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Expert
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| OhMax - 2015-04-23 8:47 AM I think it depends entirely on the horse. I am not anti-anything if my vet and I agree it's the right thing for that horse. I struggle a bit with getting injection crazy on young horses - if you're injecting at 4 or 5 what are you going to be doing by the time the horse is 9 or 10? I struggle with injecting more than 2x's a year, if the horse is soring up again that quickly, I don't think it is fair to keep them going down the road. I struggle with injecting multiple joints multiple times a year. Again, if that's needed, is this the right job for the horse? At the same time, I'd never had a 1D or rodeo competitive horse to keep going down the road who was otherwise happy and healthy - but the welfare of the animal comes first.
You will have a mentally and physically happy horse that does his job and will last into his late twenties running because you took care of him. I personally have 2 in the field retired sound that were injected as 3 yr olds that will still flex sound, have decently clean xrays, and are fat n sassy....they are 25 and 27. | |
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| Tn_Barrelracer - 2015-04-22 2:35 PM
I just attended a clinic a few weekends ago and it AMAZED me the number of people riding around with THREE LEGGED LAME horses ! That is inexcusable ! I am not in it for the money either but if my $25,000 4yo needs injected to give her that next half a second off and she's TELLING me she is sore I'm not going to turn her out for a year and start all over. I have always injected and run them well into their late teen years with no problems. I guess I'm not understanding what people think it hurts?
I attended a clinic in November. Before I went I had my horse injected so that we could work on my problems not hers. The Lifewave patch guy was there evaluating horses for soreness. I think he was amazed that my horse was not sore at all.
Yes, I was amazed at the number of horses that were sore and really could not work because of it. | |
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  Queen Boobie 2
Posts: 7521
| Bibliafarm - 2015-04-22 6:42 PM
I inject.. I sedate.. Im not anti inject.. I just dont feel that people should judge or be harsh on ones that dont its their horse.. yes many are sore.. but its their horse..Â
"It's their horse."
Very good point. Here on the interwebs we feel comfortable passing judgement on if people inject, run barefoot, feed the "right" feed, house their horses in conditions we deem appropriate, haul their horses in conveyances we think are safe enough, fancy enough, etc. etc.
There are lots of levels to horse ownership and horse enjoyment. The owners have the right to decide the care they give.
Disclaimer: starvation or outright neglect that puts their life in danger excluded. | |
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it.
Edited by wyoming barrel racer 2015-04-23 9:00 AM
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Expert
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| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-04-23 9:58 AM
Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it.
Your right time off is the best option but putting hocks that need it back into hard work and you will still result in needing to inject just as you explained ;-) Some things yes you can avoid injection by turning out but once they are put into hard work usually bone issues return. Tendon or ligament issues yes you can heal per Dr. Hopper Rood and Riddle equine hospital.
Don't get your panties in a twist. This site is about education and research.
Horses still run in their late 20s even injected as 2 yr olds...
Also, these anti injection ppl should talk to Debbie Steinhoff about keeping an older horse healthy happy and going. Hotshot went to the vet for stumping a toe and not clocking.
I don't care what ppl do with their horses as I said more money in the purse. But don't say I care more about my happiness or having money in my pocket. I care about the mental and physical health of the horse. As trainers owners want results and get upset when they don't see them. Some refuse to inject just ask you to be harder on their horse....won't do it I'll send them home.
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| wyoming barrel racer - 2015-04-23 8:58 AM
Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it.
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 Not Afraid to Work
Posts: 4717
| I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance.
However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection.
What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections.
And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? | |
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 Twin Sister to Queen Boobie
Posts: 13315
Location: East Tennessee but who knows?! | OhMax - 2015-04-23 7:47 AM I think it depends entirely on the horse. I am not anti-anything if my vet and I agree it's the right thing for that horse. I struggle a bit with getting injection crazy on young horses - if you're injecting at 4 or 5 what are you going to be doing by the time the horse is 9 or 10? I struggle with injecting more than 2x's a year, if the horse is soring up again that quickly, I don't think it is fair to keep them going down the road. I struggle with injecting multiple joints multiple times a year. Again, if that's needed, is this the right job for the horse? At the same time, I'd never had a 1D or rodeo competitive horse to keep going down the road who was otherwise happy and healthy - but the welfare of the animal comes first.
You have echoed my thoughts/questions/points on this,.especially in regards to if you're injecting on a more frequent basis what is going to happen long term, is it in the best interest of the horse, and if you can head it off and find another discipline before they get worse.
As I said earlier, the jury is still out for me which is why I think it would be interesting to hear from those that go a more holistic type route. | |
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 Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| CYA Ranch - 2015-04-23 7:35 AM outrundaizy - 2015-04-21 11:10 PM I saw a FB post by someone who has won a few good titles in her career, and to me it came off a little snobby. It was something a long the lines of "No horse of hers will ever have a needle in its joints or shoes on its feet"
Which I think is great if your horse can live happily that way. But what if your horse has navicular or something wrong with its feet? Or arthritis in its hocks or ankles? Something you can't control?
Do you just end its career? Or dope it up on pain killers? The comment made me feel bad for injecting my horses hocks, but you know what, if that's what makes him happy and as long as he loves to run barrels then why wouldn't I?
Idk what my point is with this.. Just a rant I guess
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | This is an interesting thread and debate to me. Aside from my twelve year old gelding and a teenage calf horse, my husband and I had never had anything injected. And both of them had only had it done once. We're pretty conservative on that kind of stuff.
But now I have a futurity prospect. And I would like her to make it. She was started as a two year old and predictably (based on her just growing) was a bit sore when she got home. We had her xrayed and her growth plates were really open. So based on vet recommendation we slowed down her exercise this winter riding for about 20 minutes around 3 times a week as weather allowed. We also started her on adequan. We also put her on rejuvinaide to help with the slight epiphysitis they found. She's going back to the trainer this weekend.
I didn't want her to go back and be sore so I scheduled another vet appointment and we did a full set of xrays (just xrayed hocks and stifles back in October when she got home). She's much cleaner, no more epiphysitis. But she had developed a bone spur in her left stifle and flexed just a touch off on that side. I know this could get worse through training. I listened to both my trainer's and the vet's advice and chose to inject with HA and cortisol in the stifles and then go to IRAP for maintenance. This was not an easy experience or decision for me. I had hoped to avoid it with Adequan and more rest.
Not everyone has agreed with my decision in my family but I truly did make what I thought was the best decision for the long term maintenance of my filly. I don't want her to hate her job because she's sore. And this wasn't soft tissue where rest alone would help but bone. And if the pattern is not for her then I have already thought about giving her a couple other jobs that will not be too hard on her. But if she can run I'd like to give her a chance. She is bred to do this (and genuinely loves to run). ANY job we give a horse isn't really their decision but usually giving them a job they are bred for is more likely to keep them content. I'd like for her to be content and me to be happy.
I did have my hubby video the entire procedure and played 20 questions with the vet about every drug used and the entire process. It was very education to me. I did some research too before she ever went in. I'm very excited about her future and really think this will be the best for her. I know not everyone would make the same decision and that is their prerogative. But I think it is important to consider all options, be as conservative as possible, but if they need it to continue and be comfortable, then do what needs to be done.
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Expert
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| stayceem - 2015-04-23 1:31 PM
I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance.
However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection.
What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections.
And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses?
Whats causing the horse to need injections in the knee? Conformation, shoeing, an injury?
Most knees need to be injected from injury or conformation. Never had to have a knee done because of just hard use and I've never continually had it injected. I've had chips removed and diagnosis was great after surgery.
I am against blind injecting as well, never have blindly injected. I want a picture and an accurate diagnosis. A vet with "an eye" that won't stop until we know we have fixed the problem. Is it a tendon or ligament problem? Does it originate from the point of insertion to the bone? Is it a bone issue and what is the current damage?
Osphos is really going to help people when it comes to avoiding multiple injections a year. If you have a horse that is requiring multiple injections more than twice usually your vet will start asking you ethical questions about use. I've never had a horse that needed more than twice yearly for anything and usually those were injury related or came from someone else's program and we were getting them over soreness issues from over compensation where they were hurt and the owner either didn't know it or couldn't find the source. | |
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Shelter Dog Lover
Posts: 10277
| stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance. However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection. What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections. And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? We vet checked a gelding that consistently won the 1D. At the vet he could barely lope a circle he was so cripple in his hind end. My vet pulled me aside and said I am not going to charge you but I am going to xray him so I can show the owner what is going on. He had been injected so much it was not longer getting in his joint and had calcified his soft tissues around the hock. I don't know what she gave him or how he ran like he did but I felt so sorry for him.
I have a great vet, he will use acupuncture and chiro first but if he saids we need to inject, which is not often, I inject. I will not run a sore horse and take mine in to be checked if they are showing signs of being sore, between that and a throat condition they have ( which is mainly why I go to get them scoped) I am there so much my husband refers to my vet as "the boyfriend".
Edited by rodeomom3 2015-04-23 1:24 PM
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Expert
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| rodeomom3 - 2015-04-23 2:22 PM
stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance. However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection. What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections. And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? We vet checked a gelding that consistently won the 1D. Â At the vet he could barely lope a circle he was so cripple in his hind end. Â My vet pulled me aside and said I am not going to charge you but I am going to xray him so I can show the owner what is going on. Â He had been injected so much it was not longer getting in his joint and had calcified his soft tissues around the hock. I don't know what she gave him or how he ran like he did but I felt so sorry for him. Â Â
I have a great vet, he will use acupuncture and chiro first but if he saids we need to inject, which is not often, I inject. Â I will not run a sore horse and take mine in to be checked if they are showing signs of being sore, between that and this throat condition they have I am there so much my husband refers to my vet as "the boyfriend". Â
You have an excellent "boyfriend"  | |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | astreakinchic - 2015-04-23 8:18 AM wyoming barrel racer - 2015-04-23 9:58 AM Per the best lameness vets in my area that do inject the top futurity horses around. If you want to make a horse last and still be running when they are 18, you give them TIME OFF to heal from soreness. Not inject so you can hit that next barrel race to put money in your pocket to keep YOU happy. Will I inject-sure if they really need it NOW. I injected my first horse last yr. It was a great vet and he spent hours trying to figure out where my horse was sore. Multiple trips to different vets and $1000's in vet bills. If that doesn't show that I have his best interest in mind I don't know what does. Hocks showed some changes and at that point and after an entire winter off, he still was sore to run. So we injected and it didn't fix a dang thing because he had a previous pelvis injury. Some are just too fast to think oh he/she is this age, they are sore-it couldn't possibly be because the horse was started as an early 2yr old and already loping the barrels at 3 and competing hard at 4 & 5. Those can always benefit from a break.
Point of MY rant is stop giving a **** what other people are doing with their horses-injecting or not, shoeing or not, feeding this or that, using this brand of saddle or that. If it doesn't concern you, just be HAPPY that whoever this post is about has won something...probably more than most of us have. Unless the horse is in serious pain, actually lame or starved. I don't worry about it. Your right time off is the best option but putting hocks that need it back into hard work and you will still result in needing to inject just as you explained ;- ) Some things yes you can avoid injection by turning out but once they are put into hard work usually bone issues return. Tendon or ligament issues yes you can heal per Dr. Hopper Rood and Riddle equine hospital. Don't get your panties in a twist. This site is about education and research. Horses still run in their late 20s even injected as 2 yr olds... Also, these anti injection ppl should talk to Debbie Steinhoff about keeping an older horse healthy happy and going. Hotshot went to the vet for stumping a toe and not clocking. I don't care what ppl do with their horses as I said more money in the purse. But don't say I care more about my happiness or having money in my pocket. I care about the mental and physical health of the horse. As trainers owners want results and get upset when they don't see them. Some refuse to inject just ask you to be harder on their horse....won't do it I'll send them home.
I rarely get my panties in a twist, I'm about as easy to get along with as anyone. But I very much think people over inject. I am part of the barrel world and show world and they are no better. So many people I personally know inject hocks without x rays. My horse's issues returned with time off because it never was his hocks. He is now 8 and has been ranched on from 3 to 5 and ran barrels at 5. The last vet that diagnosed his pelvis also x rayed hocks and stifles and said neither were a candidate for injections like the other vet thought. He had something in his 1st set of x rays that made him think we might as well try it and see. Both are very well respected vets and the 2nd guy is one of the best vets for injections in the tri state region. I am just saying that injectiong hocks/stifles is not a cure all. So if a person can get to the top level and win without doing so, and her horses continue to perform at that level for her, we shouldn't be bashing her for not injecting or putting shoes on. We should be asking her what her warm up, exercise and other programs are that allow her to keep her horses this healthy. It can be done, but not with all horses. That much I will acknowledge. | |
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I just read the headlines
Posts: 4483
| stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM
I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance.
However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection.
What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections.
And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses?
What scares me are the VETS that are so ready to inject without X-rays. | |
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Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | GLP - 2015-04-23 2:06 PM stayceem - 2015-04-23 12:31 PM I have had this conversation with myself a lot... I grew up riding many 1D horses who were never injected, a good friend of mine also ran a few. These were true 1D horses. Now, could they have been sore their entire life and none of us knew? Possibly ... no one could say for sure as it didnt effeect their performance. However, with that said, I bought a gelding with some front leg conformation issues and was told he would be more prone to arthritis. He is 12 this year and honestly, I have no idea what leg will need attention first when the time comes. I am sure he overcompensates in ways that I am not aware of. Depending on the changes in that joint, I will choose my course for what is best for my horse and his situation. I am not anti-injection and I am not pro-injection. What I am against are those chiropractors who demand hock injections as that is why the horse is back sore... easily could be correct but they use their knowledge to convince owners to inject and they dont go through the proper x-rays and such to confirm it. If you are going to inject, dont blindly inject. That is the only thing I have against injections. And out of my own curiosity, I had a friend start injecting her horse at 8 in his knee... he was retired at 12. It has always scared me so for those who say you can inject over and over again... please elaborate because I would like to know more. My Dad has been injected multiple times and it is no longer working for him. I assume it would be the same for horses? What scares me are the VETS that are so ready to inject without X-rays.
and the sheeples/owners that go along with it. I know we pay these people because they are expected to know more than us, but it is similar to what I see at the Dr office. They know people want answers and results now so they just hand over a prescription or vets inject etc and we go on our way. Me, not so much. I ride a lot when I am hauling and competing and I was able to tell by how my horse acted when I brushed his back, or how he started to stand a little different than normal. All this was long before he started to have issues on the pattern or when riding out in pasture. When I mentioned it on here 99% of the crowd said he probably needed injections.
So now when I see someone else asking similar questions, already tried the injection route because that seems to be the "go to", I offer my personal experience with pelvis issues. These can make a horse sore in the shoulders, back is most obvious and it trickles down to hips and hind legs. I just think we should all be more open minded and 2nd opinions are great unless the x rays just scream "inject me". | |
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