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  Champ
Posts: 19623
   
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | She certainly used to. Her papers and research is where the current research started. I distinctly remember reading a portion of her research where she stated in no uncertain terms that there were 30+ separate gene based muscle myopathies.
I still like you too. And I get why you recommend ASOF to people. But there is no doubt in my mind that some of these industry leading stallions have genetic disorders. People need to be aware and not go into the breeding with their eyes closed. It's all a gamble. They are playing the lottery and it can lead to losing. I bred to a young grandson of ASOF who is Disco Jerry and Dash For Perks on the bottom. | |
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Champ
Posts: 19623
Location: Peg-Leg Julia Grimm | Whiteboy - 2019-01-22 12:15 PM
As far as a genetic component...Perhaps, and environmental factors might play into it as well.
You are correct. They absolutely do. Many people are managing their horses with diet and exercise designed just for the affected horse by educated guessing and tweeking. Since so far there is not enough scientific data and separation between the different genes. Different diets work better on some horses that don't work on others since sometimes they have more than one gene. The owner has to be creative and mesh different diets. Huge pain in the butt. But some still aren't useful or managed even with efforts of the owners.
However, in my mind, if the horse doesn't have the gene in the first place, it's less likely that normal animal maintenance will result in a muscle myopathy becoming symptomatic because the genetic component isn't there. 
Edited by OregonBR 2019-01-22 3:04 PM
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 Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Well, first off, I have around 19 horses enrolled in the EquiSeq studies through blood and I can say without a doubt that the genes that EquiSeq has discovered are inherited as I have several generations in the study.
On one line, I have 3 generations in the study as my mare Star who is N/PX and is the grandmother to my mare Shorty, my mare Chloe, my mare Boon, and a friend of mine's stud Gunner. 3 of those horses ended up being N/PX and one was negative for PX. Now, with Chloe and Gunner, their sire is in the study and he is negative for PX. On my mare Shorty, her sire isn't in the study but was tested through EquiSeq on hair DNA and he is negative for PX. Now, with Chloe, Shorty, Boon and Gunner, their dams are in the study and they are both N/PX.
I also had another mare in the study that tested out as N/P2. Both of her foals were negative for N/P2. Now, fast forward and I got my P8 results and that mare was N/P2 and N/P8 and while her foals were negative for P2, both of her foals ended up being N/P8. The one foal, his sire, my stud, is in the study and he is negative for P8.
So, I have definitely seen genetic inheritance.
Now, I'd like to also argue some of the points that were made here.
First off, the genes P2 and P3 that EquiSeq has discovered in our horses, the reason why EquiSeq found these genes so quickly is because they were already discovered in humans and the P2 gene is actually a gene found in humans that have been diagnosed with limb girdle muscular dystrophy and it is known, from human research, that it's a late onset when it comes to symptoms.
Now, the P3 gene is actually found in humans that have been diagnosed with MFM.
Now, what is interesting about the P4 gene is that it's been found in humans all the way down to fish, but they have only found the mutation of this amino acid in horses and they know because it is mutated and because it's in a particular region, it will cause a disruption in the make up of the proteins that form the MYOZ3 region of the genome.
Now, onto discussing Valberg verses EquiSeq. This is where things actually can get interesting. See, back in 2015, Paul Szauter with EquiSeq came onto the PSSM Forum and asked if people would be interested in being in research to find the gene(s) responsible for PSSM type 2. So, when he started his research he only wanted blood from horses who had been diagnosed as having PSSM, the non GYS1 mutation horses, or MFM through a muscle biopsy. Here in the US there is only two recognized muscle biopsy labs for horses and that is Dr Valberg's lab or Dr Valentine's lab. So, he started looking for the genes but the one clue that helped him find one of those genes was the fact that Dr Valberg has diagnosed a lady's mare for MFM, so EquiSeq did a complete genome on that horse and some others and started looking for the known human genes in our horses and very quickly, they had success.
What we all have to remember is that many times these are late onset genes and because of that, many times we don't see problems in our futurity horses but the ones that aren't super stars and are sold on, it's our non pros that start to experience the problems as the horses hit 5 to 6 on ones that are homozygous, or 8 to 10 years of age on heterozygous horses and they start dealing with unexplained lameness or behavioral issues or tying up.
Personally, because of what I've seen, especially test results, I know we have a mess ahead of us and we can either stick our heads in the sand or start recognizing things and work towards improving our barrel and racing industry.
Right now the folks that are getting rich off of us are the supplement industry and these folks touting these PEMF or Magnawave machines and our vets from doing a crap load of diagnosing and injections that generally don't make our horses 100% sound and many barrel horses are retired young because they can't hold up to the demands. | |
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 That's White "Man" to You
Posts: 5515
| Appygirl - were any of your horses that tested positive for the "genetic variants that predispose a horse" symptomatic? | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | Now, back to the original post on the mare.
Try to look at the publications that state the best crosses on certain bloodlines as that will help you in narrowing downs suitable stallion.
Next, like with your mare, she has the male side of FDD. So, you'd be best to look for a stallion that has the female side of FDD. That is all part of doing line breeding as they say that it will give you the male and female side of a particular horse.
Now, like with Dash Ta Fame, I've been told that we looking for a cross on something with his bloodline, you want to find a horse that has good feet and bone.
Also, look at your mare. I mean seriously look at her against the judging standard. Look at her weak points and strong points and look for a stallion who will improve her weak points. Any stallion that your interested in, look at the mares that he is bred to and see if he improves the mares or if the mares over ride him and the foals look more like their dams.
Like with my stud, I know that he'll shorten the back on any mare and give the foals good bone and feet.
Also, if this is an older stallion, see if he is still sound and if he is competing at an older age, that to me, gives him huge bonus points.
If you can, try to find out what folks think about his foals and their temperament and trainability.
Looking for a name brand stud only gets you so far and if the foal doesn't look awesome, you can spend all the money in the world and you won't see a return.
Also, if your looking at producing something that other breeders will want to add to their breeding herd, I'd stay away from the name brand horses and find other lines that are hit that will compliment those name brand horses.
What I mean by this is if everyone per say has Dash Ta Fame in their herd, the last thing they'll want is another DTF, it yet they may see Sun Frost as nice cross out for their horses and if you are producing that, you'll be able to sell it to folks.
Also, if you have a horse that's run top and bottom, a nice cross out might be some cow blood. Now, if you have run and cow, such as the case with your mare, if she isn't running a 1D, maybe look for a stud with all run. Now, like if she is running 1D but is bat **** crazy, maybe look for a cow bred stud with a vood mind.
Also, All Breed offers a hypo mating, so you can look at your potential cross and see how the pedigrees complement each other and stay away from just loading up a pedigree with one particular line. A perfect example is your halter horses or even your cutters. On halter you'll find multiple crosses to Impressive. On cutters, you'll find multiple crosses to Doc Olena and/or Peppy San Badger. From there, look at the foals a stud is producing.
Spending high dollar stud fees isn't where it's always at. Do your pedigree research and you might find some diamonds in the rough that might produce some top running foals. | |
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | All of my horses are 5 panel negative.
Now as far as seeing symptoms in the ones that tested out positive, yes, because I've been honest with myself about what I've seen.
The only gene that I can honestly say that I haven't seen what I would class as symptoms is the PX gene, hence the reason why I would be willing to breed my PX N/N mares to a stud that's N/PX or PX/PX.
Now, on my N/P2 ex junior stallion, he never cantered right as he would not extend real well on his hind legs at a canter and at 2, he had muscle twitching.
On my N/P2 and N/P8 mare, she was a very hard keeper and could lose weight on her hips overnight, plus she was lame and some days look okay and other days, 3 legged lame and I ended up having her euthanised due to lameness issues. Now, her two foals that are N/P8 are 3 and 5 this year and both are starting training, so we'll see.
On my N/P3 mare, she had lameness issues in her left hind stifle and no one could get to the bottom of it as 2 different vets had different ideas on why she was lame. She was euthanised at 15 because of her lameness issues.
On my N/P4 mare, for 7 years I was trying to figure out what was wrong with her. In 2010 my old vet checked her CK and AST and they were fine. We did xrays on her left hind fetlock and while she had some slight changes, it wasn't anything to cause problems. I had 4 chiros look at her along with 2 other vets and even had her back xrayed and could never seem to figure out why she was so moody under saddle. In 2017 I got her P4 results and finally felt that I had some answers for her behaviour. Her sire is negative for P4 so that means her dam has at least one copy of P4 and her dam had her same moody behaviour and so does her maternal half siblings as well. Fortunately I found her dam and messaged with her owner and EquiSeq agreed to put her and one of her sons in the study, so eventually we'll know if she is N/P4 or P4/P4. Right now that mare is being rode by my second cousin in law and because he is using her on cows, which she loves to do, she has done really well for him, but the other day, did come up lame in her hind end, so we'll see. Also, that mare at the age of 13 did tie up on me the one day as her skin was crawling from head to tail. That's the only time I'd ever seen that on her and I had owned her for 8+ years.
So far, everything that has come up clean for P2, P3 and P4 and now P8 and K1, they have been solid riding horses and have stayed sound except for maybe an occasional pulled tendon or ligament and I've ridden them into their teenage years. | |
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 Elite Veteran
Posts: 824
Location: Duvall, WA | appycowgirl wrote: <<
What we all have to remember is that many times these are late onset genes and because of that, many times we don't see problems in our futurity horses but the ones that aren't super stars and are sold on, it's our non pros that start to experience the problems as the horses hit 5 to 6 on ones that are homozygous, or 8 to 10 years of age on heterozygous horses and they start dealing with unexplained lameness or behavioral issues or tying up.
Personally, because of what I've seen, especially test results, I know we have a mess ahead of us and we can either stick our heads in the sand or start recognizing things and work towards improving our barrel and racing industry. . . many barrel horses are retired young because they can't hold up to the demands. >>
I agree with all of this. As a dog breeder, I watched old-time breeders do the same thing about all our new canine DNA tests--didn't believe them, not needed, etc. They just ended up years behind those of us who tried to use the new tools thoughtfully to produce better, healthier dogs.
The fact that PSSM often doesn't really cause problems until after a horse's futurity year throws a real wrench in things. Horses can be successful early and still end up with cripplingly painful, difficult lives as they mature. I try very hard to avoid "suspect" lines for just that reason, I hate PSSM and can see it a mile away in lots of horses. It sure would be easier if everyone would just test, share info and move towards eradicating these awful diseases. Dog people have. Our tests cost about $50 now, too, and high quality carrier dogs are still useful in breeding programs when bred to tested clear bi!@#es.
The inevitable can't be avoided by sticking our heads in the sand, believe me, accepting the newest research and tools and moving forward thoughtfully is the best road.
Edited by NipntuckLR 2019-01-22 5:14 PM
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Regular
Posts: 66
Location: Burns, WY | So very true on dogs.
I think the biggest takeaway in all of this, and I know it hard because it the stigmatism that was attached to any horse that didnt test out 5 panel clean is that, like you stated, these tests are tools to use when making breeding decisions. They aren't the only tools that we should use in making breeding choices either.
Like with my ex junior stallion, before I had gotten his P2 test results I was already considering cutting him after his second foal crop. His first ever foal was born windswept and the next year, one foal need two treatments of oxytet as she was too tight in her pasterns. Also, he had one retained testicle and I was already sitting on the fence and his P2 result just sealed his fate.
Now I'm sitting on another junior stallion that has tested out as P8. He also hasn't dropped either testicle but I've had folks tell me to be patient as some wont drop until 4. I already have plans to not breed him to anything until he is 4.
With both of these studs, while I didnt have the best results on the EquiSeq testing, to me there is many factors that need to go into our decisions and even with a heterozygous or homozygous stud, if all the other boxes are ticked, we can use them to eventually get negatives that won't set the industry back, but will eventually propel it forward with healthy horses. | |
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Location: in the ozone | Very good info here. It needs a post of it's own about PSSM so info isn't buried and more can learn. | |
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Tried and True
Posts: 21185
Location: Where I am happiest | Look into The Goodbye Lane. | |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 705
Location: Weatherford, TX | ThreeCorners - 2019-01-27 9:47 AM Look into The Goodbye Lane. LOVE The Goodbye Lane! My pick as a favorite Stud...for several years now.
However, the mare had DTF in her already and so I wasn't sure if she wanted it on both sides. I wouldn't mind, but wasn't sure if she would.
But love, love him.
Edited by Gator Bug 2019-01-27 9:56 AM
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 Neat Freak
Posts: 11216
Location: Wonderful Wyoming | Gator Bug - 2019-01-27 8:54 AM
ThreeCorners - 2019-01-27 9:47 AM Look into The Goodbye Lane. LOVE The Goodbye Lane! My pick as a favorite Stud...for several years now.
However, the mare had DTF in her already and so I wasn't sure if she wanted it on both sides. I wouldn't mind, but wasn't sure if she would.
But love, love him.
I could be wrong, but weren't the big winners at the Pink Buckle by The Goodbye Lane, out of mares that also went to DTF? | |
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 Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS |
Here's a pic of her
https://resizeimage.net/mypic/otahkT9l1CTlbsD9/REJM0/img_3076.jpg
Edited by slacy09 2019-01-27 4:19 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 705
Location: Weatherford, TX | wyoming barrel racer - 2019-01-27 2:24 PM Gator Bug - 2019-01-27 8:54 AM ThreeCorners - 2019-01-27 9:47 AM Look into The Goodbye Lane. LOVE The Goodbye Lane! My pick as a favorite Stud...for several years now.
However, the mare had DTF in her already and so I wasn't sure if she wanted it on both sides. I wouldn't mind, but wasn't sure if she would.
But love, love him. I could be wrong, but weren't the big winners at the Pink Buckle by The Goodbye Lane, out of mares that also went to DTF?
Yes, you are right.
I don't mind (and actually would like) that cross. I like a 'hotter' more determined, 'craving the turn' type of horse. We have had a couple DTFs and love them. But, they are not for everyone. I sure would not be opposed to that kind of cross at all. But, I just wasn't sure if the OP would be opposed to it.
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Zeal Queen
Posts: 3826
Location: TEXAS | ThreeCorners - 2019-01-27 9:47 AM
Look into The Goodbye Lane.
Looked him up! He looks nice!! | |
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