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  Champ
Posts: 19623
   
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | classicpotatochip - 2016-11-21 11:30 AM
First of all, if I didn't know about the years put into the surveys, assemblies, and thousands and thousands of man hours put into getting a project like this permitted, I might be against it.
Secondly, if I didn't know that this line parallels an existing line, I might be against it.
Thirdly, if I didn't know how an HDD (horizontal directional drill) works to pull the pipe 80-90 ft below the river bed, I might be against it.
Fourthly, if I didn't know a company's response to supe up environmental and construction standards in areas of contention, I might be against it.
Fifth, if I didn't know about the hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in third party professional inspectors during construction, who insure absolute and total compliance to every industry standard, along with landowner, county, state, and federal requirement, I might be against it.
Sixth, if I hadn't personally been present during HDD activity under rivers that are the drinking water source of several major US cities, I might be against it.
Seventh, if I hadn't read and watched interviews of local Native Anericans regarding the pipeline, who basically indicated they're not concerned and they're sick of the community upheaval, I might be against it.
Eighth: If I didn't know the huge budget of maintenance, corrosion professionals, and monitoring that goes on after the line is built, I might be against it. These lines aren't just left to their own devices to leak and pump product into the surrounding area. All the whistles and bells and flashing lights go off at any change in pressure, and the emergence shut down system takes over.
Stories like this aren't about a pipeline, they're about war on American oil. People that protest here against our industry are protesting against American regulation and American cleanup and spill management practices, which are absolute. People don't get that when we buy foreign oil, there's little to NO environmental requirement. The Middle East is fine with destroying major ecosystems, at the cost of water, plants, air, and wildlife, not to mention civilian and worker safety.
I'd rather drill and transport here at home, under heavy regulations and a more principled industry, then buy oil and gas from somewhere that probably did poison somebody to get it, with no chance of remedy.
Edited to add the eighth.
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 Hugs to You
Posts: 7550
Location: In The Land of Cotton | RockinGR - 2016-11-23 1:02 PM Girls_Gotta_Jet - 2016-11-23 11:21 AM LMS - 2016-11-22 8:01 AM Bear - 2016-11-21 10:32 PM Is it true that Warren Buffet has a lot to gain financially if oil is continued to be transported by rail? Isn't BNSF rail owned by Berkshire Hathaway? Most oil is transported by rail. Why would Obama want to delay or block the development of these pipelines? Doesn't this make you want to follow the money? Your question is answered with a simple google search. I realize many things online are not true, however, if BNSF was less occupied with oil tankers our farmers could transport their grain much easier-I haven't been by too many elevators in ND that don't have a huge pile of grain sitting outside their elevators. Point being there is soooo many facets to this story and so much outside help to the protestors I think it would honestly make our heads spin-just how deeply rooted much of this unrest is! I sincerely hope that this is "resolved" without someone being killed. Actually, I hope BNSF becomes more occupied with hauling oil than grain. Because over the past 4 years I have seen so many hopper haulers fail because of this. I hope that the grain becomes moved by the trucks again instead on rail or barge personally. And because of the increased rail transport the price to have your grain trucked has fallen so much it isn't funny. Those hoppers running up and down the road aren't called welfare wagons for nothing. It's true. Why go broke hauling grain at $0.12/bushel when you can go haul something else and actually pay your bills. That is why a lot of overflow is setting on the ground around my area, can't find the trucks to haul it becuase grain is too cheap to haul. Yes!! Ten thousand times, YES! Coming from the wife of a truck driver--who happens to pull a grain trailer...YES! We are lucky because my husband typically hauls food grade enough miles per week (NE to AR ) to make a little better money, but he's been stuck doing the "Elevator Grain Shuffle" the past 10 days or so. I'm gonna feel it when I have to do books and budget next week...
That has been going on for a long time - we had 26, walking floors, hoppers and end dumps. Feed was all we hauled - to lots and dairy farms.
You have ADM to thank for that - our motto was about ADM - Feed the World, starve the trucker.
We dead headed rather than haul for them. | |
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 Experienced Mouse Trapper
Posts: 3106
Location: North Dakota | RockinGR - 2016-11-23 12:02 PM Girls_Gotta_Jet - 2016-11-23 11:21 AM LMS - 2016-11-22 8:01 AM Bear - 2016-11-21 10:32 PM Is it true that Warren Buffet has a lot to gain financially if oil is continued to be transported by rail? Isn't BNSF rail owned by Berkshire Hathaway? Most oil is transported by rail. Why would Obama want to delay or block the development of these pipelines? Doesn't this make you want to follow the money? Your question is answered with a simple google search. I realize many things online are not true, however, if BNSF was less occupied with oil tankers our farmers could transport their grain much easier-I haven't been by too many elevators in ND that don't have a huge pile of grain sitting outside their elevators. Point being there is soooo many facets to this story and so much outside help to the protestors I think it would honestly make our heads spin-just how deeply rooted much of this unrest is! I sincerely hope that this is "resolved" without someone being killed. Actually, I hope BNSF becomes more occupied with hauling oil than grain. Because over the past 4 years I have seen so many hopper haulers fail because of this. I hope that the grain becomes moved by the trucks again instead on rail or barge personally. And because of the increased rail transport the price to have your grain trucked has fallen so much it isn't funny. Those hoppers running up and down the road aren't called welfare wagons for nothing. It's true. Why go broke hauling grain at $0.12/bushel when you can go haul something else and actually pay your bills. That is why a lot of overflow is setting on the ground around my area, can't find the trucks to haul it becuase grain is too cheap to haul. Yes!! Ten thousand times, YES! Coming from the wife of a truck driver--who happens to pull a grain trailer...YES! We are lucky because my husband typically hauls food grade enough miles per week (NE to AR ) to make a little better money, but he's been stuck doing the "Elevator Grain Shuffle" the past 10 days or so. I'm gonna feel it when I have to do books and budget next week...
My point in this respect is that hauling grain on trains is a heck of a lot safer than hauling oil on trains. BUT much cheaper too-which makes BNSF want to do everything they can to stop the pipeline.
I do hear regularly complaints about hauling prices from farmers around here-so there's a little bit of both sides of the story going on. | |
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 Born not Made
Posts: 2931
Location: North Dakota | I just would really like to get back to "life as usual".
Today there was more activity all over the city. One location that protesters were gathered were in front of a church .... that has a daycare in it .... that has ZERO to do with the pipeline.
It seems like more and more, the events organized by the protesters have less to actually do with stopping the pipeline. At this point, it needs to be stopped by stopping easements, permits, etc. Attempting to remove a road blockade of torched trucks (put there in the first place by protest activity) at 8:30 PM in the dark on a Sunday night doesn't do anything except escalate tensions.
I have a bad feeling that something "big" is going to happen tomorrow, on Thanksgiving. I hope I am wrong.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 507
Location: Lost in the corn of Iowa. | RockinGR - 2016-11-23 12:02 PM
Girls_Gotta_Jet - 2016-11-23 11:21 AM
LMS - 2016-11-22 8:01 AM Bear - 2016-11-21 10:32 PM Is it true that Warren Buffet has a lot to gain financially if oil is continued to be transported by rail? Isn't BNSF rail owned by Berkshire Hathaway? Most oil is transported by rail. Why would Obama want to delay or block the development of these pipelines? Doesn't this make you want to follow the money? Your question is answered with a simple google search. I realize many things online are not true, however, if BNSF was less occupied with oil tankers our farmers could transport their grain much easier-I haven't been by too many elevators in ND that don't have a huge pile of grain sitting outside their elevators. Point being there is soooo many facets to this story and so much outside help to the protestors I think it would honestly make our heads spin-just how deeply rooted much of this unrest is! I sincerely hope that this is "resolved" without someone being killed. Â
Actually, I hope BNSF becomes more occupied with hauling oil than grain. Because over the past 4 years I have seen so many hopper haulers fail because of this. I hope that the grain becomes moved by the trucks again instead on rail or barge personally. And because of the increased rail transport the price to have your grain trucked has fallen so much it isn't funny. Those hoppers running up and down the road aren't called welfare wagons for nothing. It's true. Why go broke hauling grain at $0.12/bushel when you can go haul something else and actually pay your bills. That is why a lot of overflow is setting on the ground around my area, can't find the trucks to haul it becuase grain is too cheap to haul.Â
Yes!! Ten thousand times, YES! Coming from the wife of a truck driver--who happens to pull a grain trailer...YES! We are lucky because my husband typically hauls food grade enough miles per week (NE to AR ) to make a little better money, but he's been stuck doing the "Elevator Grain Shuffle" the past 10 days or so. I'm gonna feel it when I have to do books and budget next week...
My husband gave up the hopper hauling for this very reason. He has switched over to hauling ammonia, nitrogen and aircraft de-icer and he loves it. We have no regrets, during the slow season he will pull a hopper just to have something to do and man he is one grumpy SOB when he's doing it. He has to work twice as hard to make half the money. And when he does the fill in work it's always the elevator shuffle. | |
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Veteran
Posts: 116
| And, yet . . . they leak. | |
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Expert
Posts: 1432
| r_beau - 2016-11-23 2:39 PM I just would really like to get back to "life as usual".
Today there was more activity all over the city. One location that protesters were gathered were in front of a church .... that has a daycare in it .... that has ZERO to do with the pipeline.
It seems like more and more, the events organized by the protesters have less to actually do with stopping the pipeline. At this point, it needs to be stopped by stopping easements, permits, etc. Attempting to remove a road blockade of torched trucks (put there in the first place by protest activity) at 8:30 PM in the dark on a Sunday night doesn't do anything except escalate tensions.
I have a bad feeling that something "big" is going to happen tomorrow, on Thanksgiving. I hope I am wrong.
Apparently, Jane Fonda is providing a turkey dinner for them. yay... not.. So maybe they'll behave for ONE day. They need to go home and stop this nonsense before somebody gets killed. I live on a Rez and am sick to death of hearing about it. | |
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 Nicknameless
Posts: 4565
Location: I can see the end of the world from here! | azsun - 2016-11-23 8:47 AM This is not true. There are requirements that must be met with regard to consultations with tribes. Public meetings do not meet those requirements. Therein lies one of the first problems. With regard to the water cannons, concussion bullets, etc. A woman from NY was severely injured an may need to have her arm amputated. If you want to watch and see what weapons the protestors had or did not have, whether there were fires or not, there are several videos on Facebook that are taken live. It's really a sad situation all the way around.
As sad as that is, the fact is, if you lay on the railroad tracks in front of an oncoming train...you will get squashed.
The protesters have an option, they can go home. The Leo's cannot.
This is part of the divide/conquer in America.
George Soros has made it very plain that his plan for a One World Order cannot be complete until State Sovereignty in the United States is abolished. Soros...he backs the Black Lives Matter, Occupy, Dump Trump, Democrats Untied...and NODAPL movements among others.
It is a game to him and the people are the pawns.
The amount of hate is building...especially against all white people.
All we can do is...resist! Do NOT fall for it.
Tribal lands are not sovereign nations...never have been, never will be. Furthermore, our federal gov't is not a sovereign nation...it's made up of sovereign states that form the Union. THIS is the issue.
Land 'ownership'.
The tribes receive monies from the fed...with neither being 'sovereign'...yet, they are creating issues throughout the west, in my back yard we're fighting a national monument, one that would give 5 different tribes 'co-managment', tribes that have no 'connection' to the 1.9 milliom acres the fed plans on stealing from the state of Utah.
Get educated...read the Federalist Papers, the Declaration of Indepence, our Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Then...assert your inalienable rights every chance you get and then some.
Stand up for the rights of the Natives to own their own land!!! INDIVIDUALLY. As citizens vs subjects.
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Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| I have read the federalist papers and the constitution, among other things ... including case law .. it's all required reading in law school. My over 20 years of legal practice is almost exclusively in the field of Indian law, so I have more than just a basic understanding. I think it's fair to say I'm very educated.
Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution states Congress has "the power to regulate Commerce with foreign nations and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes” In doing so, the US entered treaties with individuals tribes. There are treaties with this tribe and others that give them the right to certain things, including clean water, water rights, hunting and fishing rights, health care, education etc. These treaty rights continue to survive, even if the land isn't "tribal" (and regardless of whether one is sovereign or not.) They are called usufructory rights. There are also reserved rights. Both are guaranteed in perpetuity by the US. The US entered treaties with tribes to acquire land as the settlers were expanding needed across the land. These agreements are protected by Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution which states that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land. All of this eventually lead to the "meaningful consultation" requirement that was not completed in this situation. Not to mention the fact the ACE permits have not been issued. Similarly, if you had a property interest in a piece of land and the government wanted to put a highway right through your property, they would have to either get you to agree to grant an easement or they would have to take the land by eminent domain. They couldn't just start building the roadway. There is a process that must and should be followed. It's a basic tenant of the law called due process ... also guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. It requires, at it's basic core, meaningful notice and opportunity to respond.
The point is .. there should be no train ... the tracks should not have been put down without meaningful consultation. Several LEO agencies have gone home and refused to return or their home agencies have refused to return as the agency has concluded that any mutual aid agreement utilized to bring in LEOs was inappropriate in this situation. One ND Sheriff, Gary Schwartzenberger was removed from duty by the Governor of North Dakota for "harassment and intimidation" and "fostering a quasi-military environment" in working the DAPL site.
This is such a tragic situation, no matter what happens. Sadly, the result of miscommunication and misinformation - regardless of what happens.
Edited by azsun 2016-11-27 1:59 PM
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 Take a Picture
Posts: 12838
| OregonBR - 2016-11-23 12:19 PM
classicpotatochip - 2016-11-21 11:30 AM
First of all, if I didn't know about the years put into the surveys, assemblies, and thousands and thousands of man hours put into getting a project like this permitted, I might be against it.
Secondly, if I didn't know that this line parallels an existing line, I might be against it.
Thirdly, if I didn't know how an HDD (horizontal directional drill) works to pull the pipe 80-90 ft below the river bed, I might be against it.
Fourthly, if I didn't know a company's response to supe up environmental and construction standards in areas of contention, I might be against it.
Fifth, if I didn't know about the hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in third party professional inspectors during construction, who insure absolute and total compliance to every industry standard, along with landowner, county, state, and federal requirement, I might be against it.
Sixth, if I hadn't personally been present during HDD activity under rivers that are the drinking water source of several major US cities, I might be against it.
Seventh, if I hadn't read and watched interviews of local Native Anericans regarding the pipeline, who basically indicated they're not concerned and they're sick of the community upheaval, I might be against it.
Eighth: If I didn't know the huge budget of maintenance, corrosion professionals, and monitoring that goes on after the line is built, I might be against it. These lines aren't just left to their own devices to leak and pump product into the surrounding area. All the whistles and bells and flashing lights go off at any change in pressure, and the emergence shut down system takes over.
Stories like this aren't about a pipeline, they're about war on American oil. People that protest here against our industry are protesting against American regulation and American cleanup and spill management practices, which are absolute. People don't get that when we buy foreign oil, there's little to NO environmental requirement. The Middle East is fine with destroying major ecosystems, at the cost of water, plants, air, and wildlife, not to mention civilian and worker safety.
I'd rather drill and transport here at home, under heavy regulations and a more principled industry, then buy oil and gas from somewhere that probably did poison somebody to get it, with no chance of remedy.
Edited to add the eighth.
Classic, you know I totally agree. I have lived surrounded by pipelines my entire life. There is a defunct one in my front yard. I live at the end of a dead end road. At the other end (beginning) of the road there is a high pressure gas line. The operating company sends out info all the time about their safety procedures and how to voice concerns. I really don't worry about it too much. People who have never been around pipelines are the ones causing the fuss
Edited by streakysox 2016-11-27 10:34 PM
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 933
Location: north dakota | azsun - 2016-11-27 1:58 PM
I have read the federalist papers and the constitution, among other things ... including case law .. it's all required reading in law school. My over 20 years of legal practice is almost exclusively in the field of Indian law, so I have more than just a basic understanding. I think it's fair to say I'm very educated.
Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution states Congress has "the power to regulate Commerce with foreign nations and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes” In doing so, the US entered treaties with individuals tribes. There are treaties with this tribe and others that give them the right to certain things, including clean water, water rights, hunting and fishing rights, health care, education etc. These treaty rights continue to survive, even if the land isn't "tribal" (and regardless of whether one is sovereign or not.) They are called usufructory rights. There are also reserved rights. Both are guaranteed in perpetuity by the US. The US entered treaties with tribes to acquire land as the settlers were expanding needed across the land. These agreements are protected by Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution which states that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land. All of this eventually lead to the "meaningful consultation" requirement that was not completed in this situation. Not to mention the fact the ACE permits have not been issued. Similarly, if you had a property interest in a piece of land and the government wanted to put a highway right through your property, they would have to either get you to agree to grant an easement or they would have to take the land by eminent domain. They couldn't just start building the roadway. There is a process that must and should be followed. It's a basic tenant of the law called due process ... also guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. It requires, at it's basic core, meaningful notice and opportunity to respond.
The point is .. there should be no train ... the tracks should not have been put down without meaningful consultation. Several LEO agencies have gone home and refused to return or their home agencies have refused to return as the agency has concluded that any mutual aid agreement utilized to bring in LEOs was inappropriate in this situation. One ND Sheriff, Gary Schwartzenberger was removed from duty by the Governor of North Dakota for "harassment and intimidation" and "fostering a quasi-military environment" in working the DAPL site.
This is such a tragic situation, no matter what happens. Sadly, the result of miscommunication and misinformation - regardless of what happens.
The sheriff that was removed from duty was from a different part of the state and was removed for reasons that happened in his county and not with anything to due about the protest. He was there helping when authorities notified him.
http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/north-dakota/4136333-mckenzie...
Edited by ndcowgirl 2016-11-28 10:48 AM
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Location: Not Where I Want to Be | ndcowgirl - 2016-11-28 11:44 AM azsun - 2016-11-27 1:58 PM I have read the federalist papers and the constitution, among other things ... including case law .. it's all required reading in law school. My over 20 years of legal practice is almost exclusively in the field of Indian law, so I have more than just a basic understanding. I think it's fair to say I'm very educated. Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution states Congress has "the power to regulate Commerce with foreign nations and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes” In doing so, the US entered treaties with individuals tribes. There are treaties with this tribe and others that give them the right to certain things, including clean water, water rights, hunting and fishing rights, health care, education etc. These treaty rights continue to survive, even if the land isn't "tribal" (and regardless of whether one is sovereign or not.) They are called usufructory rights. There are also reserved rights. Both are guaranteed in perpetuity by the US. The US entered treaties with tribes to acquire land as the settlers were expanding needed across the land. These agreements are protected by Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution which states that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land. All of this eventually lead to the "meaningful consultation" requirement that was not completed in this situation. Not to mention the fact the ACE permits have not been issued. Similarly, if you had a property interest in a piece of land and the government wanted to put a highway right through your property, they would have to either get you to agree to grant an easement or they would have to take the land by eminent domain. They couldn't just start building the roadway. There is a process that must and should be followed. It's a basic tenant of the law called due process ... also guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. It requires, at it's basic core, meaningful notice and opportunity to respond. The point is .. there should be no train ... the tracks should not have been put down without meaningful consultation. Several LEO agencies have gone home and refused to return or their home agencies have refused to return as the agency has concluded that any mutual aid agreement utilized to bring in LEOs was inappropriate in this situation. One ND Sheriff, Gary Schwartzenberger was removed from duty by the Governor of North Dakota for "harassment and intimidation" and "fostering a quasi-military environment" in working the DAPL site. This is such a tragic situation, no matter what happens. Sadly, the result of miscommunication and misinformation - regardless of what happens. The sheriff that was removed from duty was from a different part of the state and was removed for reasons that happened in his county and not with anything to due about the protest. He was there helping when authorities notified him. http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/news/north-dakota/4136333-mckenzie...
there is no reason to cloud the agenda with facts.
Please stop doing so.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1079
| ITS SNOWING!! WHOOOP!! 
ND is NOT kind in the winter and for once I say bring it on. Those southerners will not know what hit them. Whatever motivation they have for being here will not matter anymore when it's 5 degrees with a 30 below windchill. Buh Bye.
I read a very interesting article today that asked the important question where is the outrage amongst all these tribes about true Native issues? Poverty? Suicide? Child neglect? Rapes? Obesity? Diabetes? Etc. Etc. Etc. The reservations are a FAR FAR FAR cry from a sanctity for life and protection of all things nature/water/etc.
I am sorry if this offends anyone but i am FROM ND AND LIVE ADJACENT to a Reservation. So, I've seen it. | |
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Porta Potty Pants
Posts: 2600
| star1218 - 2016-11-28 11:27 AM
ITS SNOWING!! WHOOOP!!   ND is NOT kind in the winter and for once I say bring it on. Those southerners will not know what hit them. Whatever motivation they have for being here will not matter anymore when it's 5 degrees with a 30 below windchill. Buh Bye.
I read a very interesting article today that asked the important question where is the outrage amongst all these tribes about true Native issues? Poverty? Suicide? Child neglect? Rapes? Obesity? Diabetes? Etc. Etc. Etc. The reservations are a FAR FAR FAR cry from a sanctity for life and protection of all things nature/water/etc.Â
I am sorry if this offends anyone but i am FROM ND AND LIVEÂ ADJACENT to a Reservation. So, I've seen it. Â
This is a very true statement. There is quite a bit of poverty and other terrible living conditions on the reservations. I honestly don't know if I personally would be able to live throughout the winter conditions there. But, I'm guessing only time will tell. | |
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 Straight Shooter
Posts: 5725
Location: SW North Dakota | I really have appreciated this thread. I don't know how to feel about the whole situation, other than frustrated. The "professional protestors" have made the big mess of it all- even Standing Rock agrees with that.
This is one of the most "grown-up" debates I've seen on the subject, and for that, THANKS! | |
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Folks on-line