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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
 
Location: IL | Okay, so I have been having a bit of trouble with my 6 year old mare trying to start her turns too soon & shouldering the barrel. Got someone to video me high loping her so that I could see what her back end was doing coming into the barrel as I suspected that she was start to kick her hip to the outside coming into the turns, hence the shouldering. Lo and behold, I was correct! Okay so I know what the problem is and normally I'd take her back down to a walk again, stop at the rate point, and exaggerate pushing that hip back to the inside. But, everybody and their uncle says to NEVER stop a ratey horse at the barrel, to keep them moving forward. So do I walk to the barrel, and push the hip to the inside at our rate point, but keep her moving forwards?
Thoughts? Drills? Suggestions? Snarky comments? I'm open to it all! 
Edited by TACKyPaints 2014-08-14 9:46 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2685
  
| snarky comments XD
Personally I would do your slow work just make sure that when you stop her you do it when her hip is even with the barrel. That way your not asking her to rate real early but you do need to be able to do your whatever to fix it. |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| Seems like Charmayne explained that in one of her columns in BHN. And that is what she said. Just riding around pick a spot and walk straight to it, as soon as you feel that shoulder drift in, push the hip to the inside instead of messing with her shoulder. That would straighten her back up. Then you would do the same thing on the pattern. |
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 Extreme Veteran
Posts: 559
| I have the exact same problem .. But my mare had a bad habit of it for years before I got her .. It's a bad habit to break after that long !! I'd love to hear opinions as well :) I hear the Connie combs squares exercise is good for that. |
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  Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | I have never heard of kicking one's hip "out" at the barrel. But then I am old and old fashioned. I am interested in the responses you get. |
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 Owner of a ratting catting machine
Posts: 2258
| I might have some ideas for you!
A) Get stifles, hocks and front feet examined. Get teeth checked too. You know the drill.
B) spend time away from the pattern manipulating the hip from the ground and in the saddle. Slow work at a walk and a trot moving the hip (disengaging to the outside, pushing the hip into the arc with your outside foot, fishtailing hip in a straight line etc). Just get so you can move that hip wherever you want at any speed. I especially want to be able to bump my horses with my outside foot going into a barrel turn to keep their hind end engaged.
C) when you do your pattern work, quit tinkering with the face. At most, you want to lightly tip the nose into the turn while you bump with your outside foot. When you mess with their face, they lose a little momentum, then you're sunk!
D) keep your horse off the barrel 10-15 feet during slow work. This distance will shrink up in a run, I promise. This helps them open back up. Also, tons of long trotting to help them stretch and reach can help. I've never had a really great place to breeze one, but I've heard that can help scotchy horses.
The secret is in the hip. |
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 Balance Beam and more...
Posts: 11511
Location: 31 lengths farms | sorrel horse ranch - 2014-08-15 3:29 PM
I have never heard of kicking one's hip "out" at the barrel. But then I am old and old fashioned. I am interested in the responses you get.
I dont' think she was trying to kick the hip out, I think the mare was moving her hip over on her own and she was looking for some drills to bring it back into alignment coming into the barrel with out over working the rate part of it as the mare sounds like she may be ratey to boot. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | run n rate - 2014-08-14 6:06 PM sorrel horse ranch - 2014-08-15 3:29 PM I have never heard of kicking one's hip "out" at the barrel. But then I am old and old fashioned. I am interested in the responses you get. I dont' think she was trying to kick the hip out, I think the mare was moving her hip over on her own and she was looking for some drills to bring it back into alignment coming into the barrel with out over working the rate part of it as the mare sounds like she may be ratey to boot.
Exactly what I meant! :) I guess "swinging the hip out" would have been a better explanation? I definitely want that hip pushed to the inside so that inside hock is up underneath her in the turn. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | classicpotatochip - 2014-08-14 5:47 PM I might have some ideas for you! A) Get stifles, hocks and front feet examined. Get teeth checked too. You know the drill. B) spend time away from the pattern manipulating the hip from the ground and in the saddle. Slow work at a walk and a trot moving the hip (disengaging to the outside, pushing the hip into the arc with your outside foot, fishtailing hip in a straight line etc). Just get so you can move that hip wherever you want at any speed. I especially want to be able to bump my horses with my outside foot going into a barrel turn to keep their hind end engaged. C) when you do your pattern work, quit tinkering with the face. At most, you want to lightly tip the nose into the turn while you bump with your outside foot. When you mess with their face, they lose a little momentum, then you're sunk! D) keep your horse off the barrel 10-15 feet during slow work. This distance will shrink up in a run, I promise. This helps them open back up. Also, tons of long trotting to help them stretch and reach can help. I've never had a really great place to breeze one, but I've heard that can help scotchy horses. The secret is in the hip.
Thanks for the great advice! :)
She's been fully checked over earlier this summer by a good lameness vet and I had her teeth checked this spring so I know that's checked off the list.
I'm going to start going back and working on moving her hip at the walk and trot again. That's something I worked a lot on before I started patterning her, but thinking about it, I haven't worked on it much in our flatwork sessions. Time to dust that one off and start working on it again! :)
Then you're sunk! I love that! haha! As for her face, she is one that does not like her face messed with. I can very lightly pick up a bit and get her nose tipped but anymore than that and she gets fussy. You can mess with her all day long doing flatwork, but for some reason on pattern work, especially now that we're high loping instead of just going slow, she gets kinda fussy. So at the walk and trot, I've just been trying to guide her with my legs & seat, and not touching her face. She does very well at the walk and trot in regards to that, but speed things up, and it starts coming apart a bit.
I've wondered if I should really exaggerate the size of my circles around the barrels while working her. I think I might have to try this. I've been leaving my pattern set up in the arena but instead of doing the pattern, I've been doing all lefts or all rights, as well as picking a barrel and spiraling in & out around the barrel. She does this really well. But put her on the actual pattern & it's almost like she tries too dang hard.
This mare is an OTTB, and when asked for speed, she gives it by golly! Would you suggest I still try and breeze her a bit? Even if just down the long side of the arena?
Thanks again for the great advice! I'm going to start doing a LOT more hip work with her again. Supposed to be getting a lot of rain here in the next couple of days, so we'll be stuck inside our small indoor, that will give us something to focus on doing in there!! Thank you!!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | Edited my topic title so better convey what I mean! :) |
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Expert
Posts: 2685
| Random but I have a question. What but do you ride her in? I have one that is like 95% seasoned that needs just a touch of lift but gets fussy too |
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Veteran
Posts: 238
| I was having this problem with my naturally ratey mare that was started on pattern in Jan. After taking care of health issues (teeth, chiro etc.) I got into some lessons and found that I was rating and turning her too soon. I needed to separate my rate and turn. Rate a stride away, turn cue after her hip is by the barrel.
Made a world of difference. Now I just need to work on riding consistently.
There is a thread on here I started about Mayish? It has several videos and you can see what was happening on the second. I haven't updated. |
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Angel in a Sorrel Coat
Posts: 16030
Location: In a happy place | Yes I understand better. I will try to explain how Wanda Bush taught one to keep their hip in. Ride to the barrel....walk trot or lope....when your leg gets even with the barrel stop your horse saying whoa and all in one smooth movement take your outside foot behind the back girth and move the hip inside and you can use your outside rein to also help the hip move over. Let them sit there for a moment and then ride forward around the barrel. I hope that is clearer than mud. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 602
| Try the square exercise. It really helped my horse out. I only did it at a walk and trot and I saw great results within 2 weeks. Here's the link below.
http://www.conniecombs.com/DrilloftheMonth[1].pdf |
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 Expert
Posts: 2457
| Totally been there!
Here's what made a world of difference for me ... Deana K. explains it really well in videos on YouTube if my crummy explanation doesn't make sense.
Walk trot or lope to something (barrel, pole, weed in the pasture) - sit and rate while keeping forward momentum, then ask for an even/balanced turn after your own leg/hip moves past your obstacle. Then after you make that circle, look up for wherever you are going next and push the hip to the inside of your sight line. Two things to remember ... sit on your outside pocket to really help push the hip up and under the horse and don't stop asking for the hip until the horse crosses their back legs and exaggerates the movement after you turn the barrel.
Working this as a warm up movement really helped my mare remember to "keep herself together" around barrels.
Good Luck! It will come together and you can do it!!!
ETA - spelling. ACK!!!
Edited by lindseylou2290 2014-08-15 9:50 AM
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 Veteran
Posts: 239
| I will be the odd man out LOL and also suggest the shoulder, and, working on the issue at speed also. While I do agree that working hip control will help sometimes you need to look at the shoulder too. I have the exact same problem with my horse on the 2nd barrel and she is very ratey .... at slow work no problem but at speed is where the issue shows up, so I had to fix it at a pony lope.
1. Hip control, like everyone else has said. I found that she was slinging her butt out because her ribs were stuck to the inside. So I took her out on a bigger circle and practiced 2 tracking with her head bent to the inside...you keep some tension on outside rein to keep her outside shoulder from bulging out but as you are walking your circle, you push the hip to the inside so they are walking like a "C" in a circle. This will force the ribs out, which helps keep the hip in, because if the ribs are in, there is no room for the inside hind to come up. This one took me forever to get...you will have to be patient and accept one step at a time but I found this helped hip control a lot.
2. SHOULDERS. A lot of the time with my mare anyway she was not moving her shoulder therefore she had to move her hip out. So I had to make sure her shoulders were moving snappier. I practice walking around and moving her shoulders over, walk two steps move shoulder over, etc. I get my horses so that when the neck rein goes on they move their shoulder over in a hurry. Then on the barrel, I will make sure to run BY, then when I am on the backside I move their shoulders whichever way I want them to turn (for my 2nd barrel which is to the right, I run by and spin her to the right) a full circle, then proceed around the barrel. When you spin them on the backside past the barrel this gets them moving past it too and not wanting to set up early. I found this gets them really snappy on the backside and with her again I found the more mobile I had her shoulders the more willing she was to keep that hip under her. If they don't move their shoulders to turn, then they move their hip around their shoulder instead and that is where they sling them to the outside.
Hope that made some kind of sense. Hard to type it out, LOL good luck!! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | Sorry, I am just getting on here now to check the responses. We are in the middle of renovating our house & I swear there are never enough hours in a day to get everything done!
Thank you all for the great advice you have given me! I'm going to start trying everything that you all suggested and see what works best for us! I want to get this fixed as quick as possible because she has a ton of potential to be a really awesome barrel horse and she tries so hard. Now, I just need to do her justice & train/ride her correctly!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1032
Location: IL | RoaniePonie11 - 2014-08-15 7:29 AM Random but I have a question. What but do you ride her in? I have one that is like 95% seasoned that needs just a touch of lift but gets fussy too
I am riding her in a short shank Sherry Cervi with a twisted wire dogbone mouth. I love that bit! |
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 Chasin my Dream
Posts: 13651
Location: Alberta |
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