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  Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
  
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | For those that have used this, my horse was a 2 on the SAG 1, 5, 6 and CRP/Lyme Titer was 22 ?/ml. From what I can understand it shows from these results that he doesn't have EPM. I wasn't sure, the vets didn't think so (so didn't think it was worth a spinal tap), but for what they recommend it says Use Origin to dertermine treatment response, then recheck 10 days post treatment. I hate to dump more money into this kind of treatment, when his tendon/ligament issue may be more what I want to work on. Just some of his prior symptoms made me want to rule out EPM. |
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 Texas Taco
Posts: 7499
 
Location: Bandera, TX | I probably wouldn't treat for EPM at this point. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Thank you. I'm kind of thinking all his other symptoms came from his hidden front leg injury that caused his back to be out of whack from the over compensating. I didn't think he had anything going on with that foot after the first vet dismissed it as nothing, so I sent him off for more riding. He came back looking like death warmed over about 8 days later. The trainer said he wasn't the same horse he rode earlier for me, but he also couldn't find anything lame about him. So a 2nd vet found the ligament deal but didn't feel his back end weakness was EPM. The 3rd vet that pulled his blood didn't know, he doesn't know this horse that well, but agreed to do a blood test for me. So that is that. I am kind of relieved, I just hope once the front leg is healed that I have my horse back. The one that was so great to ride this spring. |
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 Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | I agree. I would not treat with that low of numbers on the Sag test. |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 600
Location: Oklahoma & Texas | Your horse was probably exposed at some pt reason for the low titer - only thing i would watch is with an injury sometimes EPM can develop later on - since a weakend immune system from an injury is one of the leading preceptors to EPM... i would just retest in a few months... make sure that titer doesn't go up... an ounce of prevention with EPM will save you big time in the long run - if they did by chance have a higher titer next test - you could treat and not have to wait until EPM shows its ugly face w/worse symptoms that somtimes can't be undone. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | BBrewster - 2014-08-26 2:33 PM Your horse was probably exposed at some pt reason for the low titer - only thing i would watch is with an injury sometimes EPM can develop later on - since a weakend immune system from an injury is one of the leading preceptors to EPM... i would just retest in a few months... make sure that titer doesn't go up... an ounce of prevention with EPM will save you big time in the long run - if they did by chance have a higher titer next test - you could treat and not have to wait until EPM shows its ugly face w/worse symptoms that somtimes can't be undone.
so even with a 2 that means he has been exposed? He came out of OR where I guess they have some EPM. Here in WY it is pretty much un heard of. Mostly shows up in horses bought from out of state. So it should be a 0 on a horse that has never been exposed? That may sound dumb, I'm new to the whole EPM thing. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 907
Location: a secret | Can someone please explain the sag to me and the titers what's normal etc...
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | HotPants - 2014-08-26 4:41 PM Can someone please explain the sag to me and the titers what's normal etc...
on the SAG, I think someone once mentioned that over 6 needs treated. |
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 Premier Producer
Posts: 3770
Location: Checotah OK | My vet explained anything over 2 with clinical signs also is + EPM on SAG |
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 You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | I wouldn't be concerned yet. My mare was a 16 on the EPM pathogenes titer.
When they do a titer test, they use a series of dilutions. A 2 means at their lowest dilution they picked up antibodies but they didnt pick up anything at a dilution greater than that. a titer of 16 for example means that when they dilute the sample 16 times they can still pick up antibodies.
However, with EPM things can be so relative… My mare had a titer of 16 but didn't have any ataxia. She just was running not like herself and she didn't hold her weight very well. Other horses can have a low titer and be very symptomatic. If your horse isn't showing any signs of EPM- like ataxia, atrophy, cranial nerve deficits, etc, then I would not treat either. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | casualdust07 - 2014-08-26 5:30 PM I wouldn't be concerned yet. My mare was a 16 on the EPM pathogenes titer. When they do a titer test, they use a series of dilutions. A 2 means at their lowest dilution they picked up antibodies but they didnt pick up anything at a dilution greater than that. a titer of 16 for example means that when they dilute the sample 16 times they can still pick up antibodies. However, with EPM things can be so relative… My mare had a titer of 16 but didn't have any ataxia. She just was running not like herself and she didn't hold her weight very well. Other horses can have a low titer and be very symptomatic. If your horse isn't showing any signs of EPM- like ataxia, atrophy, cranial nerve deficits, etc, then I would not treat either.
His atrophy was right over the croup down to his tail head. He was also having a growth spurt at the time and ribby when I sent him off to be ridden. Trainer called and I went and got him 8 days later because he just wasn't right. When I picked him up he looked awful. I also think the other horses in the pasture were picking on him, maybe running him off feed. I had the vet appt the next week and he still had the weight/muscle loss. As soon as I picked him up, he started to get beet and alfalfa pellets and Amplify am and pm as well as all the grass hay he can eat. He picked up weight fast. So vets didn't think EPM from the atrophy. It is just bugging me because I don't know if that front leg could cause all the rest of the issues. |
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 Ms. Poutability
Posts: 2362
Location: In my own world | Your horses issues could very well be due to the missed lameness. However do not discount the possibility of EPM. My mare did not test high on the titer test but after almost 2 yrs of loosing weight and muscle within a week of being at a trainer and having mild hind end weakness I treated for EPM and she made a 180 turn around. I'm new to EPM too. It's a crappy club but welcome!! |
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Expert
Posts: 3514
| I would get him on a good immune builder. |
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You get what you give
Posts: 13030
Location: Texas | you could also test again with the UC Davis test. It's more expensive though.
Or you could just sit tight and not treat, and retest in two weeks to see if his titer is rising, falling, or staying the same. If you are just getting the start of an EPM infection they could have a low titer when you first test and then it could climb as it progresses. Likewise, if you are at the tail end of an infection the horse has managed well itself, you could have a low titer because its almost over with. And if he doesn't have it at all you should expect the same value as last time.
However- atrophy from EPM doesn't fill back in on its own with feed, so if it is getting better with better feed and more calories, then its most likely not neurogenic atrophy from EPM. My mare didn't have atrophy the first time around, and I treated with Oroquin… months later I had my vet out because she was shaking her head a lot, and he found atrophy on her masseter muscle. We treated with Marquis the second time and the atrophy did fill in over time, but that doesn't always happen. |
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Lady Di
Posts: 21556
Location: Oklahoma | I have a copy of a SAG Elisa Results and Consult sheet right in front of me that was done on one of my horses. At the bottom it says: "If the titer is greater than 4Â then there are antibodies to Sarcocystis neurona present in this sample. Â If no antibodies are detected and signs are consistent with EPM, then a response to treatment with a rise in titer supports a diagnosis of EPM. Â A C-reactive protein is an acute phase, non-specific inflammatory marker. Â With a CRP of greater than 10, then it is elevated."
Since your horse had a high CRP, but a low titer, I would suspect that the inflammatory response is coming from the injury and NOT EPM. Â However, the treatment here is $200, and it doesn't hurt them....in laymen's terms it's a combination of a couple of wormers that previously have not been used on horses. Â So if you positively want to rule out EPM, I'd go ahead and treat with the Orogin-10 and then if you see an improvement in your horse, you will know it was more than likely EPM. Â If you see no improvement, then it isn't EPM. Â However, I don't treat any horses with a titer of 4 or lower.
Edited by dianeguinn 2014-08-27 9:50 AM
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | dianeguinn - 2014-08-27 8:46 AM I have a copy of a SAG Elisa Results and Consult sheet right in front of me that was done on one of my horses. At the bottom it says: "If the titer is greater than 4 then there are antibodies to Sarcocystis neurona present in this sample. If no antibodies are detected and signs are consistent with EPM, then a response to treatment with a rise in titer supports a diagnosis of EPM. A C-reactive protein is an acute phase, non-specific inflammatory marker. With a CRP of greater than 10, then it is elevated."
Since your horse had a high CRP, but a low titer, I would suspect that the inflammatory response is coming from the injury and NOT EPM. However, the treatment here is $200, and it doesn't hurt them....in laymen's terms it's a combination of a couple of wormers that previously have not been used on horses. So if you positively want to rule out EPM, I'd go ahead and treat with the Orogin-10 and then if you see an improvement in your horse, you will know it was more than likely EPM. If you see no improvement, then it isn't EPM. However, I don't treat any horses with a titer of 4 or lower.
Thank you for the explanation. Lot to know about this darn stuff. |
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 Pork Fat is my Favorite
Posts: 3791
Location: The Oklahoma plains. | Well I am by NO means any kind of expert. I am actually dealing with our first suspect EPM horse. Anyhow, I thought there were like 90 strands of protozoa that it could be and this test only marks two?? Also, I will say that front leg soreness can very well be a symptom and also the way you describe the horses bad transistion at the trainers also seems suspect to me. As any change on a EPM horse (such as hauling, new home, training ect) causes way more reaction than on a normal horse. Again, I have only watched and observed for a few years taking notes until recently when our horse became symptomatic. We had two vets say he darn sure looks nueorlogic and recently treated him to no avail. We are now trying the blood test with this Florida lab on this non FDA compounded drug. I am not even sure she is a vet but we are on our last hope for this nice colt. |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | TurnLane - 2014-08-28 9:53 AM Well I am by NO means any kind of expert. I am actually dealing with our first suspect EPM horse. Anyhow, I thought there were like 90 strands of protozoa that it could be and this test only marks two?? Also, I will say that front leg soreness can very well be a symptom and also the way you describe the horses bad transistion at the trainers also seems suspect to me. As any change on a EPM horse (such as hauling, new home, training ect) causes way more reaction than on a normal horse. Again, I have only watched and observed for a few years taking notes until recently when our horse became symptomatic. We had two vets say he darn sure looks nueorlogic and recently treated him to no avail. We are now trying the blood test with this Florida lab on this non FDA compounded drug. I am not even sure she is a vet but we are on our last hope for this nice colt.
hmm. Maybe for the couple hundred, I should just try and treat? My chiro canceled wed due to hurting his back and rescheduled for sometime next week. I was hoping to get his opinion before treating. |
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