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 Jr. Detective
    
Location: Beggs, OK | All things being equal paint will almost always bring less than a quarter horse. Raising little horse babies based on colors and pedigree will ultimately guarantee that you'll be producing sale barn inventory. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| I have a solid bred paint mare that I have trained and raced for 5 years now. She got hurt and is now sound but may not stand up to running hard again (Hip and lower back injury). We are breeding her, but we are not PLANNING to sell the foal. Because there is no value in paints, unless it is an own get of DTF, FG, FWF, etc. This foal will be a grandget of FWF via a NICE FWF son, but he is only a big name locally (except his two NFR kids...those got him a tad bit on the map).
Otherwords, APHA is not a good business venture. I would personally, find a GREAT AQHA stallion, then have some HMZG mares if you want some colored foals, but then you could also dab in appaloosa if you wanted to (Fallon Taylor is making a storm running her Appaloosa gelding at rodeos...anyone else see that ugly thing? haha App hater here ;) ), but then also still have AQHA mares to make MONEY on. You got a lot of good advice here, you just have to take into consideration that not all good horses are equal in value. Papers = money. Papers matter....a lot, regardless of what anyone else wants to say. You will never sell a grade horse for the same price as a similar registered horse. | |
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 How freakish is that?
Posts: 3927
Location: Oregon | - RacingQH - 2015-09-21 10:48 AM I haven't read all of the replies so tha tmay have been said already. BUT, just because you have a horse that is homozygous for tobiano, that does NOT guarantee you a foal that has enough white for "regular papers". (SO it will be registered as solid paint bred. It would have the tobiano GENE, but not necessarily enough white for regular papers.)
Edited by crapshooter 2015-09-21 2:26 PM
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  That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Skip the incentive program's For now. Find the best trainer you can afford and prove him. Then have the best rider around ride him and win. If that seems impossible cut your losses now. If he is truly capable, the rest of this is just nonsense. | |
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 Expert
Posts: 2133
Location: Tyler, Texas | I think you have gotten some good advice, and not so good advice.
I personally breed paints.. and have some really nice ones! My babies sell every year and sell for good money each year. It really depends on the quality of mares you have. Paints have that stigma that they arents quite as good as AQHA because so many people breed just for color. All of my horses have color AND bloodlines. APHA is the second largest breed association in the US, That is definately not because there is not a market for paints...
Myself and a few other breeders have really made headway in the performance paint breeding. Not only that, we have worked with APHA to help develop programs like PBRIP that will bring additional value to the horses
I dont feel that it is a bad investment, but again thats me. I know that my program can compete with all of the paint breeders, and I dont spend millions in advertising each year just to get swallowed up like I see happen with many of the small QH breeders
Edited by LoneStar 2015-09-21 4:37 PM
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 Expert
Posts: 3782
Location: Gainesville, TX | LoneStar - 2015-09-21 4:15 PM
I think you have gotten some good advise, and not so good advice.
I personally breed paints.. and have some really nice ones! My babies sell every year and sell for GOOD money each year. It really depends on the quality of mares you have. Paints have that stigma that they arents quite as good as AQHA because so many people breed just for color. All of my horses have color AND bloodlines. APHA is the second largest breed association in the US, That is definately not because there is not a market for paints...
Myself and a few other breeders have really made headway in the performance paint breeding. Not only that, we have worked with APHA to help develop programs like PBRIP that will bring additional value to the horses
I dont feel that it is a bad investment, but again thats me. I know that my program can compete with all of the paint breeders, and I dont spend millions in advertising each year just to get swallowed up like I see happen with many of the small QH breeders
If you were going to breed paints I'd be following this model. Super nice bred studs and super nice bred mares. Prices are solid but still modest on studs and foals. You will not 'get rich quick' but you would have a respectable program.
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 Can You Hear Me Now?
Location: When you hit the middle of nowhere .. Keep driving | oija - 2015-09-21 7:52 AM
Honestly, you have gotten GOOD advice on here. It may not be what you WANT to hear, but is probably what you NEED to hear. The markets for paints is small, very small. The market for paint barrel horses is even smaller. Whether or not you agree with BHWUSA (and usually I'm inclined to at least question him), I have to side with him on this matter. Whether you buy that this is because of the new 'color' rules as he says or just because there was never much of a market doesn't matter. There just isn't much of a market. Your top race bred paints are not getting any kind of solid business because there is no market. Many of them are actually AQHA that ended up as splash paints. A good example is Awesome Chrome, an own son of First Down Dash and full brother to Okey Dokey Dale. He has a winning record as a performer AND a sire, both of race horses AND barrel horses, and they still don't fill his book. If a proven own son of First Down Dash can't stay busy, a local grandson of a few well known names is going to struggle even more. If they paint out, you will struggle to get $2000-$3000 for your foals (and if they don't paint out $1000-$2000 is more like it) and even with a $500-750 breeding fee will breed very few mares a year. If you do nothing but keep them on pasture and pasture breed, you'll save a bit on vet but your profit margin will still be very small. If you are content with this, breed on.
I am trying to get my own stud prospect bred too. But he will be an own son of DTF out of my own daughter of Shawne Bug with a very strong bottom side (she's carrying him now and yes, I've had it sexed). I've already got the three siblings before him lined up to be proven (either because I'm proving them or getting them into a home that is committed to proving them). I saw in a post on facebook that there are 67 registered stallion sons of DTF. That is a TON of competition. And there are a number of great ones like Eddie Stinson, Streaking ta Fame, and FM Radio plus up and comers like Feel the Sting to compete with. Most people would think I was mad to even consider it. I do have a very specific plan but this stud colt is going to have to EARN the right to be a stallion and not just by doing some stuff locally. And this is an AQHA stud prospect I'm thinking about who is an OWN SON of the top barrel sire and out of an OWN DAUGHTER of one of the most proven broodmare lines out there with a very strong bottom side on the dam and some very nice older brothers and sisters showing promise. And if he turns into a nice 1D horse and doesn't do any more, he'll probably be a very nice gelding sitting in the corner of my barn because 1D sons of DTF are a dime a dozen. Mine HAS to stand out. And I have a Ph.D. and very solid job and my husband has a law degree. We are both professionals with solid incomes to back up these dreams. It takes a lot of time and money to prove an excellent prospect. We don't plan on seeing ANY breeding money from him until he is likely 6-7 and then only a bit. You are talking about doing less to prove yours with only a decent prospect and having even less market. Seriously, I think a paint stud WOULD HAVE to make the NFR or do something similar for people to take much notice and you've already denied you have those nation wide goals. Honestly, if you are not going to aim that high and do it with the right level of prospect, I think you are wasting your time.
And I am NOT prejudiced against paints. I grew up riding them and actually bred a nice mare to Awesome Chrome. A nice horse is a nice horse like a previous poster said. I think they have every bit as much promise to win as quarter horses in the right hands and given the right opportunities. I will buy a nice one for myself in a heartbeat, but I won't breed them. It's just not the best business decision.
All that being said, if you forge on ahead and prove us all wrong, because weirder things have happened. Do come back and tell us "I told you so" and we will all cheer you on. Just be very very careful before you do, absolutely EYES WIDE WIDE OPEN not just open.
Exactly what she said. I have a stud and his babies are just now proving themselves ... slowly. He's cowbred. I am also looking towards the future and breeding for a stallion out of my most proven mare (Reckless dash/ Shawne Bug) who is a multiple proven producer with several offspring winning. I want the best of the best and am looking at Tres Seis, Stoli, Dash ta Fame, PYC, etc and trying to decide.
I will say her dam was bred to paints and produced a world champion but I wouldn't do it... from a business standpoint the money isn't there. And even if it's a passion you still need to help support your hobby... if it's an LLC it's a business so a profit is advisable.
As someone else said get a Q/H stud and get some paint mares... or a double registered stud. At least you can pull in the AQHA where you at least make some $$ for the foal (if it's a good foal).
Edited by ndiehl 2015-09-21 8:41 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1131
| LoneStar - 2015-09-21 5:15 PM
I think you have gotten some good advice, and not so good advice.
I personally breed paints.. and have some really nice ones! My babies sell every year and sell for good money each year. It really depends on the quality of mares you have. Paints have that stigma that they arents quite as good as AQHA because so many people breed just for color. All of my horses have color AND bloodlines. APHA is the second largest breed association in the US, That is definately not because there is not a market for paints...
Myself and a few other breeders have really made headway in the performance paint breeding. Not only that, we have worked with APHA to help develop programs like PBRIP that will bring additional value to the horses
I dont feel that it is a bad investment, but again thats me. I know that my program can compete with all of the paint breeders, and I dont spend millions in advertising each year just to get swallowed up like I see happen with many of the small QH breeders
Your program is by far the exception because you have the top QH sons that just happen to be out of fantastic paint mares, plus your broodmares *swoons*. I love your mares and stallions (If we ever want a colored paint baby out of our solid mare, your stallions are our top picks for speed breds.)
But I don't think it's fair to say that everyone can have this successful of a paint program, especially if their stallion isn't an own son of a big name QH like yours are. I love paints, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they will ever be worth as much as AQHA's are.
(and APHA needs to stop hating on the solid speed horses, my solid paint horse can run just as fast as any patterned paint horse, and it still can't go in open barrels at breed shows... /rant over. haha) | |
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 Own It and Move On
Location: The edge of no where | rachellyn80 - 2015-09-21 1:05 PM All things being equal paint will almost always bring less than a quarter horse. Raising little horse babies based on colors and pedigree will ultimately guarantee that you'll be producing sale barn inventory.
^This. Put a really good paint up against a really good QH.....and the QH will be worth more $$$. I guess if it was way underpriced and an incredibly nice horse, I'd get a paint.....otherwise, I'll always pass. I've riden a lot of them and have yet to be impressed with one. Just not a fan. | |
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 The Color Specialist
Posts: 7530
Location: Washington. (The DRY side.) | crapshooter - 2015-09-21 12:25 PM
- RacingQH - 2015-09-21 10:48 AM I haven't read all of the replies so tha tmay have been said already. BUT, just because you have a horse that is homozygous for tobiano, that does NOT guarantee you a foal that has enough white for "regular papers". (SO it will be registered as solid paint bred. It would have the tobiano GENE, but not necessarily enough white for regular papers.)
That's not very likely (that it won't have enough white to be registerable). However the homozygous paints are usually lesser quality than non homozygous because too much emphasis has been placed on color rather than raising quality horses. Plus both the sire and dam have to be tobiano which are IN GENERAL lower quality animals. Not saying there aren't some nice tobianos but when you start selecting for attributes like color you can't select by the attributes that the most important ie conformation, athletic ability, pedigree and brains.
It happens more often than people realize. Granted, you ARE more likely to get enough color for regular papers. But just because a horse is homozygous does NOT guarantee you a "regular papered" foal. Only one that carries the gene. | |
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