement underscore that all parties sought to resolve the case swiftly, but finality was not the only benefit supporting the plea agreement. Other benefits included favorable recommendations from the government and the dismissal of charges. We thus cannot reasonably read defense counsels' references to finality as meaning that no party could take an appeal.
Assuming then that the plea agreement is silent on the government's right of appeal, the Hammonds urge us to imply a waiver into the plea agreement. We have never before done so. But relying on United States v. Guevara, 941 F.2d 1299 (4th Cir.1991), the Hammonds argue that construing the government's silence as an implied waiver will promote fairness and finality. We reject that position.
The principles governing the formation and interpretation of plea agreements leave no room for implied waivers. Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 11, not the common law of contracts, governs the making of plea agreements. See United States v. Escamilla, 975 F.2d 568, 571 n.3 (9th Cir.1992); United States v. Partida–Parra, 859 F.2d 629, 634 (9th 1988). Although Rule 11 gives courts discretion to accept or reject a plea agreement, it does not authorize courts to remake a plea agreement or imply terms into one. See United States v. Benchimol, 471 U.S. 453, 455 (1985) (per curiam) (“Rule 11[ ] · speaks in terms of what the parties in fact agree to, and does not suggest that such implied-in-law terms as were read into this agreement by the Court of Appeals have any place under the rule.”); United States v. Stevens, 548 F.2d 1360, 1362 (9th Cir.1977) (observing that Congress rejected a version of Rule 11 that would have allowed a court to modify a plea agreement in favor of the defendant). We accordingly “enforce the literal terms” of a plea agreement, construing only ambiguous language in the defendant's favor. United States v. Franco–Lopez, 312 F.3d 984, 989 (9th Cir.2002); see also United States v. Johnson, 187 F.3d 1129, 1134–35 (9th Cir.1999). These principles preclude us from implying a waiver where none exists.
Moreover, nothing in the nature of plea agreements requires that each promise must be “matched against a mutual and ‘similar’ promise by the other side.” United States v. Hare, 269 F.3d 859, 861 (7th Cir.2001). To be sure, the idea behind a plea agreement is that each side waives certain rights to obtain some benefit. See Partida–Parra, 859 F.2d at 633. But there are ample reasons that a defendant might enter a plea agreement short of extinguishing the government's right to appeal, including the possibility of a lower sentence and the dismissal of other charges. Hare, 269 F.3d at 861; cf. Brady v. United States, 397 U.S. 742, 752 (1970) (listing possible reasons for entering a plea). For example, the Hammonds negotiated for favorable recommendations from the government and the dismissal of charges. Such benefits are consideration enough to support a plea agreement. See Hare, 269 F.3d at 861–62.
Finally, contrary to the Hammonds' assertion, the record leaves no doubt that the government preserved the objection to the sentences that it raises on appeal. Nowhere did the government make a “straightforward” concession. United States v. Bentson, 947 F.2d 1353, 1356 (9th Cir.1991). Nor did the government fail to give the district court an opportunity to address the argument it raises on appeal. See United States v. Grissom, 525 F.3d 691, 694–95 (9th Cir.2008). In its sentencing memorandum and at sentencing, the government argued that the trial judge lacked discretion to deviate from the statutory minimum. The government thus preserved its objection, and we may hear its appeal.
B. Sentences
Turning now to the merits, we hold that the district court illegally sentenced the Hammonds to terms of imprisonment less than the statutory minimum. A minimum sentence mandated by statute is not a suggestion that courts have discretion to disregard. See United States v. Wipf, 620 F.3d 1168, 1169–70 (9th Cir.2010). The court below was bound to sentence the Hammonds to five-year terms of imprisonment. See 18 U.S.C. 844(f)(1). Although the district court attempted to justify lesser sentences on Eighth Amendment grounds, sentencing the Hammonds to five years of imprisonment would not have been unconstitutional.
Rather than categorically challenge five-year sentences for arson, the Hammonds argue that the sentences would be constitutionally disproportionate “under the unique facts and circumstances of this case.” We assess this type of Eighth Amendment challenge by “compar[ing] the gravity of the offense to the severity of the sentence.” United States v. Williams, 636 F .3d 1229, 1232 (9th Cir.2011) (citing Graham v. Florida, 560 U.S. 48, 60 (2010)). Only in the “rare case in which this threshold comparison leads to an inference of gross disproportionality,” do we then “compare the defendant's sentence with the sentences received by other offenders in the same jurisdiction and with the sentences imposed for the same crime in other jurisdictions.” Graham, 560 U.S. at 60 (internal citations and quotation marks omitted).
Here, we need not progress beyond the first step. Congress has “broad authority” to determine the appropriate sentence for a crime and may justifiably consider arson, regardless of where it occurs, to be a serious crime. Solem v. Helm, 463 U.S. 277, 290 (1983). Even a fire in a remote area has the potential to spread to more populated areas, threaten local property and residents, or endanger the firefighters called to battle the blaze. The September 2001 fire here, which nearly burned a teenager and damaged grazing land, illustrates this very point.
Given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense. The Supreme Court has upheld far tougher sentences for less serious or, at the very least, comparable offenses. See Lockyer v. Andrade, 538 U.S. 63 (2003) (upholding a sentence of fifty years to life under California's three-strikes law for stealing nine videotapes); Ewing v. California, 538 U.S. 11 (2003) (upholding a sentence of twenty-five years to life under California's three-strikes law for the theft of three golf clubs); Hutto v. Davis, 454 U.S. 370 (1982) (per curiam) (upholding a forty-year sentence for possession of nine ounces of marijuana with the intent to distribute); Rummel v. Estelle, 445 U.S. 263 (1980) (upholding a life sentence under Texas's recidivist statute for obtaining $120.75 by false pretenses). And we and other courts have done the same. See, e.g., United States v. Tolliver, 730 F.3d 1216, 1230–32 (10th Cir.2013) (upholding a 430–month sentence for using arson in the commission of a felony); United States v. Major, 676 F.3d 803, 812 (9th Cir.2012) (upholding a 750–year sentence for offenses under 18 U.S.C. § 924(c)), cert. denied, 133 S.Ct. 280; United States v. Meiners, 485 F.3d 1211, 1212–13 (9th Cir.2007) (per curiam) (upholding a fifteen-year sentence for advertising child pornography); United States v. Uphoff, 232 F.3d 624, 625–26 (8th Cir.2000) (upholding a five-year sentence for arson of a building).
Because the district court erred by sentencing the Hammonds to terms of imprisonment less than the statutory minimum, we vacate the sentences and remand for resentencing in compliance with the law.
VACATED AND REMANDED.
FOOTNOTES
1. Although the Hammonds did not enter guilty pleas, the Hammonds agreed not to contest the jury verdicts in exchange for the government moving to dismiss other charges. The resulting posture is the same as that following a plea agreement. We thus will refer to the oral agreement here as a plea agreement and apply to it the law governing plea agreements.
MURPHY, District Judge:
- See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1656853.html#sthash.Ksmwy... | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Finney, are You aware that 'the teenager' referenced in your post was discredited? For being mentally challenged?
And why were The Hammonds charged with Terrorism to begin with? Would you care to answer that? | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:09 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM
NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking.
Its unfair.
Its maddening.
Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr.
You can not unlawfully fight for what is right.
The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive.
Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting.
Question: Do morals trump legality? I.E. Laws? Are Laws supposed to be moral? | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | NJJ - 2016-01-30 9:04 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:41 AM NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
You can quit posting the d*mn video....I HAVE watched it......and it has nothing to do with my statement about sympathy OR what those men could have expected.......
Lmao...settle down! I'm quite certain these men aren't after 'sympathy'...not really the 'way they roll'. See, there's nothing so 'mystic or romantic' about cowboys...unless you consider honesty, integrity and love of the land a 'mystic, romantic' quality. They knew what they were/are up against, hence arming themselves! Gotta have that 2nd Amendment Right to Protect 1st, ya know? It will be whatever it will be and we can't blame these guys for not trying...just the 'masses' for not 'getting it'.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 962
| foundation horse - 2016-01-30 10:18 AM
Finney, are You aware that 'the teenager' referenced in your post was discredited? For being mentally challenged?
And why were The Hammonds charged with Terrorism to begin with? Would you care to answer that?
I read a reason but without taking time to look it up I can't give you a link. But when I read the piece to begin with, I remember thinking in my own mind that they probably charged them with that for one of two reasons, either they were tired of the arguments and threats that the article cited or they never wanted them to go to jail in the first place but wanted them to plea out if they knew they knew the would face five years jail time, or a combination of both. I'm not a lawyer or a mind reader so I don't know what either party was thinking. | |
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Queen Bean of Ponyland
Posts: 24950
Location: WYOMING | foundation horse - 2016-01-30 11:20 AM
geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:09 AM
musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM
NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well.
Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking.
Its unfair.
Its maddening.
Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr.
You can not unlawfully fight for what is right.
The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive.
Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting.
Question: Do morals trump legality? I.E. Laws? Are Laws supposed to be moral?
Do I think its moral that a private company can take my land for their personal gain? No! But due to a pre WW 2 law its is legal for them to do so.
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[...
This is th epoint I was trying to make in my previous post. We do not know what was going on at ground level. We need to hear the video and see it close up. Did law enforcement tell him to drop his weapon? We don't know. What were they saying to him? What was he sayiong to them? Why did they not have the dogs take him down? They knew he was a constitutional student and was keeping the Feds from taking land and water. We need to see close up video and audio! | |
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Fact Checker
Posts: 16569
Location: Displaced Iowegian | geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:45 AM foundation horse - 2016-01-30 11:20 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 10:09 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:41 AM NJJ - 2016-01-30 8:27 AM geronabean - 2016-01-30 9:14 AM Bear - 2016-01-30 10:04 AM I'll tell you one thing. If you are going to act all militant and badass and insinuate you would rather go down in a blaze of glory than go to jail, and you get cornered by LEOs, following a dangerous high speed chase, unless you want to follow through with your expressed desire to die in a blaze of glory, you'd better keep your arms up. Those cops didn't have time to analyze the probability of a piece in his pocket, a holster on his hip, an itch in his armpit, a shoulder holster, or gas pains. The minute he dropped his hand, he embarked on a game of Russian Roulette, with only one empty chamber. Sounds like he was a good man who used terrible judgement. It doesn't matter why he dropped his hand and reached.....the moment he did, his fate was sealed. Exactly. And now the govt doesnt have to deal with him anymore and his family doesnt have him anymore. Who just won? You probably aren't going to get much sympathy from the masses in the U.S .... because they don't feel that it affects ..... these men had to know that if you go armed and try to seize federal property that it wasn't going to end well. Please watch this...I'm going to share it and share it...watch to the end. Please!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Its heartbreaking. Its unfair. Its maddening. Being a marytr changes nothing. Most movements die with the marytr. You can not unlawfully fight for what is right. The ones who lost are his family and any change he could have spearheaded by staying alive. Most people will only know him thru his unlawful occupation and lawful police shooting. Question: Do morals trump legality? I.E. Laws? Are Laws supposed to be moral? Do I think its moral that a private company can take my land for their personal gain? No! But due to a pre WW 2 law its is legal for them to do so.
A little off the track ...... but those on the Trump Band Wagon should read this from his interview with Fox......If Trump wants to build a hotel in your back yard....he thinks that he should be able to TAKE your back yard to make it happen......... http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/10/06/trump-eminent-domain-even-for-private-projects-is-wonderful-thing-youre-not-taking-property/ | |
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:34 AM Please please watch this before it's removed...again.
Who's the Virus?
I'm going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
Thanks for posting this video! | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 8:53 AM Im going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow.
https://www.facebook.com/steve.worthington.5/videos/1107996929231308/?fref=nf
You found it!! YAY!! I had posted that video a few days ago and right after he was shot, it was gone!! Thankyou for finding and sharing it!! | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 10:54 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 8:53 AM Im going to guess that no matter what you 'think' you think, you'll enjoy this video...forget that this man was just killed, watch it, get a sense of who he was and what he was doing...if you still consider him a 'virus' (as the democrat representatives in Oregon are calling him) then this discussion is mute, whether he was 'murdered' doesn't even matter...because our country isn't worth dying for any longer anyhow. https://www.facebook.com/steve.worthington.5/videos/1107996929231308/?fref=nf You found it!! YAY!! I had posted that video a few days ago and right after he was shot, it was gone!! Thankyou for finding and sharing it!! That was the one...I had clicked on it and there wasn't anything there...hmmm. I guess it keeps getting deleted, Idk how to download it to my computer, but, evidently others do so it keeps showing up here and there. Here's the youtube version that you can download it from (however, I was told to stop posting that ***mn video...lol): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6VQKgYjJno
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-30 12:15 PM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | If anyones interested, this is a meeting in Utah with the natural Resources Committee on the 22nd...I'm sharing this because Finney (?) said the legislators had 'moved on' from these issues...simply not true! I know some of these people personally and they are fighting as hard as they can to save our country! http://southernutahlive.com/video/view/Natural-Resources-Public-Hearing-2016-01-22 | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-30 9:29 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 9:19 AM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 9:06 AM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:52 AM The Hammonds were found guilty on two charges which carried a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. A judge took it upon himself to decrease the sentence because he did not think the punishment fit the crime, the sentence was appealed not re-tried, and the Hammonds were ordered back to jail to complete the original minimum sentence that they received when convicted. They now have a clemency request filed and don't want the militia screwing it up. They should have taken the plea deal that was offered to them if they didn't want to take the risk of going to jail. Maybe they should have got a better lawyer. Thousands of people are in jail in the US on mandatory minimums that don't fit the crime, and you guys need to ask yourself if you care about them, or just the Hammonds. They were charged and tried under a Terrorist law. Which carried a min. 5 year sentence. They were not charged and tried under a law for burning 100 some odd acres. Which was set as a back burn to protect their own ranch land that drifted onto BLM land.Yet, the BLM can burn hundreds of thousands of acres, plus cattle and homes and are not accountable at all. You are right, they were tried under the terrorist law, but not before they were offered a plea deal that would have let them off with fines and probation. They chose a trial by their peers, which is how we do it in this country. Just like Finicum, they chose thir own path, and now they have to live with it. Then, of course, there is this looming out there, and it's possible relationship to recent events. Far fetched? Maybe. Still, something to ponder. How is this related to Uranium? This story was originally from none other than the New York Times. Go figure. http://www.cnbc.com/2015/04/23/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as...
They have found Uranium deposits on the Hammond Ranch and the BLM land they have rights to. They want that land! So they fined them $400,000 and put them in jail. Of course the govt. is first in line for their deeded ranch as "payment" for their hefty fines. Hard to pay the fines and maintane the ranch with the 2 men in prison. | |
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To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Edited by Vickie 2016-01-30 1:51 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:49 PM
Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Get you some cows, and a BLM lease. Nothing is stopping you. Run em on it for your 3 month period, and then ride in and bring em back. Shouldn't be a problem. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:49 PM Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Then why is the BLM involved instead of The National Park Service? And just how do Americans own all this 'Federal Land'? Also, are You familar with the original General Land Office and its stated purpose. (Which was the fore runner to The BLM and National Forest Service). | |
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Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:49 PM Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
They were not protesting land that the BLM currently owns. The BLM is prosecuting private landowners and taking their land. The Hammond ranch is private property! (At least it is for now) | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM
While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
In LaVoy's own words. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Vickie - 2016-01-30 11:49 AM
Seriously? Can you hear yourselves? The man said he would never be taken alive. That land is a national park, it belongs to all of us. Why do you support giving it to private industry for free? Because that is what these few so called ranchers want. Real men work for what they want, these guys want to take it from all of us.
Hammonds bought their ranch. Many other ranchers bought the land they claim. The BLM has voided their rights.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/what-is-the-oregon-...
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To the Left
Posts: 1865
Location: Florida | Why would I get a BLM lease? I own my land. I don't want governent welfare, including rediculously cheap leases.
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 9:58 AM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 8:41 AM We all digress. I have to go feed now, but I think people should look seriously at the rise of militia groups in this country. They profess a willingness to kill or be killed. It's dangerous, and certainly does not garner any sympathy from "the masses" for ranchers, who up until now have had some kind of mystic and romantic appeal in an old west kind of way. You can see by the absence of conservative media and political attention this time around that the armed westerners fighting for their constitutional right from the big bad government is so yesterday for them.
The 'mystic appeal' is a live and well! Just like with the natives...lol. I can attest to that being in the hospitality industry. Aside from that...it's not true that the western legislators have abandoned this, part of the problem is that we don't have the 'voice' in congress because we don't have the population! BECAUSE we can't 'grow' because the fed is claiming our land because...ugh. The willingness to die is simple...it's not that anyone wants to die...it's that many, including me, feel that we'd rather die standing than on our knees begging. What does it teach our children if we're cowards? What happens when you're old and your grandchildren ask you about the stories of freedom while you're standing in the soup line and then ask why you laid down and didn't protect it for them? "Give me liberty or give me death" is not a terrorist thought.
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Douglas J Gordon - 2016-01-30 8:46 AM
OregonBR - 2016-01-30 12:03 AM OregonBR - 2016-01-29 6:56 PM https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/ Enhanced video of the final moments of LaVoy Finicum's life. He put BOTH hands to his left hip. Why would a right handed man go to his left hip with both hands to draw a weapon they said was in his pocket? And that he never drew out of said pocket? Eyewitness account have him being shot repeatedly. You can see one time shot in the back and how many are from other angles. Please actually LOOK at the links and videos being supplied right there for you? This is the final few moments of LaVoy's life. Have you ever tried to reach into your left jacket pocket with your right hand? Can't be done. https://www.oathkeepers.org/video-of-lavoy-tinicums-death-released/[...
This is th epoint I was trying to make in my previous post. We do not know what was going on at ground level. We need to hear the video and see it close up. Did law enforcement tell him to drop his weapon? We don't know. What were they saying to him? What was he sayiong to them? Why did they not have the dogs take him down? They knew he was a constitutional student and was keeping the Feds from taking land and water. We need to see close up video and audio!
They didn't release any sound. They have body cam video of this. We KNOW they do. Will they ever release them? KrisAnne Hall thinks they won't based on the patriot act. They have characterized these men as "terrorists" from the get-go. So they would be able to use the patriot act to not release the the sound and video from the body cams. Edited by OregonBR 2016-01-30 4:01 PM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Vickie - 2016-01-30 1:42 PM
Why would I get a BLM lease? I own my land. I don't want governent welfare, including rediculously cheap leases.
Do you not get it? They owned their ranch too. Yet they are being bullied by the BLM any way they can to get them to leave it. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Vickie - 2016-01-30 3:42 PM
Why would I get a BLM lease? I own my land. I don't want governent welfare, including rediculously cheap leases.
Again, why did The National Park Service get involved instead of The BLM with the claim of a National Park? Please respond. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM
While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
In LaVoy's own words.
He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr.
Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1.) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2.) members of the U.S. Congress, 3.) Supreme Court Justices, 4.) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5.) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years. | |
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Semper Fi
Location: North Texas | Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM
OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM
FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM
While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind.
He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation.
The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now.
But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions.
My advice is be careful what you wish for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4
In LaVoy's own words.
He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr.
Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I believe a Convention of States would answer the question of Constitutional Amendment requirements...................... | |
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Miracle in the Making
Posts: 4013
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the biggest problem is 1 he was middle age white dude not burning and looting had pis pants where they belonged
now is he had been black and throw gas bomb we would know everything | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in! ? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gioIUdfAiTk | |
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint |
Wow, good man fighting against a giant. He is gone so who will continue the fight? | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 5:03 PM
Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in! ? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot.
This is where I think a REAL president would step up to the podium and start to publicly address this matter. Has Obama said anything about this? He is supposed to be the president of ALL the people....not just those who agree with his tyranny and socialist agenda. This is the President's opportunity to be a leader and a healer of wounds. This won't go away. People want an explanation. They want a President who will uphold his solemn oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." They want definitive answers.
Our president is a coward. He addresses the police shooting of the thug in Oregon, and Treyvon Martin, but what does he have to say about this? Maybe he's said something....I'm not aware of it if he has. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bear - 2016-01-30 7:30 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 5:03 PM Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in!
? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot.
This is where I think a REAL president would step up to the podium and start to publicly address this matter. Has Obama said anything about this? He is supposed to be the president of ALL the people....not just those who agree with his tyranny and socialist agenda. This is the President's opportunity to be a leader and a healer of wounds. This won't go away. People want an explanation. They want a President who will uphold his solemn oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." They want definitive answers. Our president is a coward. He addresses the police shooting of the thug in Oregon, and Treyvon Martin, but what does he have to say about this? Maybe he's said something....I'm not aware of it if he has.
If people would actually read this article they would then understand what is going on and how the government is trying to basically steal the Hammond's privately owned ranch. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Here is just a taste of the BLM's tactics to force ranchers out. https://www.facebook.com/AmericanLandsCouncil/videos/964207073659086... | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | The BLM is trying to take a ranchers land right now along the Red River in Texas. This is happening all over...Not just in Nevada, Oregon and Arizona.
The government wants the Hammond's privately owned ranch. They are the last to hold out in that area.
Edited by Nevertooold 2016-01-30 10:05 PM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-30 3:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I do not support a convention of states...that, to me, is an extemely dangerous place to go. What part of the constitution do you want to 'change, tweek, delete or add to'? We'e so divided right now taht it would be a terrible mistake. We DO have the option of nullification...I don't think anyone really knows what to do at this point, the power has shifted over the years and we have some brilliant minds wroking on it, however, they're trying to do it through the courts, which isn't going to work either...that's why I have supported real action, like what happened in Burns...the ''''''''''''''stake' was driven long ago...in 1776...we don't need to drive a 'new' stake. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | We need to push to have the BLM investigated. LaVoy had been battling with them over many issues, but also his water. They kept sabatoging his water, filling his lines with concrete, turning it off, ect. ect. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-30 6:30 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-30 5:03 PM Bear - 2016-01-30 4:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I would love that to happen!! I would love the BLM to be investigated!! I dont however think we need any constitutional ammendments. I believe we need the rogue agency's and congress to be held to the Constitution and reined in!
? Also, just a side note..Many are saying LaVoy was shot first and that is why he reached down. He was reaching to where he was shot.
This is where I think a REAL president would step up to the podium and start to publicly address this matter. Has Obama said anything about this? He is supposed to be the president of ALL the people....not just those who agree with his tyranny and socialist agenda. This is the President's opportunity to be a leader and a healer of wounds. This won't go away. People want an explanation. They want a President who will uphold his solemn oath to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution." They want definitive answers. Our president is a coward. He addresses the police shooting of the thug in Oregon, and Treyvon Martin, but what does he have to say about this? Maybe he's said something....I'm not aware of it if he has.
Obama is threatening executive action if the states don't comply with what the environmentalists and blm want....as in National Monument designations. A fedral land grab. The threat to our nation is very very real. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Live stream from Deb and 'Orange Hat' in Burns...this was 3 hours ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx2eWenLx8
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-30 10:20 PM
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:11 PM
Bear - 2016-01-30 3:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years.
I do not support a convention of states...that, to me, is an extemely dangerous place to go. What part of the constitution do you want to 'change, tweek, delete or add to'? We'e so divided right now taht it would be a terrible mistake. We DO have the option of nullification...I don't think anyone really knows what to do at this point, the power has shifted over the years and we have some brilliant minds wroking on it, however, they're trying to do it through the courts, which isn't going to work either...that's why I have supported real action, like what happened in Burns...the ''''''''''''''stake' was driven long ago...in 1776...we don't need to drive a 'new' stake.
Go back and read what I wrote again before reacting. I didn't say I want a convention of states. I suggested a public forum and I stated why this would be a good thing. Right now, thanks to the internet cesspool, we have an endless supply of so-called information, and no way of determining what is truthful, factual, and reliable.
And yes, thankfully, we do have a way to "change, tweet, delete, or add to" the Constitution. We have used it since it's inception. It's called a Constitutional Ammendment. It's a very difficult undertaking, but it's been done, and perhaps some Constitutional Ammendment will provide the solution to the tyranny and government land grabbing. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 8:12 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-30 10:11 PM Bear - 2016-01-30 3:41 PM OregonBR - 2016-01-30 3:25 PM FinneyQuarterHorses - 2016-01-30 7:14 AM While at the vet yesterday, got to talking with the horseshoer there about this deal and government ownership of land. This is kind of eye opening about how people who don't really understand how things work can get things screwed up in their mind. He told me a story about how he used to go camping on BLM land between Cheyenne and Laramie with his horse and just have a real good time. Then, the Obama Administration sold off that land to two Denver millionaires and now they won't let anybody use that stuff anymore, and it was all Obama's fault that he couldn't have fun out there anymore. When I brought up the fact that that was exactly what the ranchers and militiamen (that he sympathizes with) wanted to happen, turning federal land that everybody could use into private or state run, he dropped the conversation. The ironic and sad part of the situation is that the people who are screaming the loudest about taking federal ground away from BLM and Forest Service control, are the ones that would be hurt the most by private or state ownership. If the land was sold, no small time rancher would be able to afford it, it would go to people like the Koch Brothers who own the Matador Ranch in Montana (300,000 plus acres and six federal allotments). If the state owns it, it would be mined and drilled and grazed into oblivion by the highest bidder, or should I say campaign donor, and those ranchers would be sol. If on the off chance they were able to secure the leases, the rental rates for state and private ground are one h.... Of a lot bigger than the federal $1.69 fee they pay now. But, on the bright side, the ranchers would be free to do whatever they wanted on their little private ranch that is too small to make a living on and with the loss of its federal leases, valueless. But again, they will be "free" to make their own decisions. My advice is be careful what you wish for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EWfGtQvyb4 In LaVoy's own words. He sure sounds like a good man and a nice guy. Certainly not some whacko nut job. He was definitely very brave, but he can no longer do anyone any good, except as a martyr. Maybe this sounds a little idealistic, but I got to thinking when he was talking about the 3 branches of government. Why not have something like a congressional hearing, but make it a televised public forum where this issue is discussed by: 1. ) a sampling of concerned citizens, 2. ) members of the U.S. Congress, 3. ) Supreme Court Justices, 4. ) the Chief Executive of the land, and 5. ) Elected state officials from the states where this is a hot button issue. We are talking about ownership, control, and regulation of 1/3 of the entire U.S. land mass. The first priority would be to establish and make clear what is supported within the framework of the constitution, and what isn't. Who knows? Maybe the consensus will wind up being that a Constitutional Ammendment is called for? We can either do something like this or continue the pattern we've seen over the last 40 years. I do not support a convention of states...that, to me, is an extemely dangerous place to go. What part of the constitution do you want to 'change, tweek, delete or add to'? We'e so divided right now taht it would be a terrible mistake.
We DO have the option of nullification...I don't think anyone really knows what to do at this point, the power has shifted over the years and we have some brilliant minds wroking on it, however, they're trying to do it through the courts, which isn't going to work either...that's why I have supported real action, like what happened in Burns...the ''''''''''''''stake' was driven long ago...in 1776...we don't need to drive a 'new' stake.
Go back and read what I wrote again before reacting. I didn't say I want a convention of states. I suggested a public forum and I stated why this would be a good thing. Right now, thanks to the internet cesspool, we have an endless supply of so-called information, and no way of determining what is truthful, factual, and reliable. And yes, thankfully, we do have a way to "change, tweet, delete, or add to" the Constitution. We have used it since it's inception. It's called a Constitutional Ammendment. It's a very difficult undertaking, but it's been done, and perhaps some Constitutional Ammendment will provide the solution to the tyranny and government land grabbing.
It was a previous post of someone else who mentioned the convention of states...I was just summarizing my thoughts. Here is a video of a congressional hearing that was held last week here in Utah, I did post it earlier...kind of tedious! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzx2eWenLx8 What's so very frustrating is that we aleady have so many 'tweeks' that got us here...the antiquities act, taylor grazing act, creation of the blm, flpma...all these things have built a 'wall' of sorts that has prevented the states from enjoying what was promsed...we need to tear down those walls. The ranchers know that it will likely cost more to graze on state land, they aren't opposed to paying, they ARE opposed to the theft. It's not alwasy about how it affects you right now, it's about right and wrong. Also, there's so many so-called 'stakeholders' that have been invited to a table that they have no business at. Please note that the federal government CAN be sued, whereas, state governments CANNOT. This is very mportant!!! Environmental groups are terrified they'll lose their huge fear based profit margin when they can no longer tie this up in the courts, think how much that costs the public. My husband, right now, is doing depositions for an ongoing lawsuit concerning SUWA vs. the U.S over Utah roads...he's working with the governors office. It's ugly stuff...and costly. And stupid! It's money. Always that. More and more testimony is coming out showing how Lavoy Finican was assassinated. Whether the gov't will ever be held accountable for their actions is doubtful...but, just ask yourself WHY they felt such an urgent need to stop "this virus before it spread to another county"? wth are they talking about? Nobody had been hurt or threatened, nothing destroyed or damaged. The government wasn't protecting the people, it was protecting it's hold over the people. If the masses don't understand that then there's nothing else I can say! It's very simple to most of us who live here.
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boon
Posts: 4
| I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day.
My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day.
I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | This is chilling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjyo9AuU3LM | |
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BHW's Lance Armstrong
Posts: 11134
Location: Somewhere between S@% stirrer and Saint | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 10:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
Why is this your first post? Love it when people hide. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas |
Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. | |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| Douglas J Gordon - 2016-01-31 11:19 AM
RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 10:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
Why is this your first post? Love it when people hide.
Maybe because of remarks like this? | |
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boon
Posts: 4
| Exactly...mainly because of remarks like that. FYI-I've been a BHW member for a long time, I just never post. Check my profile...I joined 3 YEARS AGO and not today as your post suggests!
Wasn't aware there was a post quota in order to have an opinion.
Additionally, my post isn't in favor or the government or the ranchers since I wasn't there. Not siding with one or the other. BUT it does offer an firsthand accounting to the mindset of this guy just prior to him leaving for Oregon.
Edited by RustyNailRanch 2016-01-31 11:33 AM
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM
Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot.
There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant: http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/ | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Anonymous: We Stand With Ammon Bundy https://www.facebook.com/anonews.co/videos/1157905174221040/?fref=nf | |
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boon
Posts: 4
| musikmaker - 2016-01-31 11:41 AM
RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it.
That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant: http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/
My daughter had an IN PERSON encounter with this guy nearly 3 weeks ago...she is the one who "pulled the kids" from him because of his perceived instability. He was not in Burns at the time. She was there, you were not. I knew about this 2+ weeks ago, I just didn't know his name because she couldn't reveal that until it went public. Additionally, I never said they were fostering FOR CPS. However, CPS did monitor them since they were licensed foster parents. ALL licensed fosters are subject to CPS and bound by their rules. It's her job, trust me...she knows the drill. Visible presence of guns are not allowed.
If you still have your doubts, request a Freedom of Information request on the CPS investigation and you will see who the investigator was as well as the date. I can 100% guarantee you it was my daughter and it happened exactly when she said it did.
My post was not about taking sides. I'm not taking his side, the ranchers side or the side of the government until more details come out, much like Ferguson. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 10:53 AM musikmaker - 2016-01-31 11:41 AM RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it. That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant:
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/
My daughter had an IN PERSON encounter with this guy nearly 3 weeks ago...she is the one who "pulled the kids" from him because of his perceived instability. He was not in Burns at the time. She was there, you were not. I knew about this 2+ weeks ago, I just didn't know his name because she couldn't reveal that until it went public. Additionally, I never said they were fostering FOR CPS. However, CPS did monitor them since they were licensed foster parents. ALL licensed fosters are subject to CPS and bound by their rules. It's her job, trust me...she knows the drill. Visible presence of guns are not allowed. If you still have your doubts, request a Freedom of Information request on the CPS investigation and you will see who the investigator was as well as the date. I can 100% guarantee you it was my daughter and it happened exactly when she said it did. My post was not about taking sides. I'm not taking his side, the ranchers side or the side of the government until more details come out, much like Ferguson.
Thank you for clarifying! Especially about the 'visible presence of guns'. I'm not doubting that your daughter is the one who investigated this. I surely don't want to get into what I think of CPS! lol... | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 12:53 PM musikmaker - 2016-01-31 11:41 AM RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 9:45 AM I can put a slightly different light on LaVoy Finicum. My daughter is an investigator for CPS and several attorneys who deal with CPS in Phoenix. A little less than 3 weeks ago, she got a welfare call on a long-standing foster family, specifically that the foster father who had been making rants, threats and was collecting a mass of guns. The man was LaVoy Finicum. She went to the residence and spoke to him for several hours. She said in addition to the presence of guns, a major no-no with foster kids, that the nature of his rants, radical ideas and "plans for the government" scared her. This is a gal who has seen and heard it all too. LaVoy went on to tell her he was going to Oregon and "would die doing it". His words were so disturbing and unnerving that she had no choice but to request that a judge to revoke his foster license and remove the children from the residence that day. My daughter often calls and lets us know of her unusual or problem cases, never naming names, just venting to us as parents. When she called about this guy, we had not idea who he was but the things that she told us were very frightening. We assured her that she made the right decision. This was a foster family that had been fostering for years, never a problem, never on the CPS radar...but something had snapped in this guy, he did a 180 from the foster parent that she originally knew. She said he was a straight-up wack job that day. I got a call from her on the day of the shooting in Oregon and she said that the man who had been shot was the CPS case she told us about 2 weeks earlier. She was so saddened by it but we reassured her that there was nothing that she could have done to prevent it. That made news when it happened, however, this doesn't make sense because Lavoy was IN Burns at the time. I would question the whole 'no guns' allowed because they fostered a lot of kids over the years mostly through the Catholic church, not cps, and of course the ranchers out west have guns...it's a necessity. Here's a link that is pretty much the same as the other stories that were circulating at the time with a very anti-patriot slant:
http://www.opb.org/news/series/burns-oregon-standoff-bundy-militia-news-updates/militant-says-foster-children-were-pulled-from-his-home-lavoy-finicum-burns-oregon/
My daughter had an IN PERSON encounter with this guy nearly 3 weeks ago...she is the one who "pulled the kids" from him because of his perceived instability. He was not in Burns at the time. She was there, you were not. I knew about this 2+ weeks ago, I just didn't know his name because she couldn't reveal that until it went public. Additionally, I never said they were fostering FOR CPS. However, CPS did monitor them since they were licensed foster parents. ALL licensed fosters are subject to CPS and bound by their rules. It's her job, trust me...she knows the drill. Visible presence of guns are not allowed. If you still have your doubts, request a Freedom of Information request on the CPS investigation and you will see who the investigator was as well as the date. I can 100% guarantee you it was my daughter and it happened exactly when she said it did. My post was not about taking sides. I'm not taking his side, the ranchers side or the side of the government until more details come out, much like Ferguson.
Thank you for posting your information.. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | This just keeps getting more and more, um, interesting. https://shastalantern.net/2016/01/special-agent-in-charge-greg-bretzing-linked-to-national-security-breach-fraud-and-corruption-in-salt-lake-city/ | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I don't have any experience with grazing rights. How was it supposed to work on Finnicum's ranch? He says he purchased the grazing rights from a predecessor. So he did not actually own the land itself, correct? At some point the government decided to charge him for grazing on public lands, even though he paid the rancher who was there before him. Can someone explain this to me? Also, I'd like an explanation of the water issue. Just the facts, please. | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 11:30 AM I don't have any experience with grazing rights. How was it supposed to work on Finnicum's ranch? He says he purchased the grazing rights from a predecessor. So he did not actually own the land itself, correct? At some point the government decided to charge him for grazing on public lands, even though he paid the rancher who was there before him. Can someone explain this to me? Also, I'd like an explanation of the water issue. Just the facts, please. That's how it works out here. During the era of the Homestead Act much of the west was not 'claimed' partly because it takes so much more land to feed cattle & water is also an issue...they 'upped' the acreage from 160 acres to 640 which helped and ranchers were also able to 'claim' grazing rights on other parcels. Think of grazing rights like you would oil rights...you don't buy the land you buy the resource, the ranchers 'own' the grass. I know that on the Navajo reservation the occupants lease the top 6" of the ground & I assume it's that way for grazing rights on land that was never properly disposed of, too. In most cases we now have ranchers who've bought grazing rights from someone else which is entirely legal. The water right goes with the grazing right. The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was when the federal government started charging for grazing...here's a link explaining some of it, just remember that the fight started long before this and hasn't yet ended, as we know. http://www.blm.gov/wy/st/en/field_offices/Casper/range/taylor.1.html This is a link that also explains a lot...it shows the same arguement from the 1920-30's: https://archive.org/stream/fourhundredmilli00wintrich/fourhundredmilli00wintrich_djvu.txt It's not simple, especially after the executive branch got so much control moved to agencies that are not within the constitutional boundaries of our nation. Congress could nullify some, if not all, of these acts, of course they will not. The states could nullify the federal intrusion, they too, are afraid of the concequences. We receive PILT funding (Payment in Lieu of Taxes...better known as Pennies in Lieu of Trillions) that further create an environment of pure blackmail and bribery! Those are facts! lol
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-31 1:34 PM
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Strong Willed Woman
Posts: 6577
Location: Prosser, WA | I don't believe for one minute that they want to take those rights away from the ranchers for public use. They don't want anyone out there. Not sure what they really want all the land for but in no way is it for the benefit of the public. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | kakbarrelracer - 2016-01-31 2:05 PM I don't believe for one minute that they want to take those rights away from the ranchers for public use. They don't want anyone out there. Not sure what they really want all the land for but in no way is it for the benefit of the public.
So they can sell the mining rights to foreign countries like the POS McCain did in Arizona.
Defense Bill Passes, Giving Sacred Native American...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/12/defense-bill-passes-rio-tinto_n_6317946.html Dec 12, 2014 ... The $585 billion National Defense Authorization Act of 2015 is one of the ... mining firm Rio Tinto 2,400 acres of the Tonto National Forest in exchange for ... giving American forest land to a foreign firm that has such a connection. .... So, after we've strip-mined, frakked and oil-spilled this country into a total ... | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | And then of course we have Hillary's thumb in the pie..Washington DC could care less about we the people. They laugh all the way to the bank. Apr 23, 2015 ... Uranium One has the mining rights to Mr. Christensen's property. ... Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that ... Foundation while Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's office was ... If the Kazakh deal was a major victory, UrAsia did not wait long ...
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 3:05 PM
And then of course we have Hillary's thumb in the pie..Washington DC could care less about we the people. They laugh all the way to the bank. Apr 23, 2015 ... Uranium One has the mining rights to Mr. Christensen's property. ... Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that ... Foundation while Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's office was ... If the Kazakh deal was a major victory, UrAsia did not wait long ...
This kind of thing seems to be just ignored. I've never even seen a plausible denial that this took place. A lot of people are apathetic and don't give two sh!ts, but I also think a lot of people are so frustrated that they've given up....or they haven't reached a boiling point quite yet. Finicum and the others like him evidently have reached that stage where it's literally do or die in their mind's eye.
This is one reason why a guy like Trump is surprising people with his popularity. He is a populist who doesn't give a dam about political correctness, or even the political parties, for that matter. I'm not saying I'm a Trump supporter, but I love that he is be holding to nobody and his "Make America Great Again" slogan is resonating. A lot of people supporting him are figuring it's time to roll the dice. | |
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My Heart Be Happy
Posts: 9159
Location: Arkansas | RustyNailRanch - 2016-01-31 11:30 AM
Exactly...mainly because of remarks like that. FYI-I've been a BHW member for a long time, I just never post. Check my profile...I joined 3 YEARS AGO and not today as your post suggests!
Wasn't aware there was a post quota in order to have an opinion.
Additionally, my post isn't in favor or the government or the ranchers since I wasn't there. Not siding with one or the other. BUT it does offer an firsthand accounting to the mindset of this guy just prior to him leaving for Oregon.
Is it public knowledge who foster families are? I know nothing about that area. . . | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot.
It is to bad the audio is so poor. In a nutshell she said when they stopped the first time Lavoy rolled his window down and was yelling they were headed to see the sheriff. Ryan rolled his window down and put both hands out the window and they started shooting at him! Shooting out the truck mirror. So thats why they took off again. The second road block was set up after a corner so no time to really stop. LaVoy decided to try to go around. LaVoy got out of the truck, put his hands in the air and started walking back and they just started shooting. They hit him several times and that is what he reached for......where he had been shot. They also immediatelly started shooting aggressively at the truck. They didnt wait for nothing. They fired the first shot and all shots. He was unarmed. He had left his guns at the refuge and thats where they still are. She had gotten some video, but authorities now have it as it was in the truck so we will never see it. There was a Mark somebody in the truck, and they believe he was a FBI plant. They were completely set up and they knew exactly where they would be and when and appearantly nobody knew him prior. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Here is the petition for the Hammonds. I hope everybody signs it. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//petition/free-hammonds-0 | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen? | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Bear - 2016-01-31 12:30 PM
I don't have any experience with grazing rights. How was it supposed to work on Finnicum's ranch? He says he purchased the grazing rights from a predecessor. So he did not actually own the land itself, correct? At some point the government decided to charge him for grazing on public lands, even though he paid the rancher who was there before him. Can someone explain this to me? Also, I'd like an explanation of the water issue. Just the facts, please.
For a visual, here is a ranch for sale where I'm from that also carries BLM grazing permits with it. Most of the ranches have x amount of deeded land like any other piece of property you buy, and then many also carry with them deeded "grazing rights" on additional acreage of BLM land. So many are a mix of both and also carry x amount of water rights for a specific amount of acreage.. http://www.oregonranchland.com/ranches188.htm | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 7:31 PM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. It is to bad the audio is so poor. In a nutshell she said when they stopped the first time Lavoy rolled his window down and was yelling they were headed to see the sheriff. Ryan rolled his window down and put both hands out the window and they started shooting at him! Shooting out the truck mirror. So thats why they took off again. The second road block was set up after a corner so no time to really stop. LaVoy decided to try to go around. LaVoy got out of the truck, put his hands in the air and started walking back and they just started shooting. They hit him several times and that is what he reached for......where he had been shot. They also immediatelly started shooting aggressively at the truck. They didnt wait for nothing. They fired the first shot and all shots. He was unarmed. He had left his guns at the refuge and thats where they still are. She had gotten some video, but authorities now have it as it was in the truck so we will never see it. There was a Mark somebody in the truck, and they believe he was a FBI plant. They were completely set up and they knew exactly where they would be and when and appearantly nobody knew him prior.
They clearly sat there for a few minutes.. it didnt just happen that way.. thats all speculation.. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:11 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen?
It is my undserstanding Finicum's ranch was partly owned deeded land and then additional grazing rights on BLM land. Much like the ranch I posted a listing for as an examply of how it works. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | http://www.freecapitalist.com/2016/01/31/second-eyewitness-chronicling-the-tragic-ambush-and-murder-of-lavoy-finicum-video/ | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 8:26 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:11 PM Nevertooold - 2016-01-31 6:59 PM As far as the mindset of LaVoy...I try to put myself in their shoes and I do know that I wouldn't stand back and just let them do this without a fight. I'm sure everyone would declare I had lost my mind and they would probably be right. The BLM has been poking and pimping some ranchers for a long time. This isn't something that just started. I can't imagine how the rancher that lives in Texas along the Red River feels about the BLM taking claims on half of his family ranch that the family has owned since the 1940's, and includes his home.
People need to understand that most of these ranches have a home and acreage that was bought and paid for by them and the BLM grazing leases are used for them to be able to make a living that also includes cheap beef for us. Control the food and water...You control the people.
trying to understand this... so did they build a home on land that was leased or bought grazing rights or on their own property that have a deed for and own outright.. If it is on the land they only have grazing rights on I dont understand why they would build on that.. did they just assume nothing would change or happen? It is my undserstanding Finicum's ranch was partly owned deeded land and then additional grazing rights on BLM land. Much like the ranch I posted a listing for as an examply of how it works.
So he built his home on leased land.. and when they wanted it back .. he lost it.. makes me wonder why build on that part.. or am i confused.. | |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot.
I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion. | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 8:32 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
me to.. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25351
Location: Bastrop, Texas | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot.
I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
What I saw was they plowed into the snow and LaVon hopped out. He raised his hands and turned to look around, then reached with his right hand over to his left side, then he dropped. Nothing in that video indicated several shots were fired. It was consistent with one shot. If he was shot several times, an autopsy would prove it, obviously. Do we even know for sure if there was an autopsy? There should be. Didn't the FBI claim that he was only shot once? Good grief, it should be easy to prove if he was shot "several times". The family can request an autopsy.
I haven't seen an autopsy even mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else? | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Take it or leave it...be whatever you choose, just be ready for consequences...really think hard about this, the future of our world is at stake, your children, grandchildren. These people have nothing to gain and everything to lose...as do you. CLIVEN D. BUNDY PO BOX 7175 BUNKERVILLE, NV 89007 January 29, 2016 NEWS RELEASE LIBERTY FREEDOM FOR GOD WE STAND! In all things, we have sought guidance, and desired to do God, our Father’s, will! We have studied the gospel of Jesus Christ, through his prophets, and try to understand the proper form of government, mostly the inspired US Constitution, the supreme law of the land. Desiring freedom, that all man might be able to exercise his agency. The US Constitution lays out a very plain simple form of inspired government. We as a nation only need to follow it! Our founding fathers fought the battles for freedom and laid out the plan, the supreme law. We the People need to make beneficial use of it and defend it. January 26, 2016, this week, LaVoy Finicum was assassinated by wicked and evil men representing our US government. These men in local, state, and US government feared the truths that LaVoy Finicum was standing for and teaching to his fellowmen. The truth about the supreme law of this land was more than these leaching bureaucrats could allow! The teaching of the true principles had to stop. Great fear needs to be put in the minds of We the People, great fear. (The work of the devil!) All is well. All is well in Zion. All is well in your government. There cannot be a cry go out for freedom, or for property rights, state sovereignty, local government closet to the people – government by the people – for the people. No, we cannot allow policing power be in the hands of We the People’s elected county Sheriff. We the great bureaucracies rule and have unlimited power over these lands. We feed our family, we buy our houses, our cars, and our offices are air-conditioned. We have guns, cars with lights, sirens, the best communication equipment, good health care and a lush guaranteed retirement plan! We have unlimited power. We can buy up everything and every man’s soul with their own money and with their 18 trillion dollar debt. We are prospering. We own the state government and their land. We buy and control their schools and their sheriff. We control the water in the river and under the earth. We control the airways, even the signals that pass around the world. We, the bureaucrat, are the supreme. We control, or at least we are about to control, the environment. We control all the endangered species of the creatures and plants. We control the elements in the earth and all the markets of the commodities of this earth. Yes, all is well in Zion! Men like LaVoy Finicum, the Bundy brothers, those patriots and those who pray for freedom and liberty and support for people, such as women like Shawna Cox – they are all crazies! They are threatening our lifestyle, our unlimited and great authority, and our policing power. We are the majority. They are only a few producers, but with money and fear – we control the rest! (All of these great powers mentioned above, the US constitution does not give to the US government. In the 10th Amendment only a very few enumerated powers are given by the people to the federal government. All other powers and rights are reserved to the states respectively or to the people.) (The Bill of Rights Article X) With money and fear we will justify the assassination of LaVoy Finicum and make political prisoners of all that dare to lift their hand. (We can, we will kill.) This is our livelihood and we will protect our right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, so help me Devil! The line is drawn between We the People. On one side, the bureaucrat, the hungry fat cat. On the other side, the producer and the protector that cares for and multiplies and replenishes the God given resources with his blood, sweat, and tears to protect and feed this land. The one who pours the milk in the fat cat’s bowl! How did America get to this point? Is it because We the People want to take a lick or two out of the bowl? Is it because we the rancher, the livestock industry, accepted the Taylor Grazing Act as being constitutional? The livestock industry did accept the work of the federal government in mapping and adjudicating our preempted property rights that were created through beneficial use of the renewable resources, water and forage. The adjudicated lands are all within admitted states within the union of the United States. When we look at the large map of the United States we see that in the west the federal government claims over 50% ownership of the land. In a state, like Nevada, they claim over 90% ownership of the land. How can that be? Show me. Show me where it says in the constitution that the federal government can own mass areas of land? Only in Article 4, Section 3 of our constitution do We the People give congress unlimited power over land and congress had power to dispose of these lands. That’s exactly what they did when they admitted states to the union. The only other power that the constitution affords the government is Article 1 Section 8 Clause 17, here We the People give congress unlimited power to legislate over 10 miles square, which is Washington DC, and other property purchased with the consent of state legislature for military purposes and other needful buildings. So again the question is, how can the bureaucrat have so much unlimited power within an admitted state? Who are the stewards of the land over this red area on the map? Isn’t the rancher the one with the adjudicated rights the steward of the land? We the ranchers are responsible for this great over reach of the federal government. We, the rancher, signed contracts with the federal government such a leases, permits and licenses. We, the rancher, signed contracts giving the US bureaucracies unlimited power to manage our stewardship and we pay them a grazing fee to do this. This contract between the individual and the US government puts both parties in the federal court system because one party or the other breaches something in the contract. In the federal court system the resource user NEVER wins. Remember a contract has been signed that says they have unlimited power. This contract takes the constitutional jurisdiction and authority away from your local sheriff, away from your county government, away from state government giving unlimited power to the federal bureaucrats – BLM, Forest Service, US Fish & Wildlife, Park Service, EPA and etc. This is what LaVoy Finicum, my sons, Shawna Cox, and other patriots were out in the western lands trying to teach. This is why they assassinated LaVoy Finicum. Cliven D. Bundy | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | I know someones tried to answer my question.. but i have asked here and on facebook.. no one can tell me.... The land his home was built on.. was it his bought and paid for by him.. the land his home was on.. also.. grazing rights isnt considered their land is it? I have asked for a few days and I keep getting these copy paste stuff but no definitive answers.. its black and white..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-01-31 8:34 PM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bear - 2016-01-31 7:27 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video. There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot. I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion. What I saw was they plowed into the snow and LaVon hopped out. He raised his hands and turned to look around, then reached with his right hand over to his left side, then he dropped. Nothing in that video indicated several shots were fired. It was consistent with one shot. If he was shot several times, an autopsy would prove it, obviously. Do we even know for sure if there was an autopsy? There should be. Didn't the FBI claim that he was only shot once? Good grief, it should be easy to prove if he was shot "several times". The family can request an autopsy. I haven't seen an autopsy even mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else?
Autopsy has most definitely been requested as have pictures of the pickup...so far, zilch. You cannot tell without audio when the shots were fired, however, it's very obvious that the back window of the camper was shot out befoe Lavoy was shot as was the windshield and in the unedited version of the shooting, after Lavoy was shot, the camera clearly shows shots being fired after it pans towards the front of the vehicle...I suppose a person can see what they want to to justify their 'position and opinion' otherwise it would never have been released.
I recall vividly the fbi saying one thing immediately following the news (3 shots fired by fbi) 'shootout' (as in return fire), 'charging the police' (uh-huh) and 'traffic stop'...verses the young girls version that matches this exactly...I guess with all the bull**** they had to 'match' up their story as close as they could...it stinks to me, but hey, maybe my 'smeller' is just a little sharper than some? It looks to me that Lavoy was pointing to the pickup! Why in the h** would he exit the pickup THEN try to draw his gun???? He was not a stupid man. He was a 'target'. I know it's very hard to imagine that our government could do this to citizens...or that we could we live in la la land. Denial enables all things...that is a fact.
I still believe, so far, that the fed expected a 'shootout' and when it didn't happen the shooters stopped...maybe because they finally ralized it was 'hit'? Maybe they had a conscience and couldn't continue...surely they didn't run out of ammo... | |
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Proud to be Deplorable
Posts: 1929
| Bear - 2016-01-31 8:27 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM
ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM
jbhoot - 2016-01-31 11:39 AM Bear - 2016-01-31 11:26 AM Terrible audio quality. I couldn't listen beyond the first 2 minutes of her talking. I'll wait for something of better quality. Also, does anyone know anything about the autopsy? Was there even an autopsy? There should be. Naturally LaVoy's people are going to call this murder and describe the events in such a way to support their version. I just want the truth, one way or the other, just like I wanted the truth when the thug in Fergusson Missouri was shot. There are better ones out there Scott. It may be her views on the incident but I find it hard to believe mainly because several of her statements do not match the unedited video.
There are 2 different people who have givin audio accounts that were in that truck. This lady that I posted, and then the 18 year old girl. The 18 yr old girls account was very rattled but understandably so especially givin her age. She also didnt actually see much because they had all pushed her down on the floor of the truck and were shielding her as best they could. I dont know how anybody could say this ladys account doesnt match up because I was watched it and watched it and watched close up's and it matches perfectly and explains alot.
I have watched The unedited video six times and stand by opinion.
What I saw was they plowed into the snow and LaVon hopped out. He raised his hands and turned to look around, then reached with his right hand over to his left side, then he dropped. Nothing in that video indicated several shots were fired. It was consistent with one shot. If he was shot several times, an autopsy would prove it, obviously. Do we even know for sure if there was an autopsy? There should be. Didn't the FBI claim that he was only shot once? Good grief, it should be easy to prove if he was shot "several times". The family can request an autopsy.
I haven't seen an autopsy even mentioned anywhere. Has anyone else?
I am sure there will be one. | |
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I Prefer to Live in Fantasy Land
Posts: 64864
Location: In the Hills of Texas | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:32 PM I know someones tried to answer my question.. but i have asked here and on facebook.. no one can tell me.... The land his home was built on.. was it his bought and paid for by him.. the land his home was on.. also.. grazing rights isnt considered their land is it? I have asked for a few days and I keep getting these copy paste stuff but no definitive answers.. its black and white..
Most own their homes and some land but then lease grazing rights where they are then allowed to have their cattle graze on that land that unconsitutionally is owned by the federal government. Those lands should belong to the states.
I think where you are getting confused is the article I posted about what is going on with the BLM and ranchers along the Red River in Texas. What is the Bureau of Land Management claiming? The subject of dispute is a 116-mile stretch of land along the Red River. Basically, the BLM claims that the land—which many ranchers and property owners, including Aderholt, hold deeds on—are actually public lands, because the river’s course has changed. The BLM claims that the land actually hasn’t been private since a Supreme Court case in the 1920’s established what part of the Red River belongs to the public, but the people who own the deeds have been paying taxes on that property in that time. What do the deed holders say? Not a huge surprise, but they don’t buy it. Some, like Aderholt, have built homes on the land that the BLM says belongs to the public, and many of them use the land for ranching, so it’s not just the principle of the matter—people’s livelihoods are at stake here. So they’re angry, and they have been since the issue came up last year. It may be true that a Supreme Court case nearly a hundred years ago explained what’s public land and what’s private land along the Red River, but those borders have never clearly defined, which has deed holders suspicious about why the BLM is only now claiming that it’s land that they’ve been using. So whose land is it? That’s the big question here. If the river’s course changed gradually, through erosion, the Bureau of Land Management has a case here. It’s an unpopular school of thought if you hold the deed, but, as former Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson put it last year, “When rivers move, boundaries change. That’s accepted law, no one disputes that.” The issue here, though, is whether the Red River’s banks have moved through gradual erosion, or whether it was a process called avulsion, where the river’s banks change suddenly because of a flood or another catastrophic event. When that’s the cause of the change, the land rights aren’t affected. Patterson told Breitbart last year that “the BLM always assumes that it’s avulsive when it works to their advantage, and that it’s erosion when it works to their advantage.” Patterson argues that, if the Bureau of Land Management wants that land, they’ll have to prove that it was erosion that changed the course of the river. The laws at work here are old—dating back to the Louisiana Purchase—and complicated. It’s hard to know exactly whose land it is, but it’s also likely that the ownership issue here fairly blindsided the deed holders. In the Bundy Ranch standoff, sympathies were pretty easy to assign along party lines—part of Bundy’s argument for why the land in question was his was that he didn’t “recognize the federal government as even existing,” which appealed to those who share that belief, but alienated those who considered Bundy’s claims to the land dubious at best. Deed holders like Aderholt, on the other hand, require less worldview-identification to sympathize with. That’s important here, as the case proceeds to move through the court of public opinion. - See more at: http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/is-the-bureau-of-land-ma... | |
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM I know someones tried to answer my question.. but i have asked here and on facebook.. no one can tell me.... The land his home was built on.. was it his bought and paid for by him.. the land his home was on.. also.. grazing rights isnt considered their land is it? I have asked for a few days and I keep getting these copy paste stuff but no definitive answers.. its black and white..
I don't know. I haven't researched the land parcel ownership in Arizona...the BLM has a site where you can find the history of the so-called 'public land'. http://www.geocommunicator.gov/GeoComm/ I highly doubt that their home is on lease land, it usually doesn't work that way...they likely 'own' a section where their home is and own the resources on adjoining sections...and otherwise. Ranchers out here must own grazing rights for summer and winter pastures. | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc..
Edited by Bibliafarm 2016-01-31 9:07 PM
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Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:07 PM Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc.. They put such a burden on the ranchers through regulations that they cannot afford to keep it. I shared a video of lavoy earlier where he was explaining this...the pasture he was speaking of at the time was one that the blm had pulled from grazing for six years even though he still had to pay the AUM on it. The federal government is no more adept at managing land than they were the Mustang Ranch. And the wildfires out here are crazy! We're losing so much wildlife, timber, grazing, watersheds...due to the inept manegment by the fed. It must stop. The states need to take it over quick.
Edited by musikmaker 2016-01-31 9:16 PM
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | musikmaker - 2016-01-31 10:14 PM Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:07 PM Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc.. They put such a burden on the ranchers through regulations that they cannot afford to keep it. I shared a video of lavoy earlier where he was explaining this...the pasture he was speaking of at the time was one that the blm had pulled from grazing for six years even though he still had to pay the AUM on it. The federal government is no more adept at managing land than they were the Mustang Ranch. And the wildfires out here are crazy! We're losing so much wildlife, timber, grazing, watersheds...due to the inept manegment by the fed. It must stop. The states need to take it over quick.
Now that makes sense.!! thanks .. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 280
| musikmaker - 2016-01-31 7:14 PM
Bibliafarm - 2016-01-31 8:07 PM Thanks you all. I wonder how they can take their home itself then, not the land around it... unless owed money etc.. They put such a burden on the ranchers through regulations that they cannot afford to keep it. I shared a video of lavoy earlier where he was explaining this...the pasture he was speaking of at the time was one that the blm had pulled from grazing for six years even though he still had to pay the AUM on it. The federal government is no more adept at managing land than they were the Mustang Ranch. And the wildfires out here are crazy! We're losing so much wildlife, timber, grazing, watersheds...due to the inept manegment by the fed. It must stop. The states need to take it over quick.
100% true! We are going through the very same here. Not just natural resources but actual cattle too. Theyou set a backfire that almost killed a friend's husband and 200 head of cattle. At least they won the lawsuit on that one. My best friend has a pasture full of cows with burnt feet cause they were told they had 24 hours to get them out and they actually got about two hours notice. And these people run 400-500 pair on that mountain. And there was many other families with cattle up there too that went through the same. 100's of head burnt to deal. Lives risked and tens of thousands of pasture unusable in the middle of summer because the government doesn't give one sh!t about the farmers or ranchers. Ugghhh. And that was just one fire! | |
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Veteran
Posts: 280
| Hope I've not already posted that story, lol. I'm like 50 first dates and forget what stories I tell, lol | |
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Warmblood with Wings
Posts: 27846
Location: Florida.. | Heres the story in reaccounting it.. I still believe he got shot due to his actions.. not ambushed not murdered.. read every bit of it.. doesnt mean I feel the government is right in taking land.. but in this situation I believe the officers were justified to shot him.he does carry a gun on that side BTW.. proof in the photos at interviews yet so many were saying no way....http://bearingarms.com/lavoy-finicum-murdered-forced-oregon-police-shoot/ | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | jbhoot - 2016-01-31 7:32 PM ThreeCorners - 2016-01-31 6:37 PM |
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