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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
 
Location: Oklahoma | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-13 10:02 PM I try and avoid alfalfa as the first ingredient. I have switched to buckeye it is pricey but I feed a maintenance dose, so one bag lasts me about a month per horse. The NSC is 13% the protein is 16% and far is less then 5 (this is all off the top of my head). I add flax to increase the fat content. Sometimes the required amount of the cheaper feed is more expensive in the long run.
May I ask why? Is it because of Alfalfa is a more expensive hay? Just curious! | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
 
| winwillows - 2014-07-15 12:14 PM
As to worst ingredients, in my opinion, and only my opinion. animal protein byproducts (could be hydrolyzed poultry feathers, pig hair or something else to raise protein number), forage byproducts (could be chopped corn stocks or corn cobs with next to no value), most kinds of hulls, corn.
Least cost formulations that don't really tell you on the tag exactly what the ingredients are but use the "vague description". Alfalfa as the first ingredient, (nothing wrong with alfalfa, but in this application it is the most expensive hay you can buy). When working on a performance horse diet I try to move people away from all of the above, whether they are going to use my product or not.
What are your thoughts on beet pulp? I bought a bag from TSC and after a day in the feed room, it reeked of chemical smells. I only had alfalfa pellets and cubes in there with it. Never smelled that smell with just them in there. But alot of people really like it. I wonder if I just got a bad bag?
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| I feed mostly oats. The NSC on it, must be really high. Your making me rethink that approach. | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 330
| The NSC of oats varies SLIGHTLY by the form you feed, but yes, oats are quite high in NSC. | |
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  More bootie than waist!
Posts: 18425
Location: Riding Crackhead. | Bigfoot - 2014-07-15 12:51 PM I feed mostly oats. The NSC on it, must be really high. Your making me rethink that approach.
I used to feed only oats until I researched the starch content. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | A few answers.
First, I don't care for alfalfa in feed concentrates simply because it is mostly just a filler in those formulations. I like some alfalfa in a diet but also like to keep the amount of added feed concentrate as low as I can. In that case you are usually not getting much benefit from alfalfa as an ingredient in the added feed, but paying a lot for what you are getting with it. If you want or need alfalfa in your horses diet, just add some as cubes, pellets or long hay, don't pay a lot more to get it as a filler in your concentrate.
On the Beet Pulp question. It should not smell like chemicals. There are some good applications for beet pulp but I would take that bag back.
On oats and NSC, I sometimes use oats in a diet. Stingray eats one pound of oats per day, not for performance energy, but rather to adjust her blood sugar level to give Sherry the exact attitude that she wants. The NSC is high (about 50%) but most horses will digest several pounds per day without issues. If you are feeding a lot of oats, there is more efficiency to be found with a different program. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| winwillows - 2014-07-15 1:26 PM
A few answers.
First, I don't care for alfalfa in feed concentrates simply because it is mostly just a filler in those formulations. I like some alfalfa in a diet but also like to keep the amount of added feed concentrate as low as I can. In that case you are usually not getting much benefit from alfalfa as an ingredient in the added feed, but paying a lot for what you are getting with it. If you want or need alfalfa in your horses diet, just add some as cubes, pellets or long hay, don't pay a lot more to get it as a filler in your concentrate.
On the Beet Pulp question. It should not smell like chemicals. There are some good applications for beet pulp but I would take that bag back.
On oats and NSC, I sometimes use oats in a diet. Stingray eats one pound of oats per day, not for performance energy, but rather to adjust her blood sugar level to give Sherry the exact attitude that she wants. The NSC is high (about 50%) but most horses will digest several pounds per day without issues. If you are feeding a lot of oats, there is more efficiency to be found with a different program.
Thank you. :) | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| Longneck - 2014-07-15 12:32 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-13 10:02 PM I try and avoid alfalfa as the first ingredient. I have switched to buckeye it is pricey but I feed a maintenance dose, so one bag lasts me about a month per horse. The NSC is 13% the protein is 16% and far is less then 5 (this is all off the top of my head). I add flax to increase the fat content. Sometimes the required amount of the cheaper feed is more expensive in the long run.
May I ask why? Is it because of Alfalfa is a more expensive hay? Just curious!
Alfalfa has a high NSC, which means when it gets to the hind gut, it has fermented and can cause a shift in ph which can cause acidosis especially in horses that can't handle the sugar, such as foundered, laminitic, ulcer prone ( I do know they say alfalfa can decrease ulcers due to calcium levels), and Cushing horses | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-15 2:32 PM Longneck - 2014-07-15 12:32 PM cheryl makofka - 2014-07-13 10:02 PM I try and avoid alfalfa as the first ingredient. I have switched to buckeye it is pricey but I feed a maintenance dose, so one bag lasts me about a month per horse. The NSC is 13% the protein is 16% and far is less then 5 (this is all off the top of my head). I add flax to increase the fat content. Sometimes the required amount of the cheaper feed is more expensive in the long run. May I ask why? Is it because of Alfalfa is a more expensive hay? Just curious! Alfalfa has a high NSC, which means when it gets to the hind gut, it has fermented and can cause a shift in ph which can cause acidosis especially in horses that can't handle the sugar, such as foundered, laminitic, ulcer prone ( I do know they say alfalfa can decrease ulcers due to calcium levels ), and Cushing horses
Thanks!! | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | Actually, alfalfa, both as hay or cubes, is lower in NSC than grass hay or grass pasture. Alfalfa typically runs 9% to 11% NSC while grass hays and grass pasture will typically run higher, from 12 % to 14% NSC depending on maturity. Both safe in the hind gut if fed properly. Personally, I like a mix of the two. My point in not wanting it as a filler in a concentrate is that i feel it does not contribute much compared to feeding the same amount of alfalfa as cubes or long hay for a lot less per pound of alfalfa fed. | |
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Rad Dork
Posts: 5218
Location: Oklahoma | winwillows - 2014-07-15 3:34 PM Actually, alfalfa, both as hay or cubes, is lower in NSC than grass hay or grass pasture. Alfalfa typically runs 9% to 11% NSC while grass hays and grass pasture will typically run higher, from 12 % to 14% NSC depending on maturity. Both safe in the hind gut if fed properly. Personally, I like a mix of the two. My point in not wanting it as a filler in a concentrate is that i feel it does not contribute much compared to feeding the same amount of alfalfa as cubes or long hay for a lot less per pound of alfalfa fed.
Thanks,
I currently feed Alfalfa Timothy cubes and Alfalfa is the main ingredient in my feed (Bluebonnet Omega Force, getting about 4 lbs/day)... is that too much alfalfa? | |
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 A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | cheryl makofka - 2014-07-15 3:32 PM
Longneck - 2014-07-15 12:32 PM
cheryl makofka - 2014-07-13 10:02 PM I try and avoid alfalfa as the first ingredient. I have switched to buckeye it is pricey but I feed a maintenance dose, so one bag lasts me about a month per horse. The NSC is 13% the protein is 16% and far is less then 5 (this is all off the top of my head). I add flax to increase the fat content. Sometimes the required amount of the cheaper feed is more expensive in the long run.
May I ask why? Is it because of Alfalfa is a more expensive hay? Just curious!
Alfalfa has a high NSC, which means when it gets to the hind gut, it has fermented and can cause a shift in ph which can cause acidosis especially in horses that can't handle the sugar, such as foundered, laminitic, ulcer prone ( I do know they say alfalfa can decrease ulcers due to calcium levels ), and Cushing horses
Alfalfa, as hay or as cubes, etc, does not have a high NSC content. Especially when compared to cereal grains like corn, oats, and barley.
I will NOT feed corn. Period. Never. Too much sugar and it's just too high in omega 6s. I don't need to cause inflammation where it's definitely not wanted.
I avoid anything with the blanket ingredients, like forage products, plant protein byproducts, animal protein byproduct, etc. It's just too vague. You have no idea what you're getting bag to bag and some horses may not be sensitive to that, but I'm certain many are.
I like Triple Crown feeds. No, they're not perfect, but I can read the ingredients and know what they are or at least their purpose. Beet pulp, soybean meal, oats, alfalfa meal, soybean oil, etc. Yes, oats are high in NSC, but in a controlled ration, they're not terrible. I feed the Complete to my running horse, which is 21% NSC content, which is low considering it has raw oats in it.
I don't have the time or expertise to make my own custom ration. So I trust in Triple Crown Nutrition to do it for me. And they haven't let me down yet. I love my feed.
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A Lady with Fight
Posts: 2701
Location: NC | Longneck - 2014-07-15 4:48 PM
winwillows - 2014-07-15 3:34 PM Actually, alfalfa, both as hay or cubes, is lower in NSC than grass hay or grass pasture. Alfalfa typically runs 9% to 11% NSC while grass hays and grass pasture will typically run higher, from 12 % to 14% NSC depending on maturity. Both safe in the hind gut if fed properly. Personally, I like a mix of the two. My point in not wanting it as a filler in a concentrate is that i feel it does not contribute much compared to feeding the same amount of alfalfa as cubes or long hay for a lot less per pound of alfalfa fed.
Thanks,
I currently feed Alfalfa Timothy cubes and Alfalfa is the main ingredient in my feed (Bluebonnet Omega Force, getting about 4 lbs/day)... is that too much alfalfa?
That's not too much at all. Considering you're not feeding pure alfalfa at any given time, and horses fed straight alfalfa usually do just fine, I think you're ok.
I would think most horses fed alfalfa as their hay source get a good 10-30lbs of it a day, I don't think some cubes and feed are too much. :)
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | CYA Ranch - 2014-07-15 12:21 PM Bigfoot - 2014-07-15 12:51 PM I feed mostly oats. The NSC on it, must be really high. Your making me rethink that approach. I used to feed only oats until I researched the starch content.
This is what changed us too. We can get them fairly cheap and they are clean and we still take a 2gal bucket out to the 6 mares when we check on them. They each get a mouthful so I don't see what it hurts. Just enough to make them think that coming to see us is the best idea. | |
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The Advice Guru
Posts: 6419
| winwillows - 2014-07-15 3:34 PM
Actually, alfalfa, both as hay or cubes, is lower in NSC than grass hay or grass pasture. Alfalfa typically runs 9% to 11% NSC while grass hays and grass pasture will typically run higher, from 12 % to 14% NSC depending on maturity. Both safe in the hind gut if fed properly. Personally, I like a mix of the two. My point in not wanting it as a filler in a concentrate is that i feel it does not contribute much compared to feeding the same amount of alfalfa as cubes or long hay for a lot less per pound of alfalfa fed.
Not necessarily lower then grass hay, and grass it depends on geographical location, time of day, and time of year.
In our area speaking with a vet and equine nutritionist, both say alfalfa is too high in sugar to give PSSM, and foundered horses, grass it is safe to let them graze in the fall, and during the summer in certain parts of the day during the summer, and I can't remember when. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1695
Location: Willows, CA | My point was not about laminitis or PSSM horses, but that the NSC levels in alfalfa in general compared to grass hay, in general was not disruptive to the hind gut or a reason not to use it in a normal healthy horses diet at some level. There may be other reasons, but fear of high NSC and resulting hind gut acidosis from that should not be one of them. This has moved way off topic and I appologise. | |
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