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 Expert
Posts: 2457
  
| BMW - 2015-11-02 5:48 PM
Hank Wiescamp did a LOT of inbreeding/line breeding and bred himself out of quarter horses and into the paint horses.
He did it very very well too, I might add. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | I am not a fan of linebreeding or inbreeding. Am I saying it shouldn't be done, no. But I wont ever do it and I think at this stage of the game you can accomplish more by outcrossing, as long as you have a consistent producing stallion.
However, I would not shy away from a really nice horse that was closely bred. If everything worked out well then the papers are of little consequence, unless you planned to breed the individual. Then I would definitely be looking for an outcross.
I suppose there is no clear right or wrong answer, only differing opinions. I am of the opinion to cross genetic diversity for a desired goal. Others feel differently and have linebreeding programs. | |
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 Guys Just Wanna Have Fun
Posts: 5530
Location: OH | Completely respect the above opinion and a strong breeding sire is the key to all. I just feel that with linebreeding you can really set the type of foals you want to raise. There was a discussion the other day about people making the same crosses and getting completely different type of offspring---when I make a cross I pretty much know ecactly what I am going to get the only variance can be color depending on which stallion I use. As usual---just my opinion.
Edited by Mighty Broke 2015-11-04 3:15 PM
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 Veteran
Posts: 224
Location: So Cal | My mare's dam came from that Weiscamp breeding... everything a few generations back has "Skip" in its name and her parents were "paternal half-siblings". I love my mare but I must say looking at her pedigree makes me think they went just a little over the top. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/streakinskippinbaybe
I don't think it's fair to compare to whether or not you would "breed" your own relative, because the whole concept of paying thousands of dollars for a stud fee and covering hundreds of mares per year doesn't (or at least shouldn't! ha) translate. | |
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  Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | The way to get a strong breeding herd is to use line and inbreeding wisely. When you have a stallion that is "strong" it's because he has pairs of genes that are the homozygous for the trait you want. Sometimes this can be achieved with little line/inbreeding but it's more unlikely and more difficult to predict. If breeding a mare that is Heterozygous or completely lacking a good quality gene for that trait, breeding to a stallion that is homozygous for it is the most reasonable way to have much of a chance to get the trait you want in the foal. It's a tool.
I read that article someone posted about full siblings being as good. I take away from that article that no you're probably not going to get another American Pharoah from the same cross. That's because full siblings might only share 50% or less of the same genes. That's because the pairs of genes are heterozygous rather than homozygous. In the same article it said the likelihood of getting another good horse is greater by going back to the same cross instead of a totally different cross. So even though we probably won't see another American Pharoah, we might see some more really good horses from that cross if it's repeated more than once.  | |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 464
| Seeing some really uneducated post here about genetics. You also can't draw any parallel between humans, and horses. How many of us, are familiar with our families genetically influenced health history 5 generations back? We can be privy to that information on a horse. If you like a trait, that trait is more likely to show up with line breeding. It's that simple. Out crossing, does stir the gene pool. You also end up with a multitude of heterozygous traits. When you randomly mate a mare, and a stud, that are hetero for everything under the sun, you get a crap shoot. I'll take a line bred/inbred horse any day. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 898
Location: Mountains of VA | Bigfoot - 2015-11-05 4:03 PM Seeing some really uneducated post here about genetics. You also can't draw any parallel between humans, and horses. How many of us, are familiar with our families genetically influenced health history 5 generations back? We can be privy to that information on a horse. If you like a trait, that trait is more likely to show up with line breeding. It's that simple. Out crossing, does stir the gene pool. You also end up with a multitude of heterozygous traits. When you randomly mate a mare, and a stud, that are hetero for everything under the sun, you get a crap shoot. I'll take a line bred/inbred horse any day.
This^^^ 100%
Don't humanize the breeding programs of animals. In order to set a type within the bloodlines, there has to be linebreeding. This is how all breeds/types are established, whether it is dogs, cattle, horses, cats, sheep, pigs, etc. Any responsible breeder WILL linebreed. It is the only way to find out what you have in the genetics and the only way to "set a type". I can think of many linebred breeding programs that have been very successful and contributed valuable genetics/animals to their breed.
How do you think breeds of any animal where established to begin with??
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 851
Location: West Texas | Line breeding is the poor mans cloning, which hasn't proved remotely successful. Please don't say all responsible breeders line breed or that one is ignorant if they don't believe in it. There is so much genetic potential out there to discover, line breeding takes much of that discovery away and why limit yourself to trying to recreate, instead of create. Limiting genetic diversity over time has negative effects. You guys have pointed to dogs? Show me a linebred, purebred that lives as long or healthy as a hybrid vigor mutt. Match all the chromosomes you want, in the end it's a dead end with decreased ruggedness to boot. Horses today are more prone to break down or be unhealthy, as ever before.
The way to not linebred to get consistency is breed two individuals with similar phenotypes and differing genotypes. i am not trying to convince anyone not to linebreed, but don't tell me that it is the only way. Line reeding has its downside and even AQHA is trying to push back, truthfully one of the last places I would think to do so.
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
From the article, "“We need to outcross,” Dr. McCue says, simply. “If we continue to use three or four sires to create most of our elite performers within a population, we will continue to decrease genetic diversity and increase inbreeding. We can only do that for so many generations before there is a problem.”
The data also suggest that the Thoroughbred might not be a significant source for genetic diversity for the modern Quarter Horse."
Edited by Tdove 2015-11-06 8:37 AM
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Tdove - 2015-11-06 4:41 AM
Line breeding is the poor mans cloning, which hasn't proved remotely successful. Please don't say all responsible breeders line breed or that one is ignorant if they don't believe in it. There is so much genetic potential out there to discover, line breeding takes much of that discovery away and why limit yourself to trying to recreate, instead of create. Limiting genetic diversity over time has negative effects. You guys have pointed to dogs? Show me a linebred, purebred that lives as long or healthy as a hybrid vigor mutt. Match all the chromosomes you want, in the end it's a dead end with decreased ruggedness to boot. Horses today are more prone to break down or be unhealthy, as ever before.
The way to not linebred to get consistency is breed two individuals with similar phenotypes and differing genotypes. i am not trying to convince anyone not to linebreed, but don't tell me that it is the only way. Line reeding has its downside and even AQHA is trying to push back, truthfully one of the last places I would think to do so.
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
http://americashorsedaily.com/the-changing-landscape-of-quarter-hor...
From the article, "“We need to outcross,” Dr. McCue says, simply. “If we continue to use three or four sires to create most of our elite performers within a population, we will continue to decrease genetic diversity and increase inbreeding. We can only do that for so many generations before there is a problem.”
The data also suggest that the Thoroughbred might not be a significant source for genetic diversity for the modern Quarter Horse."
Linebreeding has nothing in common with cloning. Not even close. But I do agree that cloning is a disaster of the first order. So far, they haven't even been able to get anything in the first generation that can perform or is genetically sound. It appears the second generation is a bust as well.
AQHA was founded on linebred and inbred horses. The seed stock for the breed is linebred or inbred except before 1940. The only exception is TB, since that's the only outcross allowed. BUT all the successful TB outcrosses have been similar in they have the same dozen or so TB's they are linebred to. There we go with the linebreeding again.
I don't think barrel horse pedigrees are at risk of becoming too linebred. I really don't. There will always be new lines that become popular and we have a dozen to pick from now as oppose to the cutting horse pedigrees of the last few decades. Five or six crosses to Doc Bar in the first 4-5 generations is a little much. They need to outcross. But to what? Some people SAY they need to breed to a TB. I've always maintained they need to find a registered quarter horse (racebred) with the characteristics of a cutting horse. He should look a lot like DB. I saw Pure D Dash in person when he was alive. I think he had the right structure and size to be an outcross for a cowhorse. If he had the mind for it. That I don't know. There are possible outcross candidates out there. They just have to find the right ones.
The problem when the quarter horse industry has outcrossed to a TB, a lot of times they pick a classic distance TB. That's NOT the right type. They have the wrong build and musculature for a cutting horse or even for a sprinting quarter horse. Then they wonder why the results are so tepid. Breeding AQHA race mares (no matter how nice they are) to Storm Cat didn't work very well and who wants to breed to a horse that couldn't perform?
Miss N Cash is the result of an outcross between two of the best horses in their respective events. Even though he was a good performer, the cutting industry didn't embrace him. They chose to stick with linebreeding to DB who himself was an outcross to the King bred mares of the day. If it doesn't work, people are not going to go there. In fact, people have proven they only breed for the moment when it comes to their pocketbook.
People can preach all they want about outcrossing. But until people start embracing the outcrosses, the people breeding them can't sell them because they don't perform. Therefore they aren't going to breed them. Simple. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | One more point. The purpose of linebreeding or inbreeding is to set the type. Then you outcross. Outcrossing = hybrid vigor. While maintaining type.
I have a close bred stallion (non DFC). Most of my mares are DFC bred, or something else totally different from him. Some have more Jet Deck but it's 4th or 5th generation.
Edited by OregonBR 2015-11-06 12:52 PM
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