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 Big Gun
Posts: 2216
 
Location: Texas | I have a hand held massager with heat I got at wal mart for my husband several years ago for his back that we don't use anymore and have been using it on my horse and he just loves it. Will make the funniest faces when I use it on him. Best $39 I've ever spent. Ask Jackie jatzlau what she thinks about hers and is she still uses it, but she may have the pony plate. I saw one of her posts 6 months ago or do where she had some of her horses using it. This like most things is a padding fad because they know a lot of horse people will buy it if someone tells them it will make their horse perform better | |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
  
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | HotbearLVR - 2014-05-28 10:58 AM barrelracr131 - 2014-05-27 2:20 PM TurnLane - 2014-05-27 1:47 PM I couldnt quote Allison properly with highlighted text but I wanted to address two things she brought up. One- the soft tissue. I am unsure how you can say they are bad for soft tissue when there is no evidence as you say for it-then where is the evidence or study against it??
As far as cost- yes the Theraplate is a hefty tag- which is why I say I chose the lesser off brand that is safety UL listed BTW:) So if your issue is cost to try a testimonial based product- then I would say have you priced a PHT blanket, poll pack, wraps, bell boots, soft rides with magnets- ect?
And if magnets run the risk of not much damage- yet vibration is unproven- I go back to my original statement above---where is the testimonial based evidence against vibration?
And while we are looking for eqine studies- does anyone have a link to equine studies on magnets? For the soft tissue issue, I am curious as to how vibrational therapy would be of benefit to a horse with, say, a DDFT tear. That horse would traditionally be on stall rest to prevent the area from tearing during the healing process (ie keeping the area still). That statement was partially based on other people's comments on this thread indicating they thought they would see a potential problem with this therapy for similar injuries.
And yes, I have a PHT blanket, as well as other therapy products (BOT). They are the cost of the large theraplate minus a zero, lol. I don't have issues with people spending money on these products, I'm just explaining why I'm not convinced based upon the information they provided on the website.
My point about the magnets is that a static charge is pretty unlikely to cause harm.
And as far as testimonials AGAINST vibration, well I highly doubt those would make print on the company website. And the fact that it could be harmful was nothing more than my own speculation!
I don't think the product has been widely tested enough in any sort of clinical setting to say if it is harmful or helpful for a horse, based upon what I have read.
As far as studies go for magnet therapies, I don't think they really exist.
Much in the way of all the supplements on the market, it does not really make sense for a company to test the effectiveness of a product if they are not required to do so. After all, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a fiscal standpoint.
To ask "Where is the proof that Theraplate therapy does NOT work?" is clever, but that's like asking "Where is the proof that there is NOT a candy-apple red '57 Chevy orbiting the moon?" Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it definitively exists. Proving a negative is usually much harder than proving a positive. Since there doesn't appear to be definitive proof that the Theraplate device does NOT work, the manufacturers of this device would like you to give it a try.....for $6000. I have a feeling that if I bought one of these contraptions, it would wind up in my garage next to my Bowflex.
If you want a few laughs, take a tour of the various quackery devices that have been promoted like Theraplate, such as the "Vibrometer":
http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/vibrate.htm
I think you and I were fb buddies for a topic or two? Anyhow- I am not saying she is wrong at all. I usually prefer science- I am just saying- why the bashing on the TP (which i DONT own) when the same evidence to support it is the same as for the BOT or PHT might use (venograms?) ect. It is not less valid for them just becuse it cost $6k.
I do think there are snakeoil salesmen in every industry but I see this less as a way to make a bunch of money and more as a service to try and help a horse- proven or not. Just my thoughts.
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 BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | TurnLane - 2014-05-28 11:12 AM HotbearLVR - 2014-05-28 10:58 AM barrelracr131 - 2014-05-27 2:20 PM TurnLane - 2014-05-27 1:47 PM I couldnt quote Allison properly with highlighted text but I wanted to address two things she brought up. One- the soft tissue. I am unsure how you can say they are bad for soft tissue when there is no evidence as you say for it-then where is the evidence or study against it??
As far as cost- yes the Theraplate is a hefty tag- which is why I say I chose the lesser off brand that is safety UL listed BTW:) So if your issue is cost to try a testimonial based product- then I would say have you priced a PHT blanket, poll pack, wraps, bell boots, soft rides with magnets- ect?
And if magnets run the risk of not much damage- yet vibration is unproven- I go back to my original statement above---where is the testimonial based evidence against vibration?
And while we are looking for eqine studies- does anyone have a link to equine studies on magnets? For the soft tissue issue, I am curious as to how vibrational therapy would be of benefit to a horse with, say, a DDFT tear. That horse would traditionally be on stall rest to prevent the area from tearing during the healing process (ie keeping the area still). That statement was partially based on other people's comments on this thread indicating they thought they would see a potential problem with this therapy for similar injuries.
And yes, I have a PHT blanket, as well as other therapy products (BOT). They are the cost of the large theraplate minus a zero, lol. I don't have issues with people spending money on these products, I'm just explaining why I'm not convinced based upon the information they provided on the website.
My point about the magnets is that a static charge is pretty unlikely to cause harm.
And as far as testimonials AGAINST vibration, well I highly doubt those would make print on the company website. And the fact that it could be harmful was nothing more than my own speculation!
I don't think the product has been widely tested enough in any sort of clinical setting to say if it is harmful or helpful for a horse, based upon what I have read.
As far as studies go for magnet therapies, I don't think they really exist.
Much in the way of all the supplements on the market, it does not really make sense for a company to test the effectiveness of a product if they are not required to do so. After all, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose from a fiscal standpoint.
To ask "Where is the proof that Theraplate therapy does NOT work?" is clever, but that's like asking "Where is the proof that there is NOT a candy-apple red '57 Chevy orbiting the moon?" Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it definitively exists. Proving a negative is usually much harder than proving a positive. Since there doesn't appear to be definitive proof that the Theraplate device does NOT work, the manufacturers of this device would like you to give it a try.....for $6000. I have a feeling that if I bought one of these contraptions, it would wind up in my garage next to my Bowflex.
If you want a few laughs, take a tour of the various quackery devices that have been promoted like Theraplate, such as the "Vibrometer":
http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/vibrate.htm
I do think there are snakeoil salesmen in every industry but I see this less as a way to make a bunch of money and more as a service to try and help a horse- proven or not. Just my thoughts.
You might be right TurnLane. Maybe the makers of this device are merely trying to better our lives and maybe the $6000 price tag is not intended to profiteer. Maybe it's all just a benevolent gesture. If you wish to believe that, then by all means, be my guest.
For some reason, this thread reminds me of the ads for "colon cleanse" where they used an aesthetically pleasing photo of a huge fecal cast of the colon as "proof" of how their product eliminated "toxins".
I happen to believe this is all snake oil, pure and simple. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | I like BOT and PHT products but I don't go around saying they are scientifically proven.....big difference. Like I said earlier, we all succumb to the use of a wide array of unproven remedies but some of us admit that they aren't really backed by sound science. I used a BOT "mini blanket" and wrapped it around my sore knee and the next day it felt MUCH better. That does not mean the product is scientifically proven. It's one thing to spend $50 or even $300 on a product that may not actually be based on sound science.....but another thing entirely to spend $6000. As Alison said, Theraplate MIGHT actually work and maybe there will be sound evidence to support it, but so far, contrary to what many seem to think, that evidence seems to be lacking. | |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Haha, I rarely believe much other than real life friends that I know and trust-you would be one of the virtual ones on certain topics:) I will say it again, this device is no different in facts, studies, advertising or claims than magnets, feed thrus or ACV, thats all. | |
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BHW Resident Surgeon
Posts: 25352
Location: Bastrop, Texas | TurnLane - 2014-05-28 11:39 AM
Haha, I rarely believe much other than real life friends that I know and trust-you would be one of the virtual ones on certain topics:) I will say it again, this device is no different in facts, studies, advertising or claims than magnets, feed thrus or ACV, thats all.
I agree. | |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | That is one of the reasons I bought the Pony Plate- LESS money (Ive spent that much at the vet in one visit) but also UL listed for safety which really matters to me on electrical devices. The more sore footed a horse is- the more they seem to enjoy it. I liken it to a foot massage. And I love it- thats all- just sharing.  | |
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | 3rdtimesacharm - 2014-05-28 10:59 AM I have a hand held massager with heat I got at wal mart for my husband several years ago for his back that we don't use anymore and have been using it on my horse and he just loves it. Will make the funniest faces when I use it on him. Best $39 I've ever spent. Ask Jackie jatzlau what she thinks about hers and is she still uses it, but she may have the pony plate. I saw one of her posts 6 months ago or do where she had some of her horses using it. This like most things is a padding fad because they know a lot of horse people will buy it if someone tells them it will make their horse perform better
Can you google and find the one you have- the massager? I wanted to buy the one Molly Powell uses but this one sounds handy. | |
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Big Gun
Posts: 2216
Location: Texas | I took a pic of the box but I don't know to load it off my iPad. It's made by homedis and it's called a percussion massager with heat but you don't have to use the heat and it has different levels of vibrations. It has 2 knobs on it andyou only want to use it on areas with a lot of fat or muscles. I would think, although mine loves it around his withers where horses like to scratch one another. I bought this at wal mart a long time ago. IF they still carry it, it's probably lot more expensive. I also tried a chiropractic massager but it only has one speed and it was hard for me to use it shook me so bad.. I just googled them and they still sell them and are $39.99 at bed bath and beyond too
Edited by 3rdtimesacharm 2014-05-28 12:15 PM
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Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | 3rdtimesacharm - 2014-05-28 12:09 PM I took a pic of the box but I don't know to load it off my iPad. It's made by homedis and it's called a percussion massager with heat but you don't have to use the heat and it has different levels of vibrations. It has 2 knobs on it andyou only want to use it on areas with a lot of fat or muscles. I would think, although mine loves it around his withers where horses like to scratch one another. I bought this at wal mart a long time ago. IF they still carry it, it's probably lot more expensive. I also tried a chiropractic massager but it only has one speed and it was hard for me to use it shook me so bad.. I just googled them and they still sell them and are $39.99 at bed bath and beyond too
Thanks!
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  Whack and Roll
Posts: 6342
Location: NE Texas | A car buffer with the soft pad works well too.  | |
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 Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Herbie - 2014-05-28 12:52 PM
A car buffer with the soft pad works well too.
I would love to do a side by side comparison. Price, ease of use, and effectiveness. I use my Equisports massager A LOT but it was a good chunk of money, so I better use it. LOL I was wearing my hands out without it. | |
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 Miss Positive
Posts: 3554
Location: Crowder, OK | I know for a for a fact that it helped my horses feet. he had underrun heals, thin soles and shelly feet. it did increase his sole depth. Im sorry i dont have my x rays on hand to prove it, but I did see them. all horses are different and I do believe some horses the higher settings will make them sore. its a catch 22 w/anything imo....I think it works on some things and others it doesnt. I also love BOT stuff, I have personnaly seen the results the wraps made on a healing a suspensory tear, and the fact that due to my horse's wraps helping my husband's back while in his recliner, we bought a BOT bed cover and it has most def helped his restless leg syndrome at night and other sorenesses...Now, I cannot sleep on it, it makes my skind crawl all night, but we have it just on his side of the bed and it works for him....again, horses are like people, some things works on some and some things dont. | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | HotbearLVR - 2014-05-28 11:42 AM TurnLane - 2014-05-28 11:39 AM
Haha, I rarely believe much other than real life friends that I know and trust-you would be one of the virtual ones on certain topics:) I will say it again, this device is no different in facts, studies, advertising or claims than magnets, feed thrus or ACV, thats all. I agree.
Totes agree as well
Magnets, feed throughs, etc are also not backed by studies (With the exception of Cosequin, which does have a clinical trial backing its absorbtion). The difference for me, like Hotbear said, is price. I can gamble with a few hundred bucks..... thousands, not so much. I don't have the money to do so on a therapy. I would rather spend that on a nice prospect, new tack, put towards a trailer, etc etc.
I could care less what folks do, or use, especially if they are seeing good results. But for me..... At this level of expense, I would want some better science backing this therapy. If I were spending it on a therapy, I would rather put the money towards chiro, massage, and a good lameness vet. Again, JMO. I am a hobbyist and this is not how I make my money, so I do not need every possible competitive edge either.
FTR I did consider having my husband make me a PP to try it out, and their price point really is not far off. The materials plus labor, plus a small markup (they should make a profit after all) put their price in a reasonable range in his opinion. I didn't want to spend that much to try it, so we never made one.
What happened to my font? lol | |
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Hungarian Midget Woman
Location: Midwest | Tinkerbell - 2014-05-28 1:13 PM I know for a for a fact that it helped my horses feet. he had underrun heals, thin soles and shelly feet. it did increase his sole depth. Im sorry i dont have my x rays on hand to prove it, but I did see them. all horses are different and I do believe some horses the higher settings will make them sore. its a catch 22 w/anything imo....I think it works on some things and others it doesnt. I also love BOT stuff, I have personnaly seen the results the wraps made on a healing a suspensory tear, and the fact that due to my horse's wraps helping my husband's back while in his recliner, we bought a BOT bed cover and it has most def helped his restless leg syndrome at night and other sorenesses...Now, I cannot sleep on it, it makes my skind crawl all night, but we have it just on his side of the bed and it works for him....again, horses are like people, some things works on some and some things dont.
Just another question- did you do anything else for the horse with the bad feet at the same time? (Like biotin, better feed, supplements, special trims)? This is one of the tougher things using testimonials as evidence. Don't get me wrong- I am really glad it helped you horse! And def glad he's doing better :)
Scientific studies, as a whole, eliminate the other variables that may be partially or even fully accountable for the changes one sees (again just saying this in general, I'm not picking you out in particular).
I too really like the BOT stuff. They do increase circulation IME and help my horse warm up smoother.
I agree that different therapies seem to work better for some than for others. | |
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Accident Prone
Posts: 22277
Location: 100 miles from Nowhere, AR | Tinkerbell - 2014-05-28 1:13 PM I know for a for a fact that it helped my horses feet. he had underrun heals, thin soles and shelly feet. it did increase his sole depth. Im sorry i dont have my x rays on hand to prove it, but I did see them. all horses are different and I do believe some horses the higher settings will make them sore. its a catch 22 w/anything imo....I think it works on some things and others it doesnt. I also love BOT stuff, I have personnaly seen the results the wraps made on a healing a suspensory tear, and the fact that due to my horse's wraps helping my husband's back while in his recliner, we bought a BOT bed cover and it has most def helped his restless leg syndrome at night and other sorenesses...Now, I cannot sleep on it, it makes my skind crawl all night, but we have it just on his side of the bed and it works for him....again, horses are like people, some things works on some and some things dont.
That's interesting: made your skin crawl? I wasn't impressed with the BOT company claims, but there were so many people who had used the stuff on themselves and noticed it working, that I decided to try a couple of products to see for myself. My horse now lives in the no-bows every day. It actually worked just as well as a furacin sweat and better than poulticing at getting rid of the inflammation in his ankles and keeping it down (he has thinned cartilage in his front fetlocks) and made a huge difference when compared to using regular no bows with no medications. (I did my own control LOL) | |
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| I have the demo currently and let's just say that I will be giving it back... I don't really know how to prove that it IS working, for one. Also, my horse won't have anything to do with it. She jumps off of it. Lastly, I frankly don't have the time or energy to get out there 3 times a day for 20 minutes. The lameness vet at A&M didn't recommend it so I'm trusting all of his schooling on this one (: | |
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Forever Tan
Posts: 2925
Location: Wisconsin | achildres - 2014-05-29 1:40 PM
I have the demo currently and let's just say that I will be giving it back... I don't really know how to prove that it IS working, for one. Also, my horse won't have anything to do with it. She jumps off of it. Lastly, I frankly don't have the time or energy to get out there 3 times a day for 20 minutes. The lameness vet at A&M didn't recommend it so I'm trusting all of his schooling on this one (:
I so agree with this post...
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